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Poison Weapon

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Comments

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511


    Given what you have posted, I still don't see why you think the Assassin and Blackguard should use the same Poison Weapon ability.

    Everything you said is true about how damaging it is, but it is also true that it is more damaging in the hands of a Blackguard than an Assassin, 99 times out of 100. The Blackguard is more likely to actually hit the target due to his far superior THAC0, and also can attack more often with the majority of weapons.

    What about an Assassin duel classed to fighter or mage though?

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited March 2016
    @Fardragon if you read my previous post you can see why that combo is not as broken as the Blackguard alone.

    @Dee what if we "nerf" Poison Weapon but we give the Assassin a "-1 save vs Poison Weapon" every X levels to make his poison harder to resist?

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    @SpaceInvader That's pretty close to what we're doing, actually. The beta builds should be updated sometime today if things go as planned; I encourage you to check it out when the update lands.

    Just a head's up: this next update to the Poison Weapon ability is going to be the last update to this ability before v2.0 goes "live". That doesn't mean it's going to stay that way forever--so feedback is still welcome--but it does mean that you won't see further updates to it in the next couple of weeks.

    Carry on!

    SpaceInvaderJuliusBorisovIchigoRXCmlnevese
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    @Dee cool!

    PS. May I ask you if you made the Legacy of Bhaal mode consistent?
    I actually really enjoyed it, until it lasted!
    Can't wait to check myself xD

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    From what I can tell the next update doesn't include any fixes for Legacy of Bhaal mode. But that doesn't mean those issues won't get fixed before release; we've still got a couple of weeks to fix issues.

    SpaceInvaderJuliusBorisovmlnevese
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577


    ...

    The popular opinion on this board seems to be (and I agree with it)
    Make the Blackguard use a lesser poison ability
    Nerf both abilities at low levels
    Keep the stacking

    And Don't Hardcode Anything!
    :)

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447


    ...

    The popular opinion on this board seems to be (and I agree with it)
    Make the Blackguard use a lesser poison ability
    Nerf both abilities at low levels
    Keep the stacking

    I don't know that "popular opinion" is accurate; based on what I'm seeing (both here and in the survey responses), the opinions are a lot more varied.

    Again, feedback is welcome, but let's keep it in the realm of facts.

    Girewan
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    edited March 2016
    People do not always have special insight into their true desires. But trust me: nobody wants the ability to be hardcoded regardless of what they think they want

    IchigoRXC
  • IchigoRXCIchigoRXC Member Posts: 1,001
    Pah, people and their "ideas"

    AdulmlneveseSpaceInvaderKamigoroshi
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    Dee said:

    People do not always have special insight into their true desires. But trust me: nobody wants the ability to be hardcoded regardless of what they think they want

    I was thinking we'd hardcode all the abilities from now on. It's generally more stable to put things directly into the code where they have access to the engine, versus putting them in crazy data files that can be manipulated by all kinds of silly people and their "ideas".

    (In all seriousness, though, I don't think we'll be hardcoding any changes to the Poison Weapon ability. It's generally better to leave things open to change.)
    I appreciate that. I figured that this was the case, but I'm a bit paranoid and obsessive by nature. Not too paranoid and obsessive, but just a little bit

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    IchigoRXC said:

    Pah, people and their "ideas"

    I feel the same. The whole wheel invention incident, for instant, still makes me grumpy after all these years. >>

    SpaceInvadermlneveseIchigoRXC
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    Fardragon said:


    Given what you have posted, I still don't see why you think the Assassin and Blackguard should use the same Poison Weapon ability.

    Everything you said is true about how damaging it is, but it is also true that it is more damaging in the hands of a Blackguard than an Assassin, 99 times out of 100. The Blackguard is more likely to actually hit the target due to his far superior THAC0, and also can attack more often with the majority of weapons.

    What about an Assassin duel classed to fighter or mage though?
    That is the only time an Assassin can come close to a Blackguard in terms of Poison Weapon damage output. Think about what it requires - to give up ever advancing as an Assassin again, which likely means no x6 or x7 backstab multiplier.

    In all other cases, the Blackguard will win in terms of damage output.

    Although there is one other option which allows an Assassin to deal pretty large damage with Poison Weapon.

    Dual him to mage, cast Improved Haste on yourself, use the Tuigan Bow, and then cast Timestop. Every hit is guaranteed and you do 6 hits per round. When time resumes, enemies take a lot of poison damage per second.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307
    Dee said:

    As helpful as that is, I'd like to hear people's feedback from actually using the Poison Weapon ability in its current state. Talking about numbers and how they've changed is well and good, but playtesting is more helpful.

    works great in bg:ee 2.0 as far as i'm concerned. still a very strong ability. you can still interrupt mages, you just need extra apr to make it reliable. ranged gives assassins better apr and is better for interrupting mages anyway so everything works like it used to, minus the cheese.

    i know that the nerf is substantial, but i can hardly notice the difference, frankly.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    What does the ability do right now in 2.0?

  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    I think it's nicely balanced for BG1. The nerf side of things will be more apparent in BG2 where it will be substantially weaker along with the fact that most enemies will make their saving throw. So as of now the assassin is a decent class for BG1 and perhaps SoD. But that's it unfortunately.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    But what does the ability do?

    I would like the exact numbers please.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,816
    The current description of the Poison Weapon (it's the same for Blackguards and Assassins):

    Gotural
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    So an assassin dualing below 5th level will have a completely useless ability for the second game, when the saves will be routinely made. That makes choice of when to dual an assassin that much more interesting. Dualing into fighter, you might want to dual low, to retain the fighter HP bonus, as without the Con bonus as well as lower hit dice, you are essentially getting only half-hp for each level. On the other hand, if you go all the way to 9th for some decent bonuses to the ability, you gain a broader range of thief skills, and should probably take 10th as well, as that is the one level where you will gain a HP benefit over fighter level, and it has no effect on your final level. The main downside to dualing at 10th is you need to hit 11th as a fighter before regaining the abilities, and that one level may be a notable downtime, requiring 750,000 xp total. That said, even if you dual at 9th, you will not get your assassin skills beck until shortly after Irenicus dungeon in BG2EE, and you will have to take on the whole of SoD as a straight low-level fighter, finishing at 9th rather than 10th, regardless of which level you dual at.

    I have not analysed the trade-off for other duals, as I focus on my darting dealers of death. While I liked the ability to dual meaningfully at 2nd, to get my gameplay running from the start, this is a much more nuanced approach that gives the player more meaningful options to consider. My one remaining with is the suggestion that came up earlier - rather than limiting the the victims to one poisoning per round (gaining a round of immunity with the save), give the assassin a fixed number of doses (suggested 5) that get used on their immediately following attached. If you have a high APR, you are likely to exhaust the supply in a single round, but improve your chances of actually poisoning your chosen victim at all.

  • PteranPteran Member Posts: 388
    I've yet to upgrade to 2.0 (reading these forums first "saved" me lol). But the new ability, while nerfed, doesn't seem too bad once you've got some levels under your belt. I'd say as long as higher level Assassins get some type of modifier to make their poison harder to resist (that's how it works with RR), then that should be fine.

    I also like the suggestion to give Blackguards and Assassins separate versions of Poison Weapon.

    Would I prefer to keep my pre-2.0 super poison? Heck yes! But I'll make it work with what I've got when I finally upgrade to 2.0.

    JuliusBorisovGozeta
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    The new ability looks terrifyingly bad, even with the boost from the previous version as I demonstrated that the maths were incorrect.

    Honestly it is now a waste of an aura as it lost everything it provided before, be it damage, disruption, role-playing aspect and so forth.

    I will explain it later in a bigger post but simply put, the ability has lost from 80 to 100% of its power across the saga.

    GejaSt. Andrew
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307
    @Gotural

    - it might look bad but if you try it out you'll see that in the corresponding chapters of the game it works just fine (i have played bg:ee); later on, in soa, you might feel the nerf but at least it doesn't look bad anymore (and it therefore probably also works okay)
    - it doesn't "waste an aura" because it's a completely untimed, instant ability

    looking forward to that bigger post and some detailed arguments

    illathidGreenWarlock
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