Now that I'm giving this another try in vanilla BG2, it seems like vBG2 Stoneskin protected against Poison Weapon.
Does anyone remember if it also protected against all on-hit effects? If so, why was this changed in the EEs? It doesn't seem like a very sensible change to me.
It was a bug fix that went a little too far in the other direction. The same is true of Mirror Image. I don't promise that either of them will end up being fixed in this update, but they're on the list to be re-examined.
Good to know. I think that should also be figured into how PW will eventually turn out to be, as restoring vanilla behavior there would no doubt make PW a lot less powerful against mages.
Now that I'm giving this another try in vanilla BG2, it seems like vBG2 Stoneskin protected against Poison Weapon.
Does anyone remember if it also protected against all on-hit effects? If so, why was this changed in the EEs? It doesn't seem like a very sensible change to me.
It was a bug fix that went a little too far in the other direction. The same is true of Mirror Image. I don't promise that either of them will end up being fixed in this update, but they're on the list to be re-examined.
Good to know. I think that should also be figured into how PW will eventually turn out to be, as restoring vanilla behavior there would no doubt make PW a lot less powerful against mages.
To be honest, we thought that was how it worked until we tested it out ourselves. So this has already been a part of our consideration when it comes to changing how this ability works.
Personally, I would change a number of other things about the Assassin kit too, to make them more competitive. I believe I've brought up those changes before in the discussions about the Shadowdancer (+1 backstab but cap it at level 13 just like the other thief kits, boost the skill points ever so slightly), but that's outside the purview of this particular decision.
But, if it can reliably disrupt mages... ...and there's no way to save against the ongoing damage/disruption... ...and mages aren't carrying/using antidotes like any moron would... ...and the poison ridiculously affects mages even when they are protected by mirror images and stoneskins (!!! )... ...then the ability is not just "useful," it is a win button. Might as well just turn on story mode.
Absolutely a fair point. One I can't wholly disagree with. I'm just saying, though, that the disruption is where the power of the assassin lies when it comes to this ability, not the damage. The actual damage caused is a secondary concern. By sticking that utility behind a save, it's seriously nerfing the assassin. The blackguard is hurt by it far less because it is not their primary (nearly only) ability.
The assassin was widely considered useless in vanilla because their poison didn't break stoneskin and it didn't do enough damage to be very relevant against most non-mage classes. And that was only if they could hit. They gave up all their thief utility in return for a crappy minor damage dealing ability and marginally higher backstab at high levels. They weren't a wizard slayer, but they were clearly on that end of the spectrum.
I just worry that this change is perhaps sending them back into that pit. I just don't see that a "save or else" ability is going to be enough for them, even if the save still includes a minor damage boost. I would support this change if it also included something else to make them interesting. Like I said, maybe a faster backstab progression, maybe more skill points, maybe another all new ability or spell-as-ability. Maybe give them limited (1 every 10 lvls?) castings of the poison spell. It's another save-or-else, but much higher damage. I actually think a change like this would make a much more interesting class overall, as you'd have some options rather than the previous "click poison and win" or the new "click poison and pray".
Here's a list of things that are currently in the game, have been there since vanilla BG2 (or ToB in some cases), and are arguably even more OP than Poison Weapon: - Time Stop + Shapechange (Mind Flayer) - Mislead + backstab - Cloudkill/Death Fog/Incendiary Cloud + the Staff of the Magi's invisibility effect - Robe of Vecna + Improved Alacrity + any other spell with a 4 second or less casting time
@Dee that's pretty much KR's Assassin. I give it x3 backstab at 1st lvl, but caps at x6 at 13th lvl (maybe a +1 multiplier via HLA) but while I give it a hide in shadow bonus to be sure he can perform his inteded role I think lower skill points per lvl should stay to differentiate it from a true thief who can master every thief skill.
Here's a list of things that are currently in the game, have been there since vanilla BG2 (or ToB in some cases), and are arguably even more OP than Poison Weapon: - Time Stop + Shapechange (Mind Flayer) - Mislead + backstab - Cloudkill/Death Fog/Incendiary Cloud + the Staff of the Magi's invisibility effect - Robe of Vecna + Improved Alacrity + any other spell with a 4 second or less casting time
@Dee that's pretty much KR's Assassin. I give it x3 backstab at 1st lvl, but caps at x6 at 13th lvl (maybe a +1 multiplier via HLA) but while I give it a hide in shadow bonus to be sure he can perform his inteded role I think lower skill points per lvl should stay to differentiate it from a true thief who can master every thief skill.
I would still put it less than the base Thief class, just not to the same degree. It's the difference between "master every thief skill" and "master every thief skill except one, so plan accordingly".
Since the topic of thief skills is being discussed, I would also like to point out that the assassin is further restricted in their thief utility than even their 15 points per level would suggest, because if they neglect the two hiding skills then they effectively lose their only non-poison ability, the backstab. And they're even further affected since the hiding skills really need more than 100 points each to be consistently effective. So what you get as an assassin is all of your points for 10 or so levels (though they don't necessarily need to be the first 10 levels) must go to hide/move silently if you want to benefit from one half of the class.
@Dee my idea instead was that that the True Thief can "master every thief skill", the Bounty Hunter can "master every thief skill except one" and the Assassin can "master every thief skill except two" or "spread his points a bit after mastering hide and move silently".
@antimatter3009 that's why I'm giving the Assassin a boost to hide and move silently, because more than any other thief they need to make it reliably asap. KR's True Thief will actually be behind the Assassin when it comes to that skill even if they both focus only on that.
@SirBatince we're getting off-topic here, thus I'll try to be short: - dual classing will always give you OP results, the mechanic itself is badly designed - I indirectly nerfed the Kensai-Mage by allowing single class Kensai to wear bracers and by making it unable to wear robes even after dualling (his fighting style cannot be practiced while wearing long robes with mantles and hoods). - I'm nerfing the Kensai-Thief by restricting Use Any Item only to Bards. In exchange KR's thief can use wands and scrolls at 1st lvl provided they meet certain INT requirements.
Personally, I would change a number of other things about the Assassin kit too, to make them more competitive. I believe I've brought up those changes before in the discussions about the Shadowdancer (+1 backstab but cap it at level 13 just like the other thief kits, boost the skill points ever so slightly), but that's outside the purview of this particular decision.
Good thinking! You guys should really make a mod with all these balance ideas.
The only issue I have with disallowing stacking, is that it should be consistent for all Poisons, either: - All Poisons don't stack with themselves, but do stack with other Poisons - No Poison stacks with any other Poison, but does stack with itself. - No two Poisons stack, newer replaces the old. - No two Poisons stack, older prevents the newer. - All Poisons stack.
It makes no sense to arbitrarily limit the player's poisoning ability when groups of spiders or wyverns can stack their poison as much as they want.
As for whether it stacked in the original game, is that not because of the engine bugs related to any effect that occurred at a set frequency(Poison, Disease, Use Eff on Condition, Regeneration) only applying whichever had the highest frequency?
As for Assassin/Blackguard: What about making Poison Weapon stronger when applied on a Backstab/Sneak Attack, either bypassing the per-round immunity, not allowing a saving throw, or just more damage?
@kjeron You might be on to something with the backstab thing. I know that something could be done with the poison using opcode 340 (backstab hit effect). I wouldn't mind if the poison used its old behavior on a backstab. Then again, an assassin's backstab is more likely to kill anyway, even without the poison.
@semiticgod may I ask why do you think the save should completely negate it? When I work on spells within SR I always find much harder to balance a save-or-else spell over something with at least a moderate effect even when saved. The former easily go from unappealing (if it doesn't trigger enough) to OP (if it does).
Consistency, as with normal D&D poison effects. Of course, if we wanted to make things truly realistic, and poison behaved the way it did in real life, the right poison would be a one-hit kill with no saving throw--dosage and body mass alone would determine survival.
The only issue I have with disallowing stacking, is that it should be consistent for all Poisons, either: - All Poisons don't stack with themselves, but do stack with other Poisons - No Poison stacks with any other Poison, but does stack with itself. - No two Poisons stack, newer replaces the old. - No two Poisons stack, older prevents the newer. - All Poisons stack.
It makes no sense to arbitrarily limit the player's poisoning ability when groups of spiders or wyverns can stack their poison as much as they want.
As for whether it stacked in the original game, is that not because of the engine bugs related to any effect that occurred at a set frequency(Poison, Disease, Use Eff on Condition, Regeneration) only applying whichever had the highest frequency?
As for Assassin/Blackguard: What about making Poison Weapon stronger when applied on a Backstab/Sneak Attack, either bypassing the per-round immunity, not allowing a saving throw, or just more damage?
Yeah, I agree that all poison abilities should work the same. And I like the idea of having some interaction between poison and backstab for the assassin.
If I were to have my perfect version of a 'balanced' poison weapon ability, I would focus on retaining its ability to disrupt, as that is the key feature I see here - a way to lock down mages by a non-caster, which becomes more important as the game progresses. I really have no interest in the damage-stacking feature, and am very happy to see that toned down, so for my own minority tastes, the ideal would be: Save completely resists that poison attack Failed save: if not currently poisoned, does an initial damage, and starts a tick-effect for regular bites if currently poisoned, reset the clock on when the poison started, but do NOT stack effects (possibly add a 1/2 effect initial damage, but not the full amount) after every round's worth of ticks, allow another save vs. poison to stop the clock
But most importantly, each attack/round requires a save. That is why a passed save has no effect. Plan b: as above, but an initial save still takes 1/2 damage, but immediately stops any existing poison ticking, as you have just passed a save - balance multiple attacks with multiple chances of starting ticking when saves are bad, vs. stopping ticks later in the game when opponents' saves are good.
There remains a matter of progression, where, due to the relative important of the ability to the kit, I feel that Assassin should progress their poison ability faster (let's arbitrarily say twice as fast) than the Blackguard.
As in original changes, higher level poison effects come with a penalty to save. At some point, I am sure you can teach the AI to have clerics memorizing slow/cure poison - and generally making foes aware of the Antidotes they may be carrying.
If 1st level Assassins would not be so underpowered otherwise, I would also suggest holding poison weapon back until level 3, so that a character dualing at the very earliest opportunity does not get the basic ability just for turning up. If Assassin were to start with an x2 backstab, for example, that would be flavorful, and sufficient to defer the PW ability (for me).
As for rebalancing in general - was anyone surprised when Totemic Druid summons started scaling from something much more feeble in BGEE than was the only options in BG2EE? I don't remember an issue with that, and by some strange circumstance, the scaling stopped at level 10 at exactly the old abilities, which is typically the level you would have playing from BGEE into BG2EE. I see rebalancing the poison weapon ability to be a necessary tweak on the same level as that, and it is interesting to see you looking more broadly to balance the ability to continue scaling, possibly more powerful in some ways, deeper into the game. Rewarding ongoing investment in the ability, rather than taking a cheap dual, seems like a good way forward to me, for all that I love my cheesy easy perks.
You guys seem to be making a huge assumption here, that limiting poison to 5x stacking will not be fun. As long as you can play an Assassin and feel like you're playing an assassin... does it matter whether it's 5x stacking or 10x stacking or 30x stacking?
I'm waiting to here from actual players to report that the kit is ruined. Like, new players who don't start out with preconceptions it an axe to grind. Compare with Wizard Slayers: right off the bat, the first time anyone played a WS (if they even bothered - I never did), they almost unanimously said it was not fun. I'd like to see whether you hear similar opinions expressed, to a similar degree, after this change. I suspect we won't - aside from vocal minority trying to make their voices heard as loudly as possible. (And for the vocal minority, I'm sure a mod will fix your problem.)
tl;dr I don't think Beamdog should sacrifice fun in the name of fairness. But if it's fun either way, then more fairness > less fairness.
This "vocal minority" is concerned with material changes to the way the game works being made willy-nilly.
Let me be completely frank about what I want BG:EE and BG2:EE to deliver The original BG experience Updated to run on modern platforms, including proper modern GPU support and custom resolution support With many bugfixes New content added But original content left as-is as much as possible
I'll be completely honest with you - I'm a powergamer and I like fights that are unfair in my favour. I don't cheat, but I'm not above using cheesy tactics. I paid full price for BG:EE, BG2:EE and IWD:EE, so I hope you'll pardon me if I want to play the games my way.
I like kicking ass. I like feeling like my character or party is awesomely powerful.
If I find out they start doing things like nerfing the Inquisitor's Dispel magic or the Robe of Vecna, I'll really start to dislike the game. "Balance" isn't what I want from BG:EE.
If you want to make the game harder, feel free to change the difficulty to Insane, use Legacy of Bhaal mode, or Sword Coast Stratagems. Or both Legacy of Bhaal and SCS. Whatever.
I just don't see the point of this content change right now. I don't see people complaining about it. Of the people in this thread, there have been some that agree with the change and some that disagree. The vocal minority, as you call it. Is this really a problem that needs to be fixed?
If you leave it alone (or make a minimal change if you really have to), people like me will be happy. Will people who want the change, be really miffed? I don't know.
I just don't see the point in making an unnecessary change like this which, in my opinion, is not guaranteed to make the game objectively better. This is why I say the time is best spent on bugs.
until now i didn't even know every attack would add the Poison and make it stack , so nothing lost here , its still a great tool for disturbing a Mage or Cleric and despite the Nerf i will Start a Assassin and prep it for SOD and a full Saga run.
my Question is "Target suffers 1 poison damage (no save) and 1 poison damage per 2 seconds for 12 seconds (save vs. death negates)." if the Target is Hit by the First dmg bit but not by the second is it then immune to the second for this round ? if the target is poisoned in round one and two will the poison then add up (in like 1st one ticks another 3 rounds and 2nd for 4 and so fourth) or will the first Damage over time one just be overwritten ?
and as for Blackguard , those guys are Nutters with or Without Poison , giving them the chance to add like 15 stacks in 3 Rounds is just Borderline silly. so hooray for that Balance
@DevardKrown When you make your saving throw, whether it's successful or not you get shielded (if that makes sense) from further Poison Weapon strikes for one round. If you fail in the first round and start taking poison damage every second, and then in the second round you fail your save against a second Poison Weapon strike, the poison effects will stack. So you can still get some really heavy damage, but no silliness like before.
@GreenWarlock In any case, I've started an Assassin of my own, wielding darts, to see what all the fuss is about. So far, no complaints.
@DevardKrown When you make your saving throw, whether it's successful or not you get shielded (if that makes sense) from further Poison Weapon strikes for one round. If you fail in the first round and start taking poison damage every second, and then in the second round you fail your save against a second Poison Weapon strike, the poison effects will stack. So you can still get some really heavy damage, but no silliness like before.
@GreenWarlock In any case, I've started an Assassin of my own, wielding darts, to see what all the fuss is about. So far, no complaints.
Neat , so you still get about 5-7~ rounds spell Hindrance on a single target , and if you are smart and swap targets after a hit you can even poison a second guy with multiple APR weapons. (aka Darts)
The "original BG experience" did not include Assassins or Blackguards in BG1, so it seems by your own logic you don't have a claim on anything that happens before SoA...
Perhaps I should have been more specific - BG2. I don't care about BG, I don't really like it.
I don't see why assassins and blackguards must use the same ability. In fact they shouldn't. One should have an ability properly balanced for a thief kit, and the other for a high THAC0 and APR paladin kit.
This.
All of this happened because of the Blackguard's inherently high ApR.
Just create a Blackguard Poison Weapon version and leave the Assassin alone.
All of this happened because of the Blackguard's inherently high ApR.
That's not true. I addressed this myth on the previous page. Here it is again:
Is this change being made just to accommodate enemies that use this ability?
No. Enemies using the ability made it clear that something needed to be done, but the Poison Weapon ability is something that we've been looking at for a long time. You can look back to the Shadowdancer's rebalancing discussions prior to 1.2 for discussions on that topic; we've been wanting it to scale with levels for at least that long.
Is this change being made just to accommodate the Blackguard kit?
Again, no. The Blackguard kit obviously offers up some additional power that synergizes with this ability in noticeable ways, but the ability itself was in need of a facelift. The ability has always been too powerful at pre-BGII levels, and even in BGII:EE the fact that it can stack makes it unusually potent.
Why is this change being made to Poison Weapon, and not other powerful abilities?
Poison Weapon is an exceptional case. The damage needs scaling, yes. But in many ways, the fact that it can stack multiple times per round is the bigger problem.
Take @GreenWarlock and his dart-wielding Assassin as an example: over five rounds, at three attacks per round, this one ability has the potential to stack fifteen times and inflict up to 450 damage to a single target. Without even considering the effect that poison has on spellcasters (not being able to cast spells for up to nine rounds), we're already looking at an ability that is more powerful than most 9th-level spells, that can reliably turn a difficult fight into a trivial one.
That's a big red flag, and that's before we start taking into account what you could do with it as a Blackguard. Whirlwind sets your APR to 10, which means that over five rounds, you can stack this ability up to fifty times, yielding a potential damage output of 1500 on a single target, in addition to the effect it has on spellcasting.
I can understand wanting to take a conservative view when it comes to changing classes and their abilities, but Poison Weapon is probably the wildest outlier on Baldur's Gate's power curve.
@Dee you are right, it is OP if you take it to BG1. It is also OP in combo with low thac0 and high ApR. But hardly for an Assassin, unless in a dual-class. Yet again, there are even more devastating combo with dual-classes.
I meant that this problem came with the EE. Which could have been solved by just nerfing the Blackguard's side and the BG:EE portion of the game.
As a result, an Assassin has a crippled version of his special ability.
I never heard players saying that their assassins were game-breaking in SoA/ToB. Even if, they just have to increase the game difficulty and/or install a mod to increase the challenge.
Sleep and Web are still much more powerful than Poison Weapon, are AoE effects and can be used by many more builds, many more times per day. I just don't get why Poison Weapon needs a nerf so badly.
The fact that it applies a damage over time effect leads to an illusion which makes it look like it stacks with itself but this is not how you must look at this ability.
Varscona deals 1 cold damage on hit, which bypass Stoneskin/Mirror Image as it's an elemental damage source. If you hit the same opponent multiple times in the same round, you will deal the elemental damage multiple times too.
The Flail of Ages does the same thing, except it deals more damage per hit. Everytime you hit the same opponent in the same round, you will deal elemental damage.
Both these weapons stack in the exact same way than Poison Weapon but because they deal their damage instantly, you are tricked into thinking that they don't.
Imagine for a moment that Poison Weapon would deal all of its damage instantly instead of over 6 seconds. It would deal 12 damage per hit. Suddenly no one would ever think that the effect stack while it would do the exact same thing than before.
Making Poison Weapon only able to hit someone once per round would be a very bad decision from both a gameplay and a roleplay point of view.
- from a roleplay PoV: If you ingest 50 ml of poison you are twice as dead than if you swallow only 25 ml.
- from a gameplay PoV: every other sources of elemental damage in the game, from creatures (Spiders), weapons (Flail of Ages), spells (Flame Blade), or even other kit abilities including those introduced in the EE like the Dark Moon Monk and the Sun Soul Monk (because yes, you can use these abilities then GWW and proceed to destroy a mage protected by both Stoneskin and Mirror Image in a few seconds) bypass Stoneskin/Mirror Image and stack. You hit the same target multiple times in the same round, your target suffers from the elemental damage multiple times aswell.
Something else to consider: do you really want to favorise spellcasters even more? Isn't Baldur's Gate already focused enough on Sorcerers, Kensai=>Mage and F/M/T? You created the Blackguard which is a good and very solid character during the whole saga, and I should know that as I recently completed an SCS No-Reload run with one. But it's not on the same level of power than a Sorcerer. You should be happy. You managed to design a kit powerful enough to be 'competitive' (such an horrible term for a single player game) with the best builds invented without outclassing them.
If you really want to reduce the power of the ability in the lower levels, simply do this:
Level 1: deals 1 damage per 2 seconds for 6 seconds (no save) + 1 damage every 4 seconds for 24 seconds on a failed save. This simply divide the damage by 4 without altering the utility of the ability.
Level 9 (impossible to reach by Blackguards in BG:EE but Assassins can which give them an edge): deals 1 damage per second for 6 seconds (no save) + 1 damage every 2 seconds for 24 seconds on a failed save. This simply divide the damage by 2.
Level 16 (very early for Assassins (approximately 1m3 xp from memory) and quite late for Blackguards (2m4): deals the original damage.
Simple, effective, and stay true to the original ability.
The fact that it applies a damage over time effect leads to an illusion which makes it look like it stacks with itself but this is not how you must look at this ability.
It's not an illusion. The poison does stack. If you get hit twice with it, you take two points of damage per second instead of one. (or more accurately, you take one point of damage per second, twice.)
There's also some fuzzy logic being employed here. If you apply all of Poison Weapon's damage instantly instead of over time, you still have an ability that adds +30 damage to your attack. In the current (1.3) implementation of the ability, that damage is applied every attack. That makes this ability several times more powerful than the bonus cold damage you get from wielding Varscona.
Everything else in your post is subjective so I'll leave it alone, but it's important to understand the mechanics fully when discussing them.
Comments
Personally, I would change a number of other things about the Assassin kit too, to make them more competitive. I believe I've brought up those changes before in the discussions about the Shadowdancer (+1 backstab but cap it at level 13 just like the other thief kits, boost the skill points ever so slightly), but that's outside the purview of this particular decision.
The assassin was widely considered useless in vanilla because their poison didn't break stoneskin and it didn't do enough damage to be very relevant against most non-mage classes. And that was only if they could hit. They gave up all their thief utility in return for a crappy minor damage dealing ability and marginally higher backstab at high levels. They weren't a wizard slayer, but they were clearly on that end of the spectrum.
I just worry that this change is perhaps sending them back into that pit. I just don't see that a "save or else" ability is going to be enough for them, even if the save still includes a minor damage boost. I would support this change if it also included something else to make them interesting. Like I said, maybe a faster backstab progression, maybe more skill points, maybe another all new ability or spell-as-ability. Maybe give them limited (1 every 10 lvls?) castings of the poison spell. It's another save-or-else, but much higher damage. I actually think a change like this would make a much more interesting class overall, as you'd have some options rather than the previous "click poison and win" or the new "click poison and pray".
@antimatter3009 that's why I'm giving the Assassin a boost to hide and move silently, because more than any other thief they need to make it reliably asap. KR's True Thief will actually be behind the Assassin when it comes to that skill even if they both focus only on that.
@SirBatince we're getting off-topic here, thus I'll try to be short:
- dual classing will always give you OP results, the mechanic itself is badly designed
- I indirectly nerfed the Kensai-Mage by allowing single class Kensai to wear bracers and by making it unable to wear robes even after dualling (his fighting style cannot be practiced while wearing long robes with mantles and hoods).
- I'm nerfing the Kensai-Thief by restricting Use Any Item only to Bards. In exchange KR's thief can use wands and scrolls at 1st lvl provided they meet certain INT requirements.
- All Poisons don't stack with themselves, but do stack with other Poisons
- No Poison stacks with any other Poison, but does stack with itself.
- No two Poisons stack, newer replaces the old.
- No two Poisons stack, older prevents the newer.
- All Poisons stack.
It makes no sense to arbitrarily limit the player's poisoning ability when groups of spiders or wyverns can stack their poison as much as they want.
As for whether it stacked in the original game, is that not because of the engine bugs related to any effect that occurred at a set frequency(Poison, Disease, Use Eff on Condition, Regeneration) only applying whichever had the highest frequency?
As for Assassin/Blackguard:
What about making Poison Weapon stronger when applied on a Backstab/Sneak Attack, either bypassing the per-round immunity, not allowing a saving throw, or just more damage?
You might be on to something with the backstab thing. I know that something could be done with the poison using opcode 340 (backstab hit effect). I wouldn't mind if the poison used its old behavior on a backstab. Then again, an assassin's backstab is more likely to kill anyway, even without the poison.
If I were to have my perfect version of a 'balanced' poison weapon ability, I would focus on retaining its ability to disrupt, as that is the key feature I see here - a way to lock down mages by a non-caster, which becomes more important as the game progresses. I really have no interest in the damage-stacking feature, and am very happy to see that toned down, so for my own minority tastes, the ideal would be:
Save completely resists that poison attack
Failed save:
if not currently poisoned, does an initial damage, and starts a tick-effect for regular bites
if currently poisoned, reset the clock on when the poison started, but do NOT stack effects
(possibly add a 1/2 effect initial damage, but not the full amount)
after every round's worth of ticks, allow another save vs. poison to stop the clock
But most importantly, each attack/round requires a save. That is why a passed save has no effect.
Plan b: as above, but an initial save still takes 1/2 damage, but immediately stops any existing poison ticking, as you have just passed a save - balance multiple attacks with multiple chances of starting ticking when saves are bad, vs. stopping ticks later in the game when opponents' saves are good.
There remains a matter of progression, where, due to the relative important of the ability to the kit, I feel that Assassin should progress their poison ability faster (let's arbitrarily say twice as fast) than the Blackguard.
As in original changes, higher level poison effects come with a penalty to save. At some point, I am sure you can teach the AI to have clerics memorizing slow/cure poison - and generally making foes aware of the Antidotes they may be carrying.
If 1st level Assassins would not be so underpowered otherwise, I would also suggest holding poison weapon back until level 3, so that a character dualing at the very earliest opportunity does not get the basic ability just for turning up. If Assassin were to start with an x2 backstab, for example, that would be flavorful, and sufficient to defer the PW ability (for me).
As for rebalancing in general - was anyone surprised when Totemic Druid summons started scaling from something much more feeble in BGEE than was the only options in BG2EE? I don't remember an issue with that, and by some strange circumstance, the scaling stopped at level 10 at exactly the old abilities, which is typically the level you would have playing from BGEE into BG2EE. I see rebalancing the poison weapon ability to be a necessary tweak on the same level as that, and it is interesting to see you looking more broadly to balance the ability to continue scaling, possibly more powerful in some ways, deeper into the game. Rewarding ongoing investment in the ability, rather than taking a cheap dual, seems like a good way forward to me, for all that I love my cheesy easy perks.
Let me be completely frank about what I want BG:EE and BG2:EE to deliver
The original BG experience
Updated to run on modern platforms, including proper modern GPU support and custom resolution support
With many bugfixes
New content added
But original content left as-is as much as possible
I'll be completely honest with you - I'm a powergamer and I like fights that are unfair in my favour. I don't cheat, but I'm not above using cheesy tactics. I paid full price for BG:EE, BG2:EE and IWD:EE, so I hope you'll pardon me if I want to play the games my way.
I like kicking ass. I like feeling like my character or party is awesomely powerful.
If I find out they start doing things like nerfing the Inquisitor's Dispel magic or the Robe of Vecna, I'll really start to dislike the game. "Balance" isn't what I want from BG:EE.
If you want to make the game harder, feel free to change the difficulty to Insane, use Legacy of Bhaal mode, or Sword Coast Stratagems. Or both Legacy of Bhaal and SCS. Whatever.
I just don't see the point of this content change right now. I don't see people complaining about it. Of the people in this thread, there have been some that agree with the change and some that disagree. The vocal minority, as you call it. Is this really a problem that needs to be fixed?
If you leave it alone (or make a minimal change if you really have to), people like me will be happy. Will people who want the change, be really miffed? I don't know.
I just don't see the point in making an unnecessary change like this which, in my opinion, is not guaranteed to make the game objectively better. This is why I say the time is best spent on bugs.
I would like to see it in Tweaks Anthology if it's not a problem
my Question is
"Target suffers 1 poison damage (no save) and 1 poison damage per 2 seconds for 12 seconds (save vs. death negates)."
if the Target is Hit by the First dmg bit but not by the second is it then immune to the second for this round ?
if the target is poisoned in round one and two will the poison then add up (in like 1st one ticks another 3 rounds and 2nd for 4 and so fourth) or will the first Damage over time one just be overwritten ?
and as for Blackguard , those guys are Nutters with or Without Poison , giving them the chance to add like 15 stacks in 3 Rounds is just Borderline silly. so hooray for that Balance
@GreenWarlock In any case, I've started an Assassin of my own, wielding darts, to see what all the fuss is about. So far, no complaints.
All of this happened because of the Blackguard's inherently high ApR.
Just create a Blackguard Poison Weapon version and leave the Assassin alone.
It is also OP in combo with low thac0 and high ApR. But hardly for an Assassin, unless in a dual-class.
Yet again, there are even more devastating combo with dual-classes.
I meant that this problem came with the EE.
Which could have been solved by just nerfing the Blackguard's side and the BG:EE portion of the game.
As a result, an Assassin has a crippled version of his special ability.
I never heard players saying that their assassins were game-breaking in SoA/ToB. Even if, they just have to increase the game difficulty and/or install a mod to increase the challenge.
That's my point of view anyway.
The fact that it applies a damage over time effect leads to an illusion which makes it look like it stacks with itself but this is not how you must look at this ability.
Varscona deals 1 cold damage on hit, which bypass Stoneskin/Mirror Image as it's an elemental damage source. If you hit the same opponent multiple times in the same round, you will deal the elemental damage multiple times too.
The Flail of Ages does the same thing, except it deals more damage per hit. Everytime you hit the same opponent in the same round, you will deal elemental damage.
Both these weapons stack in the exact same way than Poison Weapon but because they deal their damage instantly, you are tricked into thinking that they don't.
Imagine for a moment that Poison Weapon would deal all of its damage instantly instead of over 6 seconds. It would deal 12 damage per hit.
Suddenly no one would ever think that the effect stack while it would do the exact same thing than before.
Making Poison Weapon only able to hit someone once per round would be a very bad decision from both a gameplay and a roleplay point of view.
- from a roleplay PoV: If you ingest 50 ml of poison you are twice as dead than if you swallow only 25 ml.
- from a gameplay PoV: every other sources of elemental damage in the game, from creatures (Spiders), weapons (Flail of Ages), spells (Flame Blade), or even other kit abilities including those introduced in the EE like the Dark Moon Monk and the Sun Soul Monk (because yes, you can use these abilities then GWW and proceed to destroy a mage protected by both Stoneskin and Mirror Image in a few seconds) bypass Stoneskin/Mirror Image and stack. You hit the same target multiple times in the same round, your target suffers from the elemental damage multiple times aswell.
Something else to consider: do you really want to favorise spellcasters even more? Isn't Baldur's Gate already focused enough on Sorcerers, Kensai=>Mage and F/M/T?
You created the Blackguard which is a good and very solid character during the whole saga, and I should know that as I recently completed an SCS No-Reload run with one. But it's not on the same level of power than a Sorcerer.
You should be happy. You managed to design a kit powerful enough to be 'competitive' (such an horrible term for a single player game) with the best builds invented without outclassing them.
If you really want to reduce the power of the ability in the lower levels, simply do this:
Level 1: deals 1 damage per 2 seconds for 6 seconds (no save) + 1 damage every 4 seconds for 24 seconds on a failed save. This simply divide the damage by 4 without altering the utility of the ability.
Level 9 (impossible to reach by Blackguards in BG:EE but Assassins can which give them an edge): deals 1 damage per second for 6 seconds (no save) + 1 damage every 2 seconds for 24 seconds on a failed save. This simply divide the damage by 2.
Level 16 (very early for Assassins (approximately 1m3 xp from memory) and quite late for Blackguards (2m4): deals the original damage.
Simple, effective, and stay true to the original ability.
There's also some fuzzy logic being employed here. If you apply all of Poison Weapon's damage instantly instead of over time, you still have an ability that adds +30 damage to your attack. In the current (1.3) implementation of the ability, that damage is applied every attack. That makes this ability several times more powerful than the bonus cold damage you get from wielding Varscona.
Everything else in your post is subjective so I'll leave it alone, but it's important to understand the mechanics fully when discussing them.