What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
I'd never heard the name Minsc, or Dynaheir, or Mulahay, or Tazzok, or Anomen, or Viconia, and so forth. Even when characters are from different races, different regions, and would have in-world reasons to be unfamiliar with names, such as when various NPCs have to explain basic things about their culture to the little shut-in PC, it doesn't come up a whole lot. Yoshimo seems a pretty unusual name coming from a region with dudes like Berrun Ghastkill, Greywolf, and Neeber.
So, I think it's kinda up in the air about the whole name thing. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and honestly the name doesn't even strike me as a combination of different languages as described (given the sample names of the different core races in D&D material I've read).
And if it were, why not make the name a bit longer (so it seems plausible) and allow characters a few different options to notice that part of the name is a language they're familiar with, such as spotting the elven in the name but not recognizing the rest, or the dwarven in the name, etc? Y'know, actually play around with the idea a bit?
What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
I'd never heard the name Minsc, or Dynaheir, or Mulahay, or Tazzok, or Anomen, or Viconia, and so forth. Even when characters are from different races, different regions, and would have in-world reasons to be unfamiliar with names, such as when various NPCs have to explain basic things about their culture to the little shut-in PC, it doesn't come up a whole lot. Yoshimo seems a pretty unusual name coming from a region with dudes like Berrun Ghastkill, Greywolf, and Neeber.
So, I think it's kinda up in the air about the whole name thing. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and honestly the name doesn't even strike me as a combination of different languages as described (given the sample names of the different core races in D&D material I've read).
And if it were, why not make the name a bit longer (so it seems plausible) and allow characters a few different options to notice that part of the name is a language they're familiar with, such as spotting the elven in the name but not recognizing the rest, or the dwarven in the name, etc? Y'know, actually play around with the idea a bit?
I actually really like this idea, and is a good example of where the character can be improved. Based on your race, you pick up a part of her name which comes from your culture. You ask her about it and she provides her explanation. That works really well. I hope beamdog reads your post, as it deserves to be used.
Original characters weren't altered for an agenda (seriously, leave them the hell alone, write some new characters that the player can optionally pick up if they don't like the old ones, it's not that hard).
SJW commentary hadn't been brought into it (Bob Newhart isn't even on the same level, and anyone who can't see why a reference to an old TV Show would be less offensive than direct politcal poking really needs to work on some things).
Amber Scott didn't essentially tell fans their beloved game and its characters were full of regressive sexist ideas and if they didn't like the changes "tough" (seriously, wtf lady?).
Then Mizhena wouldn't be getting the crap she is now. Mizhena comes across to many as a tool of the regressive left, making her something very dirty. All of this could have been avoided. But, as I expected, being tied to the machinations of those with an agenda means being associated with that agenda, which is bad for us.
Because to a lot of people, Mizhena doesn't come off as a nod towards inclusion, or a particularly deep character, or even just a character with a simple quirk that makes her more interesting to those paying attention (Juhani from KotoR hits all of these marks a lot better). Things that, very likely, only the conspiracy theorist types would worry about. But it is not tinfoil hat types that are upset about these things, and accusing them of such isn't helping anyone.
I'm hoping that they add a bit more depth to Mizhena, clean up the dialog, add a few more options, swat the bugs (and for goodness' sakes, we need the Steam version to not break mods), and FFS get their house in order.
Unfortunately, this is how the human mind works. If you're aware of it (and most aren't), you can avoid these pitfalls, but human beings are not entirely rational, nor do they regularly think too deeply into things.
It doesn't require deep thinking. If someone didn't do something, you don't hold them responsible, and you don't attack them for it. The human mind is capable of drawing this very simple conclusion. Will people sometimes ignore it? Yes. Is that an excuse? No.
Unfortunately, this is how the human mind works. If you're aware of it (and most aren't), you can avoid these pitfalls, but human beings are not entirely rational, nor do they regularly think too deeply into things.
It doesn't require deep thinking. If someone didn't do something, you don't hold them responsible, and you don't attack them for it. The human mind is capable of drawing this very simple conclusion. Will people sometimes ignore it? Yes. Is that an excuse? No.
So aside from trying to assume the moral high ground, I guess you have nothing else to say?
This isn't about morality. It's about the fact that those who represent us set the precedent for how others think of us, because that's how the brain works. Some people are aware enough to immediately recognize that even if you happen to get a few bad apples out of the bunch, those apples might not represent the average apple, even if you happened to get unlucky enough to get a few in a row. Many people, however, will simply avoid apples.
And again, if not surrounded and entangled with the other BS, Mizhena may have just been written off as a character. However, there are indeed a lot of people using trans people to push an agenda, and there are a lot of whiny teenage tumblr idiots giving us a bad public representation, making people assume we're ****ing morons rather than just people with a condition.
Original characters weren't altered for an agenda (seriously, leave them the hell alone, write some new characters that the player can optionally pick up if they don't like the old ones, it's not that hard).
Oh poor dear, It is rather hard not to drastically change a character that isn't much of a character in the first place. The people claiming that Jaheira and especially Safana were deeply profound characters in BG1 are sadly fooling themselves.
Jaheira only became a character in BG2 after the loss of Khalid and Safana was nobody beyond 'companion who speaks sultry and snarky' in BG1 and 'former companion who tries to backstab you' in BG2. So really what 'alteration'?
SJW commentary hadn't been brought into it (Bob Newhart isn't even on the same level, and anyone who can't see why a reference to an old TV Show would be less offensive than direct politcal poking really needs to work on some things). Amber Scott didn't essentially tell fans their beloved game and its characters were full of regressive sexist ideas and if they didn't like the changes "tough" (seriously, wtf lady?).
Meh, these days 'SJW' seems to mean 'having reasonable ideas that nonetheless trigger some constantly angry people for some reason' You would think that people claiming to be for the freedom of speech would simply respect other people using theirs even if it is to make fun of them... But apparently some people cannot bear being made fun of.
Then Mizhena wouldn't be getting the crap she is now. Mizhena comes across to many as a tool of the regressive left, making her something very dirty. All of this could have been avoided. But, as I expected, being tied to the machinations of those with an agenda means being associated with that agenda, which is bad for us.
It is now part of a 'regressive left' (whatever that is) 'agenda' to have a transgender character simply being there? Do tell what is 'regressive', 'left' and the 'machination' of a trans character existing with the setting not making a big deal about it...
I think i'll stop read any message that contains the terms "sjw", "gg" or "agenda" from now. I'm a bit sad for this observation but ... seems like i have put a lot of hope on finally totaly useless conversation.
What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
I'd never heard the name Minsc, or Dynaheir, or Mulahay, or Tazzok, or Anomen, or Viconia, and so forth. Even when characters are from different races, different regions, and would have in-world reasons to be unfamiliar with names, such as when various NPCs have to explain basic things about their culture to the little shut-in PC, it doesn't come up a whole lot. Yoshimo seems a pretty unusual name coming from a region with dudes like Berrun Ghastkill, Greywolf, and Neeber.
So, I think it's kinda up in the air about the whole name thing. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and honestly the name doesn't even strike me as a combination of different languages as described (given the sample names of the different core races in D&D material I've read).
And if it were, why not make the name a bit longer (so it seems plausible) and allow characters a few different options to notice that part of the name is a language they're familiar with, such as spotting the elven in the name but not recognizing the rest, or the dwarven in the name, etc? Y'know, actually play around with the idea a bit?
I actually really like this idea, and is a good example of where the character can be improved. Based on your race, you pick up a part of her name which comes from your culture. You ask her about it and she provides her explanation. That works really well. I hope beamdog reads your post, as it deserves to be used.
In my personal experience (stemming from an interest in psychology, human interaction, character development, and other things that aren't important to most people), circumstances define a character, but rarely do they (or should they) define the character as a circumstance; and if there is a unique character quirk (such as having a name composed from a variety of different languages for its symbolic purpose) then that should be a feature that can be interacted with because it's an interesting feature that can help define the character.
Put another way, we are all the sum total of our experiences, circumstances, and ideas, but we are not an experience, circumstance, or an idea (unless your name is V, I guess). People, and good characters, are a massive amalgam of traits and experiences that create the synergy of the character themselves.
Gaming, both electronic and tabletop, is one of the most welcoming places for us as far as communities are concerned, even moreso than most LGBT communities I tried to interact with (which are often exceedingly toxic, self entitled, preachy, and petty; though your mileage may vary).
Well, yeah, tabletop gaming is the bottomless pit beneath the hole at the bottom of the barrel. Who the hell are they to turn anyone away.
I recommend Frostgrave for some old-school tabletop adventuring.
I think i'll stop read any message that contains the terms "sjw", "gg" or "agenda" from now. I'm a bit sad for this observation but ... seems like i have put a lot of hope on finally totaly useless conversation.
Yeah. I'd add "regressive left" and "virtue signalling" to that list.
So aside from trying to assume the moral high ground, I guess you have nothing else to say?
Recall that I was initially responding to Mephiston, who was determined to place all the blame on those who (supposedly) invited backlash against trans people and none on the actual perpetrators of the backlash.
I've seen as many trans people support Mizhena as condemn her. It's not for me to say how it affected them. But regardless of Beamdog's actions, those who succumb to their knee-jerk reaction and take their frustration out on the trans community are also at fault, and I do not agree with letting it pass just because "that's how the brain works." Everything anybody does is because that's how their brain works. It doesn't absolve them from criticism. Hold the burglar accountable, not just the guy who left your door open.
What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
In this case it's not really roleplay, since it is somewhat forced that Mizhena is an unusual name to Charname. Most of the names are strange to us, so perhaps Mizhena could be a strange name for the region, but no such reason is ever given.
Joluv is a weird name too, be we aren't prompted to ask about his name when purchasing the Defender of Easthaven +3.
CHARNAME isn't from Amn, and Joluv is from even farther away. An unfamiliar name wouldn't be surprising in that context. This is an extra-ridiculous new excuse to complain about Mizhena, and it's obvious that no one is actually interested in having the question answered, so I'm going to stop talking about it.
It wasn't really a complaint about the character, and I don't give two gnolls about Mizhena, one way or the other. I just think it's factually incorrect that there was true roleplay there, since (if memory serves), the only option in order to continue down the dialogue node was to state that Mizhena was an unusual name (or whatever the exact line was). If you want to pretend that your character thinks the same way, that is fine, but it wasn't really based upon the player's decision. It would be if there were options like:
"Mizhena...such a pretty name. Is it Zhentish?" "Mizhena? With a name like that, no wonder you became a priest of Tempus." "I knew a Mizhena once. She used to hunt rats with me back in Candlekeep." "My name is Mizhena too! We should be best friends!" "Graaaaagh! Me smash!"
Obviously, there are going to be limitations as to the sort of options that can be selected, but the fact is that the game forces your character to think that the name is unusual. It's not the end of the world, but it is what it is, and frankly, Mizhena sounds more normal than a lot of the names within the game, but I'm not from the area to begin with.
Put another way, we are all the sum total of our experiences, circumstances, and ideas, but we are not an experience, circumstance, or an idea (unless your name is V, I guess). People, and good characters, are a massive amalgam of traits and experiences that create the synergy of the character themselves.
I think this is one of the reasons I really disliked the characters in Wrath of the Righteous, who I later (like in the past week) found out were also written by Amber Scott. When reading the material about Tirablade, the fact she was transgendered is the driving theme of pretty much everything that she does, with anything else surrounding the character being mere notes on the map.
She's even described as avoiding making friends as a small child "because he felt awkward in his skin". What follows is a story about how he was then raised as a girl for 6 years by a priestess of Desna, then leaves them forever, falls into a trap, gets rescued by a half-orc Paladin and both of them fall in love with each other on the way back to town (I **** you not, on the way back to town), and she reveals to the half-orc Paladin that even though she's been living half her life as a woman (and still is), she's actually male, and that it simply didn't matter since Irabeth (the Paladin) "had learned to value a companion's personality over appearance"; it then immediately notes the Paladin spends most of her wealth and pawns off her family sword to buy Tirablade an elixir to change her sex; then soon married. She then is described as doing menial work around a temple except when she occasionally does rogue stuff which makes her wife worry.
Her wife, the half-orc Paladin Irabeth's bio is notably shorter. Her father was an orc with saintly levels of level headed peacefulness, had a farm, they put up with bigots, she decided she had a calling to be a Paladin, traveled to a city and did well in a knightly order, but failed to become a knight because racism, then met Tirablade, they fell in love on the way back to the city, she saw through Tirablade's clever disguise (like Chuck Norris) and chalked it up to simple appearance and knowing "not to judge by appearances alone". She then pawns her sword, gives the elixir, feels more complete for having helped Tirablade by sacrificing her family sword, and that's pretty much the end.
At least Tirablade also has a few character qualities like her being prone to upsetting people because she's blunt and will say whatever she likes, or being pretty free spirited. However, when I was reading it, even I couldn't help but to get the impression that what I was reading was a little too bad in some places, a little too good in other places, and felt really gimmicky. Truly, it was the love at first hike nonbinary lesbian interracial romance I didn't know I had been waiting for!
Making it all the more awkward, is that the transgendered character who grew up friendless and introverted actually has an above-average Charisma score is a social savant based on her statblock.
Meh, these days 'SJW' seems to mean 'having reasonable ideas that nonetheless trigger some constantly angry people for some reason' You would think that people claiming to be for the freedom of speech would simply respect other people using theirs even if it is to make fun of them... But apparently some people cannot bear being made fun of.
I don't think that anyone here has challenged your right to say whatever you like. I certainly haven't. In fact, I haven't seen any fans challenge Beamdog's right to say anything they like, merely that they have made it abundantly clear that they don't want political propaganda in their Baldur's Gate and if Beamdog doesn't want their business, they don't have to have it.
And calling people things like transphobes, trolls, bigots, racists, and things of that nature isn't making fun of, it's just insulting. I'd also like to point out that it's also wholly wrong in most cases, and not in a moral sense, but wrong in the sense that folks like me are implied to be transphobic or being unable to handle a game with a transgendered character in it, when I'm ****ing transgendered.
But, you have the right to say what you want. I will, however, ask that you back it up.
It is now part of a 'regressive left' (whatever that is) 'agenda' to have a transgender character simply being there? Do tell what is 'regressive', 'left' and the 'machination' of a trans character existing with the setting not making a big deal about it...
I would define the regressive left as a movement that, intentionally or not, is pushing towards a regression in civil liberties, creating greater divisions between race, gender, social class, policing language, denouncing free speech as unacceptable if it's offensive, trying to monitor and police the interests of others on grounds of political correctness, in much the same way the religious right have been guilty of doing for a very long time. People that distinctly make things like race and sex an issue when it doesn't and shouldn't be. Most of it is related to modern feminist theory.
Today have groups going after things like Bayonetta and Dead or Alive, in much the same way people used to go after Mortal Kombat and Doom. Once you've seen the face of evil before, you remember it, even if it's wearing a different suit today. While I don't agree that Amber Scott is necessarily evil, the mindset of control and oppression certainly is.
And, though I don't consider myself a member of GamerGate (though honestly, I find myself having greater leanings in that direction the more these conversations continue), it would be dishonest for me to say that I didn't think that the ethics and integrity in gaming journalism (or hell, most all journalism these days) weren't absolute s***.
Sargon of Akkad has a video that explains this concept in greater detail and the problems that exist within. It's a good video and it's worth watching even if you're not involved in the tug of war between SJWs and GGers.
I think i'll stop read any message that contains the terms "sjw", "gg" or "agenda" from now. I'm a bit sad for this observation but ... seems like i have put a lot of hope on finally totaly useless conversation.
Oh poor dear, It is rather hard not to drastically change a character that isn't much of a character in the first place. The people claiming that Jaheira and especially Safana were deeply profound characters in BG1 are sadly fooling themselves.
Patronizing aside, neither was Minsc. That doesn't stop them from being beloved. Minsc, aside from being quite colorful and often humorously vocal in BG II, was far from profound. Much of his existence was light hearted, and he was also one of the few joinable NPCs who had no personal sidequests.
Oh poor dear, It is rather hard not to drastically change a character that isn't much of a character in the first place. The people claiming that Jaheira and especially Safana were deeply profound characters in BG1 are sadly fooling themselves.
Patronizing aside, neither was Minsc. That doesn't stop them from being beloved. Minsc, aside from being quite colorful and often humorously vocal in BG II, was far from profound. Much of his existence was light hearted, and he was also one of the few joinable NPCs who had no personal sidequests.
No characters in BG1 were deeply profound. None of them even have any personalities to speak of.
Also I never take him in BG1 except for that quest (800xp and the cha tome is that way). He has an opening dialogue (where he will kill you for refusing to help) and selection sounds. No humor, no banter, nothing funny. Just that.
BG2 though he is amazing to have. Because he is more than an empty shell. He is the Minsc I know and love. Without BG2 he wouldn't be memorable for me.
The only BG1 character I always have is Yeslick, because I'm that starved for a good aligned dwarf npc.
The only BG1 npcs with any personality are the EE ones.
What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
In this case it's not really roleplay, since it is somewhat forced that Mizhena is an unusual name to Charname. Most of the names are strange to us, so perhaps Mizhena could be a strange name for the region, but no such reason is ever given.
Joluv is a weird name too, be we aren't prompted to ask about his name when purchasing the Defender of Easthaven +3.
CHARNAME isn't from Amn, and Joluv is from even farther away. An unfamiliar name wouldn't be surprising in that context. This is an extra-ridiculous new excuse to complain about Mizhena, and it's obvious that no one is actually interested in having the question answered, so I'm going to stop talking about it.
Actually that has been asked many a time in here, most of this is an endless rehash as different people come In and attempt to put input. Say the transsexual was just put there with good writing as a recruitable npc and it took till the very end at the final boss encountering to open up and tell your her story. without the amber quotes And without all the minsc+jaheira and other things. I'm certain it would have only gotten a minor mention in forums and it wouldv been a better mention "wow I didn't expect that, she/he is such a cool character tho" etc.
What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
In this case it's not really roleplay, since it is somewhat forced that Mizhena is an unusual name to Charname. Most of the names are strange to us, so perhaps Mizhena could be a strange name for the region, but no such reason is ever given.
Joluv is a weird name too, be we aren't prompted to ask about his name when purchasing the Defender of Easthaven +3.
CHARNAME isn't from Amn, and Joluv is from even farther away. An unfamiliar name wouldn't be surprising in that context. This is an extra-ridiculous new excuse to complain about Mizhena, and it's obvious that no one is actually interested in having the question answered, so I'm going to stop talking about it.
Actually that has been asked many a time in here, most of this is an endless rehash as different people come In and attempt to put input. Say the transsexual was just put there with good writing as a recruitable npc and it took till the very end at the final boss encountering to open up and tell your her story. without the amber quotes And without all the minsc+jaheira and other things. I'm certain it would have only gotten a minor mention in forums and it wouldv been a better mention "wow I didn't expect that, she/he is such a cool character tho" etc.
Why would it need to be to the very end at the last boss? For a minor npc without much importance? Is being trans so earth shattering that it needs such importance and attention? I really think that it should be able to just be said and forgotten because it isn't that important.
What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
In this case it's not really roleplay, since it is somewhat forced that Mizhena is an unusual name to Charname. Most of the names are strange to us, so perhaps Mizhena could be a strange name for the region, but no such reason is ever given.
Joluv is a weird name too, be we aren't prompted to ask about his name when purchasing the Defender of Easthaven +3.
CHARNAME isn't from Amn, and Joluv is from even farther away. An unfamiliar name wouldn't be surprising in that context. This is an extra-ridiculous new excuse to complain about Mizhena, and it's obvious that no one is actually interested in having the question answered, so I'm going to stop talking about it.
Actually that has been asked many a time in here, most of this is an endless rehash as different people come In and attempt to put input. Say the transsexual was just put there with good writing as a recruitable npc and it took till the very end at the final boss encountering to open up and tell your her story. without the amber quotes And without all the minsc+jaheira and other things. I'm certain it would have only gotten a minor mention in forums and it wouldv been a better mention "wow I didn't expect that, she/he is such a cool character tho" etc.
Why would it need to be to the very end at the last boss? For a minor npc without much importance? Is being trans so earth shattering that it needs such importance and attention? I really think that it should be able to just be said and forgotten because it isn't that important.
I think (Mephiston can clarify) that he was saying with appropriate buildup, similar to how the character relationships build up in regular BG (it takes a lot of time to advance character relations in BG II, and unless you're pumpin' out sidequests left and right, it can be near the end of the game before a number of them resolve; which is why mods for faster NPC dialogs exist, because some people want to do all the social quests then get to the next set of NPCs and such).
The point being, you'd learn more about who Mizhena is, rather than what Mizhena is.
Yeah, a similar thing happened in Pokemon. There's a transexual "Beauty" that mentions that she was a Black Belt / Karate King before having a sex-change. Some people on some pokemon forums discussed if it was certain, then the Japanese translation made it super certain, and no huge controversy.
What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
In this case it's not really roleplay, since it is somewhat forced that Mizhena is an unusual name to Charname. Most of the names are strange to us, so perhaps Mizhena could be a strange name for the region, but no such reason is ever given.
Joluv is a weird name too, be we aren't prompted to ask about his name when purchasing the Defender of Easthaven +3.
CHARNAME isn't from Amn, and Joluv is from even farther away. An unfamiliar name wouldn't be surprising in that context. This is an extra-ridiculous new excuse to complain about Mizhena, and it's obvious that no one is actually interested in having the question answered, so I'm going to stop talking about it.
Actually that has been asked many a time in here, most of this is an endless rehash as different people come In and attempt to put input. Say the transsexual was just put there with good writing as a recruitable npc and it took till the very end at the final boss encountering to open up and tell your her story. without the amber quotes And without all the minsc+jaheira and other things. I'm certain it would have only gotten a minor mention in forums and it wouldv been a better mention "wow I didn't expect that, she/he is such a cool character tho" etc.
Why would it need to be to the very end at the last boss? For a minor npc without much importance? Is being trans so earth shattering that it needs such importance and attention? I really think that it should be able to just be said and forgotten because it isn't that important.
I think (Mephiston can clarify) that he was saying with appropriate buildup, similar to how the character relationships build up in regular BG (it takes a lot of time to advance character relations in BG II, and unless you're pumpin' out sidequests left and right, it can be near the end of the game before a number of them resolve; which is why mods for faster NPC dialogs exist, because some people want to do all the social quests then get to the next set of NPCs and such).
The point being, you'd learn more about who Mizhena is, rather than what Mizhena is.
But she is a minor NPC, no different from the clerics in Nashel and Beregost. She just has flavor text. Why does that need companion level detail?
Example!
A priest of Tempus joins D'Arnis keep. He has flavor text saying that he was kicked out of his last parish.
Now imagine if people insisted that his backstory get fleshed out to companion level details. That we must learn everything about him and should only find out why he was kicked out around when you fight Irenicus.
Ridiculous, right? Him being kicked out of his last parish was just flavor text for a minor npc. He was just there for heals. Why make him so important?
That is exactly the argument made for Miz. I just don't see being trans as being so important. Do you?
Nope. Which is why I said the real problem here is less than she's transsexual and more the fact she's associated (further) with the other crap surrounding this issue (which is why I agreed that, if this is the kind of help we're getting for being included, please just don't).
That said, given how the helpful NPCs and merchants in The Black Pits have different dialog as you progress the game, it would have been pretty easy to add a little depth to the NPCs without them being actual members of your party. It's just a matter of setting certain flags.
EDIT: Which, incidentally, would have just made the game a better overall experience, since it would have added additional depth and interest to the NPCs. I mean, really, JRPGs like Final Fantasy were including tons of cool dialog on random hobos as you went through the game. In Final Fantasy 7, there's a woman in Sector 5 that that initially remarks that you should always look on the ground while you walk because you never know what you'll find. A bit later, after one of the plates above sector 7 collapses, she remarks that she'll be looking up from then on so as to avoid being caught unawares. If you return to the area later in the game (a completely optional thing to do), there again is the same lady except this time she remarks that having thought it over and seeing so much happen in the world, you just need to always look forward in life.
Western RPGs couldn't hurt seeing more things like this in them.
Nope. Which is why I said the real problem here is less than she's transsexual and more the fact she's associated (further) with the other crap surrounding this issue (which is why I agreed that, if this is the kind of help we're getting for being included, please just don't).
That said, given how the helpful NPCs and merchants in The Black Pits have different dialog as you progress the game, it would have been pretty easy to add a little depth to the NPCs without them being actual members of your party. It's just a matter of setting certain flags.
Then again there were how many npcs in the black pits? How many in sod?
Nope. Which is why I said the real problem here is less than she's transsexual and more the fact she's associated (further) with the other crap surrounding this issue (which is why I agreed that, if this is the kind of help we're getting for being included, please just don't).
That said, given how the helpful NPCs and merchants in The Black Pits have different dialog as you progress the game, it would have been pretty easy to add a little depth to the NPCs without them being actual members of your party. It's just a matter of setting certain flags.
Then again there were how many npcs in the black pits? How many in sod?
How many is fairly irrelevant, actually. The strength of the text-based RPG is how rapidly and easily you can add additional content (whereas voice acting is the death of the RPG). That's why games like Baldur's Gate are full of NPCs that just seem to exist for fun, because adding in NPCs that just exist for fun is a relatively painless process.
If you've already gotten an NPC, adding flags for dialog options shouldn't be an issue at all. It's usually a simple matter of setting a flag when certain events in the game occur, then having dialog show up when those flags are switched.
A very basic example for a game would be something like:
NPC has dialog options A-B.
Chapter 2 flag activates.
NPC gains dialog options C-D.
Chapter 3 flag activates.
NPC gains dialog options E-F
Chapter 4 flag activates.
NPC gains dialog options G-H
Final Chapter flag activates.
NPC gains dialog options J-K.
It's the same basic theory behind shops in Baldur's Gate restocking and changing at certain points in the game.
EDIT: Also note that I edited the post you responded to with additional stuff, in case you didn't see it.
EDIT 2: I'd also like to note that this generally makes mass-producing NPCs a hell of a lot easier, because if you have certain points in the game you want people to change their remarks or have access to new dialog options, or whatever (if only to keep the interest of the player ever piqued), you can just make any additional dialogs written into the NPC from the get go and just allow them to update at those flags.
This makes it easier to add new NPCs later, update existing NPCs, and have NPCs from mods take advantage of it as well. For example, if I were to design a town or area where NPCs were going to be available for basic services (shops, healers, etc), I'd give each NPC in the area different dialog options, inventories, and so forth, which activate at specific points in the game. So when you return to the town, it feels less static.
...Sargon of Akkad has a video that explains this concept in greater detail and the problems that exist within. It's a good video and it's worth watching even if you're not involved in the tug of war between SJWs and GGers.
There goes an hour of my life, still I thoroughly enjoyed it after the mindless bickering of he said/she said and you durty (sic) GGer/you unclean SJW.
Thank you.
(I know I posted this twice already but, yeah, it had a profound effect in me when I saw it and since it resumed its' 4th season what the hell):
Nope. Which is why I said the real problem here is less than she's transsexual and more the fact she's associated (further) with the other crap surrounding this issue (which is why I agreed that, if this is the kind of help we're getting for being included, please just don't).
That said, given how the helpful NPCs and merchants in The Black Pits have different dialog as you progress the game, it would have been pretty easy to add a little depth to the NPCs without them being actual members of your party. It's just a matter of setting certain flags.
Then again there were how many npcs in the black pits? How many in sod?
How many is fairly irrelevant, actually. The strength of the text-based RPG is how rapidly and easily you can add additional content (whereas voice acting is the death of the RPG). That's why games like Baldur's Gate are full of NPCs that just seem to exist for fun, because adding in NPCs that just exist for fun is a relatively painless process.
If you've already gotten an NPC, adding flags for dialog options shouldn't be an issue at all. It's usually a simple matter of setting a flag when certain events in the game occur, then having dialog show up when those flags are switched.
A very basic example for a game would be something like:
NPC has dialog options A-B.
Chapter 2 flag activates.
NPC gains dialog options C-D.
Chapter 3 flag activates.
NPC gains dialog options E-F
Chapter 4 flag activates.
NPC gains dialog options G-H
Final Chapter flag activates.
NPC gains dialog options J-K.
It's the same basic theory behind shops in Baldur's Gate restocking and changing at certain points in the game.
EDIT: Also note that I edited the post you responded to with additional stuff, in case you didn't see it.
EDIT 2: I'd also like to note that this generally makes mass-producing NPCs a hell of a lot easier, because if you have certain points in the game you want people to change their remarks or have access to new dialog options, or whatever (if only to keep the interest of the player ever piqued), you can just make any additional dialogs written into the NPC from the get go and just allow them to update at those flags.
This makes it easier to add new NPCs later, update existing NPCs, and have NPCs from mods take advantage of it as well. For example, if I were to design a town or area where NPCs were going to be available for basic services (shops, healers, etc), I'd give each NPC in the area different dialog options, inventories, and so forth, which activate at specific points in the game. So when you return to the town, it feels less static.
It has alot to do with it. If you have 6 NPCs, you can spend time fleshing them out. If you have 200 NPCs, you don't have as much time to flesh them all out. There is a huge difference in how much resources it takes.
On one hand you seem to be asking for *quality* writing. You also seem to be asking for every NPC to be fully fleshed out, saying that it is easy to add to them.
I say that we don't need every NPC to be fleshed out. That simple merchants and quest givers need to do just that. Perhaps add in some flavor text to make the game come alive a bit. But we don't need to explore them all. In fact, unless they are a major part of the game (ie: the duergar lost their homes to Baeloth and were the only NPCs who stayed with you through the whole game) no NPC gets that much characterization. Without the Duergar, there would have been almost no dialogue and no interaction in all of the Black Pits.
Now, could every NPC in the game get that treatment? Sure. But you'd need a whole lot more writers. And frankly, I think that most players would stop reading eventually because there would be too much distracting information that would take you away from the game itself.
And once more, I don't see why Miz has to be the only NPC that has gotten called out like this, when there are oh so many throughout BG1, BG1EE, BG2, and BG2EE who never got treated as such.
I just wish that she could just be treated like every other NPC in the game, and not turned into a political football who needs to be either removed or expanded.
What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
In this case it's not really roleplay, since it is somewhat forced that Mizhena is an unusual name to Charname. Most of the names are strange to us, so perhaps Mizhena could be a strange name for the region, but no such reason is ever given.
Joluv is a weird name too, be we aren't prompted to ask about his name when purchasing the Defender of Easthaven +3.
CHARNAME isn't from Amn, and Joluv is from even farther away. An unfamiliar name wouldn't be surprising in that context. This is an extra-ridiculous new excuse to complain about Mizhena, and it's obvious that no one is actually interested in having the question answered, so I'm going to stop talking about it.
Actually that has been asked many a time in here, most of this is an endless rehash as different people come In and attempt to put input. Say the transsexual was just put there with good writing as a recruitable npc and it took till the very end at the final boss encountering to open up and tell your her story. without the amber quotes And without all the minsc+jaheira and other things. I'm certain it would have only gotten a minor mention in forums and it wouldv been a better mention "wow I didn't expect that, she/he is such a cool character tho" etc.
Why would it need to be to the very end at the last boss? For a minor npc without much importance? Is being trans so earth shattering that it needs such importance and attention? I really think that it should be able to just be said and forgotten because it isn't that important.
From what I hear the game is short so yes, he'll it takes ages with other characters. Even elminster takes forever to tell you stuff, a random old man. Even with quests you get the bare basics and most times along the way you learn the rest of the quest and what happened. And u make the transsexual character more important because you have already made the character important being a 1 percenter. Throwing in a 1 percenter without anything special at all about them other then being a 1 percenter = a token character.
I just wish that she could just be treated like every other NPC in the game, and not turned into a political football who needs to be either removed or expanded.
Oh, I agree 100%. Just Beamdog made her the football when Amber Scott insulted the fanbase and political jabs were thrown, because of the connection exists between certain political movements and the LGBT community.
Which is like I said, is part of the reason I'd rather do without certain people trying to be helpful, because their "help" only makes us guilty by association in the eyes of the populace.
Though the dialog thing may just be wishful thinking because I'd like a better game. It really isn't that hard or time consuming though. Learned that from modding a number of games.
Comments
So, I think it's kinda up in the air about the whole name thing. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and honestly the name doesn't even strike me as a combination of different languages as described (given the sample names of the different core races in D&D material I've read).
And if it were, why not make the name a bit longer (so it seems plausible) and allow characters a few different options to notice that part of the name is a language they're familiar with, such as spotting the elven in the name but not recognizing the rest, or the dwarven in the name, etc? Y'know, actually play around with the idea a bit?
- Original characters weren't altered for an agenda (seriously, leave them the hell alone, write some new characters that the player can optionally pick up if they don't like the old ones, it's not that hard).
- SJW commentary hadn't been brought into it (Bob Newhart isn't even on the same level, and anyone who can't see why a reference to an old TV Show would be less offensive than direct politcal poking really needs to work on some things).
- Amber Scott didn't essentially tell fans their beloved game and its characters were full of regressive sexist ideas and if they didn't like the changes "tough" (seriously, wtf lady?).
Then Mizhena wouldn't be getting the crap she is now. Mizhena comes across to many as a tool of the regressive left, making her something very dirty. All of this could have been avoided. But, as I expected, being tied to the machinations of those with an agenda means being associated with that agenda, which is bad for us.Because to a lot of people, Mizhena doesn't come off as a nod towards inclusion, or a particularly deep character, or even just a character with a simple quirk that makes her more interesting to those paying attention (Juhani from KotoR hits all of these marks a lot better). Things that, very likely, only the conspiracy theorist types would worry about. But it is not tinfoil hat types that are upset about these things, and accusing them of such isn't helping anyone.
I'm hoping that they add a bit more depth to Mizhena, clean up the dialog, add a few more options, swat the bugs (and for goodness' sakes, we need the Steam version to not break mods), and FFS get their house in order.
This isn't about morality. It's about the fact that those who represent us set the precedent for how others think of us, because that's how the brain works. Some people are aware enough to immediately recognize that even if you happen to get a few bad apples out of the bunch, those apples might not represent the average apple, even if you happened to get unlucky enough to get a few in a row. Many people, however, will simply avoid apples.
And again, if not surrounded and entangled with the other BS, Mizhena may have just been written off as a character. However, there are indeed a lot of people using trans people to push an agenda, and there are a lot of whiny teenage tumblr idiots giving us a bad public representation, making people assume we're ****ing morons rather than just people with a condition.
Jaheira was simply someone who complained a lot (19:28) And safana was already sultry, snarky and a tad cynical (35:09)
Jaheira only became a character in BG2 after the loss of Khalid and Safana was nobody beyond 'companion who speaks sultry and snarky' in BG1 and 'former companion who tries to backstab you' in BG2. So really what 'alteration'? Meh, these days 'SJW' seems to mean 'having reasonable ideas that nonetheless trigger some constantly angry people for some reason' You would think that people claiming to be for the freedom of speech would simply respect other people using theirs even if it is to make fun of them... But apparently some people cannot bear being made fun of. It is now part of a 'regressive left' (whatever that is) 'agenda' to have a transgender character simply being there? Do tell what is 'regressive', 'left' and the 'machination' of a trans character existing with the setting not making a big deal about it...
Put another way, we are all the sum total of our experiences, circumstances, and ideas, but we are not an experience, circumstance, or an idea (unless your name is V, I guess). People, and good characters, are a massive amalgam of traits and experiences that create the synergy of the character themselves.
I recommend Frostgrave for some old-school tabletop adventuring.
I've seen as many trans people support Mizhena as condemn her. It's not for me to say how it affected them. But regardless of Beamdog's actions, those who succumb to their knee-jerk reaction and take their frustration out on the trans community are also at fault, and I do not agree with letting it pass just because "that's how the brain works." Everything anybody does is because that's how their brain works. It doesn't absolve them from criticism. Hold the burglar accountable, not just the guy who left your door open.
"Mizhena...such a pretty name. Is it Zhentish?"
"Mizhena? With a name like that, no wonder you became a priest of Tempus."
"I knew a Mizhena once. She used to hunt rats with me back in Candlekeep."
"My name is Mizhena too! We should be best friends!"
"Graaaaagh! Me smash!"
Obviously, there are going to be limitations as to the sort of options that can be selected, but the fact is that the game forces your character to think that the name is unusual. It's not the end of the world, but it is what it is, and frankly, Mizhena sounds more normal than a lot of the names within the game, but I'm not from the area to begin with.
She's even described as avoiding making friends as a small child "because he felt awkward in his skin". What follows is a story about how he was then raised as a girl for 6 years by a priestess of Desna, then leaves them forever, falls into a trap, gets rescued by a half-orc Paladin and both of them fall in love with each other on the way back to town (I **** you not, on the way back to town), and she reveals to the half-orc Paladin that even though she's been living half her life as a woman (and still is), she's actually male, and that it simply didn't matter since Irabeth (the Paladin) "had learned to value a companion's personality over appearance"; it then immediately notes the Paladin spends most of her wealth and pawns off her family sword to buy Tirablade an elixir to change her sex; then soon married. She then is described as doing menial work around a temple except when she occasionally does rogue stuff which makes her wife worry.
Her wife, the half-orc Paladin Irabeth's bio is notably shorter. Her father was an orc with saintly levels of level headed peacefulness, had a farm, they put up with bigots, she decided she had a calling to be a Paladin, traveled to a city and did well in a knightly order, but failed to become a knight because racism, then met Tirablade, they fell in love on the way back to the city, she saw through Tirablade's clever disguise (like Chuck Norris) and chalked it up to simple appearance and knowing "not to judge by appearances alone". She then pawns her sword, gives the elixir, feels more complete for having helped Tirablade by sacrificing her family sword, and that's pretty much the end.
At least Tirablade also has a few character qualities like her being prone to upsetting people because she's blunt and will say whatever she likes, or being pretty free spirited. However, when I was reading it, even I couldn't help but to get the impression that what I was reading was a little too bad in some places, a little too good in other places, and felt really gimmicky. Truly, it was the love at first hike nonbinary lesbian interracial romance I didn't know I had been waiting for!
Making it all the more awkward, is that the transgendered character who grew up friendless and introverted actually has an above-average Charisma score is a social savant based on her statblock.
As usual, your mileage may vary.
And calling people things like transphobes, trolls, bigots, racists, and things of that nature isn't making fun of, it's just insulting. I'd also like to point out that it's also wholly wrong in most cases, and not in a moral sense, but wrong in the sense that folks like me are implied to be transphobic or being unable to handle a game with a transgendered character in it, when I'm ****ing transgendered.
But, you have the right to say what you want. I will, however, ask that you back it up. I would define the regressive left as a movement that, intentionally or not, is pushing towards a regression in civil liberties, creating greater divisions between race, gender, social class, policing language, denouncing free speech as unacceptable if it's offensive, trying to monitor and police the interests of others on grounds of political correctness, in much the same way the religious right have been guilty of doing for a very long time. People that distinctly make things like race and sex an issue when it doesn't and shouldn't be. Most of it is related to modern feminist theory.
Today have groups going after things like Bayonetta and Dead or Alive, in much the same way people used to go after Mortal Kombat and Doom. Once you've seen the face of evil before, you remember it, even if it's wearing a different suit today. While I don't agree that Amber Scott is necessarily evil, the mindset of control and oppression certainly is.
And, though I don't consider myself a member of GamerGate (though honestly, I find myself having greater leanings in that direction the more these conversations continue), it would be dishonest for me to say that I didn't think that the ethics and integrity in gaming journalism (or hell, most all journalism these days) weren't absolute s***.
Sargon of Akkad has a video that explains this concept in greater detail and the problems that exist within. It's a good video and it's worth watching even if you're not involved in the tug of war between SJWs and GGers.
No characters in BG1 were deeply profound. None of them even have any personalities to speak of.
Also I never take him in BG1 except for that quest (800xp and the cha tome is that way). He has an opening dialogue (where he will kill you for refusing to help) and selection sounds. No humor, no banter, nothing funny. Just that.
BG2 though he is amazing to have. Because he is more than an empty shell. He is the Minsc I know and love. Without BG2 he wouldn't be memorable for me.
The only BG1 character I always have is Yeslick, because I'm that starved for a good aligned dwarf npc.
The only BG1 npcs with any personality are the EE ones.
The point being, you'd learn more about who Mizhena is, rather than what Mizhena is.
Example!
A priest of Tempus joins D'Arnis keep. He has flavor text saying that he was kicked out of his last parish.
Now imagine if people insisted that his backstory get fleshed out to companion level details. That we must learn everything about him and should only find out why he was kicked out around when you fight Irenicus.
Ridiculous, right? Him being kicked out of his last parish was just flavor text for a minor npc. He was just there for heals. Why make him so important?
That is exactly the argument made for Miz. I just don't see being trans as being so important. Do you?
That said, given how the helpful NPCs and merchants in The Black Pits have different dialog as you progress the game, it would have been pretty easy to add a little depth to the NPCs without them being actual members of your party. It's just a matter of setting certain flags.
EDIT: Which, incidentally, would have just made the game a better overall experience, since it would have added additional depth and interest to the NPCs. I mean, really, JRPGs like Final Fantasy were including tons of cool dialog on random hobos as you went through the game. In Final Fantasy 7, there's a woman in Sector 5 that that initially remarks that you should always look on the ground while you walk because you never know what you'll find. A bit later, after one of the plates above sector 7 collapses, she remarks that she'll be looking up from then on so as to avoid being caught unawares. If you return to the area later in the game (a completely optional thing to do), there again is the same lady except this time she remarks that having thought it over and seeing so much happen in the world, you just need to always look forward in life.
Western RPGs couldn't hurt seeing more things like this in them.
If you've already gotten an NPC, adding flags for dialog options shouldn't be an issue at all. It's usually a simple matter of setting a flag when certain events in the game occur, then having dialog show up when those flags are switched.
A very basic example for a game would be something like:
- NPC has dialog options A-B.
- Chapter 2 flag activates.
- NPC gains dialog options C-D.
- Chapter 3 flag activates.
- NPC gains dialog options E-F
- Chapter 4 flag activates.
- NPC gains dialog options G-H
- Final Chapter flag activates.
- NPC gains dialog options J-K.
It's the same basic theory behind shops in Baldur's Gate restocking and changing at certain points in the game.EDIT: Also note that I edited the post you responded to with additional stuff, in case you didn't see it.
EDIT 2: I'd also like to note that this generally makes mass-producing NPCs a hell of a lot easier, because if you have certain points in the game you want people to change their remarks or have access to new dialog options, or whatever (if only to keep the interest of the player ever piqued), you can just make any additional dialogs written into the NPC from the get go and just allow them to update at those flags.
This makes it easier to add new NPCs later, update existing NPCs, and have NPCs from mods take advantage of it as well. For example, if I were to design a town or area where NPCs were going to be available for basic services (shops, healers, etc), I'd give each NPC in the area different dialog options, inventories, and so forth, which activate at specific points in the game. So when you return to the town, it feels less static.
Thank you.
(I know I posted this twice already but, yeah, it had a profound effect in me when I saw it and since it resumed its' 4th season what the hell):
It has alot to do with it. If you have 6 NPCs, you can spend time fleshing them out. If you have 200 NPCs, you don't have as much time to flesh them all out. There is a huge difference in how much resources it takes.
On one hand you seem to be asking for *quality* writing. You also seem to be asking for every NPC to be fully fleshed out, saying that it is easy to add to them.
I say that we don't need every NPC to be fleshed out. That simple merchants and quest givers need to do just that. Perhaps add in some flavor text to make the game come alive a bit. But we don't need to explore them all. In fact, unless they are a major part of the game (ie: the duergar lost their homes to Baeloth and were the only NPCs who stayed with you through the whole game) no NPC gets that much characterization. Without the Duergar, there would have been almost no dialogue and no interaction in all of the Black Pits.
Now, could every NPC in the game get that treatment? Sure. But you'd need a whole lot more writers. And frankly, I think that most players would stop reading eventually because there would be too much distracting information that would take you away from the game itself.
And once more, I don't see why Miz has to be the only NPC that has gotten called out like this, when there are oh so many throughout BG1, BG1EE, BG2, and BG2EE who never got treated as such.
I just wish that she could just be treated like every other NPC in the game, and not turned into a political football who needs to be either removed or expanded.
Which is like I said, is part of the reason I'd rather do without certain people trying to be helpful, because their "help" only makes us guilty by association in the eyes of the populace.
Though the dialog thing may just be wishful thinking because I'd like a better game. It really isn't that hard or time consuming though. Learned that from modding a number of games.