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Trans person responds to Amber Scott and the other writers

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  • CorelliaCorellia Member Posts: 22
    While it's great "trans" people come out criticising Mizhena that post could have been made by *anyone* and does not really matter. The implementation was crap and beamdog seem to be aware of it and are already paying the hefty price(but "too bad" right?).
    But now all we can do is to wait for Mizhena to become a joinable npc with full voice acting and be fully importable to bg2ee(Including tob). With many amazing lines like: "You slaughter drows? Are you racist or something?" and the ever so original: "Curse Irenicus and his womb-envy!". The character also comes with a unique(but equal, maybe even slightly better) paperdoll and many "Mizhena only" items like: the cup of cis white male tears(50 charges, does 20 cold damage), glasses of the professional victim(+3 charisma, for every hit point lost: 5 gold added), red lipstick of doom(8 charges: summon 5 white knights that are *fully* under the caster's control as long as you send them kissing smileys), full plate of the social justice warrior(Armor class -1, +5 charisma, -3 constitution, increases reputation by 3, immunity to logic, CURSED), mace of attention(+3 fire damage, chance on hit: target is forced to attack the wielder and will lose 2 facebook friends each round for 2 rounds), shield of safe space(25% magic resistance, -15 wisdom, +3 to saving throws, once a day: Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, "no one can hurt you in your safe spaaaaace"), boots of triggering(3x a day: detect traps, periodically enrages user upon entering reality) and cloak of intellectual void(-10 intelligence, +3 charisma, on hit: mind flayers must save vs spell with a -5 penalty or become confused for 3 rounds).
    Concept art:



    Hype?
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    Shhh. Adults are talking.
  • Glam_VrockGlam_Vrock Member Posts: 277
    image
  • Mephiston87Mephiston87 Member Posts: 178

    Ashiel said:

    Well, Mephiston87 hasn't really done that.

    He has repeatedly used the word "evil" to describe the people who put Mizhena there. Not misguided. Evil. However, those who use Mizhena as an excuse to lash out at trans people? "Oh, I get that. It's not cool, but I get it. They're just taking it out on the easiest target, man. Whatever."
    Ashiel said:

    So like I've been saying, this sort of thing drags us through the mud too. I cannot blame those who think Mizhena is just a symbol. We become guilty in the eyes of the public by association.

    And this is where I take exception. Whether Mizhena is forced or not, it does not excuse blaming those who had nothing to do with it.
    I call anyone including religious people forcing religion evil. That is my opinion, we have endless world problems because people are trying to force others. Religion, ethics, politics anywhere where someone is being forced into things. The "you don't like it tough" attitude Is Evil.
  • AutequiAutequi Member Posts: 403
    edited April 2016

    I call anyone including religious people forcing religion evil. That is my opinion, we have endless world problems because people are trying to force others. Religion, ethics, politics anywhere where someone is being forced into things. The "you don't like it tough" attitude Is Evil.

    Ouch. I guess I'm evil then. I force my kid to do things all the time.

    (Also, if he doesn't want to try a bite of celery, tough.)
  • Mephiston87Mephiston87 Member Posts: 178
    edited April 2016
    Autequi said:

    I call anyone including religious people forcing religion evil. That is my opinion, we have endless world problems because people are trying to force others. Religion, ethics, politics anywhere where someone is being forced into things. The "you don't like it tough" attitude Is Evil.

    Ouch. I guess I'm evil then. I force my kid to do things all the time.

    (Also, if he doesn't want to try a bite of celery, tough.)
    THat is completely different, your not forcing you are teaching. You are responsible for them completely until they become of age. Your house your rules (within reason). And I bet they try and rebel and "stick it to the man" anyway.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    @Mephiston87: I don't understand. What is anyone being "forced into" in this case?
  • Mephiston87Mephiston87 Member Posts: 178
    edited April 2016
    joluv said:

    @Mephiston87: I don't understand. What is anyone being "forced into" in this case?

    If you want to buy the game u are forced to put up with sjw. It wasn't originally a part of the game, so as u can see by all the reviews people are "sticking it to the man". They want to play it without the agenda.

    I'm all for people making their own game with an agenda, I really am. It just won't sell. But I'm against people using names like "baldure's gate" an already established game to trick people into being forced in the agenda which they never expected to get.

    So because of it we get A Controversy
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    @Mephiston87 Do you object to Star Trek's multicultural ethos? Isn't the federation a stand in for the UN? Do you object to the political themes in the X men comics and movies? Professor X and Magneto represent two different positions on Israel-Palestine (and you can't get more controversial than that!).

    Do you object to the gender politics of the first game? A medieval fantasy where women are equal to men?

    I could go on -- the sci-fi / fantasy genre is full of political commentary both left and right. If you wait for politics free fantasy you will wait a very long time.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137

    joluv said:

    @Mephiston87: I don't understand. What is anyone being "forced into" in this case?

    If you want to buy the game u are forced to put up with sjw.
    1. Being forced into something
    2. Not getting exactly what you want

    Those are different.

    Also, that was interesting information about X-Men.
  • Mephiston87Mephiston87 Member Posts: 178
    edited April 2016

    @Mephiston87 Do you object to Star Trek's multicultural ethos? Isn't the federation a stand in for the UN? Do you object to the political themes in the X men comics and movies? Professor X and Magneto represent two different positions on Israel-Palestine (and you can't get more controversial than that!).

    Do you object to the gender politics of the first game? A medieval fantasy where women are equal to men?

    I could go on -- the sci-fi / fantasy genre is full of political commentary both left and right. If you wait for politics free fantasy you will wait a very long time.

    Ever read the forgotten realm books? Drizzt ones are my favourite. Yes according to the Lore the majority of races including humans are skewed towards one sex, males similar to how it was for our medieval period(not as bad tho) . Elves seem pretty balanced and equal(close to our current day), The drow are the extreme opposite super feminists. Other then bandits/rebel factions I can't really remember an extreme male dominant society to match up to the drow.

    So yes the game is sexist in all respects, and that matches the Lore. Do I kick up a fuss that there is a supremely feminist race in FR? Nope it's the Lore. Why change the females when they are supposed to be how they are? Why add a transexxual when in this world it is a non issue due to magic, why get minsc talking about ethics when his intelligence is too low to even understand what picking the side of sjw's means. There is More about the writers comments etc, but that alone is a heavy a gender.

    I Don't really follow star trek or xmen or the other stuff, so I have no idea.
    Post edited by Mephiston87 on
  • Mephiston87Mephiston87 Member Posts: 178
    joluv said:

    joluv said:

    @Mephiston87: I don't understand. What is anyone being "forced into" in this case?

    If you want to buy the game u are forced to put up with sjw.
    1. Being forced into something
    2. Not getting exactly what you want

    Those are different.

    Also, that was interesting information about X-Men.
    Either way a decent portion of this gaming community didn't get what we want according to the lore, both works. Like I have said atleast 10 times its not all about the transsexual, that is a small part. How transexxual was implemented was garbage, I have no problem with him/her being there.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137

    joluv said:

    joluv said:

    @Mephiston87: I don't understand. What is anyone being "forced into" in this case?

    If you want to buy the game u are forced to put up with sjw.
    1. Being forced into something
    2. Not getting exactly what you want

    Those are different.

    Also, that was interesting information about X-Men.
    Either way a decent portion of this gaming community didn't get what we want according to the lore, both works. Like I have said atleast 10 times its not all about the transsexual, that is a small part. How transexxual was implemented was garbage, I have no problem with him/her being there.
    Sorry, I'm having a lot of trouble parsing this comment. Could you rephrase the first sentence? Also, were we even talking about Mizhena in particular? I was just pointing out that Beamdog isn't forcing you into anything. It was in reference to your earlier post:

    I call anyone including religious people forcing religion evil. That is my opinion, we have endless world problems because people are trying to force others. Religion, ethics, politics anywhere where someone is being forced into things. The "you don't like it tough" attitude Is Evil.

  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    edited April 2016

    @Mephiston87 Do you object to Star Trek's multicultural ethos? Isn't the federation a stand in for the UN? Do you object to the political themes in the X men comics and movies? Professor X and Magneto represent two different positions on Israel-Palestine (and you can't get more controversial than that!).

    Do you object to the gender politics of the first game? A medieval fantasy where women are equal to men?

    I could go on -- the sci-fi / fantasy genre is full of political commentary both left and right. If you wait for politics free fantasy you will wait a very long time.

    Ever read the forgotten realm books? Drizzt ones are my favourite. Yes according to the Lore the majority of races including humans are skewed towards one sex, males similar to how it was for our medieval period. Elves seem pretty balanced and equal(close to our current day), The drow are the extreme opposite super feminists. Other then bandits/rebel factions I can't really remember an extreme male dominant society to match up to the drow.

    So yes the game is sexist in all respects, and that matches the Lore. Do I kick up a fuss that there is a supremely feminist race in FR? Nope it's the Lore.

    I Don't really follow star trek or xmen or the other stuff, so I have no idea.
    I'm one of the olds so I read the early Drizzt books when they first came out. I think Catti-Brie is a kick ass character who doesn't at all fit gender stereotypes. And, yes, back when we put onions on our belts I played the vault of the drow and loved it. I think drow society was indeed political statement. It's not so much a feminist society as a matriarchy. The drow are the photo-negatives of the surface elves and their society is the photo-negative of a patriarchy; Gygax gave men a glimpse of what it would be like to be on the receiving end of patriarchal privilege. One of the dialogues I really liked in SOD was the one

    with drow teens. When when the girl says something to the effect of "and he was so pretty so I had to have him". I thought "oh yeah, someone got it". Someone saw what Gygax was trying to do. That is what would be like to be a male in drow society -- to be valued for your looks, to expect to stand by as an ornament while the woman took the lead in the discussion


    It was perfect.

    So, in the realms you can be a princess or you can be a kick-ass archer. And it's been that way since the beginning.
    Post edited by killerrabbit on
  • Mephiston87Mephiston87 Member Posts: 178
    edited April 2016
    joluv said:

    joluv said:

    joluv said:

    @Mephiston87: I don't understand. What is anyone being "forced into" in this case?

    If you want to buy the game u are forced to put up with sjw.
    1. Being forced into something
    2. Not getting exactly what you want

    Those are different.

    Also, that was interesting information about X-Men.
    Either way a decent portion of this gaming community didn't get what we want according to the lore, both works. Like I have said atleast 10 times its not all about the transsexual, that is a small part. How transexxual was implemented was garbage, I have no problem with him/her being there.
    Sorry, I'm having a lot of trouble parsing this comment. Could you rephrase the first sentence? Also, were we even talking about Mizhena in particular? I was just pointing out that Beamdog isn't forcing you into anything. It was in reference to your earlier post:

    I call anyone including religious people forcing religion evil. That is my opinion, we have endless world problems because people are trying to force others. Religion, ethics, politics anywhere where someone is being forced into things. The "you don't like it tough" attitude Is Evil.

    It's In perfect English and it makes perfect sense even the quotation is correct what do you want me to change? Most sjw's that have come into this forum believe all this fuss is about a transexxual being in there only and it's not at all the case.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    @GenderNihilismGirdle

    Good luck on that road :)

    While I agree with 99% percent of what you've written I would emphasize that you, and others on this forum, wouldn't volunteer that sort of information post-transition, some others would. Take Dean Spade. If you don't know that Dean is trans he'd like you to know -- the sooner the better.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137

    It's In perfect English and it makes perfect sense even the quotation is correct what do you want me to change? Most sjw's that have come into this forum believe all this fuss is about a transexxual being in there only and it's not at all the case.

    I'm trying to have a constructive conversation by understanding you and finding common ground. Your messages are often confusing to me, though, and it seems like you keep jumping between different subjects.

    Also, I would generally avoid scrutinizing grammar on an international forum, but since you brought it up and have said that you're Australian: No, your message was not in perfect English.
  • Mephiston87Mephiston87 Member Posts: 178
    edited April 2016
    joluv said:

    It's In perfect English and it makes perfect sense even the quotation is correct what do you want me to change? Most sjw's that have come into this forum believe all this fuss is about a transexxual being in there only and it's not at all the case.

    I'm trying to have a constructive conversation by understanding you and finding common ground. Your messages are often confusing to me, though, and it seems like you keep jumping between different subjects.

    Also, I would generally avoid scrutinizing grammar on an international forum, but since you brought it up and have said that you're Australian: No, your message was not in perfect English.
    Talking about my grammar does not seem constructive. No matter where I'm from. I'm on my phone with auto correct on. And we won't find common ground, polar opposites. Someone already put the best answer out there. I swap names to help you out.


    Mephiston(I represent no party) is deeply committed to respectability politics, believing that the best way to change people's prejudices is to patiently show them that you are worthy of their respect. He would prefer that people avoid direct confrontation regarding trans rights because of the negative reactions it could provoke.

    Sjw's believes that such behavior will get you nowhere and lets bigots off the hook, unfairly putting the burden of responsibility on the victims of prejudice. She thinks that confrontation is necessary for change.

    A good summary of both sides as another insightful observer posted. I didn't know I was anti sjw till this all happened and I heard very little about the gamer gate stuff
  • GenderNihilismGirdleGenderNihilismGirdle Member Posts: 1,353

    @GenderNihilismGirdle

    Good luck on that road :)

    While I agree with 99% percent of what you've written I would emphasize that you, and others on this forum, wouldn't volunteer that sort of information post-transition, some others would. Take Dean Spade. If you don't know that Dean is trans he'd like you to know -- the sooner the better.

    That's a good point, some people do make a point of it. I concede that, for sure! Transness as such can be something that is dangerous to reveal though, and while that might not be as true on Abeir-Toril as on Earth, I do get why some people feel that a reveal like that should resonate with the kinds of situations that tend to have trans people revealing that information (i.e. a very deep level of trust or contextual necessity, such as someone misgendering or deadnaming you in front of someone who wasn't aware you were trans and just thought you were who you present as).

    But you're right, it's not universal by any means that trans folks obscure their transness, it's just that in this world you can end up on the wrong end of violence to reveal that facet. Public figures, whether speakers or intellectuals or journalists or celebrities or what have you, often have a very different world than the majority of us and even they sometimes come under physical attack.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    @Mephiston87: Hmm. The post you've modified there was one by me about how people with those views aren't polar opposites but just have a disagreement about methods. I also said those were both reasonable stances. Despite that, you've apparently assigned me to one of the sides and are using "sjw's" (a term you have consistently associated with "evil") as a stand-in for my name. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because I wanted to believe that the forum was almost back to normal, but I guess I had better face reality and stop feeding the troll, as they say. Later.
  • Mephiston87Mephiston87 Member Posts: 178
    joluv said:

    @Mephiston87: Hmm. The post you've modified there was one by me about how people with those views aren't polar opposites but just have a disagreement about methods. I also said those were both reasonable stances. Despite that, you've apparently assigned me to one of the sides and are using "sjw's" (a term you have consistently associated with "evil") as a stand-in for my name. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because I wanted to believe that the forum was almost back to normal, but I guess I had better face reality and stop feeding the troll, as they say. Later.

    Oh sorry I copied it for referance but didn't remember your name lol, very few people have jumped in with a minimal "unbiased opinion" most come on hard and fast and word pick endlessly(which u were doing) so I wrongly assumed you were an sjw sorry. I'm fine to discuss whatever, but my spelling and words will be off due to auto correct.

    You did well with your assessment of Sides of the "political" debate sort of thing. Looking as reviews Still, I'm unsure weather the developer fixes will be enough. Feels like alot of people are. Jumping ship I dunno.
  • KcoQuidamKcoQuidam Member Posts: 181
    edited April 2016
    (Nevermind. They're definitivly a well trained concern troll. But they're still obvious. I delete this post)
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    I ask again, what makes Mizrehna's name so absolutely bizarre compared to every other name?
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.
  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    joluv said:

    What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.

    In this case it's not really roleplay, since it is somewhat forced that Mizhena is an unusual name to Charname. Most of the names are strange to us, so perhaps Mizhena could be a strange name for the region, but no such reason is ever given.

    Joluv is a weird name too, be we aren't prompted to ask about his name when purchasing the Defender of Easthaven +3.

  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254

    Ashiel said:

    I guess I probably shouldn't have said "critical thinking" when I actually meant "common sense."

    Unfortunately there's nothing common about common sense.
    Aphorisms aside, saying "Someone made a mediocre game with (minority) in it! This is all (minority)'s fault!" is a childish, knee-jerk, spiteful response, and I don't know why Mephiston wants to give people a pass on that while holding the "evil" SJWs fully accountable.
    And this is where I take exception. Whether Mizhena is forced or not, it does not excuse blaming those who had nothing to do with it.
    Unfortunately, this is how the human mind works. If you're aware of it (and most aren't), you can avoid these pitfalls, but human beings are not entirely rational, nor do they regularly think too deeply into things. To a sense, this happened with Mizhena, but it's a little more complex than just working in one direction or "everyone blame the tranny".

    See, if it had just been Mizhena, I'm about 89.47% certain that there wouldn't have been the huge backlash. Yeah, the writing would have been a little cheesy, but I don't think it would have bothered half as many people. Because there are a lot of non-cisgendered characters in video games, and while they occasionally make a few people bat a few lashes with surprise, it's by the large not even surprising anymore. Even when the Black Belt/Karate King turned Beauty from Pokemon remarks about her transformation, most go "Huh, okay" and then go back to to playing. Sure, there's a few people that wonder more, and there's a few people that get antsy about it, but by the large nobody gives a ****.

    A brief and very incomplete example (though they're wrong about Poison, she was always a transsexual even in the original Japanese version, but mistakes are human).

    Because gamers, in general, aren't transphobic, homophobic, etc. Hell, the frequency that I meet other transsexuals through gaming is pretty astounding (given our relatively small % of the overall population). Gaming, both electronic and tabletop, is one of the most welcoming places for us as far as communities are concerned, even moreso than most LGBT communities I tried to interact with (which are often exceedingly toxic, self entitled, preachy, and petty; though your mileage may vary).

    However, because of the stuff surrounding Mizhena, it became a perfect storm to hate Mizhena not for being transgendered but for being a symptom, a symbol, a tool, of a form of ideological mongering. I'm pretty sure that Mephistan87 isn't a transphobe, and I strongly think trying to paint him as one is in bad taste. Same with the rest of the community. And SJWs fired first, which is why there is a lot of backlash against them (such as with the Anita Sarkeesian thing), and in the case of Baldur's Gate, you have a writer who is confirmed to be changing the original material (which fans loved) to suite her own idealogical interests, which is as blasphemous to the fanbase as going back and rewriting Lord of the Rings because somebody didn't think Frodo was manly enough.

    When framed in this context, Mizhena isn't just transgendered character #37 on some list somewhere, she's something else entirely. Something people don't want. She now is associating transgenderism with a political agenda and raining on someone's anniversary parade. Hence why even some of us transgendered folk are disappointed, or even upset, at her inclusion in this fashion.

    Again, gamers are among the most accepting people in the entire world. As noted earlier, there is a reason that same-sex/cross-race romance mods are so prevalent in games (including this one). The problem is the association with things that are hostile to the community and entangled with Mizhena, combined with the in-universe oddity of it (nobody has addressed the fact I brought up earlier, that homosexuality has been declared abnormal in Baldur's Gate, which makes transsexuality a bit suspect on the normal-o'-meter), combined with everyone calling anyone with concerns or criticism bigots and trolls.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    Philhelm said:

    joluv said:

    What makes Plamsen strange compared to other names? The fact that I've never heard it before. So I roleplayed that CHARNAME had never met a Mizhena before.

    In this case it's not really roleplay, since it is somewhat forced that Mizhena is an unusual name to Charname. Most of the names are strange to us, so perhaps Mizhena could be a strange name for the region, but no such reason is ever given.

    Joluv is a weird name too, be we aren't prompted to ask about his name when purchasing the Defender of Easthaven +3.

    CHARNAME isn't from Amn, and Joluv is from even farther away. An unfamiliar name wouldn't be surprising in that context. This is an extra-ridiculous new excuse to complain about Mizhena, and it's obvious that no one is actually interested in having the question answered, so I'm going to stop talking about it.
This discussion has been closed.