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Why all the controversy? or, Great job on the Hypocrisy!

Seriously.

First some background; I am a Catholic, born and raised in the Deep South. I don't support gay marriage, I don't believe in transgenderism, and I refuse to try tofu.

But here's the thing; this is a fantasy game. I'm playing as the direct descendant of an evil god of murder. I slaughter thousands indiscriminately, and probably a third of those aren't even evil, just people doing their job (*cough ToB slaughter of an army regiment*).

Despite my not supporting gay marriage, I have worked with several gay people, and you know what? They're people. I suspect, if I worked with a transgender person, they would be that too; just people. But you know who isn't "just people"? A mass murderer, who, surprise! You're playing a game as.

So, I suppose what I'm trying to say is, these raging idiots really piss me off; it is hypocrisy of the highest order to take offense at something so small, when the core of the game is something infinitely more offensive.

Stop being bitches; a video game about dragons and magic is the wrong place for your whiny anti-pc idiocy. If you don't like the game, fine, but don't like it because it was rather linear, or some of the characters felt off, or you don't like that Jaheira doesn't have a voice.

But don't not like it because of something minor that offends your moral compass, when the heart of the game is so much worse.

GrumJarrakulillathidNomphosumusopd70MoradinlansounetDargnonArasHUNAchterkladIthualArcalianNonnahswriterSwashbucklerlunarTresset
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Comments

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    And what of us having a definite female gaming immersion? Gasp, we could be feminist even! ;-) Sorry to be playful, but I am quite bemused gay might have become more socially acceptable in your books, for a self proclaimed Deep South conservative. Right, or wrong?

    If you ask my opinion, gaming immersion is not typically very fragile for an actual gaming fan. I LOVE Baldur's Gate series with a total love that is ever actual, certainly nostalgic - and formative, because BG series made me love RPG gaming.

    Be it Mizhena, or "out of char" Minsc - as a fan, I could take both, and more, even if I hated writing. But I did not. I am a fan, meanwhile.

    I suggest you direct indignation to "I throw my toys out of my pram on least excuse" crowd.

    And this is not gaming fans. Thirty plus hours of gameplay, you know? I'd find it more than hypocritical not to enjoy those 30+ hours, minus 30 seconds, because...

    ... ... ....

    Indeed? Why not?

  • WayniacWayniac Member Posts: 132
    Jarrakul said:

    Tenrecc said:

    Literally nobody disliked Mizhena just because she was a trangendered character. They hated that s/he was forced into the game for the sake of just having one, unrealistic and sloppily and without any purpose.

    This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Lord Foreshadow was forced into the game for the sake of just having a reference to the still-in-planning-stages Neverwinter Nights. He was unrealistic and sloppy and without any real purpose. Bub Snikt was forced into the game for the sake of having a Wolverine reference, and don't even get me started on Drizzt and Cadderly. Does that mean these things should be in the game? Of course it doesn't. But if you think for a second that the outrage is just about the writers being ham-handed, you haven't been paying attention. No one cared about the ham-handedness until it meant there was a trans person in the game.
    I don't usually do this, but in this case I feel that this is so spot on it's necessary, so...

    +1

    GrumsparkleavIthualkillerrabbit
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Ithuallunar
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited April 2016

    I'll be the devil's advocate here: maybe the huge reaction came from the combination of the two. Meaning she was both transgender AND hamfisted. I'd like to think that gamers all across the world would have been able to handle the npc far better had it been transgender and not hamfisted, or hamfisted and not transgender. Maybe that's what people have calling poor writing. I think poor planning might be more adequate. As for me, I had not even realised her name was *different*, hence the resulting confusion (your name is fine, what are you babbling about?).

    Rubbish! Baldur's Gate 1998 was full of ham-fisted writing, and issues people could have taken issue with (attitudes to hunting, for example).

    What we had hear was a bunch of neo-fascist bully-boys, emboldened by the Trump campaign, looking to throw their weight around, and SoD (and a female writer) providing a continent target.

    killerrabbit
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325

    I'll be the devil's advocate here: maybe the huge reaction came from the combination of the two. Meaning she was both transgender AND hamfisted. I'd like to think that gamers all across the world would have been able to handle the npc far better had it been transgender and not hamfisted, or hamfisted and not transgender. Maybe that's what people have calling poor writing. I think poor planning might be more adequate. As for me, I had not even realised her name was *different*, hence the resulting confusion (your name is fine, what are you babbling about?).

    The reaction resulted from multiple causes.
    1. It's the Baldur's Gate franchise. Look at DOOM open beta right now.
    2. Legitimate issues with the game. Bugs, writing etc.
    3. A transgender character in a fantasy setting, where you can change your gender on demand. the cursed belt, wild magic, edwin. So the character solely exists as a token.

    So in their eyes beamdog messed up the writing, released a bugged game, and pandered to sjws, culminating in a massive insult to the baldur's gate series.

    SharGuidesMyHandAutocratRathenau
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    sparkleav
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    illathid said:

    You know the availability of magic doesn't make someone any less transgender right? Mizhena says she was born a male but later came to realize that she was actually female. That's it. It could mean she used magic to physically change her gender or not. In either case it doesn't make her any less transgender. This is seriously the dumbest argument people can make about this issue.

    It should be a non-issue to her. And this whole issue isn't viewed as a singularity, but in a wider context. Cultural turmoil, some new writers being part of the sj-movement, or even more dialogue lines that reflect the cultural view of certain individuals.
    If mizhana was in the original release of baldur's gate or shadows of amn, nobody would have given a damn, as the lgbt movement was miniscule, invisible at that time. it's the context that gave birth to this character, and the resulting shitstorm.

    RawgrimRathenauIthualkillerrabbit
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,175
    What I really find surprising is the vitriol in all the criticism.

    I lived through the release of Ultima 9 and Gothic 3. This makes me very aware of what being disappointed with a sequel is like. But it never make me rant like some of the people visiting these forums. Not referring to anyone in this thread right now.

    GrumJarrakulkillerrabbit
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Ammar said:

    What I really find surprising is the vitriol in all the criticism.

    I lived through the release of Ultima 9 and Gothic 3. This makes me very aware of what being disappointed with a sequel is like. But it never make me rant like some of the people visiting these forums. Not referring to anyone in this thread right now.

    I had been playing the great Ultima 7 for years. Ultima 8 came out. I was convinced it would be just as great as 7....I died a little. Then 9 came out. Surely they must have improved this time? Back to the good old Ultimas? Uhm....I know exactly what you felt.

    AmmarRathenau
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    geselle said:

    I'll be the devil's advocate here: maybe the huge reaction came from the combination of the two. Meaning she was both transgender AND hamfisted. I'd like to think that gamers all across the world would have been able to handle the npc far better had it been transgender and not hamfisted, or hamfisted and not transgender. Maybe that's what people have calling poor writing. I think poor planning might be more adequate. As for me, I had not even realised her name was *different*, hence the resulting confusion (your name is fine, what are you babbling about?).

    The reaction resulted from multiple causes.
    1. It's the Baldur's Gate franchise. Look at DOOM open beta right now.
    2. Legitimate issues with the game. Bugs, writing etc.
    3. A transgender character in a fantasy setting, where you can change your gender on demand. the cursed belt, wild magic, edwin. So the character solely exists as a token.

    So in their eyes beamdog messed up the writing, released a bugged game, and pandered to sjws, culminating in a massive insult to the baldur's gate series.
    I don't think anybody has thought this "on demand gender change" argument through.

    The belt has to be worn all the time, forever. You can't take it off. Not only would that be a constant reminder of your incomplete transformation, it'd be annoying in all sorts of normal, everyday ways, like donning or removing pants.

    Wild magic is wild. You probably don't have the ability to harness it, much less control it. Even if you do, it's still random. You're just as likely to crush yourself with a meteoric cow as to change yourself into the opposite sex.

    Edwin transformed himself into a woman with an artifact, a powerful scroll from the most ancient empire of human wizard autocrats in the history of the Forgotten Realms. There's nothing on-demand about any of that.

    The alternatives aren't much better. Making transmutation magic and other temporary effects permanent requires Permanency, a high-level spell that costs lots of money in components, depending on what you're making permanent.

    GrumAyiekieIthualNonnahswriter
  • TenreccTenrecc Member Posts: 265
    Jarrakul said:

    Tenrecc said:

    Literally nobody disliked Mizhena just because she was a trangendered character. They hated that s/he was forced into the game for the sake of just having one, unrealistic and sloppily and without any purpose.

    This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Lord Foreshadow was forced into the game for the sake of just having a reference to the still-in-planning-stages Neverwinter Nights. He was unrealistic and sloppy and without any real purpose. Bub Snikt was forced into the game for the sake of having a Wolverine reference, and don't even get me started on Drizzt and Cadderly. Does that mean these things should be in the game? Of course it doesn't. But if you think for a second that the outrage is just about the writers being ham-handed, you haven't been paying attention. No one cared about the ham-handedness until it meant there was a trans person in the game.
    Sigh. Did you even bother to read the OP? Since it looks like you didn't, here;
    TyrReborn said:

    Despite my not supporting gay marriage, I have worked with several gay people, and you know what? They're people. I suspect, if I worked with a transgender person, they would be that too; just people. But you know who isn't "just people"? A mass murderer, who, surprise! You're playing a game as.

    And;
    TyrReborn said:

    But don't not like it because of something minor that offends your moral compass, when the heart of the game is so much worse.

    OP is misguidedly thinking that people actually dislike Mizhena just because she's transgendered, and that being transgendered is somehow offending peoples "moral compass." I'm just explaining that no, that really isn't the case.

    AutocratRathenauTalys
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    edited April 2016
    @Schneidend
    I just wanted to name some mechanics in the BG series itself that alter the gender, in the forgotten realms setting a lot more ways to change your gender exist. i'm not that familiar with that topic however.

    Rathenau
  • TenreccTenrecc Member Posts: 265
    Wayniac said:

    You are misguidedly thinking that people actually dislike Mizhena just because she's "forced into the game for the sake of just having her, unrealistic and sloppily and without any purpose." He's just explaining that no, that really isn't the case.

    If you honestly think people are hating on her just because she's transgendered, as opposed to being used to make a political statement, I'm not sure what to say. Go read the negative reviews?

    AutocratRathenau
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited April 2016
    illathid said:

    You know the availability of magic doesn't make someone any less transgender right? Mizhena says she was born a male but later came to realize that she was actually female. That's it. It could mean she used magic to physically change her gender or not. In either case it doesn't make her any less transgender. This is seriously the dumbest argument people can make about this issue.

    That's not the damn point. In a setting where gender isn't really even an issue (meaning, the Forgotten Realms setting), people got their panties in a twist over a transgender character -- a minor character, who happened to be transgender. It's EASILY ignorable, but people got all pissed off about it.

    Gender and sexuality were always a non-consideration in the Forgotten Realms setting. There's no reason for people to get all pissed off about it, because less than 500 words of dialog (out of 500,000 words of dialog total for the expansion) had a mention of it.

    killerrabbit
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Tenrecc said:

    Wayniac said:

    You are misguidedly thinking that people actually dislike Mizhena just because she's "forced into the game for the sake of just having her, unrealistic and sloppily and without any purpose." He's just explaining that no, that really isn't the case.

    If you honestly think people are hating on her just because she's transgendered, as opposed to being used to make a political statement, I'm not sure what to say. Go read the negative reviews?
    I've read quite a few of the negative reviews. I went through literally the entire steam review list not too long ago. Believe me, I've seen them. And you know what? My argument stands. Because, fine, you want to narrow things down to only ham-handed political statements? Baldur's Gate has plenty of those as well. @Fardragon points out the game is rather heavy-handed on its attitudes towards hunting, and that's not the end of it. You get reputation points for saving a deserter from the law, with no moral nuance suggested. The villains are evil capitalists, and at one point stealing from merchants is described as making you no better than a merchant yourself. Are you going to tell me that isn't political commentary? Are you going to say that's in any way not a way stronger stance than including one trans woman in the game? Are you going to explain why that's somehow more nuanced, less forced-down-your-throat than Mizhena's "my parents mistook me for a man"? No. If the ham-handedness drove the anger, they'd be angry at so much more.

    WayniacGrummf2112killerrabbit
  • InKalInKal Member Posts: 157
    you are babbling and babling with no end and no sense completely missing the point.

    and the point is that being a transgender person is much more and I mean MUCH more complex and serious (just look at the statistic and you will see how extremely serious it is) than to be presented in such a trivial and shortened way like Beamdog did. Bioware at least put some effort into this.
    stop your stupid fanboyism, you can't save the world by clicking some childish pseudo dialog on your hipsters ipads.

  • illathidillathid Member Posts: 320

    illathid said:

    You know the availability of magic doesn't make someone any less transgender right? Mizhena says she was born a male but later came to realize that she was actually female. That's it. It could mean she used magic to physically change her gender or not. In either case it doesn't make her any less transgender. This is seriously the dumbest argument people can make about this issue.

    That's not the damn point. In a setting where gender isn't really even an issue (meaning, the Forgotten Realms setting), people got their panties in a twist over a transgender character -- a minor character, who happened to be transgender. It's EASILY ignorable, but people got all pissed off about it.

    Gender and sexuality were always a non-consideration in the Forgotten Realms setting. There's no reason for people to get all pissed off about it, because less than 500 words of dialog (out of 500,000 words of dialog total for the expansion) had a mention of it.

    Agreed, I'm just saying why this particular argument for why she shouldn't be in the game is dumb.

  • GSMGSM Member Posts: 34
    Beamdog says they will address these "issues". Honestly I think people need to stop complaining and just play video games and stop shoving shit no one wants to see. I don't care if a person is transgendered, no one gets special treatment, we are all human.

    I don't disagree her dialogue needs a bit more work but I believe if the character was just a male it wouldn't even be a big thing like it is now. Just some people complaining like normal.

    Grum
  • jmkarlssonjmkarlsson Member Posts: 30
    @TyrReborn I understand that you believe that you play this game as a mass murderer however you are wrong, when you kill that Tethyrian army in ToB you are actually defending yourself against a great injustice because the Queen of Tethyr has decided that you are responsible for the destruction of Saradush despite the fact that Saradush was besieged by an army of fire giants and killing someone in self defence is not murder and you damn well know that.

  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100

    @TyrReborn I understand that you believe that you play this game as a mass murderer however you are wrong, when you kill that Tethyrian army in ToB you are actually defending yourself against a great injustice because the Queen of Tethyr has decided that you are responsible for the destruction of Saradush despite the fact that Saradush was besieged by an army of fire giants and killing someone in self defence is not murder and you damn well know that.

    Given how easy it is to flee (invis radius) I call it murder. Self defense is apporpriate force to defend yourself.

    Ayiekie
  • jmkarlssonjmkarlsson Member Posts: 30
    @Grum oh yeah have you ever heard of something called casting time not to mention mods that give enemy spellcasters the idea that if an enemy uses invisibility that then you use truesight you know if I want to increase difficulty in specific areas like combat against enemy spellcasters.

    kanemi
  • DargnonDargnon Member Posts: 31
    Until I have read all this drama, I had no issue with Mizhena. I noticed her, I noticed she is a transvestite, and for a couple of seconds I thought "this is unusual. Hm, she has an unusual voice as well, oh well, just another transvestite".

    And I didn't care. Also, good point, this is a Fantasy games. There are DRAGONS, GODS, MAGES, SPELLS... why not people who feel like being the opposite sex?

    lunarkillerrabbit
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100

    @Grum oh yeah have you ever heard of something called casting time not to mention mods that give enemy spellcasters the idea that if an enemy uses invisibility that then you use truesight you know if I want to increase difficulty in specific areas like combat against enemy spellcasters.

    Not fair to compare original game to mod use. I iPhone it up, so no more for me. Quite easy to ignore that fight completely. Also if you do have to fight, you don't need to kill them all. Self defense is the use of appropriate force. Anything more than that is murder.

    Ayiekieillathid
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