True, but hating or not hating is irreverent to seeing their use as a tool, particularly in a war. In fact you could see Minsc as an assest, much less likely to betray you and ready to sacrifice himself for you. His value outweighes any personal emotions or despisement your PC would have. A manipulating evil mage would look coldy at what use things are to them, whether s/he likes them or not, and then proceed accordingly, if that means Minsc is more effective and useful and they need to make sure they don't murder everyone (which doesn't fit an up and coming manipulative evil character anyway) then so be it.
You're missing the point, though: RP doesn't (and shouldn't) have to go through all these extrapolations and justifications in the first place. If the game is forcing you to rationalize recruiting someone you would not have in your party as a matter of choice, it's a problem - because that's literally not how parties are supposed to work in Baldur's Gate.
True, but hating or not hating is irreverent to seeing their use as a tool, particularly in a war. In fact you could see Minsc as an assest, much less likely to betray you and ready to sacrifice himself for you. His value outweighes any personal emotions or despisement your PC would have. A manipulating evil mage would look coldy at what use things are to them, whether s/he likes them or not, and then proceed accordingly, if that means Minsc is more effective and useful and they need to make sure they don't murder everyone (which doesn't fit an up and coming manipulative evil character anyway) then so be it.
You're missing the point, though: RP doesn't (and shouldn't) have to go through all these extrapolations and justifications in the first place. If the game is forcing you to rationalize recruiting someone you would not have in your party as a matter of choice, it's a problem - because that's literally not how parties are supposed to work in Baldur's Gate.
Perhaps, but the situation the story starts off with you in a war situation, Argent wants you dead, and you are in command, you need to utlize who you can, it doesn't give you the freedom of BG1 because the story is different. That said unless you know where to go your initial choice there is limited, Imoen, Xzar, Montaron, and/or Jaheria and Khalid, you can not take them but without knowing where everyone else is it is more difficult. And BG2 is worse, canon party or just CHARNAME and Imoen. It's not the first time (PoE you have Edar and Aloth, MofB Safiya and Gann if you can persaude him etc) it is a limitation but understandable in the story set-up and not new, to either BG or cRPGs in general that have companion NPCs.
Let's also keep in mind they want you to have some sort of a connection to the Canon party so that when BG2 starts, it at least makes some sense. Baldur's Gate has never really been easy for Evil parties. Even BG1, with its broad variety of evil party members to choose from, did that specifically to try and make up for the fact that being evil is hard in BG1. If you are really evil, you're constantly getting attacked by massive parties of mercenaries.
If I happened to be roleplaying an intelligent evil person, I would absolutely hate Minsc. I would hire the Duergar Mercenary that Viconia is hanging out with.
True, but hating or not hating is irreverent to seeing their use as a tool, particularly in a war. In fact you could see Minsc as an assest, much less likely to betray you and ready to sacrifice himself for you. His value outweighes any personal emotions or despisement your PC would have. A manipulating evil mage would look coldy at what use things are to them, whether s/he likes them or not, and then proceed accordingly, if that means Minsc is more effective and useful and they need to make sure they don't murder everyone (which doesn't fit an up and coming manipulative evil character anyway) then so be it.
But Minsc's use as a tool is severely hampered by:
1) His stupidity 2) His morality 3) Boo, who is clearly a cunning and dangerous enemy of evil
There are clearly much more useful tools arround who are not hampered by any of those.
[From a practical point of view, I guess Viconia can tank at a pinch.]
I can understand not being able or not wanting to bring back more classic characters (and their corresponding voice actors), but arbitrarily skewing the pool of characters this way seems like a grave miscalculation.
The problem isn't that you can use Minsc - it's that you shouldn't have to. A linear campaign is one thing, but if Beamdog have engineered this scenario to the extent where you can't even pick party members that match your alignment... well, that's not a good sign.
Create a feature ticket on Redmine and express your views there - how exactly would you like this process to be.
If I happened to be roleplaying an intelligent evil person, I would absolutely hate Minsc. I would hire the Duergar Mercenary that Viconia is hanging out with.
True, but hating or not hating is irreverent to seeing their use as a tool, particularly in a war. In fact you could see Minsc as an assest, much less likely to betray you and ready to sacrifice himself for you. His value outweighes any personal emotions or despisement your PC would have. A manipulating evil mage would look coldy at what use things are to them, whether s/he likes them or not, and then proceed accordingly, if that means Minsc is more effective and useful and they need to make sure they don't murder everyone (which doesn't fit an up and coming manipulative evil character anyway) then so be it.
But Minsc's use as a tool is severely hampered by:
1) His stupidity 2) His morality 3) Boo, who is clearly a cunning and dangerous enemy of evil
There are clearly much more useful tools arround who are not hampered by any of those.
[From a practical point of view, I guess Viconia can tank at a pinch.]
His stupidity could be an asset in manipulating him, making him easy to use and deploy as your mage's protection, and even his morality has it's benifits (you can trust him to watch your back, the way you in RP terms couldn't trust some evil-aligned characters, even as a player if you know they won't actually betray you at the drop of a hat). Both are particularly the case if you see him as only a temporary assest, and your character isn't planning on going mass-murderer anytime soon (which smart, manipulator mage type of CHARNAME probably wouldn't be). He'd think as the campaign wears on better fits would present themselves when s/he needs to be more diabolical in the future.
Boo I'll agree with, you definitely have a problem there, he is evil's most devastating enemy and the true hero of BG . Then again, there is the old adage, keep your friends close, but your enemies closer .
I do understand the frustration with the limitations, but it is a limitation that is present in some form or another with virtually all narrative based RPGs with companion NPCs in them to form a party wIth (even BG1 unless you know where to go, and definitely BG2), none give you every type of class and disposition/alignment to pick from at the beginning (usually you have just one or at best two options). And it would seem a bit strained to me just to have all potential companion characters just gathered in Baldur's Gate at the beginning rather then having be in the middle of doing their own things or in other situations that weave into the main story.
That is subjective I realize, but I would rather have the restriction and retain those better charaterization and narrative advantages (and the illusion they are characters with they own lives and aims) than the convenience of having then all gathered at the starting zone.
Well that's my take, for what it's worth (which I doubt is much ).
@Fardragon They should have added both of them, not just one. Safana for her thieving skills and Shar-Teel for her warrior skills. Instead we got just the biy crazy. *Sigh*
@Fardragon They should have added both of them, not just one. Safana for her thieving skills and Shar-Teel for her warrior skills. Instead we got just the biy crazy. *Sigh*
We need to accept that without unlimited resources, they have to limit the number of NPCs.
The advantage of Shar-Teel is she can be a tank OR a thief, so adds flexibility for no extra resources.
Evil gets shafted a lot in BG. The problem here could have largely been alleviated by just swapping Edwin with Dorn. You get Baeloth at about the same time so you don't really need both evil mages at the same time, Dorn is more urgent. Even a neutral fighter could have been a bit more usable (Jaheira about as late, and drags along her goody hubby). NPCs with interesting personalities are great, but I guess balance wasn't really in the design priorities.
Montaron or Shar-Teel could both have been good additions as evil options for fighting and thieving. I guess the problem is Montaron means Xzar, and I don't think yet another evil mage would be so great (especially since the other 2 are much better), and imagine how much they would need to change the personality of Shar-Teel. Imagine how much people would scream about that.
It's would have been fairly easy to avoid this situation by bringing back Shar-Teel rather than Safina though.
But then a good aligned character or natural CHARNAME who isn't a theif or multi/dual thief has her as their only option (it's true they will be able to get Glint later but if the player doesn't know that it doesn't help, nor does it help in Baldur's Gate), same situation different alignment/class unfortunately.
It's would have been fairly easy to avoid this situation by bringing back Shar-Teel rather than Safina though.
But then a good aligned character or natural CHARNAME who isn't a theif or multi/dual thief has her as their only option (it's true they will be able to get Glint later but if the player doesn't know that it doesn't help, nor does it help in Baldur's Gate), same situation different alignment/class unfortunately.
You can get Glint almost as soon as you can get Safana. There isn't a huge need for a thief at that stage anyway (no traps, minimal locks - Minsc can bash - and with refugees everywhere, you can't really stealth - and Minsc does that too). It would basically be the same situation we have with clerics (evil gets Viconia and good has to wait for Glint) it isn't much of a wait and not a big deal. At least not compared to having to wait until halfway through the game for a fighter, or not getting a complete party at all.
It's would have been fairly easy to avoid this situation by bringing back Shar-Teel rather than Safina though.
But then a good aligned character or natural CHARNAME who isn't a theif or multi/dual thief has her as their only option (it's true they will be able to get Glint later but if the player doesn't know that it doesn't help, nor does it help in Baldur's Gate), same situation different alignment/class unfortunately.
You can get Glint almost as soon as you can get Safana. There isn't a huge need for a thief at that stage anyway (no traps, minimal locks - Minsc can bash - and with refugees everywhere, you can't really stealth - and Minsc does that too). It would basically be the same situation we have with clerics (evil gets Viconia and good has to wait for Glint) it isn't much of a wait and not a big deal. At least not compared to having to wait until halfway through the game for a fighter, or not getting a complete party at all.
Yes but the key point is if you know that, without spoilers you don't know it, or when you will get a thief, or cleric character whose alignment, disposition or character matches your CHARNAME will be. With the situation being what it is you take who you need out of limited choices. In the end this situation could be multiplied to quite a number of class/alignment/dispositions, and the only solution would be to have all companions all just waiting in Baldur's Gate just waiting of CHARNAME to pick them up, rather then being in the middle of doing their own thing and given the illusion of having their own lives and goals which weave into the story of CHARNAME at that point. As I said above, it eould seem a bit strained to me to have all pontential companions gathered in Baldur's Gate, and retain the better characterization and narrative advantages the current situation aford over the convenience of having all potential companion NPCs at the starting point. It is worth the limitation to me given what would have to be sacrificed, so I understand but I disagree.
And it is this way in pretty much all party-based RPGs that offer companion NPCs that have full characterization and their own arcs and narratives over those you create yourself in games such as the IWD games which does avoid said situation at a price (no companion NPCs but a party of player created PCs). Something like this would be the easiest way around it and you can do it in BG but it isn't worth it to me (nor would be the effect in most cases on companion narrative just to have them hanging around the starting area for CHARNAME's convenience rather than giving the illusion of pursuing their own lives and agendas).
Yes but the key point is if you know that, without spoilers you don't know it, or when you will get a thief, or cleric character whose alignment, disposition or character matches your CHARNAME will be.
You still have options, though. Evil characters don't have to let Jaheira and Minsc out of their cages in BG2; and if they do, they don't have to keep them because Dorn, Korgan and Viconia are all easily recruited right at the start. The same is true for BG1: the moment you're out of Candlekeep, you have unrestricted access to Ajantis, Viconia, Xzar and Montaron, Imoen, Safana, Shar-Teel, etc. Even if you're playing for the first time and you don't know who any of these people are, you still have some kind of control over a basic balanced party before the story really kicks off.
Shunting SoD's only Evil fighter-class to a midway point means you either have to compromise on party members for a substantial portion of the game, or just not play as anything other than a fighter-class if you're Evil.
This problem is compounded by the fact that unlike BG1 and BG2, you can't backtrack - it's not like you can speed ahead, pick up Dorn, and then go back to face challenges in previous areas.
Create a feature ticket on Redmine and express your views there - how exactly would you like this process to be.
I'll express my views where I damn well please, thanks.
You're free to express them anywhere. I just wanted to point out that a redmine ticket is a guarantee your request will be looked at and if you create one it will help to make a game better.
Yes but the key point is if you know that, without spoilers you don't know it, or when you will get a thief, or cleric character whose alignment, disposition or character matches your CHARNAME will be.
You still have options, though. Evil characters don't have to let Jaheira and Minsc out of their cages in BG2; and if they do, they don't have to keep them because Dorn, Korgan and Viconia are all easily recruited right at the start. The same is true for BG1: the moment you're out of Candlekeep, you have unrestricted access to Ajantis, Viconia, Xzar and Montaron, Imoen, Safana, Shar-Teel, etc. Even if you're playing for the first time and you don't know who any of these people are, you still have some kind of control over a basic balanced party before the story really kicks off.
Shunting SoD's only Evil fighter-class to a midway point means you either have to compromise on party members for a substantial portion of the game, or just not play as anything other than a fighter-class if you're Evil.
This problem is compounded by the fact that unlike BG1 and BG2, you can't backtrack - it's not like you can speed ahead, pick up Dorn, and then go back to face challenges in previous areas.
The back tracking thing is a problem I agree, though agaih this us something facing other classes depending on their alignment, so it's something the set-up leaves for people. But I assume you can't return to the first camoing area by the time you move to the 3 maps Dorn is found in (not sure myself, I haven't tired to go back there yet), that I agree shouldn't have been implemented. I generally think backtracking should have been allowed, even by using 'teleporter rings' or some such to maintwin a illusion of providing in-game instant travel to earlier sections (because if time urgencies in a war campaign) or something similar.
That is something I agree with, though with BG2 you can leave Jaheira and Minsc (and Yoshimo) but it does make the whole starter base of Irenicus's dungeon dufficult, particularly of some classes (I have done a few times particularly pre-SoD where I just decided that Minsc and/Jaheira and co didn't journey with this version of CHARNAME and weren't there, but then again I often use dungeons be gone mod so it's not really an issue in those places). It's also true you have allot of freedom to find people in BG1, but without an idea where to find other options than the ones suggedted, you can (particularly as a first time player) get into allot of trouble (well apart from a certain mage assassin just before Jaheira and Khalid, particularly if you don't take Zxar and Montaron, I often don't, so usually just CHARNAME and Imoen at that point - I always take Imoen, can't bring myself to be nasty to her - which relates to the point), but then that can be part of the fun . That said you do have freedom to run around looking for people, BG2 is a little more restricted with more gated areas but offered better, deeper and more rounded characters as a result.
But despite my rambling I see your point about the inability to go back, and agree that is a deficiency that hopefully will be corrected in a patch (I know a mod can, but I guess for tablet users that won't help). Also with Dorn, without spoiling anything, I'll just say I was surprised the method getting him didn't spark a large fight and it would be more believable to have found him in a different area in a smaller guarded area or a place after crusaders had been driven from the field (perhaps at the first bridge).
I think people are understating the care with which the original BG1 npcs where placed. If you follow the main plot breadcrumbs, you can expect encounter npcs for each major role suitible for good or evil parties pretty early in the game. Good tank: Khalid, evil tank: Kaigan; good thief: Imoen, evil thief: Monteron; neutral healers: Jalhera and Branwyn; good mages: Dynahair, Xan, evil mages: Xzar and Edwin.
Kaigan, despite being in an early area, is actually quite difficult to find if you don't know he's there, and you're not into the habit of going into buildings for no reason. Other than a map marker that reads "Kagain's Shop," he's pretty much invisible as his shop doesn't even have a visible door for you to enter.
Shawne: I wouldn't be, but say LG was my first playthrough, and my next was evil and I were hunting for a tank. Without google fu, it's reasonable to assume a player might miss him on the first five or six trips through the city.
This is all pointless hypothetical discussion. My original point still stands: He isn't exactly thrown in your face as an obvious Evil tank. He's tucked away out of sight in a building you might never check. I'd agree he'd be the obvious Evil Tank if he was, say, in Feldepost's Inn.
I think since EE has map markers, it's reasonable to assume that new players will go to all of the places marked 'shop'. A lawful character might not break into homes, but walking into shops isn't a crime (unless it's closed I guess). At the very least they should be looking see what they can buy/sell.
From the original BG I agree it's easy to miss. Back then, even after I knew about him, I still had trouble finding the place again, especially since the door isn't even visible without waving the cursor around randomly.
I'm definitely not looking for full spoilers, but do dialogue choices with the EE characters in a BGEE play through have any relevance? Also, do characters in (or out) of the party from the imported save keep the changes you've made to them in the BGEE play through?
I'm definitely not looking for full spoilers, but do dialogue choices with the EE characters in a BGEE play through have any relevance? Also, do characters in (or out) of the party from the imported save keep the changes you've made to them in the BGEE play through?
If you transition directly from BG1 to SoD, NPCs will retain the gear and skill choices you made when you last saw them.
Comments
1) His stupidity
2) His morality
3) Boo, who is clearly a cunning and dangerous enemy of evil
There are clearly much more useful tools arround who are not hampered by any of those.
[From a practical point of view, I guess Viconia can tank at a pinch.]
Boo I'll agree with, you definitely have a problem there, he is evil's most devastating enemy and the true hero of BG
I do understand the frustration with the limitations, but it is a limitation that is present in some form or another with virtually all narrative based RPGs with companion NPCs in them to form a party wIth (even BG1 unless you know where to go, and definitely BG2), none give you every type of class and disposition/alignment to pick from at the beginning (usually you have just one or at best two options). And it would seem a bit strained to me just to have all potential companion characters just gathered in Baldur's Gate at the beginning rather then having be in the middle of doing their own things or in other situations that weave into the main story.
That is subjective I realize, but I would rather have the restriction and retain those better charaterization and narrative advantages (and the illusion they are characters with they own lives and aims) than the convenience of having then all gathered at the starting zone.
Well that's my take, for what it's worth (which I doubt is much
They should have added both of them, not just one. Safana for her thieving skills and Shar-Teel for her warrior skills. Instead we got just the biy crazy. *Sigh*
The advantage of Shar-Teel is she can be a tank OR a thief, so adds flexibility for no extra resources.
Montaron or Shar-Teel could both have been good additions as evil options for fighting and thieving. I guess the problem is Montaron means Xzar, and I don't think yet another evil mage would be so great (especially since the other 2 are much better), and imagine how much they would need to change the personality of Shar-Teel. Imagine how much people would scream about that.
And it is this way in pretty much all party-based RPGs that offer companion NPCs that have full characterization and their own arcs and narratives over those you create yourself in games such as the IWD games which does avoid said situation at a price (no companion NPCs but a party of player created PCs). Something like this would be the easiest way around it and you can do it in BG but it isn't worth it to me (nor would be the effect in most cases on companion narrative just to have them hanging around the starting area for CHARNAME's convenience rather than giving the illusion of pursuing their own lives and agendas).
Anyway that is how I see it.
Shunting SoD's only Evil fighter-class to a midway point means you either have to compromise on party members for a substantial portion of the game, or just not play as anything other than a fighter-class if you're Evil.
This problem is compounded by the fact that unlike BG1 and BG2, you can't backtrack - it's not like you can speed ahead, pick up Dorn, and then go back to face challenges in previous areas.
That is something I agree with, though with BG2 you can leave Jaheira and Minsc (and Yoshimo) but it does make the whole starter base of Irenicus's dungeon dufficult, particularly of some classes (I have done a few times particularly pre-SoD where I just decided that Minsc and/Jaheira and co didn't journey with this version of CHARNAME and weren't there, but then again I often use dungeons be gone mod so it's not really an issue in those places). It's also true you have allot of freedom to find people in BG1, but without an idea where to find other options than the ones suggedted, you can (particularly as a first time player) get into allot of trouble (well apart from a certain mage assassin just before Jaheira and Khalid, particularly if you don't take Zxar and Montaron, I often don't, so usually just CHARNAME and Imoen at that point - I always take Imoen, can't bring myself to be nasty to her - which relates to the point), but then that can be part of the fun
But despite my rambling I see your point about the inability to go back, and agree that is a deficiency that hopefully will be corrected in a patch (I know a mod can, but I guess for tablet users that won't help). Also with Dorn, without spoiling anything, I'll just say I was surprised the method getting him didn't spark a large fight and it would be more believable to have found him in a different area in a smaller guarded area or a place after crusaders had been driven from the field (perhaps at the first bridge).
I found him on my first playthrough in 1998, and his shop didn't even have a map marker back then.
This is all pointless hypothetical discussion. My original point still stands: He isn't exactly thrown in your face as an obvious Evil tank. He's tucked away out of sight in a building you might never check. I'd agree he'd be the obvious Evil Tank if he was, say, in Feldepost's Inn.
From the original BG I agree it's easy to miss. Back then, even after I knew about him, I still had trouble finding the place again, especially since the door isn't even visible without waving the cursor around randomly.
The only NPCs I didn't find first time through are Skie, Shar-Teel and Viconia.