Adding a challenge without metagaming

Comments

• OlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,075

  July 2016

  I thought the Silke fight was cool. It's rare in games for there to be a battle against a much higher-level opponent which isn't supposed to be a forced-loss battle.

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• FinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455

  July 2016

  You might be expected to see her at level 1 but not necessarily fight her.

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• redline Member Posts: 296

  July 2016

  FinneousPJ said:

  You might be expected to see her at level 1 but not necessarily fight her.

  That's exactly my point, though. How should a player be expected to know that? "I shouldn't talk to this obvious quest-giving NPC, because it will set off a series of events that will lead to either reputation loss or my grisly death". If Silke were wandering the wilderness, that'd be one thing; the game's structure generally pushes you in a direction that ramps up the difficult in a reasonable way, and diverting from that obvious path will have consequences in many open-map games.
  
  Silke is in the very first town, though, so only a player who knows what to expect will willingly avoid her (why does she need bodyguards, anyway? She could slaughter the whole town herself). Similar (but less extreme) situation with the post Nashkel cyricists, or Nimbul; I don't feel like I'm being tactically challenged by high-level opponents getting dumped on me at unexpected times. Instead, I feel like it's only a challenge for my memory: if I don't remember exactly where to prebuff/take the long way around, I'm going to get walloped, and while that's certainly more difficult than the core game, it's missing a strategic element that I'm craving from an AI-based difficulty mod.
  
  I really enjoyed SoD's encounter design, and I'm guessing that it's because the whole thing was built from the ground up with decent AI in mind, and so there weren't as many bizarre difficulty spikes like this. A setting that doesn't just beef up the original game's AI, but which also rebalances the challenges to follow a more reasonable difficulty curve, would be awesome for scrubs like me.

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• DJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300

  July 2016

  I think that both Silke, Nimbul or the mercenaries who hunt you are part of the success of the original BG - they're tough and relatively optional (and yes, they'll wipe the floor with your head in a fair fight), but it also lets you learn a tactic or two . The amazons , for instance, are armed with poisonous darts, fire arrows and divine magic , enough to strike a low level party in a couple of rounds, so thta's when you've got to learn how to use area spells properly, or how to run and separate your enemies... It might metagaming today, but you had to learn it first, and in the end you felt that the magical stuff and XP are well worth the effort.

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• dunbar Member Posts: 1,603

  July 2016 edited July 2016

  For me that Silke encounter has "Trap!" written all over it right from the start. It's pretty much a given in the D&D world that if someone offers you good money for a seemingly simple task then you'd better start watching your back or walking away.
  Which is why I always save before initiating conversation with a 'named' character that I haven't spoken to before so that I don't get sucked into traps like this.
  And if any more proof were required that this was a cunningly designed trap set by a devious DM, look at how convenient the nearby Inn is where you can rest to recover after your fight with Silke - only to be attacked by a bounty hunter as soon as you enter.
  All in all I think it's a good, but steep, learning curve.

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• TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277

  July 2016 edited July 2016

  I use SCS, but I restrict myself further by adding a bit of role playing into it - I try to avoid resting in supposed 'dangerous' locations like dungeons unless I'm on the brink of death, and rely on potions and spells to heal between fights. It may not sound like much but it can be brutal - you're often not fully healthy and when you know there's a tougher fight ahead you'll want to conserve your important spells which makes every fight before it harder. I've actually gotten better as a result - in my last BG1 Blade run I managed to go through Cloakwood Mines without resting and defeated Davaeorn on my first attempt, which I've never managed before.
  
  Also, I turn off rest until fully healed and never rest multiple times in one session unless I'm using an inn - I use temples to heal and pick up junk loot to scrape together more gold for healing. It feels more sensible and is a lot more fun.
  
  I know it's not much to do with what's been said above but if you want a challenge that's not too restrictive these are some ideas worth trying out.

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• redline Member Posts: 296

  July 2016

  Artemius_I said:

  I use SCS, but I restrict myself further by adding a bit of role playing into it - I try to avoid resting in supposed 'dangerous' locations like dungeons unless I'm on the brink of death, and rely on potions and spells to heal between fights. It may not sound like much but it can be brutal - you're often not fully healthy and when you know there's a tougher fight ahead you'll want to conserve your important spells which makes every fight before it harder. I've actually gotten better as a result - in my last BG1 Blade run I managed to go through Cloakwood Mines without resting and defeated Davaeorn on my first attempt, which I've never managed before.
  
  Also, I turn off rest until fully healed and never rest multiple times in one session unless I'm using an inn - I use temples to heal and pick up junk loot to scrape together more gold for healing. It feels more sensible and is a lot more fun.
  
  I know it's not much to do with what's been said above but if you want a challenge that's not too restrictive these are some ideas worth trying out.

  I love this play style, and try to do the same: lots of temple usage, no rest spamming, no short-duration prebuffs, and resolving conversations and quests in a way that makes sense, rather than just going for what's most advantageous. It's an approach that has really encouraged the use of stealth and scouting in a way that simply isn't necessary in the base game, but that doesn't help when dealing with non-hostile NPCs.
  
  I guess that's part of why SCS was especially brutal for me: I prefer to avoid casting Power Word: Reload at all costs, and so situations where my only solution is just "I'll just avoid this NPC/area for... some reason" really breaks that roleplaying-inspired style.

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• jtth Member Posts: 171

  July 2016 edited July 2016

  redline said:

  Artemius_I said:

  I use SCS, but I restrict myself further by adding a bit of role playing into it - I try to avoid resting in supposed 'dangerous' locations like dungeons unless I'm on the brink of death, and rely on potions and spells to heal between fights. It may not sound like much but it can be brutal - you're often not fully healthy and when you know there's a tougher fight ahead you'll want to conserve your important spells which makes every fight before it harder. I've actually gotten better as a result - in my last BG1 Blade run I managed to go through Cloakwood Mines without resting and defeated Davaeorn on my first attempt, which I've never managed before.
  
  Also, I turn off rest until fully healed and never rest multiple times in one session unless I'm using an inn - I use temples to heal and pick up junk loot to scrape together more gold for healing. It feels more sensible and is a lot more fun.
  
  I know it's not much to do with what's been said above but if you want a challenge that's not too restrictive these are some ideas worth trying out.

  I love this play style, and try to do the same: lots of temple usage, no rest spamming, no short-duration prebuffs, and resolving conversations and quests in a way that makes sense, rather than just going for what's most advantageous. It's an approach that has really encouraged the use of stealth and scouting in a way that simply isn't necessary in the base game, but that doesn't help when dealing with non-hostile NPCs.
  
  I guess that's part of why SCS was especially brutal for me: I prefer to avoid casting Power Word: Reload at all costs, and so situations where my only solution is just "I'll just avoid this NPC/area for... some reason" really breaks that roleplaying-inspired style.

  This probably isn't what you want to hear, but I alleviate this feeling a bit by powerleveling in the beginning by myself. Go kill basilisks, or just give yourself 30k XP and don't worry about the basilisk garden.

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