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Why are ranged weapons so bad in BG2?

IhatememesIhatememes Member Posts: 29
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
Was it intentional or some sort of oversight?

BG1: Composite Longbow +1 , +2 thaco, +3 damage
Arrow +1 +1 thaco, +1 damage

BG2: Composite Longbow +2 , +3 thaco, +1 damage
Arrow +1 , +1 thaco

Kivan with specialization and Composite Longbow +1 hits like autosniper in CS:GO and crits just kill people instantly.
Mazzy with Grand mastery and a super-powered shortbow of legends is a peashooter.

I don't see how ranged weapons are even viable in BG2 unless you're an Archer.
Archer in BG1 is probably more OP than the pantaloon golem suit.

Comments

  • JouniJouni Member Posts: 50
    One archer is rather pointless, but almost every character can learn to use ranged weapons effectively.

    The main benefit of ranged weapons is that they are ranged. You can quickly concentrate all firepower on any single target, scoring perhaps 10-15 hits per round. Alternatively, you can distribute the firepower to suppress a bunch of enemy spellcasters.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    The problem is largely because of the comparison, and the disproportionate power of ranged in BG1 (it's stupid good).

    In BG2, to compete with the sick melee weapons you need some sort of gimmick for your ranged - i.e. some sort of damage bonus. That can be Archer, or it can be something like thrown/sling with STR etc. Without that, you have a really hard time competing, but it's not as bad as people might make it out to be. Unless you're in a min/max environment where damage matters, it won't really make much of a dent even if you use ranged "unbuffed".
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Another major drawback to ranged weapons is that they don't bestow the launcher's enchantment bonus on the ammunition, which means that in order to damage a creature that's protected against nonmagical weapons, you need to stock up on +1 ammunition.

    And, yes, There's A Mod For That.

    This disadvantage primarily impacts BGII because the enemies in the first game aren't typically protected in that way.
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    There are several reasons for the ranged weapon discrepancy between BG1 and BG2:

    - BG1 is a low level campaign. Warriors don't get their extra attacks just yet while bows get 2 APR from the get go.
    - In BG1 almost everything has low HP so they generally die before they can reach you.
    - BG2 gives you plenty of Strength-enhancing items to make melee very powerful.
    - BG2 gives you plenty of magical weapons with cool effects while ranged weapons and ammunitions are nerfed.

    For the record, original BG1 also had much slower walking speeds than BG2, so ranged was even better. It isn't the case with the EE though.
  • IhatememesIhatememes Member Posts: 29
    Yeah I get that BG1 enemies have lower hp but Mazzy still does less damage per shot than Kivan, despite grand mastery and a +4 bow with great magic arrows, it's strange.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Ihatememes said:

    Yeah I get that BG1 enemies have lower hp but Mazzy still does less damage per shot than Kivan, despite grand mastery and a +4 bow with great magic arrows, it's strange.

    Is Kivan perchance attacking his favored enemy? Rangers get a +4 bonus to damage against their favored enemy.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Mazzy doing less damage than Kivan is impossible if she's using the Gesen Bow.

    Her damage output per hit should be 1d8+2+5+1d6 if you're using normal arrows with the Gesen Bow, or 15 damage per hit. Level 9 Kivan at the end of BG1 should be doing 1d6+5+3 if he's using normal arrows with the best longbow, or 11.5 per hit.

    Kivan will only do more damage than Mazzy if you're using a mod to make him into an Archer or if you're giving him special equipment (Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, magical arrows), without doing the same for Mazzy.

    The Tuigan Bow and Gesen Bow might not be as strong as some BG2 melee weapons, but they're definitely stronger than any BG1 ranged weapon.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited July 2016
    @semiticgod With the numbers you give it isn't impossible. Mazzy min damage is 1 +2 +5 +1 = 9 while Kivan max damage is 6 +5 +3 = 14. Therefore it is possible for Kivan to deal more damage. What you meant to say is Mazzy deals more damage on average.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @FinneousPJ: I was talking about averages because Ihatememes was talking about averages.

    "Mazzy still does less damage per shot than Kivan, despite grand mastery and a +4 bow with great magic arrows"

    If we're not talking about averages, it's also possible for Mazzy to do more damage than Minsc, due to chance in damage rolls. Or an unarmed Jan to do more damage than Sarevok, due to chance in attack rolls.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @semiticgod Just keeping the facts straight, my friend. He didn't mention averages and did you, which is why I wanted to clarify this for other readers :)
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    I kind of find this post a little bizarre, I still find range weapons, to DOMINATE in bg2, but I suppose that is IF you know how to make them dominate, no archers are even required to do so to make them good, but that is my opinion I suppose,

    now based on what +4 bow mazzy is using, which one is it? because longbows have no to damage bonus, and neither do arrows ( unlike their bg1 counterpart) and that is probably while kivan is doing more damage, but if you have the tuigan bow on mazzy, her attacks per round will POOP on kivans, kivan is only going to hit 3 APR, while mazzy will hit 4.5 APR

    so even if mazzy does a couple less damage per hit, she is going to get way more hits in and still do more damage per round, especially if you give her improved haste with that bow, 9 APR, no luck for kivan having that
  • ameliabogginsameliaboggins Member Posts: 287
    probably the differnce is AC

    mobs in bg2 have better ac, as they are on ave higher lvl.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited July 2016
    Bows and xbows and their ammo do not gain corresponding damage bonuses for their enchantment levels in bg2, for some reason the devs thought it better this way for balance. Slings still get damage bonuses for their enchantment levels, AND a strength bonus. Imagine we are only proficient with a sling and short bow. So a sling+4 with +4 bullet with 19 strength (girdle) will do 1d4+16 damage! That is 17-20 damage per hit. While a shortbow+3 with arrow +3 will still do 1-6 base damage which is ridiculous. And yes, bows have +1 apr but in ToB you can use whirlwind attacks with that sling for up to 200 damage per round, which makes the apr bonus moot.

    Bows are still superiour for tactical purposes, and for a single classed bard or thief:they have no other way to raise their base apr, and acid/flame/ice/poison/dispel arrows are VERY useful for disrupting stone skinned casters and finishing trolls. For a fighter a sling is more devastating damage wise with whirlwind.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    It seems that bows/crossbows were balanced around Archers. With an Archer, they are still devastatingly effective, particularly in the early/mid game (but still great at the end, too). However on anyone that's not an Archer (or a Swashbuckler) they do seem a bit lacking in oomph. Problem is, if they did more damage per hit by, say, allowing +dmg based on ammo level or some such, then Archers would be even MORE effective and completely shatter things left and right.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited July 2016
    They're definitely not bad, especially once you consider how a dedicated ranged weapon user doesn't lose any attacks in actual combat since he/she is just standing still. Many unique weapon ammo are also game changers eg. arrows of biting can potentially shut down spellcasters.

    If you factor in the Sling of Everard + warrior HLAs/strength buffs for NPCs who wish to be dedicated range weapons users for late game, or ranged weapon effects like Melf's Minute Meteors or Energy Blades for arcane casters, then you might realize ranged weapons are actually rather competitive in BG2.
    Finally, consider that NPCs like Imoen/Nalia/Edwin/Jan/etc. are already incredibly powerful spellcasting-wise. Access to more powerful enchanted bows/crossbows/throwing daggers/darts/slings only makes them even more powerful. Imagine something like Icewind Dale's the Hammer (base 4 attacks per round) on Jan. If more weapon like that existed, then why even bother adding warrior classes to your group?

    As for your original comparison, it's a bad (bordering on ignorant) one. BG1 is also a game where enemy mobs can potentially kill you in one hit. It only makes sense that your attacks can also kill them in a few hits, regardless of where its coming from.
    If your Mazzy is underperforming then you need to address how you are handling her and what gear she's using. Don't blame ranged weapons.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Enemies have higher AC and a lot more HP in BG2. I think that might be one reason for bows not being as great as in BG1.
  • TredvoltTredvolt Member Posts: 62
    To be honest I didn't read all the comments so people may have already said this but I'll respond to the original post with my own thoughts.

    First off - Are you crazy? (respectfully)

    I've optimized and optimized and optimized past what anyone would ever consider a healthy use of even free time. My BG2 addiction is a source more than a little concern to my best friends. You can check out my posts which aren't as numerous as some of the crazies but are filled with strat discussion and refinement.

    ANYWAYS

    Ranged weapons are (in my not so humble opinion) if anything overpowered in BG2. I finish the game in LOB within 28 game days. I use ranged weapons far more than melee. I would honestly recommend nerfing (slings, archers, throwing daggers, skalds) in order to bring some more relevant choice to the game.

    I rush to Firkraag at a low level - use a ton of potions and kill his 600 hit point version in 3 rounds of ranged attacks with a 4 person party. I've looted his corpse and left the room and am half way back to the cabin before my bless spell wears off.

    I wouldn't argue against the fact that RELATIVELY ranged weapons are even stronger in the first game, but do not make the mistake of ignoring them in BG2.

    If you are curious about my optimizations just look for some of my older posts because I don't want to type 3 pages again on how many advantages ranged weapons have in actual game play.

    In summary - if you are optimizing around kill speed - ease and efficiency, you'll definitely run a lot of ranged weapon users with maybe 1 tank and summons (for LOB). If you aren't running SCS or LOB then you don't even need tanks or summons just kill everything before it has a chance to react.



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