Player character shapeshifters/werewolves in BG:EE
BelgarathMTH
Member Posts: 5,653
Hello, what is the current state of shapeshifters/werewolves in vanilla BG:EE? Did Beamdog ever fix it to where the greater werewolf form works like it says in the description? Also, how did they implement the leveling of the werewolf forms?
I recently started binge watching the MTV show "Teen Wolf" from season 1, and I've been surprised how much I like it. That has inspired me to want to try a shapeshifter run in BG:EE, as it's the only game I know where you can play a werewolf. I also think it would be an interesting thing to roleplay by self-restricting myself to only take werewolf form out of sight of townspeople, lest I be mobbed with torches and pitchforks. (Or hunted down by hunters, like in the TV show.) My party members would be presumed to know about my "problem", and to accept it.
I would like to do it without Tweaks or SCS shapeshifter revisions, because I think the wolfpaw thing that lets you cast spells while in werewolf form is overpowered.
The shapeshifter kit in original BG was bugged to heck and back, thus necessitating one of the two mods. Did BG:EE fix it?
I recently started binge watching the MTV show "Teen Wolf" from season 1, and I've been surprised how much I like it. That has inspired me to want to try a shapeshifter run in BG:EE, as it's the only game I know where you can play a werewolf. I also think it would be an interesting thing to roleplay by self-restricting myself to only take werewolf form out of sight of townspeople, lest I be mobbed with torches and pitchforks. (Or hunted down by hunters, like in the TV show.) My party members would be presumed to know about my "problem", and to accept it.
I would like to do it without Tweaks or SCS shapeshifter revisions, because I think the wolfpaw thing that lets you cast spells while in werewolf form is overpowered.
The shapeshifter kit in original BG was bugged to heck and back, thus necessitating one of the two mods. Did BG:EE fix it?
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Slightly off topic, but I enjoyed my time as a werewolf in Skyrim. If you haven't tried that, it might be worth a go too.
If you're planning to play the Shapeshifter at a somewhat later point, the upcoming mod of @subtledoctor and @Grammarsalad "Faiths and Powers" may be of interest to you. While I don't know the details, I'm pretty sure their take on the "Shapeshifter" will be quite different from SCS/Tweaks. Or any other currently available werewolf mods for that matter.
As for ww forms, i think it was balance descision, or laziness to create a bad implementrd shapeshift forms. And the weapons enchantment should be more higher than +2, it depends on hit dice in pnp. Btw its easy to implement the ww correct stats if you want to, maybe onl add immunity to normal weapons at lvl 10 as totemic druids spirit aninals.
My question was whether BG:EE fixed the bug such that the kit actually does what it says on the tin.
Lastm i think a greater redesign thread will be nice, to not balance classes, just to not be underpowered at tob cause of unlogical descisions from the original authors, and we saw some way, egz: beamdog nerf stupifier at first game, or poison weapon tweak.
The misconception is in thinking that it's a normal bloke who's one trick is shifting into a werewolf. If that were true, the class would be gimped. But it's also a fully powered druid.
I haven't played on through SoD yet. But my experience was that in BG1, it was like having god mode enabled. Outclassed my fighters through it, just the form, not counting the druid side.
In BG2, fighters quickly caught up, but the form was still potent, and I was coming into my own as a caster. In ToB, fighters were smoking the greater form, but it was still a potent and reliable fighting form for a caster, letting me instantly melee and tank when needed. However, my druid casting was getting mighty powerful, and again it started to feel like god mode a bit.
I think most of the vitriol has come from people who have never played one.
TL;DR: BG1 - dominant
SoA - competitive
ToB - dominant
The above only relevant if played to the strengths of the class.
Edit: changed "ass caster" to "as a caster". Bloody phone.
There were no kits in vanilla BG1 (thus, there weren't questions about a werewolf form), the kits were introduced by vanilla BG2. But the description of the kit (have a look here, here or here didn't mention anything about details of shapeshift forms, nor about MR, not about magic weapon rating.
There was a manual with BG2, but it didn't mention it either.
But authors of the BG2Tweaks readme have mentioned "You Were Supposed to Receive... You Actually Received...", which caused a wrong assumption between players. As @subtledoctor says, the stats of the shapeshift forms have not been meant to match enemy werewolves, and the stats that readme mentions are the stats of enemy werewolves.
The BG2Tweaks version (just as the one included into SCS) was supposed to be used in games with difficulty-enhancing mods, such as Tactics and SCS, this is why that component is OP for normal games.
I would say that for BG1, a standard werewolf form available at the 1st level in Candlekeep, is quite powerful, without any changes. As for BG2, yes, maybe it could be tweaked a bit, but not as much as it's the case with BG2Tweaks (and SCS). I've played with Improved shapeshifting from SCS and have come to a conclusion that even with full SCS the improvements are too much. Maybe for a Tactics game it should be alright.
So, no, Beamdog hasn't implemented an improving shapeshifter component.
So, the mod creators were actually trying to make the player character werewolf form as powerful as the .cre werewolves in the game.
I'll probably just play the vanilla EE version, then. My idea is to roleplay a young werewolf who is struggling with the whole thing, like on the TV show. I don't need the character to be as powerful as the other werewolves. In fact, for my idea, he shouldn't be.
I also think it ties in well with the overall Bhaalspawn story arc. I can pretend that he discovers in BG2 that he can also shapeshift into the Slayer, which could be reinterpreted for my story as a more powerful wereform, but one that tends to go out of control. And then of course, he discovers the whole "avatar of an evil god of murder" business, and doesn't want that.
Thanks for clearing all this up for me on the mechanics of the kit.
If memory serves right even Cernd hints in his dialogues about his daily conflicting selvse. It's downright strange for only CHARNAME to be in full control of the beast within. Druidic training or not.
So it would make more sense to me if the Shapeshifter had an X % chance to loose control the longer he/she remains in Werewolf form... especially at night. I imagine either falling into a state of berserk, or panic, depending on the amount of remaining HP, could spice the kit up rather nicely. Both in the mechanically and thematically side of things.
As others have noted the weimer mod is balanced around the use of the tactics mod. The regeneration rate the greater form gets alone makes it unbalanced for SoA.
Every shapechange form (except for maybe the higher level druid hla's) is different from their wild counterparts. The shapeshifter's forms are not unique in that regard. So it not matching up with other shapeshift/shapechange forms is consistent with how the series has handled them.
"The animal form a druid assumes can vary
from the size of a bullfrog or small bird to that
of a black bear. Unless noted otherwise, the
druid can assume only the form of a normal
(real-world) animal in normal proportions. A
druid in animal form takes on all the beast's
physical characteristics- movement rate,
abilities, Armor Class (AC), number of
attacks, and damage per attack. The druid
retains original hit point and saving throw
values."
So the druid retains only saves and hp, everything else should be the same as the animals, i know baldurs gate is a modded adnd game, but there were basic rules, and nobody ever stated that shapeshift in this games is use different rules than adnd 2.