"Help me game the system to gain an unfair advantage that the AI can't use against me, which I could do myself but I don't feel like using my own finger muscles..."
I'm playing my favorite game wrong? I am lazy? Its disrespectful if you ask me. It stopped me from continuing to comment on this thread until I saw today that you had a similar reaction. However, I do not intend to stop communicating with @subtledoctor, I find him overall helpful and usually understanding. Seconding (fourthing) the others, a lot of good faith effort on his and others parts and communication is tricky. Sometimes we write carelessly, and sometimes we're just being plain jerky. I've done it. Lets not write eachother off because of a little crassness once in a while.
That said. I read and like your comments. Definitely don't leave. I like the aura clear autopause idea. I'm with you.
Apologies gladly accepted. It's great to see this commitment to keep a good atmosphere in the forum. I'll be happy to keep participating in this thread and discussing with subtledoctor and everybody else.
As a reminder, the feature request is here in case you want to share your thoughts about it.
@Alonso@mashedtaters I was driven to read this topic by a link from an other one, I resurrect it because I think that there is more to tell about the rounds and their end. Afaik each round has a maximum duration of 6 sec, but it can be less. In each round a character can do 3 types of things. 1-physical attacks, up to his APR eventually increased by spells and items. He can do this only one time per round, he can not perform some of the APR, do something other and then continue with the APR. 2- 1 magical action. For magical action is intended casting a spell, using a scroll or potion or using some effect from an item. I think that there are only 2 exceptions, Using a contingency and casting spells while under IA. The aura thing is more a RP flavor than a real thing, a mage can cast a MM in the very end of a round, that he has begun in an other way, and then cast a second MM at the beginning of the new round, a second after, round begun because the 6 secs of the previous are expired. What really count is the 1 magical action for round, not the aura. 3-move around the area.
A character can do all the 3 things in the same round if he does them in the 6 secs available. So he can cast a spell that take 1.5sec, perform his physical attacks for let's say 2 secs and still have other 2.5 secs to move, all in one round. This is the ideal use of a round. Sometimes we mess with it and move around before the APR is fully used, or cast in the middle of a round while we are performing the physical attacks. In those cases understanding when the game decides to start a new round is not simple, sometimes it starts the new round almost immediately, even if the 6 secs are not expired, other times we have to wait that the previous round is concluded. And sometimes a spell can not be completed in the round because the beginning of the round was not triggered by the spell, but by a physical attack and maybe (but I am not sure of that) even by moving around the character.
I hope that this helps to clear the confusion.
As I am here I use extensively autopause, I have it always set for enemy seen, enemy destroyed, trap found, weapon not available (ranged ammunition all used but also equipping in the slot only one arrow for a better control using valuable ammunition like dispelling and exploding arrows) and spell cast. I use less often the autopause on round ended, less often but I use it. And I would like it working more selectively, like having a button that trigger it only for the chars selected when you press that button. So if I want to monitor only my mage and my bard I have just to select those 2, press the button and have the game pause only at the end of their rounds.
I use less often the autopause on round ended, less often but I use it.
As we discussed previously, there is no autopause that pauses the game on round ended. In spite of its name, the "end of round" autopause doesn't pause the game on round ended.
@Alonso true, but it is still usable, to make a Bard sing and attack and many other ways. It requires micro, but is useful even if is bugged. In the Bard example you have to monitor the Bard's attacks and swich him to sing, then you forget about him until his autopause triggers, after a split second you start the APR of the next round and repeat. Not perfect but I use it.
OK, I get it. Sounds like an odd use for a bard, though. I'm currently playing BG2 with a bard (a blade) as the main character and I don't think I'd ever do that with him. When the battle is tough (which is almost always because I play Insane + SCS) I have him casting spells every round and attacking in the interval between the end of a spell and the beginning of the next. Almost any spell is more important than having him sing. When the battle is easy, he just attacks, there's no need to do more. Maybe your strategy is more effective at lower levels, when the bard has very few spells?
No, with a Blade at low levels the best strategy is your one, with a Skald the things can be different. The Blade's song is not very effective, I use it only if there is some problem with fear and the party can not deal with it in other ways (a character with boots of speed running in fear is not an easy target for remove fear). I use the tactic at high levels when the blade gets the improved song (+4,+4,+4 for everyone) and the Blade gets a 10 AC bonus. At that point usually in my party there is at least an other arcane caster, better than the blade in it, who wears the robe, the bard spells are mainly used for pre buffing, remember that he can get an outrageously low AC with few buffs and the song bonus on top. Combat casting for him is situational, but having him tanking (with an AC under the limit of the game) and just a stoneskin and some mirror images) as he bash foe DW Black Razor and SNT (so with 6 apr after few hits) as he make your other characters and summons more resilient and give them a good thac0 and dmg bonus is very effective. Having him attack ranged with the short bows or crossbows while he sing is also effective and a lot easier, even if the EE choice to disable the fake mlee attacks should make the mlee tactic less micro intensive, in the original games is almost a nightmare. The effect of the HLA song is amazing, Thieves benefit from both Thac0 and DMG (when backstabbing), Fighters multiply the DMG bonus as they have high APR, summons, like the Skeletal Warrior or the Aerial Servant, get more resilient cannon fodder and begin to hit often also against strong enemies, a DW Aerie becomes a beast as she sums the benefits of the song with her own self buffs (-11Thaco, +18DMG and maxed DMG roll, with 4APR, 8 if you use also her Simulacrum). Some players think that one more fighter is better for the party then a Blade singing, it is true (if DPR is the only concern) only if the singing Blade is calculated as inactive elsewhere. But if you factor in the fact that singing doesn't prevent the physical attack, while it prevents a magical one like casting, and factor in also the use of F/M Simulacra and summons to rise the number of party members in my experience is the better party buff of the game. Even with a party of 4 is easy for a high level party to have like 50 or more APR for the main battle of the day (mages using MMM or EB, a couple of IH Fighter or F/M Simulacra and an IH Planetar, 4 other hasted summons, 50 APR is a very prudential value). 200 or more DPR is not bad if the singer is only prevented from casting, even if we don't consider the defensive bonuses.
The game shows animations of attacks to make the fight look like a real fight with feints and counter-attacks. In the options is a setting to disable those cosmetic attacks. Then only the REAL attacks are shown.
DW = Dual Welding, using a weapon in the main hand and a second weapon with the other.
About fake attacks @ConjurerDragon is correct. Is a lot easier to control the numbers of the Bard's attacks looking at the animations instead of reading the feedback text that is scrolling so fast. But in not EE is not possible to disable the fake mlee animations so the sing and attack strategy is more difficoult.
@gorgonzola TobEx has a component to disable cosmetic attacks in the original game. It can also do the opposite, transform cosmetic attacks into genuine attack rolls.
@Kurona Thanks! I will install that component, I really need it.
@Alonso First of all in a round a character can do 3 kind of things. 1- move around 2- physical attack, mlee or ranged, up to the APR number. 3- 1 magical action. For magical action is intended casting a spell, but also using a potion, scroll, activate an item like a wand or a special effect from a weapon. Only one magical action is possible for each round (exception for mages with IA active), casting, prevents from drinking a potion and drinking a potion prevents from casting as the only magical action is consumed and you have to wait for an other round. But you can move, physical attack and do a magical action in the same round, if you do them in the 6 secs of its duration. Afaik singing is considered as a magical action so a Bard can cast and attack or sing and attack, but not sing and cast, as 2 different magical actions are involved in the same round.
About "Having him attack ranged with the short bows or crossbows while he sing is also effective and a lot easier" is a problem of micromanagement, not a problem of game mechanics. To have the Bard activate the song at the beginning of the first round and then, after a split second begin the physical attacks, then to count them until the APR is reached is labor intensive, having him at mlee range, maybe moving from an enemy to an other, and more exposed to the enemy's attacks and debuffs make it even more intensive. If the Bard is not needed for tanking or the maximum DPR is not needed usually have him sing and attack ranged is enough, even if the best DPR is obtained when the physical attacks are performed with strong mlee weapons (like Black Razor or CF katana + SNT).
@gorgonzola: It's taken me a while to answer because I spent a lot of time reviewing how the round system works. I think I understand what you mean by attacking while singing, but just to make sure, I'll try to summarize it:
Time=0: You click the sing button and pause as quickly as you can. T~0.1: You order the bard to attack and unpause. T=0.1 to 6: The bard keeps attacking. T=6: The song effect wears off. You click the sing button and pause as quickly as you can. T=6.1: You order the bard to attack, and unpause. T=6.1 to 12: The bard keeps attacking. Etc.
I don't use it as standard, but with some party compositions I turn it on for difficult and engaging fights It's usually better for an experienced player to just tap spacebar though
@gorgonzola: It's taken me a while to answer because I spent a lot of time reviewing how the round system works. I think I understand what you mean by attacking while singing, but just to make sure, I'll try to summarize it:
Time=0: You click the sing button and pause as quickly as you can. T~0.1: You order the bard to attack and unpause. T=0.1 to 6: The bard keeps attacking. T=6: The song effect wears off. You click the sing button and pause as quickly as you can. T=6.1: You order the bard to attack, and unpause. T=6.1 to 12: The bard keeps attacking. Etc.
Is this correct?
Not completely correct afaik, at least with the not EE game, but in EE can be different . * The problem is that is almost impossible to time the 6.00 moment manually and if you are at 5.99 it works, if you are at 6.01 the song does not trigger. So you have to find a way to press the song button a little before 6.00. The way I use is counting the attacks and the autopause is only used to know when the 6.0 moment is reached. So: Time=0: You click the sing button and pause as quickly as you can. T~0.1: You order the bard to attack and unpause. T=0.1 The bard keeps attacking. You have to know the APR of the Bard, let's say that he has 3 APR using the speed short bow, you count his attacks and when the 3rd one is done you click the sing button. T=6: The song effect of the previous round wears off, the autopause triggers and The song effect of the next round begins. At this point you unpause and a split second after at T=6.1: You order the bard to attack, T=6.1 to 12: The bard keeps attacking.
* I am only beginning to experiment with EE now, few quests of the first run done (EE is not on my gaming computer so I can use it only when the rest of the family don't need the one where is installed). I am playing a FMT and I had done the Planar Prison quest as second one after the Circus. There I experimented with Hide in Shadows quite extensively, I had used only 2 spells and defeated the boss and his helpers almost only with "rogue magic", and I saw that there are differences from the original in the way the Hide button is activated, maybe also for the Song one is the same. As now I have Haer Dalis in the party I will make some test and tell you more.
Wow, that's even more micro than I thought. Interesting discussion, but I don't think I'll use this tactic. I like micro in moderate doses. That much micro would drive me nuts.
I agree about the micro needed, but with the HLA song and the right party it can really give a boost in some hard battles. And about that I want to ask to @subtledoctor how difficult is, for someone who has no modding knowledge, to write a custom script for bards that do it automatically, something that check which enemy the bard is attacking and his apr in that moment than at the beginning of each round lets him inactive for a very short time, so the song can trigger, and then make him attack the same enemy for the APR he has, then make him sing again. Or maybe is simpler, as probably a script can check the timer of the round and other things, to order to the bard to attack slightly after the beginning of his round and sing yous before the end of it.
Because if is not incredibly difficult I will be happy to learn and try and I will post in the modding section a request of help about it.
I have also done some experimentation with EE and it seems to work differently from the original. I want to experiment further, but for now:
Not EE behavior ---the bard is singing and autopause on end of round is set on. ---the game autopauses (you have still to ignore the autopauses for the other party members so press some times the spacebar), in this moment the game check if the song button has been pressed and activate the song for the round. you unpause. ---immediately after unpausing you order the bard to attack, then you count his attacks on the screen and as the last of his apr is fired you press the sing button and wait for the next autopause.
The message "bard song active", or whatever is used in the english version, appears only when the game activate the song, not when you press the button.
EE behavior --The message "bard song active" appears 2 times, when you press the button and when the song is activated by the game engine. ---the autopause, when it triggers, is something in between the two messages. ---the autopause is somehow random, some rounds it triggers, others it don't. I suppose that this is related to the fact that pressing the song button not only causes the new message to appear in the text box but resets some timer. I had some fear about it as I saw differences is how the hide button works differently, and they are confirmed. I need more testing, and I am not using modder tools to look how the engine handles the thing, just experimenting in the game.
As far the better way that I have found with EE is to wait for the message that appears when the game activates the song, then order to attack. so 1---the bard is singing and an enemy is seen 2---you order the bard to attack and count his apr, when the last is fired you press the song button. the first message appears. 3---you wait for the second message, whose text is identical, but this one tells you that the song has been activated for the round and again order him to attack. 4---repeat the autopause is not used, the spacebar pause is not essential if you are a mage to use the spacebar and the mouse as you check both the bard's animations to count the attacks and the text box to look for the messages about song activation. I prefer to use it, even in testing conditions is a lot easier, in real combat situations, with the text box filled with messages scrolling down you have really to be a mage to do without it.
Tanks for the answer. So I trust your "little" knowledge about scripts and forget about trying to write that one.
About EEkeeper and the trick under the spoiler is a very easy way, if someone has not problem in importing something that normally don't exist in the game. I usually don't do it for more than a bag of holding , as don't use the tool to alter my stats or the ones of the NPCs, maybe sometimes their initial proficiency. I will think about if I can allow myself to use it.
About the power of a bard both singing and attacking I agree, but that was exactly my point. And calculations made from other people ( @Lord_Tansheron ) show that in a PG party an extra fighter adds more benefits, dmg wise, than the bard only singing. Having the thing working is good for powergamers, as also the damage the bard does is added, and for someone like me that uses mainly 3-4 people parties but like to play the bards. My experimentation about this begun because I feel that with small parties the bonuses of the song are spread on too few people, having him sing and attack make small parties with a bard more interesting. And I wrote my RP reasons to do it in an other topic, if you are interested about them I will post here the link.
About casting and attacking I understand your motivations and if you where my DM in a PnP game i would not complain. But this CRPG is not PnP, is partially turn based and partially real time, it could have been implemented as a real turn based game, but that was not the choice of the developers, they created something different. And the cast and attack feature is clearly intended in this game, is not one of those bugs that has never been fixed. So I use it. I use it when I tell my mage to cast a MM and then to use the sling, or my fighter to drink an healing potion and then fight, and I also use it when I tell my bard to sing and attack. I have the maximum respect for those who try to play this game in a way that replicates PnP the better possible, but I like to play it "as it is", as something similar to PnP, that share a lot of things with it, but has also differences and unique features.
Worth noting that cast & attack has been a staple of AI mods since the beginning. SCS makes copious use of it as well, as can be seen with every mage capable of casting Melf's Minute Meteors.
And avoiding the use of cast and attack would require a LOT of micromanagement. If you buff your cleric with DUHM for some extra damage, you'd have to wait several seconds before ordering them to attack in order to avoid casting and attacking. And you'd have to do that for every character in your party, every time they cast a spell in combat.
Or when they drink a potion. Or use a scroll. Or use an innate ability. Or sing a song. Or look for traps. Or turn undead.
For the entire game.
Unless your spellcasters never do any fighting, and your fighters don't use any potions. And you don't use any fighter-type multi- or dual-classes to begin with. The only way to avoid that micromanagement is to limit all your characters to one function each--using weapons, or doing anything else.
And the only reason "cast and attack" seems rare among enemies is because so few enemies are fighter/mage types. But when enemies do have both strong weapons and spells--Melissan, Mind Flayers, Umber Hulks, demons, dragons, Myconids, vampires--they're perfectly willing to use both in the same round.
Even the Mephits in Chateau Irenicus use cast and attack!
I personally don't even try to avoid it. Mind Flyers do it, Dragons do it, Humber Hulks do it, Vampires do it, enemy Fighters do it (as quaffing a potion is regarded by the game as a magic action), some thieves do it (backstab and go invisible with potion), most of the bosses do it. Only the mages, that have almost no mlee or ranged potential, no FM in an unmodded game, don't. Why I have to refrain myself to do it?
If you're using advanced AI, you really can't avoid it. Your casters will begin to attack immediately after the spell finishes.
I never use the AI intentionally, but I had to test this and sure enough the characters do that. I started a new BG game with a fighter/mage and he starts the fight against Shank with a magic missile and then makes an attack about 2 seconds after the spell ends. The next attack is right at 6 seconds after that first attack. I disabled cosmetic attacks and enabled the to hit rolls to make sure.
I still won't use the AI. The computer already does too much for me.
I still won't use the AI. The computer already does too much for me.
I agree, and I would say that it does it in a far less effective way than the one I can use myself, waste important spells on trivial battles, targets the wrong enemies in the wrong moments, both with my fighters and casters, and a lot more. Play yourself Aerie and she rooks, leave her to the AI and she is just a very weak C/M with low hp. Imo the only friendly creature that the AI handles well is the summoned nimph. And when you rest before a long trip and your mages cast their stoneskins that will be expired when you arrive you have to rest again when reaching the destination or have less protected mages. I can write pages of other examples, but this is enough.
If someone want to progress beyond the very basics he'll better turn off the AI and start to think with his own brain, no matter if is a good one or not so good, it will always be a lot better than party AI. You can learn a lot from AI, but in a completely different way, look at the enemy's AI, learn from enemy mages, that sometimes give you so much problems while you ones fall so easily. Look at what protections they use, which of their spells wreak havoc on your party. Your mages have the same potential, usually the enemy's AI has very good scripts, at least for a beginner/intermediate level of playing.
Party AI is usable, but afaik only a moderator of the Ironworks Forums did a really good use of it. But he learned how to write scripts and created custom scripts for his party, scripts dedicated to that particular party. Then he had a run with Tactics and other difficult mods relying completely on AI.
Comments
That said. I read and like your comments. Definitely don't leave. I like the aura clear autopause idea. I'm with you.
As a reminder, the feature request is here in case you want to share your thoughts about it.
I was driven to read this topic by a link from an other one, I resurrect it because I think that there is more to tell about the rounds and their end.
Afaik each round has a maximum duration of 6 sec, but it can be less.
In each round a character can do 3 types of things.
1-physical attacks, up to his APR eventually increased by spells and items. He can do this only one time per round, he can not perform some of the APR, do something other and then continue with the APR.
2- 1 magical action. For magical action is intended casting a spell, using a scroll or potion or using some effect from an item. I think that there are only 2 exceptions, Using a contingency and casting spells while under IA. The aura thing is more a RP flavor than a real thing, a mage can cast a MM in the very end of a round, that he has begun in an other way, and then cast a second MM at the beginning of the new round, a second after, round begun because the 6 secs of the previous are expired. What really count is the 1 magical action for round, not the aura.
3-move around the area.
A character can do all the 3 things in the same round if he does them in the 6 secs available.
So he can cast a spell that take 1.5sec, perform his physical attacks for let's say 2 secs and still have other 2.5 secs to move, all in one round. This is the ideal use of a round. Sometimes we mess with it and move around before the APR is fully used, or cast in the middle of a round while we are performing the physical attacks. In those cases understanding when the game decides to start a new round is not simple, sometimes it starts the new round almost immediately, even if the 6 secs are not expired, other times we have to wait that the previous round is concluded.
And sometimes a spell can not be completed in the round because the beginning of the round was not triggered by the spell, but by a physical attack and maybe (but I am not sure of that) even by moving around the character.
I hope that this helps to clear the confusion.
As I am here I use extensively autopause, I have it always set for enemy seen, enemy destroyed, trap found, weapon not available (ranged ammunition all used but also equipping in the slot only one arrow for a better control using valuable ammunition like dispelling and exploding arrows) and spell cast.
I use less often the autopause on round ended, less often but I use it. And I would like it working more selectively, like having a button that trigger it only for the chars selected when you press that button. So if I want to monitor only my mage and my bard I have just to select those 2, press the button and have the game pause only at the end of their rounds.
The Blade's song is not very effective, I use it only if there is some problem with fear and the party can not deal with it in other ways (a character with boots of speed running in fear is not an easy target for remove fear).
I use the tactic at high levels when the blade gets the improved song (+4,+4,+4 for everyone) and the Blade gets a 10 AC bonus. At that point usually in my party there is at least an other arcane caster, better than the blade in it, who wears the robe, the bard spells are mainly used for pre buffing, remember that he can get an outrageously low AC with few buffs and the song bonus on top. Combat casting for him is situational, but having him tanking (with an AC under the limit of the game) and just a stoneskin and some mirror images) as he bash foe DW Black Razor and SNT (so with 6 apr after few hits) as he make your other characters and summons more resilient and give them a good thac0 and dmg bonus is very effective.
Having him attack ranged with the short bows or crossbows while he sing is also effective and a lot easier, even if the EE choice to disable the fake mlee attacks should make the mlee tactic less micro intensive, in the original games is almost a nightmare.
The effect of the HLA song is amazing, Thieves benefit from both Thac0 and DMG (when backstabbing), Fighters multiply the DMG bonus as they have high APR, summons, like the Skeletal Warrior or the Aerial Servant, get more resilient cannon fodder and begin to hit often also against strong enemies, a DW Aerie becomes a beast as she sums the benefits of the song with her own self buffs (-11Thaco, +18DMG and maxed DMG roll, with 4APR, 8 if you use also her Simulacrum).
Some players think that one more fighter is better for the party then a Blade singing, it is true (if DPR is the only concern) only if the singing Blade is calculated as inactive elsewhere. But if you factor in the fact that singing doesn't prevent the physical attack, while it prevents a magical one like casting, and factor in also the use of F/M Simulacra and summons to rise the number of party members in my experience is the better party buff of the game. Even with a party of 4 is easy for a high level party to have like 50 or more APR for the main battle of the day (mages using MMM or EB, a couple of IH Fighter or F/M Simulacra and an IH Planetar, 4 other hasted summons, 50 APR is a very prudential value).
200 or more DPR is not bad if the singer is only prevented from casting, even if we don't consider the defensive bonuses.
About fake attacks @ConjurerDragon is correct.
Is a lot easier to control the numbers of the Bard's attacks looking at the animations instead of reading the feedback text that is scrolling so fast. But in not EE is not possible to disable the fake mlee animations so the sing and attack strategy is more difficoult.
@Alonso
First of all in a round a character can do 3 kind of things.
1- move around
2- physical attack, mlee or ranged, up to the APR number.
3- 1 magical action. For magical action is intended casting a spell, but also using a potion, scroll, activate an item like a wand or a special effect from a weapon. Only one magical action is possible for each round (exception for mages with IA active), casting, prevents from drinking a potion and drinking a potion prevents from casting as the only magical action is consumed and you have to wait for an other round.
But you can move, physical attack and do a magical action in the same round, if you do them in the 6 secs of its duration.
Afaik singing is considered as a magical action so a Bard can cast and attack or sing and attack, but not sing and cast, as 2 different magical actions are involved in the same round.
About "Having him attack ranged with the short bows or crossbows while he sing is also effective and a lot easier" is a problem of micromanagement, not a problem of game mechanics.
To have the Bard activate the song at the beginning of the first round and then, after a split second begin the physical attacks, then to count them until the APR is reached is labor intensive, having him at mlee range, maybe moving from an enemy to an other, and more exposed to the enemy's attacks and debuffs make it even more intensive. If the Bard is not needed for tanking or the maximum DPR is not needed usually have him sing and attack ranged is enough, even if the best DPR is obtained when the physical attacks are performed with strong mlee weapons (like Black Razor or CF katana + SNT).
Time=0: You click the sing button and pause as quickly as you can.
T~0.1: You order the bard to attack and unpause.
T=0.1 to 6: The bard keeps attacking.
T=6: The song effect wears off. You click the sing button and pause as quickly as you can.
T=6.1: You order the bard to attack, and unpause.
T=6.1 to 12: The bard keeps attacking.
Etc.
Is this correct?
It's usually better for an experienced player to just tap spacebar though
The problem is that is almost impossible to time the 6.00 moment manually and if you are at 5.99 it works, if you are at 6.01 the song does not trigger. So you have to find a way to press the song button a little before 6.00. The way I use is counting the attacks and the autopause is only used to know when the 6.0 moment is reached.
So:
Time=0: You click the sing button and pause as quickly as you can.
T~0.1: You order the bard to attack and unpause.
T=0.1 The bard keeps attacking. You have to know the APR of the Bard, let's say that he has 3 APR using the speed short bow, you count his attacks and when the 3rd one is done you click the sing button.
T=6: The song effect of the previous round wears off, the autopause triggers and The song effect of the next round begins. At this point you unpause and a split second after at
T=6.1: You order the bard to attack,
T=6.1 to 12: The bard keeps attacking.
* I am only beginning to experiment with EE now, few quests of the first run done (EE is not on my gaming computer so I can use it only when the rest of the family don't need the one where is installed).
I am playing a FMT and I had done the Planar Prison quest as second one after the Circus. There I experimented with Hide in Shadows quite extensively, I had used only 2 spells and defeated the boss and his helpers almost only with "rogue magic", and I saw that there are differences from the original in the way the Hide button is activated, maybe also for the Song one is the same.
As now I have Haer Dalis in the party I will make some test and tell you more.
Or maybe is simpler, as probably a script can check the timer of the round and other things, to order to the bard to attack slightly after the beginning of his round and sing yous before the end of it.
Because if is not incredibly difficult I will be happy to learn and try and I will post in the modding section a request of help about it.
I have also done some experimentation with EE and it seems to work differently from the original.
I want to experiment further, but for now:
Not EE behavior
---the bard is singing and autopause on end of round is set on.
---the game autopauses (you have still to ignore the autopauses for the other party members so press some times the spacebar), in this moment the game check if the song button has been pressed and activate the song for the round. you unpause.
---immediately after unpausing you order the bard to attack, then you count his attacks on the screen and as the last of his apr is fired you press the sing button and wait for the next autopause.
The message "bard song active", or whatever is used in the english version, appears only when the game activate the song, not when you press the button.
EE behavior
--The message "bard song active" appears 2 times, when you press the button and when the song is activated by the game engine.
---the autopause, when it triggers, is something in between the two messages.
---the autopause is somehow random, some rounds it triggers, others it don't. I suppose that this is related to the fact that pressing the song button not only causes the new message to appear in the text box but resets some timer. I had some fear about it as I saw differences is how the hide button works differently, and they are confirmed. I need more testing, and I am not using modder tools to look how the engine handles the thing, just experimenting in the game.
As far the better way that I have found with EE is to wait for the message that appears when the game activates the song, then order to attack.
so
1---the bard is singing and an enemy is seen
2---you order the bard to attack and count his apr, when the last is fired you press the song button. the first message appears.
3---you wait for the second message, whose text is identical, but this one tells you that the song has been activated for the round and again order him to attack.
4---repeat
the autopause is not used, the spacebar pause is not essential if you are a mage to use the spacebar and the mouse as you check both the bard's animations to count the attacks and the text box to look for the messages about song activation. I prefer to use it, even in testing conditions is a lot easier, in real combat situations, with the text box filled with messages scrolling down you have really to be a mage to do without it.
So I trust your "little" knowledge about scripts and forget about trying to write that one.
About EEkeeper and the trick under the spoiler is a very easy way, if someone has not problem in importing something that normally don't exist in the game. I usually don't do it for more than a bag of holding , as don't use the tool to alter my stats or the ones of the NPCs, maybe sometimes their initial proficiency.
I will think about if I can allow myself to use it.
About the power of a bard both singing and attacking I agree, but that was exactly my point.
And calculations made from other people ( @Lord_Tansheron ) show that in a PG party an extra fighter adds more benefits, dmg wise, than the bard only singing. Having the thing working is good for powergamers, as also the damage the bard does is added, and for someone like me that uses mainly 3-4 people parties but like to play the bards. My experimentation about this begun because I feel that with small parties the bonuses of the song are spread on too few people, having him sing and attack make small parties with a bard more interesting.
And I wrote my RP reasons to do it in an other topic, if you are interested about them I will post here the link.
About casting and attacking I understand your motivations and if you where my DM in a PnP game i would not complain.
But this CRPG is not PnP, is partially turn based and partially real time, it could have been implemented as a real turn based game, but that was not the choice of the developers, they created something different.
And the cast and attack feature is clearly intended in this game, is not one of those bugs that has never been fixed. So I use it.
I use it when I tell my mage to cast a MM and then to use the sling, or my fighter to drink an healing potion and then fight, and I also use it when I tell my bard to sing and attack.
I have the maximum respect for those who try to play this game in a way that replicates PnP the better possible, but I like to play it "as it is", as something similar to PnP, that share a lot of things with it, but has also differences and unique features.
Or when they drink a potion. Or use a scroll. Or use an innate ability. Or sing a song. Or look for traps. Or turn undead.
For the entire game.
Unless your spellcasters never do any fighting, and your fighters don't use any potions. And you don't use any fighter-type multi- or dual-classes to begin with. The only way to avoid that micromanagement is to limit all your characters to one function each--using weapons, or doing anything else.
Doesn't sound the least bit fun either way.
Even the Mephits in Chateau Irenicus use cast and attack!
Mind Flyers do it, Dragons do it, Humber Hulks do it, Vampires do it, enemy Fighters do it (as quaffing a potion is regarded by the game as a magic action), some thieves do it (backstab and go invisible with potion), most of the bosses do it. Only the mages, that have almost no mlee or ranged potential, no FM in an unmodded game, don't. Why I have to refrain myself to do it?
I still won't use the AI. The computer already does too much for me.
Play yourself Aerie and she rooks, leave her to the AI and she is just a very weak C/M with low hp.
Imo the only friendly creature that the AI handles well is the summoned nimph.
And when you rest before a long trip and your mages cast their stoneskins that will be expired when you arrive you have to rest again when reaching the destination or have less protected mages.
I can write pages of other examples, but this is enough.
If someone want to progress beyond the very basics he'll better turn off the AI and start to think with his own brain, no matter if is a good one or not so good, it will always be a lot better than party AI.
You can learn a lot from AI, but in a completely different way, look at the enemy's AI, learn from enemy mages, that sometimes give you so much problems while you ones fall so easily. Look at what protections they use, which of their spells wreak havoc on your party. Your mages have the same potential, usually the enemy's AI has very good scripts, at least for a beginner/intermediate level of playing.
Party AI is usable, but afaik only a moderator of the Ironworks Forums did a really good use of it.
But he learned how to write scripts and created custom scripts for his party, scripts dedicated to that particular party. Then he had a run with Tactics and other difficult mods relying completely on AI.