yep. Conciousness is there controlling the corpse. That's a lich. Well to an extent. Agreed lol. I was just throwing side examples out.
The vamps a specific.... class... to be more accurate.... or inaccurate. It's evolved so much it makes ones head swim really.
Vamp/demi lich/lich Human/demi god/god For lack of better references.
It does kinda boil down in -most- fantasy ....
Demi lich = powwrful mage on the verge of transcendence (usually evil or wimpy morality freak and doesn't realize you gotta eat brains to stay alive kinda thing) Lich= transcen...dead... Req: undead Demi God = half mortal/half supernatural (CHARNAME) God = supernatural (bhaal) Req: living
Then throw in the soup mix....and it just... could argue and hash out a lot I imagine with the brains on these forums... but I'd need more beer. Haha. I just tried to generalize.
I wouldn't compare a demigod with a lich or a god with a demilich. There's a reason many powerful demiliches want to become gods themselves. There's also a reason powerful mages would rather be demiliches than gods. A big part of that is because becoming a demilich is actually something you can accomplish if you just stay alive long enough. Becoming a god is something else entirely.
Edit: And you DO die (albeit temporarily) when you become a lich. What do you think happens when your soul leaves your body and enters the phylactery? The problem, obviously, is that Bhaalspawn soul transfer is incredibly tricky and there's bound to be complications. That's why your character gains the ability to become the Slayer when Irenicus steals your soul using a -very- powerful ritual. Your character didn't even die that time and already there's a complication. Also, see Game Over screen. Your PC lives in a world where resurrection/reviving of the dead is possible (ie you don't actually cease to exist when you die, and someone can force your soul back into your body using a spell) and yet in-game you absolutely cannot die, even for a second or it's game over. Aerie could be in the middle of casting Resurrection and completing it 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 second after your death and you'd still get the game over screen.
Would you really risk all of that just to become a -lich- when you're on your way to becoming a god? It boggles the mind that a non-suicidal PC would ever consider this.
There two separate stories of lichdom featured in Bioware games, iirc. One is mentioned somewhere in the IE games series... IWD, I think. Might have been one of the item descriptions. The other is the story of the Karlat Jhareg (Charwood: The Eternal Village sidequest from Neverwinter Nights). Going by that story, lichdom can become extremely complicated even without taking into account the actual process.
In the pen-and-paper AD&D, you could make your character turn into a Evil Lich/Good Baelnorn. If Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale are to be faithful to AD&D, you guys seriously need to add something (side quest, accidental transformation, hidden item/cursed item, etc.) to make Lichdom a playable option... along with appropriate conversation responses from npcs.
Rogue Bob: "Oh wow! A treasure chest!" (Opens chest and picks up an unusual bottle.) Rogue Bob: "I wonder what this would fetch on the black market?" Wizard Joe: "Don't touch that you fool!" (Blinding flash) Lich Bob: "What happened? I feel... weird." Wizard Joe: "The good news is... (Looks awkwardly about) Wizard Joe: "Well... um... plan for a lot of birthdays."
Inasmuch as I loved Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2, it galled me to no end that I would read the lore behind the Lich and then actually have to fight them... but never ever be able to play through the games as a Lich. I'm sure the conversations in those games would be more interesting... especially from Desther. After all, what do the dead have to fear from the Wailing Death?
In any case, I believe adding a fully playable Lich/Baelnorn character transformation option to the existing games would add even more depth and story twists.
yep. Conciousness is there controlling the corpse. That's a lich. Well to an extent. Agreed lol. I was just throwing side examples out.
The vamps a specific.... class... to be more accurate.... or inaccurate. It's evolved so much it makes ones head swim really.
Vamp/demi lich/lich Human/demi god/god For lack of better references.
It does kinda boil down in -most- fantasy ....
Demi lich = powwrful mage on the verge of transcendence (usually evil or wimpy morality freak and doesn't realize you gotta eat brains to stay alive kinda thing) Lich= transcen...dead... Req: undead Demi God = half mortal/half supernatural (CHARNAME) God = supernatural (bhaal) Req: living
Then throw in the soup mix....and it just... could argue and hash out a lot I imagine with the brains on these forums... but I'd need more beer. Haha. I just tried to generalize.
You do realize that the Realms already has a deity of undeath? Velsharoon is the god of necromancy and undeath who is also a lich.
In greater canon, Kanchelsis is the deity of vampirism, Mellifleur is the god of liches and lichdom, and Vecna was a lich before his ascension to godhood and still retains his lichdom.
This is a very interesting discussion. Lots of depth, wide angle, I really like it. I would however like to point out an aspect of it that I feel deserves more attention than it's had so far. Mainchar *is* somewhat of a lich for part of the game, and struggling, questing, fighting etc. to be *less* lich-like. Not entirely a lich obviously, but very close. It's just that the phylactery is a bit autonomous, and likes to cast spells and kill elves and become an elven deity. And, of course, Charname did not part with their soul voluntarily. Does that make sense? I do feel that more thought should be spent on the matter of what exactly it is that Irenicus steals. But that might be a different discussion.
Baelnorn are incredibly rare and almost always exist for a very specific purpose, at least according to my memory of my 2nd edition monster manual, so it's understandable that Bhallspawn doesn't just stumble across this rare knowledge and capability.
As for evil lichdom, a Bhaalspawn smart and evil enough to desire that and smart enough to accomplish it would almost certainly prefer the divine essence to eternal undeath, no?
Lich is not a class, it's a template. Any spellcasters with the requirements can turn themselves into a lich, not just mages. The only major advantage to being a lich is that the character won't die of old age which is irrelevant when it comes to a video game. All the immunities and such are not really worth that much compared to how powerfull mages and cleric classes become anyway.
honestly I would be interested. Bodhi was drained of her soul and used his vampirism as an escape, and I can't become a lich during SoA? You would be a fool. I would even ask the demon lord you summon under ust nasta if need be on who I should search for my quest to lichdom
Lichdom would be an interesting addition, but by the time you're able to become one there are several reasons why it wouldn't work or would be a terrible idea, especially considering the issue of retaining your status of a Bhaal-spawn after you die.
Comments
yep. Conciousness is there controlling the corpse. That's a lich. Well to an extent. Agreed lol. I was just throwing side examples out.
The vamps a specific.... class... to be more accurate.... or inaccurate. It's evolved so much it makes ones head swim really.
Vamp/demi lich/lich
Human/demi god/god
For lack of better references.
It does kinda boil down in -most- fantasy ....
Demi lich = powwrful mage on the verge of transcendence (usually evil or wimpy morality freak and doesn't realize you gotta eat brains to stay alive kinda thing)
Lich= transcen...dead...
Req: undead
Demi God = half mortal/half supernatural (CHARNAME)
God = supernatural (bhaal)
Req: living
Then throw in the soup mix....and it just... could argue and hash out a lot I imagine with the brains on these forums... but I'd need more beer. Haha. I just tried to generalize.
Edit:
And you DO die (albeit temporarily) when you become a lich. What do you think happens when your soul leaves your body and enters the phylactery? The problem, obviously, is that Bhaalspawn soul transfer is incredibly tricky and there's bound to be complications. That's why your character gains the ability to become the Slayer when Irenicus steals your soul using a -very- powerful ritual. Your character didn't even die that time and already there's a complication. Also, see Game Over screen. Your PC lives in a world where resurrection/reviving of the dead is possible (ie you don't actually cease to exist when you die, and someone can force your soul back into your body using a spell) and yet in-game you absolutely cannot die, even for a second or it's game over. Aerie could be in the middle of casting Resurrection and completing it 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 second after your death and you'd still get the game over screen.
Would you really risk all of that just to become a -lich- when you're on your way to becoming a god? It boggles the mind that a non-suicidal PC would ever consider this.
The other is the story of the Karlat Jhareg (Charwood: The Eternal Village sidequest from Neverwinter Nights). Going by that story, lichdom can become extremely complicated even without taking into account the actual process.
Rogue Bob: "Oh wow! A treasure chest!"
(Opens chest and picks up an unusual bottle.)
Rogue Bob: "I wonder what this would fetch on the black market?"
Wizard Joe: "Don't touch that you fool!"
(Blinding flash)
Lich Bob: "What happened? I feel... weird."
Wizard Joe: "The good news is...
(Looks awkwardly about)
Wizard Joe: "Well... um... plan for a lot of birthdays."
Inasmuch as I loved Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2, it galled me to no end that I would read the lore behind the Lich and then actually have to fight them... but never ever be able to play through the games as a Lich. I'm sure the conversations in those games would be more interesting... especially from Desther. After all, what do the dead have to fear from the Wailing Death?
In any case, I believe adding a fully playable Lich/Baelnorn character transformation option to the existing games would add even more depth and story twists.
In greater canon, Kanchelsis is the deity of vampirism, Mellifleur is the god of liches and lichdom, and Vecna was a lich before his ascension to godhood and still retains his lichdom.
Mainchar *is* somewhat of a lich for part of the game, and struggling, questing, fighting etc. to be *less* lich-like. Not entirely a lich obviously, but very close. It's just that the phylactery is a bit autonomous, and likes to cast spells and kill elves and become an elven deity. And, of course, Charname did not part with their soul voluntarily.
Does that make sense? I do feel that more thought should be spent on the matter of what exactly it is that Irenicus steals. But that might be a different discussion.
As for evil lichdom, a Bhaalspawn smart and evil enough to desire that and smart enough to accomplish it would almost certainly prefer the divine essence to eternal undeath, no?