I like the DD, but this is a silly argument. There's more to the game than just these fights, and so what if you have to kite, speed is one of your bonuses, why would it be wrong to rely on it?
wilderness "instinct" that also helps them avoid surprises by being in the right state of mind - and that is something you can't simply derive cognitively, which is why other classes can't emulate it. You have to LIVE it to be able to develop such an instinct, simply reading or hearing about it is not enough.
Which explains why mages and clerics shouldn't be immune to backstabs, but rangers and thieves also spend their lives in perception-always-on mode, the Barbarian is not unique in that regard.
Barbarians have specialised in a different way. Thieves and rangers have to avoid wearing heavy armour in order to be able to stealth, i.e. they are avoiding attracting notice. Barbarians have gone a slightly different route - rather than hiding from others they are able to spot others sneaking up on them ...
I like the DD, but this is a silly argument. There's more to the game than just these fights, and so what if you have to kite, speed is one of your bonuses, why would it be wrong to rely on it?
Because it just feels better to have your dwarf plant his feet in the ground, lift his shield, and hold the line. Running around like an elf shooting arrows at a heavily armored enemy warrior just feels wrong.
The speed's not really been hit upon as a factor. Being able to move quickly is hugely underrated: you can escape large Area of Effect spells (ADHW) allowing another person to wear the cloak of mirroring/other immunity item. You can chase down mages that move around and kite (basically SCS-only, though.) You can get out of dodge from bad situations like Vorpal melee hits or fights gone wrong. Normally, this speed advantage is minor compared to other fighters, but when a DD's schtick includes HALVING HIS SPEED... I dunno. The difference in speed just allows for so many more options for the Barbarian, I think.
Barbarians are lightly armored in-your-face offense with the ability to soak up enough damage to survive their recklessness. This includes exploiting situations as they come up, because it is attack, attack, attack.
Dwarven Defenders are heavily armored tanks. They pick a spot in the front line and they hold their ground. Retreat isn't even a possibility. They buy time for their comrades to flank/cast/hea/shoot/whatever. As Dwarven Warriors they'll smash your face in, sure. But they are truly defensive in nature.
I prefer the defensive mindset, but I can see how others would like the offensive one.
Dwarven Defenders are disciplined professional warriors trained to fight as members of a team. Barbarians are reckless lunatics that make their allies shake their heads, sigh, and try to help the nutjob out before he gets himself killed.
Because they're brave? Paladins are typical Gryffindors, there's a difference between the noble courage of honor and the reckless bravery of a short and brutish life.
The Solo-LoB-SCS-Ascension-Run i played as a Barbarian through the whole series (including SoD) was the biggest fun for many years. The lack of Plate Armor or the 10% less DR when comparing him to the DD are irrelevant for most - if not all - parts. In LoB AC is not a good protection at least in the later stages or especially against named enemies. Yes, DR will matter but there are always ways IF tanking does not work! The movement speed bonus on the other hand made kiting so much easier in BG1 and at the start of BG2 - it was such a boon! Rage saved my life so many times thanks to all the immunities - its just great against spellcasters! Backstab immunity might not be essential but fighting hard hitting Thieves with huge HP´s made things definitely easier. I am sure that a DD would also be able to do this challenge but the Barbarian is in my eyes a real powerhouse that can overcome (nearly) all obstacles.
On the other hand, in the process of making the Barbarian good enough to charge ahead, they made them tough enough to tank and fast enough to kite, and nobody's forcing you to be reckless. If you judge the Barbarian by his abilities and actions rather than by his intended play style or reputation, he becomes a different kind of character, which is instantly interesting because now you can contemplate what makes him different from other barbarians, and he becomes a person rather than an archetype.
If a fight against a mage starts with the Inquisitor casing Dispel and the Barbarian getting enraged and charging... what's the mage's next best move?
A Spell Trigger with Improved Invisibility, SI: Divination, and SI: Abjuration would give the mage many rounds to bolster his or her defenses and summon monsters to hassle the Inquisitor and Barbarian. Time Stop followed by Imprisonment would wipe out the Inquisitor and leave the Barbarian completely unable to remove the mage's defenses. The mage could kill the Barbarian with spell damage. The mage would need a contingency with PFMW and Protection from Normal Missiles to survive a Power Attack from the two fighters.
At lower levels, the mage could just launch a Spell Sequencer with Greater Malison, Slow, and Chaos. The Inquisitor would probably be confused for the next 6 rounds and the Barbarians slowed for the next 10 rounds. The mage could then just run away and prepare to strike.
At lower levels than that, the mage might just use a Slow spell, Polymorph Other on the Inquisitor, or a Minor Sequencer with two Web spells.
At lower levels still, the mage could knock out the Inquisitor with a Sleep spell, but he or she would only be able to neutralize the Barbarian if the Barbarian fails a save against Blindness before he or she can kill the mage with a longbow (which a pre-cast Mirror Image could complicate), at which point the mage could slay them both using darts and maybe Melf's Acid Arrow.
I'd say the fighters would have the advantage up until level 5, at which point it starts to even out. As everyone's level got higher, the mage gradually takes the advantage, gaining a solid lead around level 16 when Spell Trigger can block True Seeing and Dispel Magic simultaneously.
Of course, if it was a fair fight, we'd probably have two mages against an Inquisitor and a Barbarian.
I still find Barbarians to be more fun. I don't mind overpowered kits per se, but the Dwarven Defender's power comes off as intentional: "Let's create a class that's always better at tanking than anyone else." My favorite tanks have weaknesses that I have to compensate for.
I think the Barbarian's immunity to backstab is more contrived. "Let's create a class that's always better at charging ahead than anyone, even if we have to make them uniquely and inexplicably immune to backstabs". A Dwarven Defender seems like a legitimate job, a career that a dwarven warrior might pursue and master, which is why he's good at it.
I'm late to the party, but it seems to be compensating for the fact that 3.x edition Barbarians get the Improved Uncanny Dodge class feat, which gives them immunity to sneak attacks as long as the sneak attacker is not 4 or more levels higher in the class(es) that give(s) them sneak attack than the barbarian.
Although, by that metric, the Dwarven Defender should get backstab immunity too because they also get Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Comments
You can do it as a Dwarven Defender. As a barbarian? You'll need to kite.
Hence DD wins.
Barbarians are lightly armored in-your-face offense with the ability to soak up enough damage to survive their recklessness. This includes exploiting situations as they come up, because it is attack, attack, attack.
Dwarven Defenders are heavily armored tanks. They pick a spot in the front line and they hold their ground. Retreat isn't even a possibility. They buy time for their comrades to flank/cast/hea/shoot/whatever. As Dwarven Warriors they'll smash your face in, sure. But they are truly defensive in nature.
I prefer the defensive mindset, but I can see how others would like the offensive one.
If a fight against a mage starts with the Inquisitor casing Dispel and the Barbarian getting enraged and charging... what's the mage's next best move?
At lower levels, the mage could just launch a Spell Sequencer with Greater Malison, Slow, and Chaos. The Inquisitor would probably be confused for the next 6 rounds and the Barbarians slowed for the next 10 rounds. The mage could then just run away and prepare to strike.
At lower levels than that, the mage might just use a Slow spell, Polymorph Other on the Inquisitor, or a Minor Sequencer with two Web spells.
At lower levels still, the mage could knock out the Inquisitor with a Sleep spell, but he or she would only be able to neutralize the Barbarian if the Barbarian fails a save against Blindness before he or she can kill the mage with a longbow (which a pre-cast Mirror Image could complicate), at which point the mage could slay them both using darts and maybe Melf's Acid Arrow.
I'd say the fighters would have the advantage up until level 5, at which point it starts to even out. As everyone's level got higher, the mage gradually takes the advantage, gaining a solid lead around level 16 when Spell Trigger can block True Seeing and Dispel Magic simultaneously.
Of course, if it was a fair fight, we'd probably have two mages against an Inquisitor and a Barbarian.
Although, by that metric, the Dwarven Defender should get backstab immunity too because they also get Improved Uncanny Dodge.