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Barbarian vs Dwarven Defender

vladpenvladpen Member Posts: 88
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
The differences between these two classes have been discussed years ago, but I don't want to resurrect those threads just to make this one point.

The Barbarian's job is to charge ahead and reliably do a lot of burst damage. This is why he gets increased movement speed and nigh-unstoppable rage. He can't do his job if he just gets backstabbed to death by the opponents he runs past, so he gets immunity to backstab; he also can't do his job if he's frail, so he gets damage reduction abilities. But his job is not tanking, it's assault, everything else follows from that. Both classes are good both on offense and defense, but they're optimized for different jobs, so you can just choose on that basis--assault or tanking?
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Comments

  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    I prefer the barbarian. It's far more versatile with weapon choices, a fantastic dual-wielder, great with ranged weapons which is important in BG1, and can have up to 85% physical resistance so they perform extremely well in ToB. The spell immunities granted by rage are also a great bonus.

    I've used the dwarven defender maybe once ever so I can't say much for how good it is but towards the end of SoA I felt it was starting to lose steam. I'm not much of a pure-fighter player but the barbarian is one of the few classes I enjoy playing.
  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    @OlderThan13Years

    80%, not 85%, I was wrong. Hardiness (40%) + Barbarian resistances (20%) + Defender of Easthaven (20%). I recalled DoE giving 25%, not 20%.

    I think part of the reason I prefer the barbarian is because I don't play solo. The barbarian's immunities are more valuable when resources such as potions have to be shared around. Generally, I have a barbarian dual-wield with a mage buffing them with Improved Haste and use Critical Strike + Hardiness instead of GWW.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,538
    Race restrictions are not fun. :)
  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    My mistake. Shows how much I play dwarves as a whole. Still, you'd probably want to cap out your four points in axes and hammers before investing in anything else.
  • vladpenvladpen Member Posts: 88
    Artemius_I said:

    cap out your four points in axes and hammers before investing in anything else

    Shortbows first for me. The Archer kit is so devastating largely because archery is a very effective form of combat.
  • vladpenvladpen Member Posts: 88
    JumboWheat01 said:

    Why limit yourself to one or the other? Make both as protagonists, both dwarves and just rock the joint.

    But then how will I fit in the Inquisitor, Archer, Sorceress, Gnome Illusionist/Thief, Half-Orc Cleric/Thief, and Half-Elf Cleric/Mage?
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    Artemius_I said:

    My mistake. Shows how much I play dwarves as a whole. Still, you'd probably want to cap out your four points in axes and hammers before investing in anything else.

    I don't know. The difference between Mastery and High mastery is only +1 to damage and -1 speed weapon. Not very significant. You might as well stop at Mastery (which is actually a nice boost) and invest proficiency points elsewhere to have a more flexible character. High mastery is only useful if you can get to Grandmastery; otherwise, it's pretty useless.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    I prefer the Barbarian, as I make grossly over offensive oriented parties.
    That being said, I wanna see a buddy cop movie set in Faerun with the b the book veteran Dwarven Defender and a the new hot blooded half orc Barbarian.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    True for ToB, though...
  • vladpenvladpen Member Posts: 88
    semiticgod said:

    I still find Barbarians to be more fun. I don't mind overpowered kits per se, but the Dwarven Defender's power comes off as intentional: "Let's create a class that's always better at tanking than anyone else." My favorite tanks have weaknesses that I have to compensate for.

    I think the Barbarian's immunity to backstab is more contrived. "Let's create a class that's always better at charging ahead than anyone, even if we have to make them uniquely and inexplicably immune to backstabs". A Dwarven Defender seems like a legitimate job, a career that a dwarven warrior might pursue and master, which is why he's good at it.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,459
    edited January 2017
    Arctodus said:

    I don't know. The difference between Mastery and High mastery is only +1 to damage and -1 speed weapon. Not very significant. You might as well stop at Mastery (which is actually a nice boost) and invest proficiency points elsewhere to have a more flexible character. High mastery is only useful if you can get to Grandmastery; otherwise, it's pretty useless.

    The difference is between specialisation and high mastery - which is +2 to hit and +2 damage. That seems pretty significant to me and I would certainly expect a dwarven defender to take advantage of that rather than spreading proficiency points more widely on rarely used weapons.
  • vladpenvladpen Member Posts: 88
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    I never found the immunity to backstab contrived for a barbarian. They live wild lives, and you don't live such a life for very long if you can't adapt to the unexpected. They're not easily surprised because they ALWAYS expect death at every corner, same way most animals live their lives (and why they can be so difficult to catch).

    It's a good rationalization, but that's not why it was done; you can tell because you can make the same argument about thieves, rangers, and professional fighters, and yet the only class that gets backstab immunity is the one whose specialty is to charge ahead and end up surrounded. An example of the opposite way to invent these things is Tasha's Unbearable Derisive Laughter, which clearly wasn't created by someone who was thinking primarily about gameplay mechanics.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited January 2017
    @Grond0 Yeah, but that boost is largely given by Mastery, not High Mastery. High mastery only adds +1 damage. The +2 to hit is given solely by Mastery.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    vladpen said:

    yet the only class that gets backstab immunity is the one whose specialty is to charge ahead and end up surrounded.

    While that is true, you do have to respect someone who does this habitually and apparently lives to tell the tale. Must be SOMETHING giving them an edge, and I'd argue it's that wilderness "instinct" that also helps them avoid surprises by being in the right state of mind - and that is something you can't simply derive cognitively, which is why other classes can't emulate it. You have to LIVE it to be able to develop such an instinct, simply reading or hearing about it is not enough.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,459
    Arctodus said:

    @Grond0 Yeah, but that boost is largely given by Mastery, not High Mastery. High mastery only adds +1 damage. The +2 to hit is given solely by Mastery.

    @Arctodus I'm not quite sure what your point is. Barbarians are limited to Specialized for weapon proficiencies, while Dwarven Defenders can achieve High Mastery. Therefore it's the +2/+2 difference between the two that's relevant - or am I missing something?
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited January 2017
    I'm just saying Mastery is enough. No need to go with High Mastery. Three pips in axes and hammers is enough for the Dwarven Defender.

    Then, DD can almost be as versatile as Barbarians, but still have preferred weapon types.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,459
    OK - I can see your point. Personally I would continue to High Mastery on the basis you're normally better maximising damage with fewer weapons, but I can understand the argument against that. I'm probably biased because I normally play solo and weapon speed is then far more important than it is in a party - if you're kiting things with a throwing axe for instance then you'll really notice a difference in weapon speed.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited January 2017
    Yeah, it's totally possible I overlooked the advantage of the weapon speed bonus, because I practically never play solo. But, otherwise, High Mastery alone is not all that powerful.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    vladpen said:

    JumboWheat01 said:

    Why limit yourself to one or the other? Make both as protagonists, both dwarves and just rock the joint.

    But then how will I fit in the Inquisitor, Archer, Sorceress, Gnome Illusionist/Thief, Half-Orc Cleric/Thief, and Half-Elf Cleric/Mage?
    Always make room for more dwarf.
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    edited January 2017
    Not to stir the pot more, but each hand can only wield one weapon. If you have an axe in one hand (let's say Frostreaver) and Crom Fraeyr in the other, with four pips in each, does it matter that you could also wield long swords and flails with two pips each if you'd only out two each into axes and hammers? I mean, the Blade of Roses and the Flail of the Ages are great weapons, but unless I look like a Hindu god, I can't use all four at once.

    Plus the whole concept of th dwarven defender is great for an RP run, but that probably says more about my own tastes than anything.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited January 2017
    Some weapons are situationnal.

    For example, you might want to be able to use bows and slings, in addition with axes and hammers. You can take down a dragon's defense with arrows dispelling then deal him big damage with a sling from a distance.

    Let just say you play an evil DD ; having 2 pips in maces for the MoD can be really helpful to kill undeads. To resume : more specializations offer more possibilities.

    All in all, it's true it doesn't change much, but High Mastery is kinda underwhelming, so you might just want other proficiencies...
  • vladpenvladpen Member Posts: 88
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    wilderness "instinct" that also helps them avoid surprises by being in the right state of mind - and that is something you can't simply derive cognitively, which is why other classes can't emulate it. You have to LIVE it to be able to develop such an instinct, simply reading or hearing about it is not enough.

    Which explains why mages and clerics shouldn't be immune to backstabs, but rangers and thieves also spend their lives in perception-always-on mode, the Barbarian is not unique in that regard.
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    Arctodus said:

    Some weapons are situationnal.

    All in all, it's true it doesn't change much, but High Mastery is kinda underwhelming, so you might just want other proficiencies...

    All fair points. Usually my approach is to take an advantage and squeeze everything I can out of it.
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