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Missing the Enhanced in the Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition

SystemSystem Administrator Posts: 199
Some of you most likely have been wondering, where has the thread by @billbisco gone? Our moderation have been wondering as well. It turns out an unexpected and unknown Vanilla bug lead to a complete removal of that thread.

On behalf of the moderation team, we're greatly sorry for all the misunderstanding that could have followed that deletion. Using the power of the webcache, we're restoring the thread, so feel free to continue discussing this topic.

And one more thing, and a very important one. Our policy is that we don't censor and delete stuff. Instead, we always encourage constructive discussions. What has happened here is a Forum Wild Surge "Imprisonment", centered on the thread. The moderation team is casting Freedom. Unfortunately, not all comments have been archived, like the one by @AlexT.
Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
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  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    edited April 2017
    Thanks to Julius and the moderation team. I'll resummarize and mention some new things.

    Obviously Beamdog as a company needs to be profitable and make business decisions that will help make it most likely to succeed. Sometimes this means cutting back features due to cost.

    From what I can gather online the original Planescape: Torment , it made a profit on "ok" sales but wasn't a hit product. Therefore the Enhanced Edition probably wouldn't get too many sales either. Given whatever royalties Beamdog has to pay, the expected profit from Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition is likely to be small. From a business standpoint, if you expect a small profit then you don't want to spend a lot of effort, time, and cost on features.

    That being said, I think there were several opportunities not used to add new gameplay opportunities without a lot of cost and give more reason to play this game renewed.

    1. Chris Avellone's desired features mentioned on Beamblog:

    Adding some characterization detail should have been feasible

    2. Story Mode and Heart of Fury-like Mode Inclusion

    These were highly touted features from Siege of Dragonspear that aren't present in PST:EE . These would both make the game more enjoyable for a variety of players.

    3. Lack of Extra Modes / Scenarios / Bonus Content

    BGEE and BG2EE gave us the Black Pits I & II. PSTEE could give us an epilogue featuring the Nameless One

    Beamdog created new Avernus (Hell) backgrounds for Siege of Dragonspear. These could have been modified slightly for a one-off Epilogue Scenario of the Nameless one fighting in the Blood War. Make it accessible only if the game is beaten.

    Alternatively, the game could have featured scenarios featuring the Nameless One or companions in the past

    Play a brief scenario as a past incarnation of the Nameless One or the original person before he become the Nameless One. Or play as a companion in the past such as Morte before he became a Skull.

    It should have been possible to craft a scenario that would involve re-used maps and/or modified existing maps to save on cost and give more gameplay opportunities. This could have been done without modifying the base content of the main game.

    4. Lack of Multiplayer

    PST:EE is using the same Infinity Enhanced Engine as the Baldur's Gate Games. It should have been possible with minimal cost to make a multiplayer version accessible.

    Make it so that joining players can only take over existing characters and may not make new ones. Re-use or cheaply modify the Multiplayer UI from Siege of Dragonspear. Yes, parties of 3-6 would be slightly inconvenienced by having to wait to find additional companions ingame, but most Multiplayer games are with just 2 people and Torment has a companion show up very early in the game: satisfying the majority of games.

    5. Lack of Female The Nameless One

    You can watch this video and hear Chris himself say at around 1 hour and 47 minutes say...

    "One reget we had was, we actually didn't want The Nameless One to sort of a have a static look in the game, we were just forced to have it. Like we would prefer it if you could have a female version and you could edit qualities about them. Character customization is such an important part of roleplaying games that we did want to allow for that, but we just didn't have the resources for it. "

    Chris has said the same thing before as shown in this tweet

    This one would have added more cost because of the need to create new renders and voice actors and putting those into the game. Modify the game slightly by replacing the game's lines to change from male to female. This would have necessitated creating new cutscene movies and might necessitate re-creating old ones because it might be hard to render the game in the same archaic ways of the past. (Don't want the Female TNO movies to look significantly better than the Male TNO movies).

    However, this definitely would have made the game a little more appealing to the game audience as a whole by giving more options and a new way to play the game.

    In Summary,

    PST:EE seems like a project where the bar has been set low compared to Beamdog's other releases. I don't buy the arguments that "adding anything to the game is bad" and that "the original game wouldn't have been better with it". Having Chris Avellone, the original designer, meant that there were opportunities to faithfully add original desired content to the base game.

    I don't buy arguments that adding more content would be too costly. There was existing coding to modify the base game optionally through a Story or HoF Mode selectable (or not) by the player. There was existing code to enable a version of Multiplayer. Bonus scenarios or content could have been delivered by re-using or modifying existing maps to minimize new asset costs.
    Post edited by billbisco on
    Abel
  • DoubledimasDoubledimas Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,286
    edited April 2017
    @billbisco
    From a more technical point of view

    1) I think that a simple copy of a story mode from the BG games would be problematic. This is due to the fact that in the BGs story mode gives you invincibility (and 25 strength) to enjoy more of the story. With PS:T,
    death and dying is not only one of possible options to take, it sometimes even mandatory to advance part of the story (the tomb comes to mind). Furthermore, 25 strength in PS:T does not gives you more 'story'. One would need to think about raising WIS or INT for that.
    Maybe there is a possibility to do something with these issues and let it behave in a different way, but a simple port from how Story Mode works in the other games seems not possible.
    Heart of Fury/Legacy of Bhaal would not help much out with improving the viability of the game. Combat is quite different from the BGs as in there are limited choices what to outfit/cast/do/strategy/etc in PS:T compared to the former games. However, with the engine being opened up for modding actions, there is a myriad of options to do this by modding (for example, seeing if SCS could be ported to PS:T). I think this is a bit undersold as a highly interesting point. The modding capabilities have been elevated to the same level as the BGs which opens up vast possibilities for the modding community to go out and enjoy modding in this new setting.

    2) Multiplayer seems highly unlikely to improve a game such as PS:T as it is highly focused on telling the story of TNO, and every action is only done by him (talking etc). Although I can see the comparison with CHARNAME from the BGs, there is in my opinion a huge difference in what is possible with controlling other characters in that game and in PS:T. If multiplayer would be created for PS:T, the only thing possible would be to move your companions around, fiddle with the inventory and do the combat work. Otherwise, for example if companions could also initiate talking or activate travel, it would seriously screw over the way this game works. And in my opinion, a multiplayer component is far from necessary unless you want to totally upend the way this game is supposed to be played.

    Other things

    3) Every extra thing that would be added, even if it is ok'ed by Chris Avellone, would be judged different and in the end only rub more people the wrong way than improve things in my opinion. Furthermore, although Chris might have wished to have been able to flesh out something more when this game was designed (almost 20 years ago) it seems that he, in the present, has no desire to go adding or expanding sections of the game (or at least, that is what I derived from one of the interviews). There is a big difference in those two things. Even the Unfinished Business was discussed with Chris (want it in or out?) and he decided against it. If that is not even something that went in because of Chris' vision of how the game should look in 'enhanced mode', why would even bigger alterations be fitting?
    Post edited by Doubledimas on
    lolientaclaneAncientCowboyThacoBell
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    edited April 2017
    @Doubledimas
    1. You are correct that PST is a little different and that noncombat stats make a bigger difference in dialogue options. Story mode should probably give a 21 or higher in all stats so that when playing through the game, you will be sure not to miss gameplay replies due to stats.

    As stated in the lost posts, area scripts would remove the Story Mode Immunity whenever the Nameless One or companions needed to "die", be "paralyzed", etc. So that's not a real issue. This mode would make the game more fun.

    1.5. Yes, combat is a little different in PST compared to BG, but that doesn't make a HoF mode less useful. I'd love to see a Nameless One no "combat death" run. Modding potential is nice, but we buy games because the base game is fun and varied enough on its own. HoF was a relatively easy feature to adapt to PSTEE that would have added a fun gameplay option not enabled previously

    2. Multiplayer would undeniably improve the game. When I have my brother and father over, being able to play the game with them is a great thing! Being able to play with my son is a great thing! This "Enhanced" edition isn't offering any new ways to game with those I love.

    If you don't want companions to be able to talk, rest, buy inventory, sleep, etc. then check off those options. But I don't accept in any way that having multiplayer inherently screws up a game. Bug test it like everything else.

    3. Sonic Adventure 2 Battle added new game modes and multiplayer levels over Sonic Adventure 2. Shining Force: Ressurection of Dark Dragon changed out all the spirtes and portraits, added more battles, 3 more companions, and a Game+ feature. All these changes made each game more fun and added new gameplay options. I don't accept the argument that adding anything to the game is bad. The people that feel that way are a small minority. If those people weren't a small minority, then we would not have a Dynasty Warriors 8, Dynasty Warriors 8: Xtreme Legends, & Dynasty Warriors 8: Empries. We would not have Street Fighter IV, Super Street Fighter IV, and Ultra Street Fighter IV. We would not have the myriad number of DLC that modern games offer.

    Let's be clear, people want game improvements (not merely alterations). There were opportunities to add improvements to the base game and in extra game modes or scenarios as suggested earlier. And yes these would be fitting ^_^

    I'll add a new one

    Female The Nameless One

    This one would have added more cost because of the need to create new renders and voice actors and putting those into the game. Modify the game slightly by replacing the game's lines to change from male to female. This would have necessitated creating new cutscene movies and might necessitate re-creating old ones because it might be hard to render the game in the same archaic ways of the past. (Don't want the Female TNO movies to look significantly better than the Male TNO movies).

    However, this definitely would have made the game a little more appealing to the game audience as a whole by giving more options and a new way to play the game.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    batoor
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    Shandyr said:

    Female Nameless One ?

    How is that supposed to work...?

    ... with Deionarra? If you add a female Nameless One then you would enter lesbian romance into the game UNLESS you change a lot about Deionarra as well. Deionarra's love for the Nameless One is one HUGE factor in the story of the game.

    And if you are going to include anything remotely related to LBGTQ in Planescape Torment then riots will happen. Death threats will be the least of our worries then because people would then want to actually literally see blood.


    So I fear the developers would actually not only jeopardize the future of Beamdog by doing that, but they would also put their lives at risk. Don't underestimate the haters' hatred.
    Yeah that wouldn't work without redoing a lot from scratch and I believe it's the same with new NPCs. The interpersonal relationships in the game are just too complicated for that imo.

    Sidequests and more minor additions could have worked though imo. That's something I think they should have tried to do more of in BG1EE and BG2EE overall. Instead of locking ALL of the new content behind the new npcs, except Black Pits...but I still haven't done that.
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    edited April 2017
    @Shandyr @batoor. Here are 3 possible options to handle that issue


    1. Use Deionarra as is and allow a lesbian relationship implied or at least a female TNO leading Deionarra on in a relationship even if the female TNO isn't gay.
    2. Rewrite the relationship to be a very devoted friendship and edit or remove audio samples as appropriately.
    3. When the female TNO is selected a new male version of Deionarra is present and referred to in the game. Keep the name Deionarra for the male or give a new name for the male version. Edit or delete audio samples as required referring to Deionarra. Create a new soundset, art, character model, and movies for the male version of Deionarra obviously.

    1 is the easiest to implement. 2 lacks passion as there is no "I will wait for you in Death's Halls my love"! 3 would be the most difficult but might have the best overall appeal.


    Changing relationships is not an issue with a female TNO; the main issue with a female TNO is cutscene and models. If the dev team were to recreate movies it makes sense to make an additional model or two and the associated work to accommodate a female TNO. If the dev team doesn't want to redo the cutscenes due to cost then it doesn't make sense to create a female TNO because they would have to create some new models to make it work.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Planescape is NOT like other games. A lot these simply wouldn't work without drastically changing the game. Try changing a classic a novel and pass it off the new canon edition. See what people do.
    [Deleted User]taclane
  • PekingduckmanPekingduckman Member Posts: 151
    The problem is, if your ideas are implemented, then a mob of purists would accuse Beamdog of "ruining" a classic game. Seeing the fallout of SoD as well as common criticisms of the new content in BG, at this stage it is better to play it safe and see how it develops.
    [Deleted User]
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    It's not like BG, because in PST the main character is fixed. All you determine is TNO's stats, but the character is a fixed, canonical character--and that character happens to be male.

    That's ignoring the technical costs of implementing new character models and building entirely new cutscenes throughout the game when there clearly wasn't time to rebuild them as it was.
    AncientCowboymlnevese
  • DoubledimasDoubledimas Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,286
    @billbisco I think that some of the suggestions you make for 'enhancements' go far beyond that scope and simply chance the nature of this game in a profound way. Multiplayer and TNO as female come to mind. I do agree that there might be a possibility to overcome issues with story mode as it is, and I can understand it depends on one's own view of what constitutes 'enhanced' and that we might disagree on that.

    Also, looking at the BG's I agree that the base game was good and fun, but what created true longetivity is the modding scene. Of course one could wish for a developer to put everything into the base game already, but if not it is great that the engine is now just as open as the other games creating potential for a lot of added adventures.
    KilivitzThacoBell
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    PST just IS story mode. You cannot get much more story mode than the normal game.
    Rawgrim
  • taclanetaclane Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 364
    Dee said:

    IThat's ignoring the technical costs of implementing new character models and building entirely new cutscenes throughout the game when there clearly wasn't time to rebuild them as it was.

    That is entirely how i feel about it too.

    I'm not the biggest Brontë fan, but changing the gender of TNO is up there with saying "I might like Jane Eyre better if the main character were a dude." After the initial pass of changing all the 'Janes' to 'Johns', then there would be a nearly endless pile of rework to make sure the story still works.

    Part of why everyone really admires the PST story is that in exchange for the lack of character customization, you are rewarded an extremely detailed, novel-like experience. I don't know if PST would be what it is today if the original team had to divide their time to branch out the game in ways to accommodate additional player preferences.
    DeeAncientCowboy
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    edited April 2017
    billbisco said:

    @Shandyr @batoor. Here are 3 possible options to handle that issue


    1. Use Deionarra as is and allow a lesbian relationship implied or at least a female TNO leading Deionarra on in a relationship even if the female TNO isn't gay.
    2. Rewrite the relationship to be a very devoted friendship and edit or remove audio samples as appropriately.
    3. When the female TNO is selected a new male version of Deionarra is present and referred to in the game. Keep the name Deionarra for the male or give a new name for the male version. Edit or delete audio samples as required referring to Deionarra. Create a new soundset, art, character model, and movies for the male version of Deionarra obviously.

    1 is the easiest to implement. 2 lacks passion as there is no "I will wait for you in Death's Halls my love"! 3 would be the most difficult but might have the best overall appeal.


    Changing relationships is not an issue with a female TNO; the main issue with a female TNO is cutscene and models. If the dev team were to recreate movies it makes sense to make an additional model or two and the associated work to accommodate a female TNO. If the dev team doesn't want to redo the cutscenes due to cost then it doesn't make sense to create a female TNO because they would have to create some new models to make it work.
    I don't believe the world would react exactly the same to a female nameless throughout the ages, memories/experiences would be different, ending of certain quests wouldn't be exactly the same...But that's how I view the game, but I'll think on this idea when I play through the game again, since it's been awhile and I've forgotten a lot. After awhile you wouldn't really end up with an enhanced edition though, but more like PST the revised edition...

    The problem is, if your ideas are implemented, then a mob of purists would accuse Beamdog of "ruining" a classic game. Seeing the fallout of SoD as well as common criticisms of the new content in BG, at this stage it is better to play it safe and see how it develops.

    That situation isn't comparable at all..SoD dealt with circumstances which were very ambiguous plot-wise, leaving Beamdog free to make whatever scenario they wanted as long as they followed the canon path where SoA started. What we're talking about here is actually changing established canon, which would make nerd rage a lot more ''justified''

    SoA still pretends SoD didn't happen btw, so it's not like the transition is entirely seamless. Especially due to the involvement of a certain NPC.

    Edit: Just to avoid misunderstanding, I didn't mean to condone review bombing and hateful reviews^^ I just meant in case there was such a such a big change to PST, then angry and unsatisfied fan reaction would be a lot more understandable from my point of view. And that's very different from being a ''hater''
    Post edited by batoor on
  • AncientCowboyAncientCowboy Member Posts: 199
    @taclane - Great analogy. Wisdom +1
    taclane
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    edited April 2017
    @Dee @taclane @batoor
    You can watch this video and hear Chris himself say at around 1 hour and 47 minutes say...

    "One reget we had was, we actually didn't want The Nameless One to sort of a have a static look in the game, we were just forced to have it. Like we would prefer it if you could have a female version and you could edit qualities about them. Character customization is such an important part of roleplaying games that we did want to allow for that, but we just didn't have the resources for it. "

    Chris has said the same thing before as shown in this tweet

    A more customizeable including female version was intended and desired. It would have better game and probably had better sales because we might have avoided that unappealing cover picture.

    The only reason not to include a female TNO is cost and it would have been nice had this original desired enhancement made it into the "Enhanced Edition".
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    SkanksmlnevesetaclaneRawgrim
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 440
    edited April 2017
    Makes little sense to change the game fundamentally. Is it flawed? Sure, especially so when it comes to character creation choices. But it wouldn't be an "enhanced edition" if these things were changed, it'd be an entirely new game, particularly with the massive changes necessary for changing the Nameless One's character.

    People still bitch about the EE companions in Baldur's Gate - maybe rightfully so. I left the forums for a while until they weren't full of toxicity about Mizhena. Beamdog played it safe with this one, because of its significance to people who know the game well. Some of the things @billbisco is saying are feasible, such as new difficulty settings (although story mode would need tweaking) and completely seperate content additions, a la Black Pits, but messing around with content too much seems to have caused the company issues in the past, which is why I think they didn't do some of these things.
    taclane
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 440
    billbisco said:

    It should have been possible to craft a scenario that would involve re-used maps and/or modified existing maps to save on cost and give more gameplay opportunities. This could have been done without modifying the base content of the main game.

    I'd rather not have Beamdog do a Dragon Age II to Planescape Torment, honestly. It'd come across as cheap, which it would most certainly be.

    I'm going to go back to playing the game now.
    taclane
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 363
    edited April 2017
    Can you imagine, instead of Deionarra, an all emotional oracle Adahn materializes out of thin air to "Greet you, my love"?

    You finally find Ravol, the night witcher, in a maze.

    Then instead of kissing Annah you seduce Vhailor's rusted armor and kiss Ignus on the cheek...ok, now the mental image is stuck in my head just like your mouth is stuck to Ignus' burning cheek.

    And Morte keeps hitting on you the whole time cause you're a female deader and he'd like to do *things* to you.
    taclaneAncientCowboy
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    billbisco said:

    @Dee @taclane @batoor
    You can watch this video and hear Chris himself say at around 1 hour and 47 minutes say...

    "One reget we had was, we actually didn't want The Nameless One to sort of a have a static look in the game, we were just forced to have it. Like we would prefer it if you could have a female version and you could edit qualities about them. Character customization is such an important part of roleplaying games that we did want to allow for that, but we just didn't have the resources for it. "

    Chris has said the same thing before as shown in this tweet

    A more customizeable including female version was intended and desired. It would have better game and probably had better sales because we might have avoided that unappealing cover picture.

    The only reason not to include a female TNO is cost and it would have been nice had this original desired enhancement made it into the "Enhanced Edition".

    There is a significant difference between original concept and finished product. Changes like this would make it a completely different story. If this was just about any other game, I would agree with you.
    taclane
  • taclanetaclane Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 364
    ThacoBell said:

    There is a significant difference between original concept and finished product. Changes like this would make it a completely different story. If this was just about any other game, I would agree with you.

    Exactly. You sometimes have to take the developer's "we wanted to do this and that" commentary with a grain of salt. If the later-released design documents are any indication, the team committed to something resembling the finished story pretty early on.

    I don't think there have been too many hints that things like character customization or expanded plane-travel were developed and then cut. They essentially never were. Feature creep kills projects, and it feels like many of these design decisions were made before the production phase was well underway.
    ThacoBell
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    edited April 2017
    Dee said:

    It's not like BG, because in PST the main character is fixed. All you determine is TNO's stats, but the character is a fixed, canonical character--and that character happens to be male.

    That's ignoring the technical costs of implementing new character models and building entirely new cutscenes throughout the game when there clearly wasn't time to rebuild them as it was.

    Another problem for me is how do you re-create the exact same style of cutscenes used in the IE games back then? Are the tools for that even available anymore? You might say they don't look that good anymore, but it's a style I like.

    Even that fantastic intro would have to be changed:(
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    edited April 2017
    We can argue all day about what the proper definition of "enhanced" is regarding videogames - billbisco seems to be adamant about his own definition.

    I believe, however, that there's no arguing when it comes to the distinction between enhancing/improving a game and not only changing its identity, but the whole experience.

    From what I've seen so far, Beamdog has made all the right decisions with PST:EE. First by bringing Avellone to oversee things and give everything a sense of legitimacy. Then by making sensible changes that actually improve gameplay without changing the look and feel of it. The new menus look great - it doesn't feel like we're playing a completely different game.

    To sum it up: I've nothing bad to say about PST:EE so far, except that we really need a "The Abyss" button (I'm playing the Android version and it's weird not being able to quit. Back button doesn't seem to work). I wish they had approached BG and BG2 with the same reverence, but I guess it's too late for that - also, hindsight is 20/20, isn't it?
    proccotaclanePeccaJuliusBorisov
  • 11302101130210 Member Posts: 381
    Yeah... reminds me of my college experience. I got a B on an exam and had to accept the criticism.

    Then, I had a large group workshop in my upper-level writing class, and I always have to accept the criticism from my peers regardless of how inane I think their feedback is. I think it's cool you're doing this. I've seen forums where the mods ban people because they hate opinions, I'm glad it was just a misunderstanding and that isn't happening here.

    Soo ya..
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