Ahh, two old friends seeing each other after many years. Glad my thread brought you together!
Really good games aren't just for leisure or enjoyment--they can build actual relationships if you let them.
100% true story: of the eight people who I am not related to by blood and who I have remained in continuous contact with for the longest, one is my wife (who was my high-school sweetheart), one is my brother's wife (who was his high-school sweetheart), one is my best friend from high school, and five are friends I made on a Baldur's Gate discussion board back in 2000. (BGDungeon, for anyone who goes waaaaaaaay back).
(I've actually known those five about three months longer than my best friend and a year and a half longer than my own wife.) I've only met one of those five in person. The first time I met him was when he came to my wedding. (He was invited, he didn't crash.)
Again, let's not oversell the data. I am *not* saying "there is no possible situation in which Imoen will be more powerful than Nalia". I can give all sorts of situations. If you go to Spellhold as either a solo rogue or a rogue with Haer'Dalis and Yoshimo, and you reach Imoen at 660k XP, she'll join you with about 500,000 more XP than you have. Nalia can never do that.
Lots gets lost in text. To fill in the blanks: Unless you are doing some specific run (like soling a rogue, or only getting these two NPC's, or some other niche/abnormal scenario), then okay, not every situation Nalia will be better in. But in such situations we are talking about exceptions, not rules. In fact, to find a situation where Imoen is better than Nalia you would actually have to dig and find niche situations, as you just did.
And while the math is the math and not really subject to debate, the math itself is not a terminal value, it is used to fuel a value judgment, and that is absolutely not "irrefutable". I claim that the "typical run" will leave Imoen 750k XP behind. That's very much open to debate, because "typical" is not a mathematical claim, but a sociological one, and it's not like I've run any studies on it.
There is nothing wrong with generalising. All ideas are generalisations, and then you can get into the finer details with evidence. You have already provided the evidence for the majority of typical situations. You would need very specific scenarios where Imoen would turn out to be the mathematically better option than Nalia.
"Also, as quite another aside, let's not confuse "more powerful" with "better". They're very different things."
Let's not "lawyer," either. Everyone knows what I meant by "better" (more powerful) when that is the context what the conversation was about. We were discussing which NPC is more powerful (we had already left the RP stuff behind, since that is very subjective and there is no "better" in that realm).
"It shows that she'll be 1-3 levels higher, (typically 2-3), and then I add the value judgment that 1-3 levels is more valuable than 2 ring slots. But that value judgment is very much open to debate. Others can and will feel differently, and that doesn't make them "wrong", it means they place different subjective weights on different subjective factors."
This is true. You have actually proven why you think the way you do, and it is more than convincing enough, since you actually backed it up with evidence and numbers - something no one else has bothered to do.
" "Or, in other words, everyone is free to disagree."
People are free to disagree that 1+1=2 as well, but it doesn't make them correct by doing so. As a quick side note, it's a funny trend I have noticed in the world today, where it is now "offensive" to tell someone they are outright wrong. If someone says 2+2=5, the socially acceptable position is "well, yes... I can see it from your point of view." Instead of "no, you are wrong. Go back and try again." I note that your "well, everyone has their own perspective" post got more "likes" than your "here are the actual facts." It's very telling about the way people think. It is because it makes people feel good, but we lose out on objective truth in the process.
But that's my own grievance as a philosophical absolutist. Some things in life, there really are right and wrong or better/worse options, and you have actually outlined them in this thread for the majority of plausible scenarios (not looking at niche exceptions).
Nalia is better (more powerful) than Imoen. You have mathematically proven this already, and it actually is a fact at this point (again, outside of niche or situational circumstances geared towards specific playthroughs or whatever - just purely looking at the numbers). Yes, no one likes to hear these things if they like Imoen - but that doesn't make them less true. Oh well. That's life.
@Nuin , I have to take @Wandering_Ranger 's part on this one: a lot of Nalia's ToB dialogue suggests her venturing down a darker path, and although I do appreciate the argument that all of the PCs are given enough nuance to suggest the capacity for Evil action, it is the focus of many more banters for Nalia than for others - moreso than Korgan or Viconia by the time you reach ToB. It doesn't mean she is Evil, but it seems quite clear that the writers wanted to allude to that possibility more with Nalia than the other non-Evil NPCs.
Atop the dialogues that Wandering Ranger has so diligently cited, I vaguely recall an admission at the end of the saga when you are forced to make a choice about your heritage, whereby Nalia acknowledges the possibility that seizing Godhood as you are being asked to would be too much for her, and she doesn't think she would wield it responsibly (I would need somebody to check my facts on this one, I admit).
Not that BG loyally stood by attributes in all of their writing endeavours, but it is worth adding also that Nalia has 9 wisdom - nevermind the fact that this is lower than the wisdom of her Arcane counterparts, it is lower than every other NPCs wisdom save for Minsc, Korgan and Wilson! As such, falling down that rabbit hole or deviating from her intended course in pursuit of the power which would allow her to achieve her benevolent ambitions does not feel like an outrageous epilogue for her. Certainly, a lot of the possibilities that Nalia would be considering should she venture down that path would be "best left to aged sages", but she can go toe-to-toe with most of them and I'd wager she isn't older than 21, so I daresay she mightn't feel the need to leave those musings to aged sages given the opportunity to prove her own mettle. Youthful ambition is a perilous thing.
We'll just have to disagree, because from where I'm sitting the fact that she is able to admit her faults is proof that there's a very good chance that she's just going to be fine, for example. You don't expect that kind of thing from one so young.
For the record, I did bother to re-read all her ToB dialogue and banter before making my posts in this thread. I stand by my opinion on the matter.
This discussion (above) of the mathematics revolves around the mechanism used by the game to determine what level of Imoen to give you when you rescue her ... but is that still correct? In v2.0+, BG2ee changed the level-at-recruitment algorithm.
It used to be the case (in pre-EE and earlier versions of EE) that the level of a new recruit was calculated by averaging the levels of the whole party (with no rounding), and then giving you the highest-level version of the new recruit in the game files whose level was strictly lower than that calculated average (er ... except that I seem to recall that Anomen was an exception in the pre-EE game, joining at a higher level than this algorithm would yield ... although that may have been simply a bug).
It is now the case that the level-averaging algorithm has been replaced by a calculation which simply takes the XP total of the protagonist alone (adding both XP scores in the case of multi-classed and dual-classed protagonists) rounded down to the nearest quarter-million and limited to a maximum of 1.25M ... so it's now purely XP-based, not affected by different classes levelling at different rates, and not affected by multi-classing etc. For the new EE NPCs, it then gives you the highest level-version of the recruit in the game files which has less than that rounded-down XP calculation ... but for original-game NPCs, it instead gives you the lowest-level version of the NPC available in the game files (and ignores higher-level versions, which are now redundant, even if below the rounded-down XP of your protagonist). Then the game adds extra XP to the new recruit to equal the rounded-down XP of your protagonist, but leaves it to you to level them up manually (if the addition qualifies them to level up), so that you can allocate any additional proficiency and skill points however you wish.
I suspect that the sometimes-perverse results caused by the old algorithm (when dual-classed companions were present) were a substantial part of the reason why the devs changed the algorithm in more recent versions. The new system produces much more sensible results, IMO. (Well done, Beamdog!)
As an illustration of the new mechanism in action, I attach a savegame from earlier in my current run, right at the very point when Imoen is recruited in Spellhold (this is an Evil run in which I sided with Bodhi, so Yoshimo was unavailable and I took Hexxat to Spellhold instead - it's Hexxat who is now about to be swapped out to make room for Imoen). Under the old level-averaging algorithm, Imoen at this point would have just narrowly missed out on the higher-level version (average level = ((4 x 13) + (11 + 13) / 2 + (11 + 12) / 2) / 6 = 12.583), and so would have joined as level 11 with 400KXP. With the new algorithm (I'm running v2.3.67.3), Imoen joins as level 11 but with 1.25MXP (i.e. max, because the dual-classed protagonist has more than 1.25M when you sum his classes), so you can instantly level her up to level 13 (and in doing so, allocate her level 12 proficiency point wherever you wish).
This changed algorithm thus changes some of the arguments above, at least if you're playing EE. (Of course the arguments above still apply if you're still playing pre-EE or an old version of EE.) Broadly speaking, it makes Imoen less gimped by level-lag, so she's now more competitive with Nalia even if you don't rush to Spellhold at the very earliest possible opportunity ... although she'll still be severely lagging if you delay Spellhold until after you've completed a large portion of what's available in Chapter 2.
That explains why, in a test load I did this morning, I'd Keepered a protagonist to 500k to simulate being post-SoD, and Imoen, Jaheira, and Minsc had 500k XP upon joining, which I thought was odd because I didn't remember it working that way.
I really didn't pay attention but I could play with it some. I do like if that's the way it's going to be.
Somesort said: "The bare minimum amount of XP you have to receive before recruiting Imoen is as follows:
* 89,000 for starting the game with a non-imported character. * Sneak through Irenicus dungeon. Pickpocket the Sewer Golem key. Just eat the traps rather than disarming. Leave Jahiera and Minsc to rot. You get 20,000 split three ways for destroying the Mephit portals, plus 34,500 for everyone for escaping the dungeon. That'll put you at around 130,000 XP. * Sell whatever you pocketed from the dungeon for a couple potions of master thievery. Feed them to Yoshimo and then go on a stealing/selling rampage until you have unlimited money. Buy whatever gear you want and pay Gaelen Bayle for 45,000 XP. * Do Linvail's three quests. He'll give you 107k unavoidable quest XP, plus you'll be forced to get some combat XP during the process. * Run away from the Vampires in Brynnlaw, Kill Perth (20,000 XP), and go straight into the asylum.
So you're already at 282k as a bare minimum from quest XP alone by the time you rescue Imoen, plus whatever you got from combat in the process. That's 354k if you imported from BG1. But, like, this is insane levels of rushing, levels that make no sense whatsoever. Why would you not kill anything in Chateau Irenicus, before Imoen has even been captured?
More realistically, even if you abuse pickpocket to get the 15,000 gold and don't do a single quest, you're already looking at about 375k XP. And if you do this, you'll get an Imoen who also has about 375k XP. So really, the best case scenario is if you use one of the bigger exploits in the game and rush to the maximum possible degree you can get an Imoen who has the same amount of XP that you have."
Talk about cherry-picking for an argument. SomeSort showed in that above comment what would happen in the best possible scenario (one which leaves you horrifically undergeared and underleveled, and is actually impractical - no one would do it except to rush) to get Imoen early. You chose to only address his own situational circumstance for your argument, not the objective facts he presented.
I didn't cherry pick a thing. This math doesn't refute what I've said. In fact. The lower level version of Imoen as has been pointed out starts with about 400k xp and insane levels of rushing puts you well under her minimum xp. Her higher level version actually has more. So Kill the vampires that for some reason your avoiding in this. Your still under.
Underleveled and undergeared is also a matter of perspective.
but you know what? Believe what you want. Your argueing hard enough for it even while telling me your not.
"The lower level version of Imoen as has been pointed out starts with about 400k xp and insane levels of rushing puts you well under her minimum xp."
Insane amount of rushing is a problem, as has already been pointed out.
"Underleveled and undergeared is also a matter of perspective. "
But Nalia being better than Imoen isn't. It's a matter of math.
"Believe what you want. Your argueing hard enough for it even while telling me your not."
Now, here we find some common ground. His approach has annoyed me as well. Not only did he bring up the whole Nalia is better than Imoen thing (it's not what my OP is about), he then goes all the way and definitively (mathematically) proves his point brilliantly, before backpedalling to basically say "perspective, man" (I presume it's so he comes across as friendly). People really need to be okay with being wrong, as you are wrong now. It's totally fine. That's how you learn, if you are open to it.
If you don't accept the mathematics presented before you (or come up with mathematical counter-points, as Gallowglass did - kudos, Gallow), there's nothing that can ever convince you. 2+2 isn't 5 and it never will be. Nothing to do with perspectives.
As for Gallowglass' post, you have merely moved the goalposts. While the new mechanism is certainly better than the old (because it only focuses on the protagonist), it still doesn't do much for Imoen's case. There are still the two scenarios:
1) Rush Imoen to get her lower level version (problems with this have been comprehensively covered so I won't repeat them)
2) Wait until protagonist has enough XP to get the higher level version. Generally speaking, the protagonist will be close to the level of experience of the rest of your party anyway, so this isn't as revolutionary as you make it out to be. If you are playing "normally" (ie, full or close to full party), this scenario means that you will cover a huge amount of the side-quests in the game before you ever get to Imoen just so you can get her at the high level.
So it's either you rush and face huge problems, or you don't rush but then miss out on Imoen's presence for a huge chunk of the game. Either way, it isn't great and getting her depends on you planning things out carefully. If Nalia is fiddly with rings, then Imoen is fiddly with something far worse - experience points. You have to plan it out just right if you want her to be close to your level of experience.
Further, 1.25 million XP is a decent amount (it's around level 14 or so for most classes), and it takes a while to get to if you have a party. Even a few members will slow this down, so a lot of questing is needed to get you there. If you choose a higher level Imoen, you spend most of the time without her - so what use is she at that point anyway? She'd only be around for end-game content, and whoever was "covering" for her in that time has obviously proven more than capable in the role. In other words, Imoen is only viable for RP-ers or people who like her.
Here is another way to think about it: Who are the least played NPC's in BG1? It's those who are late into the game - Quayle, Tiax, Skie, Eldoth, Faldorn, etc. Why? Because you already have your party set by that point. Imoen is literally these NPC's - the ONLY difference is that she is relevant to the actual story and they aren't, so it feels like you should have her. If she was just some random NPC you could pick up at Spellhold, she'd never see playtime because no one would bother going through all these hoops for a "Tiax" or whatever (unless for RP reasons or because you liked the NPC - that's subjective). I am purely talking about mathematically optimal choices here, since that is what topic we are on.
Since Nalia can do EVERYTHING Imoen can with no issues, Imoen is literally unnecessary. As has been said, thief skills are threshold skills - you either have enough points in them or you don't. And Nalia does.
We'll just have to disagree, because from where I'm sitting the fact that she is able to admit her faults is proof that there's a very good chance that she's just going to be fine, for example. You don't expect that kind of thing from one so young.
For the record, I did bother to re-read all her ToB dialogue and banter before making my posts in this thread. I stand by my opinion on the matter.
She did turn out fine, so we already know what happens. That wasn't the argument. The argument was that Nalia (unlike other good characters), exhibits traits of domineering over others, superiority, power and so on. These are generally associated with evil NPC's. Compare Nalia to other good NPC's, like Mazzy or Aerie. What I argued for Nalia is not true of them. They have no other "dark dimensions" to them.
The very fact that Sarevok bothers pointing out these things to Nalia is telling. It's a good bit of psychology. But even the rest of her conversations and her interactions with others in ToB are telling. In any case, it never happened, I was just pointing out what a fascinating character she was because the seeds for an alignment change were definitely there. She's an in-depth character. It just sucks they never explored this to its full potential. But if such a thing happened, it wouldn't be very shocking because Nalia exhibits such traits already. If Aerie or Mazzy turned, now THAT would be a shock and totally against all that was shown of them.
Think of Dany from Game of Thrones (CG alignment, definitely). She isn't opposed to crucifying the masters for the people she cares for, nor killing others in general. Nalia in SoA I could see would be against such extreme acts. ToB Nalia? I'm not so sure. She grows arrogant, domineering, and "less friendly" (as Aerie so euphemistically puts it), and says outright that she is powerful now, which has essentially distanced her from other people. How far she is willing to take that power and what she wants to do with it is what is in question here.... A question raised by certain tell-tale signs throughout her conversations and attitude towards others. Sarevok sees this and points it out. She never actually refutes it, either, she just swats it aside.
Your argument is dependent upon her admitting her faults. But people can change. Her "faults" as she perceives them today she may consider virtues tomorrow. My arguments rests on these little signs throughout that can paint a different picture, especially if you read her dialogues through that lens. In any case, it didn't happen and we know she turned out to be a good person after the adventures with the Bhaalspawn. It was just a fun thought experiment based on some evidence given to us.
Anyway, this is a totally subjective argument, so if you haven't accepted these things after you went through the dialogues, then you never will. There's nothing else to convince you with (people either see it or they don't, and arguments can go either way), so I agree to agree to disagree.
I would, in Nally's ToB banters offer the interaction with Imoen where she states that they are both archmages now, and that when she gets back home, she will start putting things to rights, even trying to join the Cowled Wizards to change some of their policies. I have only taken Sarevok once for part of a runthrough and that one never came up, alas.
Well, we could pick apart individual answers all day. The idea was to look at the whole through a different lens and get a feel for the mentality for the purposes of character depth. The Sarevok one I had brought up as the prime example due to the fact that he specifically spells it out for both her and the player. It's the "lightbulb" moment when you can begin noticing different behavioural patterns and such. After all, we know what Sarevok was capable of, and if he sensed these same things within Nalia (which are backed, less obviously, by her other interactions), then it gives us some food for thought.
But as I say, at the end of the day, that is just a bit of speculative fun for the player. We know how the story ends, after all.
I'm still not sure why Sarevok's conversation is a big deal, like I said he's basically just stating the obvious for anyone with power. Nalia's responses are much more important IMO, and there she demonstrates her resolve to keep trying even when results don't always turn out the way you want. Sarevok, however, does not know what such resolve means so he thinks he's on to Nalia (probably thinking she's in denial or something) when he actually just doesn't know what he's seeing in her - he only realizes the value of faith in the very end (after the game ends), if his alignment changes. Hell if his alignment changes he even considers that Nalia might be right in that particular discussion, and then he just repeats his warning.
Ultimately, I think even if someone does introduce a "turn the good NPCs to evil mod" Nalia should be one of the hardest to turn, alongside Minsc and Mazzy. She just doesn't have anyone larger than a MGSH left to be used against her (unlike Keldorn), and her resolve combined with her rebellious streak works in her favor. In her dialogues, she even knows when to back away and just be happy for someone instead of forcing the issue.
And I already pointed how each character has a flaw that could easily be a seed for evil. Aerie, unlike Nalia, hasn't considered how to deal with the fact that she just became one of the most powerful spellcasters in the world at something like 1/100 the time it took for someone like Elminster to get there. She also doesn't seem to have learned to accept that there will always be evil in the world in her conversations with everyone. Like I said, her newfound power, outrage and naivete make for a dangerous combination. On a mod, that's a tragedy waiting to happen.
As for stats, I just don't know. NPC stats tend to be selectively flexible as far as the story/plot are concerned.
I'm still not sure why Sarevok's conversation is a big deal, like I said he's basically just stating the obvious for anyone with power. Nalia's responses are much more important IMO, and there she demonstrates her resolve to keep trying even when results don't always turn out the way you want.
I have already pointed out that he wasn't talking about *anyone* with power, he was talking *specifically* about Nalia. All NPC's by that point are extremely powerful, yet Nalia is the one Sarevok picks out to talk to. Why? Because she exhibits these "dangerous" traits.
As for Nalia's responses, they are shaky and unsure. "I... I'm a good person!" - "It... it isn't like that!" After that, she just swats him aside. She never actually refutes what he has to say. If we are talking about psychology, this is the subconscious workings of the mind.
"her resolve combined with her rebellious streak works in her favor."
Her rebellious streak is exactly what could get her into trouble. It's chaotic, and due to her passion, she may be led astray (think Star Wars).
Nalia is a passionate young woman with great ideal. Her SoA self is extremely idealistic, while her ToB form is a lot more pragmatic and assertive. My entire argument was that if she continued down that path, it could have led to an alignment change because the seeds were there. That's it. You even agreed that you could see what I was talking about, but disagreed that an alignment change was possible. Which is fine, the story ends well for her and she stays good. My hypothesis was merely a thought experiment, and an interesting one because of Nalia's complexity as a character (which I pointed out in previous posts already).
Anyway, as I said, this is a discussion going nowhere. It's subjective. You either "get it" or you don't. If you do, it makes for an interesting viewpoint, and if you don't then that's fine too. You already agreed to disagree - and I agreed. Let's just leave it at that, because this could literally go on forever.
Lots gets lost in text. To fill in the blanks: Unless you are doing some specific run (like soling a rogue, or only getting these two NPC's, or some other niche/abnormal scenario), then okay, not every situation Nalia will be better in. But in such situations we are talking about exceptions, not rules. In fact, to find a situation where Imoen is better than Nalia you would actually have to dig and find niche situations, as you just did.
We're kind of getting far afield here, so I'll bury my response in spoiler tags and encourage everyone else to just skip right past it.
[spoiler]This is not a case of something getting lost in the text. I was responding to a post where you said "There is no one scenario which mathematically makes Imoen the viable choice. If you have such a scenario, do the numbers yourself and show us." There's not a lot of ambiguity in that statement.
I responded with "let's not oversell the data", and then I followed your request and did the numbers to show you one scenario which mathematically made Imoen the viable choice, (Solo rogue reaching Spellhold with 700k XP). You now concede that there are situations, (more than one, even!), where Imoen will outperform Nalia. It seems you agree that you were originally overselling the data when you said there was "no one scenario".
Given how passionately you seem to believe that people should admit when they are wrong, this would prove an opportune time.
This is true. You have actually proven why you think the way you do, and it is more than convincing enough, since you actually backed it up with evidence and numbers - something no one else has bothered to do.
My argument is based on value-claims which I support with fact-claims. My argument is convincing enough to you because you accept my fact-claims and agree with my value-claims. But value-claims are not fact-claims, and they are not subject to proof or disproof.
Someone with a different set of value-claims can find my argument unconvincing without disagreeing with my fact-claims in the slightest, and this does not make them "wrong". Values are opinion and therefore not something one is wrong about.
Let me illustrate this with a parable. (Fittingly for this discussion, a parable is a story that's determined not to let fact get in the way of truth.)
A woman is walking down the road when she sees two brothers arguing. "Dear sirs", she says, "I could use your help. I wanted to know what the most powerful character is in all of Baldur's Gate 2."
The first brother says "Dear lady, it is fortunate you asked, because I just so happen to know. The most powerful character in Baldur's Gate 2 is a Kensai dual-classed at level 9 to Mage."
The second brother says "Dear lady, you must forgive my brother's ignorance. He is right about the class but wrong about the specifics. Truly, you should dual-class your Kensai over to Mage at level 21."
The lady thanks them both for their help and continues down the road.
Which brother is right? Neither of them-- everyone knows that the most powerful character in Baldur's Gate is a Sorcerer. But in terms of the two characters they mentioned, the first brother is right that the Kensai(9)>M is more powerful than the Kensai(21)>M... and the second is right that the opposite is true, as well. It just depends on values!
If, upon completion of the game, the two characters engaged in a duel to the death... well, the K(21) would almost certainly be favored as he is obviously the more powerful character. But if we measured how difficult each character found the game to be, the K(9) would definitely get the edge as he spent most of the game as the more powerful character.
The answer the brothers gave said nothing important about the classes they recommended, but quite a good deal about their own values.
" "Or, in other words, everyone is free to disagree."
People are free to disagree that 1+1=2 as well, but it doesn't make them correct by doing so. As a quick side note, it's a funny trend I have noticed in the world today, where it is now "offensive" to tell someone they are outright wrong. If someone says 2+2=5, the socially acceptable position is "well, yes... I can see it from your point of view." Instead of "no, you are wrong. Go back and try again." I note that your "well, everyone has their own perspective" post got more "likes" than your "here are the actual facts." It's very telling about the way people think. It is because it makes people feel good, but we lose out on objective truth in the process.
But that's my own grievance as a philosophical absolutist. Some things in life, there really are right and wrong or better/worse options, and you have actually outlined them in this thread for the majority of plausible scenarios (not looking at niche exceptions).
Nalia is better (more powerful) than Imoen. You have mathematically proven this already, and it actually is a fact at this point (again, outside of niche or situational circumstances geared towards specific playthroughs or whatever - just purely looking at the numbers). Yes, no one likes to hear these things if they like Imoen - but that doesn't make them less true. Oh well. That's life.
You open your post by accusing me of reading you uncharitably, and then you close with this? A more uncharitable reading of what I actually said I could not possibly imagine.
Notice the sentence you quoted. Particularly, the beginning. "Or, in other words". That phrase indicates I am restating something else I had just said in another way to make it easier to understand. What else had I just said? You conveniently left that bit of context out.
I'll provide it here, with emphasis added: "this isn't an argument that one side has "won", or even an argument that one "wins" in the first place. This is a friendly discussion between people with different subjective value weights, none of which is right or wrong. The data is presented to inform value judgments, but it does not demand certain value judgments. Or, in other words, everyone is free to disagree."
I wasn't making some sweeping claim about fact in general or giving permission for people to create their own reality. I was saying that *this particular discussion* was very much rooted in opinion-claims and not fact-claims, so people were free in *this particular instance* to reach a different conclusion.
Let's go back to my parable again. I'll ask you a very simple question: who is more powerful, mathematically speaking, at the level cap in ToB: Nalia or Imoen? (Hint: the answer, speaking entirely mathematically and limiting myself exclusively to the realm of fact, is Imoen.)
I consider Nalia more powerful than Imoen because I prefer to judge power as an average throughout the campaign rather than merely a snapshot at the end of it. But notice that p-word there... I *prefer*. This is a value-statement, not a fact-statement. There is nothing in the phrase "most powerful" that makes that tautologically the best measure to use.
Someone with a different value-statement-- someone who "prefers" to rate power as maximum achievable potential, say-- could reach a different conclusion without the slightest disagreement over the facts involved. "Sure, Nalia is better through the end of Shadows of Amn, but once you reach midway through Throne of Bhaal Imoen passes her and never looks back." That is an inarguably true statement!
Because two people who agree on the facts can disagree on the conclusions, everyone is free to disagree on this. It's totally reasonable to do so. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.
You seem to suggest that I'm too concerned with being polite or liked to tell people that they are wrong, and that I should be willing to tell people things as they are and not as they wish they could be. I disagree with the diagnosis, but I'm all-too-happy to follow the prescription.
You say that I have mathematically proven that Nalia is more powerful than Imoen. You are wrong.[/spoiler]
You seem to be getting quite touchy now, and it's really difficult to respond to you in a non-hostile or non-rude manner, so I don't think I want to converse with you further after this. As an absolutist, relativism (when there is little to no room for it) makes my blood boil. The debate has remained civil up until this point and I don't want it to degenerate into stupidity (which relativism naturally brings on). Thanks for the "cute" story as well, but we are not children so there is no need for such things. Do not talk down to me or anyone else. It smacks of pretentiousness. Stick to numbers, because they serve you better.
You have mathematically proven it, even if you don't agree (though I don't believe that - no one pushes a point so hard to just say "oh, I don't actually believe it though"), and as I said in a previous post, "Not only did he (ie, you) bring up the whole Nalia is better than Imoen thing (it's not what my OP is about), he then goes all the way and definitively (mathematically) proves his point brilliantly, before backpedalling to basically say "perspective, man"
By introducing your so-called "value judgements," you are attempting to muddy the waters - but unless someone can plausibly SHOW that your value-judgement is wrong, then you are correct. It's really that simple.
The reason this thread was going so well is because we managed to stick to numbers. These are facts. You are now attempting to introduce relativity into it, which is a digression. What is particularly frustrating about it is that no one asked you to come to my thread - you did it of your own free will. I never even said Nalia was better than Imoen - that wasn't the point of this thread. Yet you brought that up too, including rankings and other statistics no one asked for. You then pushed the point to its maximum, which convinced me, and I agreed with you and said it is irrefutable (due to the objective math behind it).
If you are all about relativism, then respect my "relative perspective" and leave it at that. But no, you have to now backpedal just to pay lip service to how "accepting" you are of other people's opinions. Relax. No one is accusing you of anything.
I can't thank you enough for your brilliant analysis of the situation, but if this was my own personal thread, you would at this point be banned from it for being snarky, rude, condescending, and so forth. I do not appreciate being lectured, especially not by a relativist, who are so afraid of making absolute judgements that they run a mile from them like vampires from garlic - even when the truth is objective. In my other discussion on this thread concerning Nalia's mentality, I can agree to disagree with Nuin because we are talking about something that really is rooted in opinion. So there's a time for relativity and a time for absolutism. OUR discussion falls into the latter camp. We both agree on the virtues of Nalia, and yet we now we are at odds because (for whatever reason) you just can't stand me making absolutist pronouncements. To be frank: get over it. Why not just leave me to make them? After all "everyone is entitled to their opinion," so leave me to mine without being rude and pretentious.
There's no need for this to get worse, and get worse it will if we continue down this path, so let's just part ways amicably before that happens.
I am quite sure we can both be more productive with our time. Thanks for your contributions (up until this point, anyway). Farewell.
Now, here we find some common ground. His approach has annoyed me as well. Not only did he bring up the whole Nalia is better than Imoen thing (it's not what my OP is about), he then goes all the way and definitively (mathematically) proves his point brilliantly, before backpedalling to basically say "perspective, man" (I presume it's so he comes across as friendly). People really need to be okay with being wrong, as you are wrong now. It's totally fine. That's how you learn, if you are open to it.
[spoiler]Here's the argument that I made, broken down into its component parts: 1. There are specific mechanics that determine how much XP Imoen is awarded on recruitment. 2. Based on those mechanics and what I assume to be typical play, Imoen will typically be 1-3 levels behind Nalia 3. Imoen's greatest innate advantage over Nalia can be offset by sacrificing one of Nalia's ring slots and memorizing a knock spell or two. (The other ring slot is already permanently sacrificed to her signet ring.) 4. In terms of power, 1-3 levels is better than 1-2 ring slots and a level 2 spell slot or two.
1 was a fact-claim which was true through 1.3, but which apparently is false as of 2.0. So insofar as my "mathematical proof" relied on it, my "mathematical proof" was wrong. But let's just assume we're talking about a 1.3 environment, (I play on iPad, so that's what I have).
2 isn't strictly a fact-claim, since I've not really defined "typical", and it'd be hard to prove one way or another. I really have no definitive idea of what level most players are when they go to spellhold and what their party composition usually is. Despite the fact that this statement is not "mathematically proven", I still feel it's on pretty solid epistemic footing.
3 I don't think is really in dispute by either side.
4 is... oh hey, here's where we get to the part that's a value-claim instead of a fact-claim. Because 4 is true of all values of N less than 22 and false for all values of N greater than or equal to 22. So what I'm really saying is "the difference in power advantage prior to level 22 and power defecit after level 22 is great enough for me to call Nalia more powerful overall".
But that's not a fact-claim! That's an opinion-claim! There's no mathematical proof for it because no such mathematical proof could possibly exist, any more than I could prove that an early-dual was more powerful than a late-dual.
And this is why I was pumping the brakes. Because you were saying I was proving things that I was never proving. I was making arguments, I was advancing a case. Built as it us on a value-statement, the underlying argument can only be accomplished through persuasion, not proof.
Both Nalia and Imoen exist as points along the Pareto frontier of the power curve. Neither represents a straight Pareto improvement over the other. I can argue that I would prefer one point on the frontier over the other, but the fundamental nature of Pareto optimality is such that any preferences are strictly based on individual values and not mathematical comparison.
As for Gallowglass' post, you have merely moved the goalposts. While the new mechanism is certainly better than the old (because it only focuses on the protagonist), it still doesn't do much for Imoen's case. There are still the two scenarios:
1) Rush Imoen to get her lower level version (problems with this have been comprehensively covered so I won't repeat them)
2) Wait until protagonist has enough XP to get the higher level version. Generally speaking, the protagonist will be close to the level of experience of the rest of your party anyway, so this isn't as revolutionary as you make it out to be. If you are playing "normally" (ie, full or close to full party), this scenario means that you will cover a huge amount of the side-quests in the game before you ever get to Imoen just so you can get her at the high level.
So it's either you rush and face huge problems, or you don't rush but then miss out on Imoen's presence for a huge chunk of the game. Either way, it isn't great and getting her depends on you planning things out carefully. If Nalia is fiddly with rings, then Imoen is fiddly with something far worse - experience points. You have to plan it out just right if you want her to be close to your level of experience.
You have badly misunderstood Gallowglass's post.
Gallowglass says that at any point you recruit an NPC, that NPC starts as the lowest-level version in the files, but with an experience point value equal to the protagonist's current total rounded down to the nearest quarter-million.
The lowest-level version of Imoen in the files has 400k XP. So here's how many XP Imoen will have based on how many XP you have when you recruit her.
0-499,999 XP: 400k XP for Imoen 500,000-749,999 XP: 500k XP for Imoen 750,000-999,999 XP: 750k XP for Imoen 1,000,000-1,249,999 XP: 1m XP for Imoen 1,250,000+ XP: 1.25m XP for Imoen
In other words, it's possible for Imoen to have more XP than you still, but it's now *impossible for Imoen to be more than 250k XP behind you* unless you have over 1.5m XP, (which you generally won't even in a completionist run).
Assuming you're not regularly getting to Imoen with less than 500k XP or more than 1.5m XP, then even if you make no effort to metagame her recruitment, on average Imoen will be just 125k XP behind the protagonist.
If that's really how the mechanics work now, that makes Imoen "mathematically superior" to Nalia by the same logic that I preferred Nalia to Imoen under the old mechanics. I would trade 1-2 ring slots for 1-3 mage levels, but I certainly wouldn't trade them for a third of a mage level.
Stepping back from the discussion for a moment: we're all on these forums because we love these games. We have tremendous common cause between us. "It's not about who is right or wrong" isn't some peace-and-love hippie stuff or a dodge to avoid some harsh reality, it's the realization that life is a lot more fun if you spend it in the company of people who share a love of the things we love.
I said earlier in this thread that five of my oldest friends are people I met on a Baldur's Gate message board back in 2000. One of them came to my wedding in 2008, the first time I'd ever met him in person. I'm glad I "came across as friendly" to those guys, because my life is a lot better today for it. Not only are these games really cool, but the people who love these games are pretty cool, too. Let's not lose sight of that.[/spoiler]
Edit: My apologies, I wrote this up before I saw your last post. I am sorry that I have been snarky, rude, and condescending during the course of the thread, and assure you that I did not intend to be. I was enjoying the spirited debate and thought you were as well, but I have a habit of getting carried away with myself. I'm happy to respect your wishes to leave things here.
More of this condescending nonsense. Leave me alone! Is it possible to block users?
EDIT: Thanks for your inbox message. I am also happy to leave things here concerning this. I was happy when the conversation was fact-based, but I don't appreciate being lectured or talked down to, hence my negative reaction to it. I am glad we have sorted it out, and you once again have my thanks for teaching me a lot about the game in this thread before it got to this point.
I've no desire to stand between two guys intent upon slugging it out, so I'm glad that @SomeSort and @Wandering_Ranger have now agreed to differ and shut up. (In order to keep the peace, I recommend that neither of you should reply to this post, guys!)
As a matter of wrapping up the strictly-factual content, I'll just add one further point. Inside his spoiler tags, @SomeSort correctly understands my previous post (about the changed situation in v2.0+), but goes slightly wrong when
... it's now *impossible for Imoen to be more than 250k XP behind you* unless you have over 1.5m XP, (which you generally won't even in a completionist run).
Actually, if you've been through SoD, and then play most of the content accessible from Chapter 2 before going to Spellhold, then you could well be over 2MXP by the time you find Imoen, in which case we're back to the old situation that she'll be lagging by around 750KXP.
Thus even with the new level-at-recruitment algorithm, it's still quite important not to delay Spellhold too long, if you want Imoen to be roughly on a par with other characters. It's just that in the newer versions, rough parity is more easily achievable without artificial tactics or an extreme rush - you can play more "naturally", doing a few (but not most!) Chapter 2 quests, but then treat Imoen's rescue as quite urgent and postpone the remainder until your return, in which case you can still collect Imoen at rough parity with the rest of the team.
In my illustrative savegame (attached to my previous post), the party had already completed (i.e. before Spellhold) the Circus Tent, Nalia's questline (de'Arnise Keep plus her father's funeral and Isaea's kidnap), Mae'Var's Guildhall, Korgan's quest, all of Hexxat's SoA questline, most (but not all) parts of Jaheira's Harper Hold questline, and the minor miniquests in the Graveyard District, and then sided with Bodhi and completed her Chapter 3 requirements ... so that's a significant portion of the Athkatla content (although still leaving a lot until later - we hadn't even visited the Bridge District at all, nor tackled the Unseeing Eye, nor tackled the Copper Coronet slavers, nor the Planar Sphere, nor the Astral Prison, nor numerous other quests), but we had done nothing at all outside Athkatla except de'Arnise Hold (and a quick visit to WK to collect the Potion Case and Ammo Belt for quality-of-life).
Completing that amount of Chapter 2/3 before Spellhold very neatly delivered me to Imoen when she was maxed (i.e. immediately levellable to 13) and my other NPCs were all also then at level 13 (except Jaheria at F11/D12), which is about as close a parity as can be achieved, and yet it included all of the things which need to be done before Spellhold (to avoid loss of content or loss of companions) and succeeded in feeling "realistic", i.e. neither an artificial meta-gamed rush nor an uncaring delay. However, if my party had done any more than that before going to Spellhold, then Imoen would have been lagging.
Note that if I had kept Nalia in this run instead of Imoen, then she would also have been around the same level as the other NPCs (and as Imoen) ... which I'd have counted as pretty much equal for the purposes of this party (since I'm giving the Rings of Wizardry to Edwin, not to Imoen/Nalia, so it'd be little handicap that Nalia would often need to wear a Thief-skill ring).
I've no desire to stand between two guys intent upon slugging it out, so I'm glad that @SomeSort and @Wandering_Ranger have now agreed to differ and shut up. (In order to keep the peace, I recommend that neither of you should reply to this post, guys!)
Nah, tempers ran high but we took it to PMs and we're square now.
As a matter of wrapping up the strictly-factual content, I'll just add one further point. Inside his spoiler tags, @SomeSort correctly understands my previous post (about the changed situation in v2.0+), but goes slightly wrong when
... it's now *impossible for Imoen to be more than 250k XP behind you* unless you have over 1.5m XP, (which you generally won't even in a completionist run).
Actually, if you've been through SoD, and then play most of the content accessible from Chapter 2 before going to Spellhold, then you could well be over 2MXP by the time you find Imoen, in which case we're back to the old situation that she'll be lagging by around 750KXP.
Thus even with the new level-at-recruitment algorithm, it's still quite important not to delay Spellhold too long, if you want Imoen to be roughly on a par with other characters. It's just that in the newer versions, rough parity is more easily achievable without artificial tactics or an extreme rush - you can play more "naturally", doing a few (but not most!) Chapter 2 quests, but then treat Imoen's rescue as quite urgent and postpone the remainder until your return, in which case you can still collect Imoen at rough parity with the rest of the team.
Yeah, I'm still not used to accounting for Siege of Dragonspear, (or also the new EE companion content, for that matter). My rule of thumb has always been that a fresh character (89k starting XP) who does pretty much all of Chapter 2 but isn't a crazy completionist about it (e.g. isn't recruiting companions just for their quests), will typically be hitting Spellhold somewhere around 1.5m XP.
But yeah, add 400k for a SoD import and perhaps account for having one EE companion and doing their quest as well and I wouldn't be surprised if the new equilibrium was about 2m at the end of Chapter 2. (And, as always, if you're willing to open up Watcher's Keep it'll go much higher still.)
... isn't a crazy completionist about it (e.g. isn't recruiting companions just for their quests) ...
Blimey, that's not remotely "crazy completionist", that's just playing the whole game - merely a starting point for real completionism.
Every pixel of FoW must be dispelled! Every mundane arrow must be looted! Every peasant must be pickpocketed and then spoken to until you've heard every response! Every non-infinite respawn must be respawned until there are no more enemies! And so on, and so on.
Comments
(I've actually known those five about three months longer than my best friend and a year and a half longer than my own wife.) I've only met one of those five in person. The first time I met him was when he came to my wedding. (He was invited, he didn't crash.)
Baldur's Gate is pretty cool. #Friends
Lots gets lost in text. To fill in the blanks: Unless you are doing some specific run (like soling a rogue, or only getting these two NPC's, or some other niche/abnormal scenario), then okay, not every situation Nalia will be better in. But in such situations we are talking about exceptions, not rules. In fact, to find a situation where Imoen is better than Nalia you would actually have to dig and find niche situations, as you just did.
And while the math is the math and not really subject to debate, the math itself is not a terminal value, it is used to fuel a value judgment, and that is absolutely not "irrefutable". I claim that the "typical run" will leave Imoen 750k XP behind. That's very much open to debate, because "typical" is not a mathematical claim, but a sociological one, and it's not like I've run any studies on it.
There is nothing wrong with generalising. All ideas are generalisations, and then you can get into the finer details with evidence. You have already provided the evidence for the majority of typical situations. You would need very specific scenarios where Imoen would turn out to be the mathematically better option than Nalia.
"Also, as quite another aside, let's not confuse "more powerful" with "better". They're very different things."
Let's not "lawyer," either. Everyone knows what I meant by "better" (more powerful) when that is the context what the conversation was about. We were discussing which NPC is more powerful (we had already left the RP stuff behind, since that is very subjective and there is no "better" in that realm).
"It shows that she'll be 1-3 levels higher, (typically 2-3), and then I add the value judgment that 1-3 levels is more valuable than 2 ring slots. But that value judgment is very much open to debate. Others can and will feel differently, and that doesn't make them "wrong", it means they place different subjective weights on different subjective factors."
This is true. You have actually proven why you think the way you do, and it is more than convincing enough, since you actually backed it up with evidence and numbers - something no one else has bothered to do.
" "Or, in other words, everyone is free to disagree."
People are free to disagree that 1+1=2 as well, but it doesn't make them correct by doing so. As a quick side note, it's a funny trend I have noticed in the world today, where it is now "offensive" to tell someone they are outright wrong. If someone says 2+2=5, the socially acceptable position is "well, yes... I can see it from your point of view." Instead of "no, you are wrong. Go back and try again." I note that your "well, everyone has their own perspective" post got more "likes" than your "here are the actual facts." It's very telling about the way people think. It is because it makes people feel good, but we lose out on objective truth in the process.
But that's my own grievance as a philosophical absolutist. Some things in life, there really are right and wrong or better/worse options, and you have actually outlined them in this thread for the majority of plausible scenarios (not looking at niche exceptions).
Nalia is better (more powerful) than Imoen. You have mathematically proven this already, and it actually is a fact at this point (again, outside of niche or situational circumstances geared towards specific playthroughs or whatever - just purely looking at the numbers). Yes, no one likes to hear these things if they like Imoen - but that doesn't make them less true. Oh well. That's life.
Atop the dialogues that Wandering Ranger has so diligently cited, I vaguely recall an admission at the end of the saga when you are forced to make a choice about your heritage, whereby Nalia acknowledges the possibility that seizing Godhood as you are being asked to would be too much for her, and she doesn't think she would wield it responsibly (I would need somebody to check my facts on this one, I admit).
Not that BG loyally stood by attributes in all of their writing endeavours, but it is worth adding also that Nalia has 9 wisdom - nevermind the fact that this is lower than the wisdom of her Arcane counterparts, it is lower than every other NPCs wisdom save for Minsc, Korgan and Wilson! As such, falling down that rabbit hole or deviating from her intended course in pursuit of the power which would allow her to achieve her benevolent ambitions does not feel like an outrageous epilogue for her. Certainly, a lot of the possibilities that Nalia would be considering should she venture down that path would be "best left to aged sages", but she can go toe-to-toe with most of them and I'd wager she isn't older than 21, so I daresay she mightn't feel the need to leave those musings to aged sages given the opportunity to prove her own mettle. Youthful ambition is a perilous thing.
For the record, I did bother to re-read all her ToB dialogue and banter before making my posts in this thread. I stand by my opinion on the matter.
It used to be the case (in pre-EE and earlier versions of EE) that the level of a new recruit was calculated by averaging the levels of the whole party (with no rounding), and then giving you the highest-level version of the new recruit in the game files whose level was strictly lower than that calculated average (er ... except that I seem to recall that Anomen was an exception in the pre-EE game, joining at a higher level than this algorithm would yield ... although that may have been simply a bug).
It is now the case that the level-averaging algorithm has been replaced by a calculation which simply takes the XP total of the protagonist alone (adding both XP scores in the case of multi-classed and dual-classed protagonists) rounded down to the nearest quarter-million and limited to a maximum of 1.25M ... so it's now purely XP-based, not affected by different classes levelling at different rates, and not affected by multi-classing etc. For the new EE NPCs, it then gives you the highest level-version of the recruit in the game files which has less than that rounded-down XP calculation ... but for original-game NPCs, it instead gives you the lowest-level version of the NPC available in the game files (and ignores higher-level versions, which are now redundant, even if below the rounded-down XP of your protagonist). Then the game adds extra XP to the new recruit to equal the rounded-down XP of your protagonist, but leaves it to you to level them up manually (if the addition qualifies them to level up), so that you can allocate any additional proficiency and skill points however you wish.
I suspect that the sometimes-perverse results caused by the old algorithm (when dual-classed companions were present) were a substantial part of the reason why the devs changed the algorithm in more recent versions. The new system produces much more sensible results, IMO. (Well done, Beamdog!)
As an illustration of the new mechanism in action, I attach a savegame from earlier in my current run, right at the very point when Imoen is recruited in Spellhold (this is an Evil run in which I sided with Bodhi, so Yoshimo was unavailable and I took Hexxat to Spellhold instead - it's Hexxat who is now about to be swapped out to make room for Imoen). Under the old level-averaging algorithm, Imoen at this point would have just narrowly missed out on the higher-level version (average level = ((4 x 13) + (11 + 13) / 2 + (11 + 12) / 2) / 6 = 12.583), and so would have joined as level 11 with 400KXP. With the new algorithm (I'm running v2.3.67.3), Imoen joins as level 11 but with 1.25MXP (i.e. max, because the dual-classed protagonist has more than 1.25M when you sum his classes), so you can instantly level her up to level 13 (and in doing so, allocate her level 12 proficiency point wherever you wish).
This changed algorithm thus changes some of the arguments above, at least if you're playing EE. (Of course the arguments above still apply if you're still playing pre-EE or an old version of EE.) Broadly speaking, it makes Imoen less gimped by level-lag, so she's now more competitive with Nalia even if you don't rush to Spellhold at the very earliest possible opportunity ... although she'll still be severely lagging if you delay Spellhold until after you've completed a large portion of what's available in Chapter 2.
I really didn't pay attention but I could play with it some. I do like if that's the way it's going to be.
Somesort said: "The bare minimum amount of XP you have to receive before recruiting Imoen is as follows:
* 89,000 for starting the game with a non-imported character.
* Sneak through Irenicus dungeon. Pickpocket the Sewer Golem key. Just eat the traps rather than disarming. Leave Jahiera and Minsc to rot. You get 20,000 split three ways for destroying the Mephit portals, plus 34,500 for everyone for escaping the dungeon. That'll put you at around 130,000 XP.
* Sell whatever you pocketed from the dungeon for a couple potions of master thievery. Feed them to Yoshimo and then go on a stealing/selling rampage until you have unlimited money. Buy whatever gear you want and pay Gaelen Bayle for 45,000 XP.
* Do Linvail's three quests. He'll give you 107k unavoidable quest XP, plus you'll be forced to get some combat XP during the process.
* Run away from the Vampires in Brynnlaw, Kill Perth (20,000 XP), and go straight into the asylum.
So you're already at 282k as a bare minimum from quest XP alone by the time you rescue Imoen, plus whatever you got from combat in the process. That's 354k if you imported from BG1. But, like, this is insane levels of rushing, levels that make no sense whatsoever. Why would you not kill anything in Chateau Irenicus, before Imoen has even been captured?
More realistically, even if you abuse pickpocket to get the 15,000 gold and don't do a single quest, you're already looking at about 375k XP. And if you do this, you'll get an Imoen who also has about 375k XP. So really, the best case scenario is if you use one of the bigger exploits in the game and rush to the maximum possible degree you can get an Imoen who has the same amount of XP that you have."
Talk about cherry-picking for an argument. SomeSort showed in that above comment what would happen in the best possible scenario (one which leaves you horrifically undergeared and underleveled, and is actually impractical - no one would do it except to rush) to get Imoen early. You chose to only address his own situational circumstance for your argument, not the objective facts he presented.
I didn't cherry pick a thing. This math doesn't refute what I've said. In fact. The lower level version of Imoen as has been pointed out starts with about 400k xp and insane levels of rushing puts you well under her minimum xp. Her higher level version actually has more. So Kill the vampires that for some reason your avoiding in this. Your still under.
Underleveled and undergeared is also a matter of perspective.
but you know what? Believe what you want. Your argueing hard enough for it even while telling me your not.
Insane amount of rushing is a problem, as has already been pointed out.
"Underleveled and undergeared is also a matter of perspective. "
But Nalia being better than Imoen isn't. It's a matter of math.
"Believe what you want. Your argueing hard enough for it even while telling me your not."
Now, here we find some common ground. His approach has annoyed me as well. Not only did he bring up the whole Nalia is better than Imoen thing (it's not what my OP is about), he then goes all the way and definitively (mathematically) proves his point brilliantly, before backpedalling to basically say "perspective, man" (I presume it's so he comes across as friendly). People really need to be okay with being wrong, as you are wrong now. It's totally fine. That's how you learn, if you are open to it.
If you don't accept the mathematics presented before you (or come up with mathematical counter-points, as Gallowglass did - kudos, Gallow), there's nothing that can ever convince you. 2+2 isn't 5 and it never will be. Nothing to do with perspectives.
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As for Gallowglass' post, you have merely moved the goalposts. While the new mechanism is certainly better than the old (because it only focuses on the protagonist), it still doesn't do much for Imoen's case. There are still the two scenarios:
1) Rush Imoen to get her lower level version (problems with this have been comprehensively covered so I won't repeat them)
2) Wait until protagonist has enough XP to get the higher level version. Generally speaking, the protagonist will be close to the level of experience of the rest of your party anyway, so this isn't as revolutionary as you make it out to be. If you are playing "normally" (ie, full or close to full party), this scenario means that you will cover a huge amount of the side-quests in the game before you ever get to Imoen just so you can get her at the high level.
So it's either you rush and face huge problems, or you don't rush but then miss out on Imoen's presence for a huge chunk of the game. Either way, it isn't great and getting her depends on you planning things out carefully. If Nalia is fiddly with rings, then Imoen is fiddly with something far worse - experience points. You have to plan it out just right if you want her to be close to your level of experience.
Further, 1.25 million XP is a decent amount (it's around level 14 or so for most classes), and it takes a while to get to if you have a party. Even a few members will slow this down, so a lot of questing is needed to get you there. If you choose a higher level Imoen, you spend most of the time without her - so what use is she at that point anyway? She'd only be around for end-game content, and whoever was "covering" for her in that time has obviously proven more than capable in the role. In other words, Imoen is only viable for RP-ers or people who like her.
Here is another way to think about it: Who are the least played NPC's in BG1? It's those who are late into the game - Quayle, Tiax, Skie, Eldoth, Faldorn, etc. Why? Because you already have your party set by that point. Imoen is literally these NPC's - the ONLY difference is that she is relevant to the actual story and they aren't, so it feels like you should have her. If she was just some random NPC you could pick up at Spellhold, she'd never see playtime because no one would bother going through all these hoops for a "Tiax" or whatever (unless for RP reasons or because you liked the NPC - that's subjective). I am purely talking about mathematically optimal choices here, since that is what topic we are on.
Since Nalia can do EVERYTHING Imoen can with no issues, Imoen is literally unnecessary. As has been said, thief skills are threshold skills - you either have enough points in them or you don't. And Nalia does.
The very fact that Sarevok bothers pointing out these things to Nalia is telling. It's a good bit of psychology. But even the rest of her conversations and her interactions with others in ToB are telling. In any case, it never happened, I was just pointing out what a fascinating character she was because the seeds for an alignment change were definitely there. She's an in-depth character. It just sucks they never explored this to its full potential. But if such a thing happened, it wouldn't be very shocking because Nalia exhibits such traits already. If Aerie or Mazzy turned, now THAT would be a shock and totally against all that was shown of them.
Think of Dany from Game of Thrones (CG alignment, definitely). She isn't opposed to crucifying the masters for the people she cares for, nor killing others in general. Nalia in SoA I could see would be against such extreme acts. ToB Nalia? I'm not so sure. She grows arrogant, domineering, and "less friendly" (as Aerie so euphemistically puts it), and says outright that she is powerful now, which has essentially distanced her from other people. How far she is willing to take that power and what she wants to do with it is what is in question here.... A question raised by certain tell-tale signs throughout her conversations and attitude towards others. Sarevok sees this and points it out. She never actually refutes it, either, she just swats it aside.
Your argument is dependent upon her admitting her faults. But people can change. Her "faults" as she perceives them today she may consider virtues tomorrow. My arguments rests on these little signs throughout that can paint a different picture, especially if you read her dialogues through that lens. In any case, it didn't happen and we know she turned out to be a good person after the adventures with the Bhaalspawn. It was just a fun thought experiment based on some evidence given to us.
Anyway, this is a totally subjective argument, so if you haven't accepted these things after you went through the dialogues, then you never will. There's nothing else to convince you with (people either see it or they don't, and arguments can go either way), so I agree to agree to disagree.
But as I say, at the end of the day, that is just a bit of speculative fun for the player. We know how the story ends, after all.
Sarevok, however, does not know what such resolve means so he thinks he's on to Nalia (probably thinking she's in denial or something) when he actually just doesn't know what he's seeing in her - he only realizes the value of faith in the very end (after the game ends), if his alignment changes. Hell if his alignment changes he even considers that Nalia might be right in that particular discussion, and then he just repeats his warning.
Ultimately, I think even if someone does introduce a "turn the good NPCs to evil mod" Nalia should be one of the hardest to turn, alongside Minsc and Mazzy. She just doesn't have anyone larger than a MGSH left to be used against her (unlike Keldorn), and her resolve combined with her rebellious streak works in her favor. In her dialogues, she even knows when to back away and just be happy for someone instead of forcing the issue.
And I already pointed how each character has a flaw that could easily be a seed for evil. Aerie, unlike Nalia, hasn't considered how to deal with the fact that she just became one of the most powerful spellcasters in the world at something like 1/100 the time it took for someone like Elminster to get there. She also doesn't seem to have learned to accept that there will always be evil in the world in her conversations with everyone.
Like I said, her newfound power, outrage and naivete make for a dangerous combination.
On a mod, that's a tragedy waiting to happen.
As for stats, I just don't know. NPC stats tend to be selectively flexible as far as the story/plot are concerned.
I have already pointed out that he wasn't talking about *anyone* with power, he was talking *specifically* about Nalia. All NPC's by that point are extremely powerful, yet Nalia is the one Sarevok picks out to talk to. Why? Because she exhibits these "dangerous" traits.
As for Nalia's responses, they are shaky and unsure. "I... I'm a good person!" - "It... it isn't like that!" After that, she just swats him aside. She never actually refutes what he has to say. If we are talking about psychology, this is the subconscious workings of the mind.
"her resolve combined with her rebellious streak works in her favor."
Her rebellious streak is exactly what could get her into trouble. It's chaotic, and due to her passion, she may be led astray (think Star Wars).
Nalia is a passionate young woman with great ideal. Her SoA self is extremely idealistic, while her ToB form is a lot more pragmatic and assertive. My entire argument was that if she continued down that path, it could have led to an alignment change because the seeds were there. That's it. You even agreed that you could see what I was talking about, but disagreed that an alignment change was possible. Which is fine, the story ends well for her and she stays good. My hypothesis was merely a thought experiment, and an interesting one because of Nalia's complexity as a character (which I pointed out in previous posts already).
Anyway, as I said, this is a discussion going nowhere. It's subjective. You either "get it" or you don't. If you do, it makes for an interesting viewpoint, and if you don't then that's fine too. You already agreed to disagree - and I agreed. Let's just leave it at that, because this could literally go on forever.
[spoiler]This is not a case of something getting lost in the text. I was responding to a post where you said "There is no one scenario which mathematically makes Imoen the viable choice. If you have such a scenario, do the numbers yourself and show us." There's not a lot of ambiguity in that statement.
I responded with "let's not oversell the data", and then I followed your request and did the numbers to show you one scenario which mathematically made Imoen the viable choice, (Solo rogue reaching Spellhold with 700k XP). You now concede that there are situations, (more than one, even!), where Imoen will outperform Nalia. It seems you agree that you were originally overselling the data when you said there was "no one scenario".
Given how passionately you seem to believe that people should admit when they are wrong, this would prove an opportune time. My argument is based on value-claims which I support with fact-claims. My argument is convincing enough to you because you accept my fact-claims and agree with my value-claims. But value-claims are not fact-claims, and they are not subject to proof or disproof.
Someone with a different set of value-claims can find my argument unconvincing without disagreeing with my fact-claims in the slightest, and this does not make them "wrong". Values are opinion and therefore not something one is wrong about.
Let me illustrate this with a parable. (Fittingly for this discussion, a parable is a story that's determined not to let fact get in the way of truth.)
A woman is walking down the road when she sees two brothers arguing. "Dear sirs", she says, "I could use your help. I wanted to know what the most powerful character is in all of Baldur's Gate 2."
The first brother says "Dear lady, it is fortunate you asked, because I just so happen to know. The most powerful character in Baldur's Gate 2 is a Kensai dual-classed at level 9 to Mage."
The second brother says "Dear lady, you must forgive my brother's ignorance. He is right about the class but wrong about the specifics. Truly, you should dual-class your Kensai over to Mage at level 21."
The lady thanks them both for their help and continues down the road.
Which brother is right? Neither of them-- everyone knows that the most powerful character in Baldur's Gate is a Sorcerer. But in terms of the two characters they mentioned, the first brother is right that the Kensai(9)>M is more powerful than the Kensai(21)>M... and the second is right that the opposite is true, as well. It just depends on values!
If, upon completion of the game, the two characters engaged in a duel to the death... well, the K(21) would almost certainly be favored as he is obviously the more powerful character. But if we measured how difficult each character found the game to be, the K(9) would definitely get the edge as he spent most of the game as the more powerful character.
The answer the brothers gave said nothing important about the classes they recommended, but quite a good deal about their own values. You open your post by accusing me of reading you uncharitably, and then you close with this? A more uncharitable reading of what I actually said I could not possibly imagine.
Notice the sentence you quoted. Particularly, the beginning. "Or, in other words". That phrase indicates I am restating something else I had just said in another way to make it easier to understand. What else had I just said? You conveniently left that bit of context out.
I'll provide it here, with emphasis added: "this isn't an argument that one side has "won", or even an argument that one "wins" in the first place. This is a friendly discussion between people with different subjective value weights, none of which is right or wrong. The data is presented to inform value judgments, but it does not demand certain value judgments. Or, in other words, everyone is free to disagree."
I wasn't making some sweeping claim about fact in general or giving permission for people to create their own reality. I was saying that *this particular discussion* was very much rooted in opinion-claims and not fact-claims, so people were free in *this particular instance* to reach a different conclusion.
Let's go back to my parable again. I'll ask you a very simple question: who is more powerful, mathematically speaking, at the level cap in ToB: Nalia or Imoen? (Hint: the answer, speaking entirely mathematically and limiting myself exclusively to the realm of fact, is Imoen.)
I consider Nalia more powerful than Imoen because I prefer to judge power as an average throughout the campaign rather than merely a snapshot at the end of it. But notice that p-word there... I *prefer*. This is a value-statement, not a fact-statement. There is nothing in the phrase "most powerful" that makes that tautologically the best measure to use.
Someone with a different value-statement-- someone who "prefers" to rate power as maximum achievable potential, say-- could reach a different conclusion without the slightest disagreement over the facts involved. "Sure, Nalia is better through the end of Shadows of Amn, but once you reach midway through Throne of Bhaal Imoen passes her and never looks back." That is an inarguably true statement!
Because two people who agree on the facts can disagree on the conclusions, everyone is free to disagree on this. It's totally reasonable to do so. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.
You seem to suggest that I'm too concerned with being polite or liked to tell people that they are wrong, and that I should be willing to tell people things as they are and not as they wish they could be. I disagree with the diagnosis, but I'm all-too-happy to follow the prescription.
You say that I have mathematically proven that Nalia is more powerful than Imoen. You are wrong.[/spoiler]
You have mathematically proven it, even if you don't agree (though I don't believe that - no one pushes a point so hard to just say "oh, I don't actually believe it though"), and as I said in a previous post, "Not only did he (ie, you) bring up the whole Nalia is better than Imoen thing (it's not what my OP is about), he then goes all the way and definitively (mathematically) proves his point brilliantly, before backpedalling to basically say "perspective, man"
By introducing your so-called "value judgements," you are attempting to muddy the waters - but unless someone can plausibly SHOW that your value-judgement is wrong, then you are correct. It's really that simple.
The reason this thread was going so well is because we managed to stick to numbers. These are facts. You are now attempting to introduce relativity into it, which is a digression. What is particularly frustrating about it is that no one asked you to come to my thread - you did it of your own free will. I never even said Nalia was better than Imoen - that wasn't the point of this thread. Yet you brought that up too, including rankings and other statistics no one asked for. You then pushed the point to its maximum, which convinced me, and I agreed with you and said it is irrefutable (due to the objective math behind it).
If you are all about relativism, then respect my "relative perspective" and leave it at that. But no, you have to now backpedal just to pay lip service to how "accepting" you are of other people's opinions. Relax. No one is accusing you of anything.
I can't thank you enough for your brilliant analysis of the situation, but if this was my own personal thread, you would at this point be banned from it for being snarky, rude, condescending, and so forth. I do not appreciate being lectured, especially not by a relativist, who are so afraid of making absolute judgements that they run a mile from them like vampires from garlic - even when the truth is objective. In my other discussion on this thread concerning Nalia's mentality, I can agree to disagree with Nuin because we are talking about something that really is rooted in opinion. So there's a time for relativity and a time for absolutism. OUR discussion falls into the latter camp. We both agree on the virtues of Nalia, and yet we now we are at odds because (for whatever reason) you just can't stand me making absolutist pronouncements. To be frank: get over it. Why not just leave me to make them? After all "everyone is entitled to their opinion," so leave me to mine without being rude and pretentious.
There's no need for this to get worse, and get worse it will if we continue down this path, so let's just part ways amicably before that happens.
I am quite sure we can both be more productive with our time. Thanks for your contributions (up until this point, anyway). Farewell.
1. There are specific mechanics that determine how much XP Imoen is awarded on recruitment.
2. Based on those mechanics and what I assume to be typical play, Imoen will typically be 1-3 levels behind Nalia
3. Imoen's greatest innate advantage over Nalia can be offset by sacrificing one of Nalia's ring slots and memorizing a knock spell or two. (The other ring slot is already permanently sacrificed to her signet ring.)
4. In terms of power, 1-3 levels is better than 1-2 ring slots and a level 2 spell slot or two.
1 was a fact-claim which was true through 1.3, but which apparently is false as of 2.0. So insofar as my "mathematical proof" relied on it, my "mathematical proof" was wrong. But let's just assume we're talking about a 1.3 environment, (I play on iPad, so that's what I have).
2 isn't strictly a fact-claim, since I've not really defined "typical", and it'd be hard to prove one way or another. I really have no definitive idea of what level most players are when they go to spellhold and what their party composition usually is. Despite the fact that this statement is not "mathematically proven", I still feel it's on pretty solid epistemic footing.
3 I don't think is really in dispute by either side.
4 is... oh hey, here's where we get to the part that's a value-claim instead of a fact-claim. Because 4 is true of all values of N less than 22 and false for all values of N greater than or equal to 22. So what I'm really saying is "the difference in power advantage prior to level 22 and power defecit after level 22 is great enough for me to call Nalia more powerful overall".
But that's not a fact-claim! That's an opinion-claim! There's no mathematical proof for it because no such mathematical proof could possibly exist, any more than I could prove that an early-dual was more powerful than a late-dual.
And this is why I was pumping the brakes. Because you were saying I was proving things that I was never proving. I was making arguments, I was advancing a case. Built as it us on a value-statement, the underlying argument can only be accomplished through persuasion, not proof.
Both Nalia and Imoen exist as points along the Pareto frontier of the power curve. Neither represents a straight Pareto improvement over the other. I can argue that I would prefer one point on the frontier over the other, but the fundamental nature of Pareto optimality is such that any preferences are strictly based on individual values and not mathematical comparison. You have badly misunderstood Gallowglass's post.
Gallowglass says that at any point you recruit an NPC, that NPC starts as the lowest-level version in the files, but with an experience point value equal to the protagonist's current total rounded down to the nearest quarter-million.
The lowest-level version of Imoen in the files has 400k XP. So here's how many XP Imoen will have based on how many XP you have when you recruit her.
0-499,999 XP: 400k XP for Imoen
500,000-749,999 XP: 500k XP for Imoen
750,000-999,999 XP: 750k XP for Imoen
1,000,000-1,249,999 XP: 1m XP for Imoen
1,250,000+ XP: 1.25m XP for Imoen
In other words, it's possible for Imoen to have more XP than you still, but it's now *impossible for Imoen to be more than 250k XP behind you* unless you have over 1.5m XP, (which you generally won't even in a completionist run).
Assuming you're not regularly getting to Imoen with less than 500k XP or more than 1.5m XP, then even if you make no effort to metagame her recruitment, on average Imoen will be just 125k XP behind the protagonist.
If that's really how the mechanics work now, that makes Imoen "mathematically superior" to Nalia by the same logic that I preferred Nalia to Imoen under the old mechanics. I would trade 1-2 ring slots for 1-3 mage levels, but I certainly wouldn't trade them for a third of a mage level.
Stepping back from the discussion for a moment: we're all on these forums because we love these games. We have tremendous common cause between us. "It's not about who is right or wrong" isn't some peace-and-love hippie stuff or a dodge to avoid some harsh reality, it's the realization that life is a lot more fun if you spend it in the company of people who share a love of the things we love.
I said earlier in this thread that five of my oldest friends are people I met on a Baldur's Gate message board back in 2000. One of them came to my wedding in 2008, the first time I'd ever met him in person. I'm glad I "came across as friendly" to those guys, because my life is a lot better today for it. Not only are these games really cool, but the people who love these games are pretty cool, too. Let's not lose sight of that.[/spoiler]
Edit: My apologies, I wrote this up before I saw your last post. I am sorry that I have been snarky, rude, and condescending during the course of the thread, and assure you that I did not intend to be. I was enjoying the spirited debate and thought you were as well, but I have a habit of getting carried away with myself. I'm happy to respect your wishes to leave things here.
More of this condescending nonsense. Leave me alone! Is it possible to block users?EDIT: Thanks for your inbox message. I am also happy to leave things here concerning this. I was happy when the conversation was fact-based, but I don't appreciate being lectured or talked down to, hence my negative reaction to it. I am glad we have sorted it out, and you once again have my thanks for teaching me a lot about the game in this thread before it got to this point.
As a matter of wrapping up the strictly-factual content, I'll just add one further point. Inside his spoiler tags, @SomeSort correctly understands my previous post (about the changed situation in v2.0+), but goes slightly wrong when Actually, if you've been through SoD, and then play most of the content accessible from Chapter 2 before going to Spellhold, then you could well be over 2MXP by the time you find Imoen, in which case we're back to the old situation that she'll be lagging by around 750KXP.
Thus even with the new level-at-recruitment algorithm, it's still quite important not to delay Spellhold too long, if you want Imoen to be roughly on a par with other characters. It's just that in the newer versions, rough parity is more easily achievable without artificial tactics or an extreme rush - you can play more "naturally", doing a few (but not most!) Chapter 2 quests, but then treat Imoen's rescue as quite urgent and postpone the remainder until your return, in which case you can still collect Imoen at rough parity with the rest of the team.
In my illustrative savegame (attached to my previous post), the party had already completed (i.e. before Spellhold) the Circus Tent, Nalia's questline (de'Arnise Keep plus her father's funeral and Isaea's kidnap), Mae'Var's Guildhall, Korgan's quest, all of Hexxat's SoA questline, most (but not all) parts of Jaheira's Harper Hold questline, and the minor miniquests in the Graveyard District, and then sided with Bodhi and completed her Chapter 3 requirements ... so that's a significant portion of the Athkatla content (although still leaving a lot until later - we hadn't even visited the Bridge District at all, nor tackled the Unseeing Eye, nor tackled the Copper Coronet slavers, nor the Planar Sphere, nor the Astral Prison, nor numerous other quests), but we had done nothing at all outside Athkatla except de'Arnise Hold (and a quick visit to WK to collect the Potion Case and Ammo Belt for quality-of-life).
Completing that amount of Chapter 2/3 before Spellhold very neatly delivered me to Imoen when she was maxed (i.e. immediately levellable to 13) and my other NPCs were all also then at level 13 (except Jaheria at F11/D12), which is about as close a parity as can be achieved, and yet it included all of the things which need to be done before Spellhold (to avoid loss of content or loss of companions) and succeeded in feeling "realistic", i.e. neither an artificial meta-gamed rush nor an uncaring delay. However, if my party had done any more than that before going to Spellhold, then Imoen would have been lagging.
Note that if I had kept Nalia in this run instead of Imoen, then she would also have been around the same level as the other NPCs (and as Imoen) ... which I'd have counted as pretty much equal for the purposes of this party (since I'm giving the Rings of Wizardry to Edwin, not to Imoen/Nalia, so it'd be little handicap that Nalia would often need to wear a Thief-skill ring).
But yeah, add 400k for a SoD import and perhaps account for having one EE companion and doing their quest as well and I wouldn't be surprised if the new equilibrium was about 2m at the end of Chapter 2. (And, as always, if you're willing to open up Watcher's Keep it'll go much higher still.)
Every pixel of FoW must be dispelled! Every mundane arrow must be looted! Every peasant must be pickpocketed and then spoken to until you've heard every response! Every non-infinite respawn must be respawned until there are no more enemies! And so on, and so on.