Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Categories

Attention, Beamdog forum-goers!📢Starting on November 8, our forums will be unavailable for a few weeks while we migrate to a self-hosted site.

Check out the full announcement for more information on forum features, data transfer, and 3rd party OAuth:

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/83099/beamdog-forum-migration

Evil Party Advice Needed!

So I started a game with a chaotic neutral charname, but due to the NPC's personalities I'm leaning towards an evil party (mainly because I adore Edwin). My PC is a Wild Mage and I'm trying to forward-plan a party (I've just got to Nashkel) - looking for some advice from you guys as I'm still a bit of a novice at BG -

Note: I've -still- not played through BG fully yet, only until the end of the mines.

At the moment, my party consists of:

Viconia, Kagain, Edwin, Xzar and Montaron.

I'm coming up shortly to the part where I meet and can recruit Dorn. I was going to swap him out for Xzar, but the problem is, I've got a bit of a soft spot for Monty, and he's actually quite good with the sling +1, and they need to be together, right?

So I either hire Dorn and get rid of Xzar and Monty, but I ideally need a Thief. Any ideas?

Or should I just get rid of Kagain for Dorn?

OrlonKronsteen

Comments

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    edited June 2017
    You can split the pairs.

    Either by killing one of them (and I mean not killing them, of course not. It's just that that NPC was so keen to protect the rest of the party, they rushed into combat forgetting to put on their armour or picking up their weapon) and then removing the dead body from party.

    For instance, to keep Edwin happy, I'm always too slow to stop a distraught Dynaheir rushing to attack the gnolls after rescuing her.
    Happens everytime, I really need to keep a better eye on her.

    Or you can dismiss a party member after leaving that party member shut in a house. They will stay there forever because they can't get to you to do the whole leaving talk. So then it won't trigger the other half of the pair leaving, when you dismiss them. Just make sure to leave them somewhere you won't go back to.

    And of course you adore Edwin, everybody who is anybody does. ;)

    OrlonKronsteenkingblahAerakarShikao
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 871

    You can split the pairs. Either by killing one of them (and I mean not killing them, of course not. It's just that that NPC was so keen to protect the rest of the party, they rushed into combat forgetting to put on their armour or picking up their weapon) and then removing the dead body from party.

    I imagine in an evil run you can get away with blatantly killing an NPC - for the right reason(s). With Xzar, you could justify it due to his insanity and the risk that might pose to the party. Or the fact that he just grates on your nerves.
    Monty himself isn't even sad if Xzar dies.


  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    kingblah said:

    So I started a game with a chaotic neutral charname, but due to the NPC's personalities I'm leaning towards an evil party (mainly because I adore Edwin). My PC is a Wild Mage and I'm trying to forward-plan a party (I've just got to Nashkel) - looking for some advice from you guys as I'm still a bit of a novice at BG -

    Note: I've -still- not played through BG fully yet, only until the end of the mines.

    At the moment, my party consists of:

    Viconia, Kagain, Edwin, Xzar and Montaron.

    I'm coming up shortly to the part where I meet and can recruit Dorn. I was going to swap him out for Xzar, but the problem is, I've got a bit of a soft spot for Monty, and he's actually quite good with the sling +1, and they need to be together, right?

    So I either hire Dorn and get rid of Xzar and Monty, but I ideally need a Thief. Any ideas?

    Or should I just get rid of Kagain for Dorn?

    I'm also a big fan of Montaron, and as has been mentioned you can keep him while ditching Xzar if you either get Xzar killed or send him to an abandoned house before booting him out.

    With that said, if you *do* want to boot Montaron and get another thief, Shar-Teel is a fighter but she has the ability to dual-class to Thief, and she makes an excellent one. Otherwise, Safana is evil-adjacent enough to work unless you're planning on dropping your reputation all the way to 1.

    kingblah
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147

    You can split the pairs. Either by killing one of them (and I mean not killing them, of course not. It's just that that NPC was so keen to protect the rest of the party, they rushed into combat forgetting to put on their armour or picking up their weapon) and then removing the dead body from party.

    I imagine in an evil run you can get away with blatantly killing an NPC - for the right reason(s). With Xzar, you could justify it due to his insanity and the risk that might pose to the party. Or the fact that he just grates on your nerves.
    Monty himself isn't even sad if Xzar dies.


    As if you would...a person might be evil but can still be nice to their Mum. :D

    Though as Xzar says,

    "I never loved you".

    I always feel, playing an evil party and never playing evil myself, a little bit protective of the NPC's. Kind of,
    "nobody loves us, everybody hates us, think I'll go and eat worms". They don't come across so insufferably self satisfied. Well I suppose they do, but on the whole are spectacularly bad at it. They acknowledge their evilness.

    OrlonKronsteenkingblah
  • kingblahkingblah Member Posts: 12
    edited June 2017
    Thanks all for the advice and insight :D Now I'm torn between Safana, Monty and Shar-Teel for the thief-slot. Who would provide the most entertainment through to end-game? At the moment I stick my thief character with ranged, because I still can't work out Hide in Shadows and Backstabbing for some reason - (it just never works, I get close to the mob and then my thief just comes out of the shadows before i get the chance to attack, although I'd really like to use it, maybe it's just not high enough)


  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Safana shows up at SoD, so I would say it's the best long-term investment.

    Monty is multiclass and lacks Dexterity, despite being a halfling. Worst thief IMHO.

    Never dualed Shar-Teel myself, but with the Thief XP table it looks like a good deal but... why do it if there's Safana ready to go?

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,347
    kingblah said:

    Thanks all for the advice and insight :D Now I'm torn between Safana, Monty and Shar-Teel for the thief-slot. Who would provide the most entertainment through to end-game? At the moment I stick my thief character with ranged, because I still can't work out Hide in Shadows and Backstabbing for some reason - (it just never works, I get close to the mob and then my thief just comes out of the shadows before i get the chance to attack, although I'd really like to use it, maybe it's just not high enough)

    It's a boring answer, but entertainment in BG1 is all about what you can conjure up yourself, so it's very personal. This is because the NPCs banter very little and don't have many personal quests ('cept ofc the new ones). So for me this means that the NPC that is most entertaining is a combo of their standard repertoire of "click sounds" and their abilities. A char with unique abilities or skills like ie Tiax's summon ghast is very entertaining where-as a straight up fighter as Shar-Teel is not. I realyl like Shar because of her combat prowess of course, but I think Tiax is way, way more entertaining (He's also a thief hint, hint.. and evil.. and awesome).

    Out of the three you mention I would go with Monty every day of the week. He's a good enough thief and get fighter THAC0 and specialization making him much better than any pure thief in battle. Shar is great but you still need two thieves in that case since dualing an leveling her up takes time since XP rewards are generally quite low. This can ofc be meta gamed to not take so much time.

    Regarding hide; in BG1 there's a lot of open areas and if you are out during the day and walk in the sun you get massive penalties. My opinion is that if you want to actually be able to rely on stealth you need to put all points in there. I know people play with less and with the +skills from boots and armor you can reach around 100/100 with a farly low skill point investment, but for me I prefer to boost it max to get a reliable stealth even in the sun. This means I use two (or more) thieves, one for stealth and one for locks/traps etc.

    kingblahAerakar
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996
    What @Skatan says about the interactions is true. Baldur's Gate was a game that changed the PC gaming industry, but the character interaction was minimal, at least to our modern eyes. At the time, no game had all that much interaction. It was Baldur's Gate 2 that really opened this up.

    After you've played through BG1 a couple times, you might add the BG1NPC mod. It adds a lot of banters, subplots, etc. I'm not into mods, but this is an excellent package; the banters alone are worth the effort

    kingblahAerakarVbibbi
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @tbone1

    You must give credit where credit is due.

    Although I love the NPC project, what they had to build on was quite extraordinary. With minimal interactions and the use of "click" sounds the characters came to life.
    NPC project wouldn't exist if that base wasn't so strong.

    BG facilitates RPG far better than BG2, even without the NPC project.

    When you say "modern eyes" are you sure you are not just excusing the current trend for lazy, attention seeking, instant gratification with no input or effort from the player?





    kingblahAerakar
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996
    @UnderstandMouseMagic be careful, you might start sounding as old a fogey as I do! :D

    It is true they had a good base to build on, and it is true that BG2 gave a roadmap for them to use. Still, it was well done (we've all seen how bad amateur writing can be; some is nearly as bad the dialog in superhero movies!) and it adds some depth and fun to our old BG1 favorites.

    And by "modern eyes", I'm talking about how things have changed now versus then. I cite music as a great parallel. My kids roll their eyes at some of the jazz and blues I listen to, never mind the rock and roll. But then I tell them that Charlie Parker had the idea of improvising, not using the notes in the melody but the notes in the chords, and they raise their eyebrows. I play Howlin' Wolf and they hear the first echoes of heavy metal four years before Elvis first recorded and they nod. And I tell them how the first time I heard Alice in Chains' "Man in the Box", where Laine Stanley sang along with the guitar in the intro, I called KBCO to find out who the hell that band was. When the heard "Off the Ground" by The Record Company they had the same reaction.

    Gaming has advanced in many ways since BG came out, so sometimes people don't see how great it is because so many games that followed usd concepts and ideas that BG created or improved or perfected.


    SkatankingblahArctodusAerakar
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @tbone1

    I think maybe you misunderstood my comment.
    I love NPC project and sincerely wish the writing in SOD had been as good. They got the characters spot on IMO. Even the ones that go completely OTT.

    It was more about the oft repeated complaint that BG didn't give so much. Fair enough, not so much quantity, but the quality of what was given should be appreciated. To draw such strong and fascinating characters based on so little was amazing. It's that which has fueled the imagination for so long.

    And it's far to late to warn me off of "old fogeyish" behavior. I don't think that it's not without cause at the moment though. It does worry me that so many young people are so passive in their desire to be entertained. I can't help feeling that it's not going anywhere good.

    What happens when all the ideas are used up because nothing can sustain the constant appetite for something new but at the same time everything is just consumed in a matter of minutes passively?
    That's a new phenomena.

    kingblahAerakartbone1
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    edited June 2017
    Raduziel said:

    Safana shows up at SoD, so I would say it's the best long-term investment.

    Monty is multiclass and lacks Dexterity, despite being a halfling. Worst thief IMHO.

    Never dualed Shar-Teel myself, but with the Thief XP table it looks like a good deal but... why do it if there's Safana ready to go?

    Montaron has 17 dex, exactly the same as Shar-Teel and Safana.

    As for why you dual Shar-Teel... she has 18/58 strength to Safana's 13, has more HP, can wear helmets and heavier shields, can place more than one proficiency point in her weapon of choice, and gives you total control over how you allocate your thief points. Unless you really need that 17 charisma or are a sucker for Safana's innate Charm Person ability, Shar-Teel is an upgrade across the board, and a large one at that.

    Plus she's actually evil and therefore won't leave you if you really, really tank your reputation.

  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    Skatan said:

    kingblah said:

    Thanks all for the advice and insight :D Now I'm torn between Safana, Monty and Shar-Teel for the thief-slot. Who would provide the most entertainment through to end-game? At the moment I stick my thief character with ranged, because I still can't work out Hide in Shadows and Backstabbing for some reason - (it just never works, I get close to the mob and then my thief just comes out of the shadows before i get the chance to attack, although I'd really like to use it, maybe it's just not high enough)

    It's a boring answer, but entertainment in BG1 is all about what you can conjure up yourself, so it's very personal. This is because the NPCs banter very little and don't have many personal quests ('cept ofc the new ones). So for me this means that the NPC that is most entertaining is a combo of their standard repertoire of "click sounds" and their abilities. A char with unique abilities or skills like ie Tiax's summon ghast is very entertaining where-as a straight up fighter as Shar-Teel is not. I realyl like Shar because of her combat prowess of course, but I think Tiax is way, way more entertaining (He's also a thief hint, hint.. and evil.. and awesome).

    Out of the three you mention I would go with Monty every day of the week. He's a good enough thief and get fighter THAC0 and specialization making him much better than any pure thief in battle. Shar is great but you still need two thieves in that case since dualing an leveling her up takes time since XP rewards are generally quite low. This can ofc be meta gamed to not take so much time.
    You don't need two thieves if you dual-class Shar-Teel as soon as you get her. That basically makes her a pure-class level 1 thief with baller stats, some bonus HP, extra equipment allowances, and the ability to specialize in weapons.

    (You do need two thieves if you plan on taking Tiax, though, because it's going to be a long time before you can get him unless you're using mods. Though I do heartily endorse using mods to make Tiax accessible early, because Tiax rules all.)

    SkatanAerakar
  • 11302101130210 Member Posts: 381
    edited June 2017
    My biggest advice? Be chaotic evil, not chaotic stupid.

    Try to keep your reputation at 6 (as the lowest)! At the very least it can be at 5. Now, if your reputation gets TOO low, remember the temples are an easy way to raise your reputation. The lower the numerical value of your reputation, the less money you'll need to donate to a temple to gain a point in reputation.

    For instance, if you have a reputation of like 4, it may only take 200 - 500gp to raise a point of your reputation.

    A final piece of advice, if you've not gotten to Nashkel yet, if your reputation is absurdly low the Amnian guards will attack you on sight. I think this happens when your reputation becomes a 2 or lower... So yes, avoid having your reputation get that low.

    Just remember this a game from the 90s, and it's almost impossible - if not EXTREMELY difficult - to go through the whole game without hearing from Kagain, "Ye buncha chumps, what the hell did ye think you was doin?" So, therefore, DON'T be discouraged! Having an evil party is one of the coolest aspects of the series.

    FINALLY, I highly, highly, HIGHLY recommend you ditch either Montaron and Xzar or Edwin. There's now enough evil characters in the game that you won't have a problem keeping a full evil party. My advice, have ONE mage. If I was you, kick out Edwin and get Dorn. Dorn will give you access to a new storyline that was actually the better of the new NPC storylines.

    You'll like Xzar and Montaron if you keep them. Otherwise, Montaron really isn't that good. Besides, in terms of balance you can do much better. Having too many fighters in the party is a little redundant I've always thought when playing an evil party.

    kingblahAerakar
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,197
    @kingblah As I don't know if your using any mods I would say if not, then try it with BGNPC Project., at least on the next go round (or if ya get rerollitis) The characters you are thinking of (and indeed all, cept the newest NPC's) are so much more interesting and surprising with just that one mod,esp. with Monty, Xzar and Shar_Teel.

    kingblahAerakar
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    My Advice for evil parties? Have your main char have very high Charisma. 18+. Some of the good rewards come with a +1 rep boost or with a rep-gate to even have them offered to you. But this can be offset by high charisma. If you don't want to go all the way up on the rep scale. this can let you dance around in about the 8-15 range without any of your party members really getting upset in any way even if you have all evil alignment npc's in your party with the potential for pushing it higher if you really want to but that might not be as thematic.

Sign In or Register to comment.