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Save vs. Throws on Ammunition

RavenslightRavenslight Member Posts: 1,611
Though “poke them with the pointy end” is often my default attack, I do from time to time try to better understand and use to my advantage better tactics. :)

Lately I have been trying to get a better handle on the save vs. mechanic used on some of the ammunitions found in the game.

For instance, if I am understanding it correctly, something with save vs. paralyzation might be better to use against a mage than save vs. spell because they would be less likely to be able to make their save against it. While save vs. spell might be a better choice to use against a melee combatant.

When considering the save vs. limitations placed on some ammunitions, what type of save vs. effect do you find less limiting or most useful, overall?

Save vs. Throws on Ammunition 15 votes

Save vs. Spell
6%
sarevok57 1 vote
Save vs. Death
6%
GenderNihilismGirdle 1 vote
Save vs. Paralyzation
0%
Save vs. Poison
13%
smady3WarChiefZeke 2 votes
Save vs. Breath
33%
FlashburnRaduzielLord_TansheronAerakarZaghoul 5 votes
Save vs. Polymorph
0%
I don’t think much about it.
40%
TingelKamigoroshiThacoBelllroumentbone1SomeSort 6 votes
JuliusBorisovKamigoroshilroumenThacoBellFlashburnAerakartbone1Zaghoul

Comments

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,385
    I don’t think much about it.
    I'm missing a good overview table for what affects which classes (and races) best with respect to saves, so your question is highly relevant to me.

    ArctodusRavenslightAerakar
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Save vs. Breath
    Breath Weapon is usually the worst save of any class.

    RavenslightAerakar
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,811
    Save vs. Spell
    well death/paralysation/posion are all the same save, but in general, the enemy's save vs spell is usually the worst

    in bg1, I don't really dwell on it too much, because basically every enemy has crap saves ( about 95% of the time)

    but if anything the save vs death saving throw is usually the enemy's best save

    now when it comes to big time baddies and or bosses the saves go as follows:

    save vs death: 3
    save vs wands: 5
    save vs polymorph: 4
    save vs breath: 4
    save vs spell: 6

    so that's why I always try and gear my saving throw effects towards the save vs spell end of the spectrum, especially if that save vs spell comes with a nifty penalty ( like -2 or -4 for example)

    although anything that gives a penalty to the save is nice to use though ( like the wand of paralysation for example, absolute menace )

    RavenslightGrond0Aerakar
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    You what?

    Words of one syllable or lower please, I have no idea what you are talking about.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    There's a mistake in the poll: save vs. death, save vs. poison, and save vs. paralyzation are the same thing in 2nd edition, and you're missing save vs. wand.

    Save vs. spell is extremely weak against mages, while save vs. death is relatively good against them, but save vs. breath is basically always the best. Enemies in the IE games basically always have poor saves vs. breath. It's the highest saving throw on average, so a save vs. breath is most likely to work.

    As for your own saves, it's most important to fortify save vs. spell and to a lesser extent save vs. death, as those are the most common save types. Save vs. wand is hardly ever used at all.

    RavenslightFlashburnAerakar
  • RavenslightRavenslight Member Posts: 1,611
    @semiticgod said:

    There's a mistake in the poll: save vs. death, save vs. poison, and save vs. paralyzation are the same thing in 2nd edition, and you're missing save vs. wand.



    Well, there you go. I’m learning something new. :) Though I find it confusing that they use 3 different words for the same type save in the item descriptions if they are really all the same thing.

    Yes, I missed Save vs. wand


    So, it looks like save vs. Breath is the most powerful against the greatest number of enemies?

    Much helpful information here. Thank you everyone! :)

    semiticgoddess
  • RavenslightRavenslight Member Posts: 1,611
    I don’t think vanilla will let me edit the poll to put Death, Poison and Paralyzation under one option and add a new option for wand, will it?

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,811
    Save vs. Spell




    So, it looks like save vs. Breath is the most powerful against the greatest number of enemies?

    not so sure about that, I just checked a pile of enemies ( in bg2 at least ) and it's looking 50/50 on save vs breath/ save vs spell being their worse save

    I found that a lot of weaker enemies will have a worse save vs breath than save vs spell

    but when your enemies start getting stronger their save vs spell is weaker than their save vs breath

    although I do assume that mages will naturally have a better save vs spell than breath though

    RavenslightFlashburn
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,838
    Save vs. Breath
    I've got a question of my own about saving throws, @semiticgod.

    Let's say you have a saving throw of 0 vs. death and get hit with something that requires a save vs. death (no modifiers). What happens if you roll a 1? Is it still automatic failure? Or can you become effectively immune to things that require a save if you get its respective save low enough? I'm thinking its the former, that there's always a 5% chance of failure.

    Ravenslight
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,811
    Save vs. Spell
    Flashburn said:

    I've got a question of my own about saving throws, @semiticgod.

    Let's say you have a saving throw of 0 vs. death and get hit with something that requires a save vs. death (no modifiers). What happens if you roll a 1? Is it still automatic failure? Or can you become effectively immune to things that require a save if you get its respective save low enough? I'm thinking its the former, that there's always a 5% chance of failure.

    in the BG series it uses 2nd edition rules, so if your save vs death is 0 you will never fail a save on a 1 ( granted the effect has no penalty)

    in fact if your save vs death is -3 you can't fail a save even if you roll a natural 1 and have a -4 penalty to it

    for example:

    in the deck of many things, there is one card called donjon ( I believe) and this effect is an imprisonment effect, but it allows a save vs death with a -4 penalty, but if your save vs death is -3 you can't fail the save, your saving throw value needs to match your roll or higher to pass on your save

    so if your save vs death is 10, that means you need to roll a 10 or higher on your d20 to pass the save

    3rd edition on the other hand ( neverwinter nights series, icewind dale 2 ) had the "bright" idea of making it so you fail no matter what on a roll of a 1 ( except there were a feat or 2 you could take so this wouldn't happen) but in my opinion that game mechanic is complete garbage because then you are playing Russian roulette and now its a race to see who rolls a natural 1 first

    semiticgoddessFlashburnRavenslightAerakar
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    Yes, there are no critical failures for saving throws in BG. Get your saves low enough and you'll never fail a save. However, in Icewind Dale 2, which uses the 3rd edition, rolling a 1 always fails, and rolling a 20 always succeeds.

    FlashburnRavenslightAerakar
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,264
    Well NWN2 had an epic feat which prevents 'critical failure' on saving throws which... is something at least, with all the 'super-saver' builds out there.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,200
    edited July 2017
    Save vs. Breath
    The one save I think most about is spell - I basically assume enemies will always make it, and friendlies will always fail it. Then I go from there to be pleasantly surprised.

    I really try hard to avoid using anything that is save=nothing happens. When I do use it, it's either a Hail-Mary, marginally relevant, or fishing for good RNG in the reload game. I try whenever I can to debuff saves first in some way.

    It's only since LoB that I've come to rely on save-based CC effects more, simply going with the odds to hope and grind out an advantage over the average. It'll still mean Hold Person x3 will not work against a single one of 10 enemies under Greater Malison every now and then, but even just taking 1-2 of them out of the fight is usually worth it already when fight durations are very long.

    Outside of LoB, I mostly did not bother. I almost exclusively used things that don't allow saves, or have at least a partial effect on a save.

    But when it comes to enemies then yeah, Save vs. Breath is almost always the worst.

    Ravenslight
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,194
    edited July 2017
    Save vs. Breath
    Seems like depending on which installment one is in, that would also be a determining factor for my choice. In BG for ex. I am thinking Breath gets the least use, but in BG2 it becomes a bit more important.

    EDIT: The type of damage as well would seem to need to consideration as well I reckon, as far as the ammunition aspect. The save vs spell on the elemental ammo uses spell I think on most, seems like for something with an exploding or splashing damage, esp. if non magical, BW would be the choice (unless it was poison maybe) to simulate the evading the element a little.

    Post edited by Zaghoul on
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