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Cleric/Thief vs Cleric->Thief

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  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    I'll speak up for multi over dual. C/T is possibly my favorite classing in the game. But let's look first at Cleric -> Thief. This benefits from the least downtime in the game (apart from carefully leveled fighter -> druid), with cleric leveling quickly, and thief leveling even faster, plus gaining a few 'skip levels' that do not require a doubling of xp, which is why single-class thief hits level 10 by the end of the first game. The cleric kits are nice, but in no way essential. The best feature of cleric kits is that clerics are strong to begin with, and none of the kits have any drawbacks. However, the tricky question is when to dual. If you dual early in BG, then none of the kits will replace what you have lost - a little flavor to replace the choice of a thief kit, that will certainly add less value than the appropriate kit by mid SoA. If we want to gain at least level 5 spells for real hotness, then we are delaying the dual till the second game. The downtime will still be quick with a thief, but we spend the whole first game playing the 'wrong' class. That guides me back to the multi, every time. Compared to most multiclasses you will still be leveling relatively quickly, having the two fastest-leveling classes in the game. You continue to benefit from XP all the way up to the 8M level cap, where both single classes Peter out otherwise with 1.25Mxp or more to go. You can even spend your excess cleric HLA on thief HLAs. The only thing you will miss out on is the level 25 bonus, deliberately set for just over 4M xp.

    Thief -> Cleric has a fair bit to recommend it, but again picking a switch level Is hard. Thieves level fast, so the down time surpassing that level with a cleric takes longer. Dualing early means immature skills, wondering why you bothered. Ultimately, the classes complement each other surprisingly well for the length of the game, and multi really does feel like the best balance - unless your role-play says otherwise ;)

    AerakarThacoBellPokotaRAM021
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 779
    @GreenWarlock What race would you suggest for C/T, then?

  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    There are only two choices, and half-orcs are specific to the EEs. I'll admit I enjoy running a C/T with 19 STR through the early stages of BG. In the first game, that is often better than the extra attack that fighter types earn. It matters less once you have picked up the loot to boost your strength anyway.

    Gnomes are fun when you play all-shorty parties. There is something surprisingly pleasant having no tallfellow sprites in your party :). They get a nice save bonus that will pay off more as the game progresses, although nit quite as nice as there other shorties. They also have a WIS penalty which leans in favor of the half-orc, but to be honest, there are enough bonuses in the first game that should not really matter (unless you are a max-stat munchkin like me!)

    So ultimately it comes down to the roleplaying. What kind of character do you want to play. One of my go-to PCs in any fantasy system is my recurring role of "Hero the half orc" - a chaotic good PC who always means for the best, but has a low charisma owing to his race, so is widely mis-understood. Often take 'int' as a true dump stat, so he can genuinely get the wrong answer, and pursue It with gusto for the best of intents :). Always fun to play.

    Gnome characters tend towards mischievous tinkerers, and a worshiper of Gond can have all sorts of fun in this game. Either way, my C/T playthroughs tend towards the light-hearted, and hit hard when they need to. They tend to recruit the fun, rather than useful, characters around them :)

    tbone1AerakarThacoBellRAM021
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,625
    Shadowdancer/Cleric and Assassin/Cleric make for good duals. Shadowdancers gain quite a bit on the offensive and defensive side as a result of their kit while the assassin can poison their backstabs which is quite useful in preventing cssting though its probaby not worth waiting for the extra backstab multipliers.

    Balrog99
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    An Assassin->cleric (of Bhaal/Bhaal's Essence/The Bhaal Within) seems appropriate for CHARNAME in terms of roleplaying though not an optimal choice in terms of mechanica.

  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 723
    @subtledoctor, how should I go about modding a Halfling cleric/thief using EE Keeper? Your comment above has inspired me to try it.

    Or would you recommend instead using CD Tweaks for this?

  • ShikaoShikao Member Posts: 376
    Aerakar said:

    @subtledoctor, how should I go about modding a Halfling cleric/thief using EE Keeper? Your comment above has inspired me to try it.

    Or would you recommend instead using CD Tweaks for this?

    Personally I have this simply mod installed -> Link
    I just find the restriction too boring in long term... how many times can you run Human Paladin?

    AerakarRAM021
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Aerakar
  • NikomakkosNikomakkos Member Posts: 44
    edited January 2018
    I had this idea of a Thief -> Cleric early dual just for the utility skills Find Traps, Detect Illusion and Open Locks. I would dual as early as possible, perhaps only taking FT and OL up enough so that I can max them with items and increased dex from Draw Upon Holy Might. The idea is that the Cleric kits aren't that awesome, certainly not unmissable so really you are creating your own Cleric kit that's way more useful. Plus it frees up other thiefs to ignore those skills and focus on stealth, setting traps and picking pockets. Or you could go without another thief and instead pick more combat oriented NPCs.

    The reason for doing this with a Cleric is that Sanctuary allows you to open locks and loot chests while Invisibility breaks upon doing that. This is reversed for backstabbing I understand, so a Mage/Thief seems to me better suited for focusing on that (for example Jan). Also they get all the caster only invisibility spells that allow you to backstab.

    The only downside of using a Cleric/Thief for invisibly scouting for traps is that Sanctuary lasts way shorter than Invisibility but it really isn't a downside because a mage or a bard can still cast the latter spell on the Cleric/Thief.

    It seems to me that it would be possible to achieve this dualling at Thief level 8, which would give you 75/75 80/80 Open Locks and Find Traps, assuming 19 Dex (using the tome), and 95 100 Detect Illusion. When you regain your thief abilities you could further increase your DEX by 3, pumping OL and FT to 90 95 and from there you could use the +20% items or pots. Heck, that's even too much so probably you could achieve this dualling already at Thief level 7 (65/65 70/70 and settle for 90 95 DI). Alternatively you could dual at Thief 9 for 70 OL, 100 FT and 100 DI, making finding traps less of a hassle.

    I don't know, maybe this wouldn't be as awesome as I picture it. The idea is mostly to have a Cleric who is extra useful. I was a bit surprised not to find any mention of this idea here. What say you?

    EDIT: Corrected the numbers (I'm pretty sure they're correct now).

    Post edited by Nikomakkos on
    RAM021
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    edited January 2018

    I had this idea of a Thief -> Cleric early dual just for the utility skills Find Traps, Detect Illusion and Open Locks.

    I made a Thief -> Wizard Slayer once and all I got from the Thief levels was Detect Illusions, dual-classing at the moment it reached 100%.

    Must say that the title "wizard slayer" was earned indeed. The character was a beast when it comes to shutting down wizards - even with SCS.

    Detect Illusion + Innate Magic Resistance + Innate Miscast Magic + Darts = I win.

    My next run I'll make a Cleric 3/Enchanter X just to get access to Doom.

    On topic: Early duals is more powerful than late ones, IMHO.

    NikomakkosArctodusRAM021
  • NikomakkosNikomakkos Member Posts: 44
    edited January 2018
    Very cool thoughts. I had another idea. Make him a Bounty Hunter, dual him at lvl 6 and take only Open Locks 85-90 and Set Traps 85-90. The first lvl Bounty Hunter special trap is really cool with the Slow at -4 save.

    It would mean another thief had to do detection duty, and I would only get few low damage traps so perhaps this wouldn't be as good.

    EDIT: This would mostly make him a Cleric that can slow once twice per rest and steal from chests with people in the room (that would work with Sanctuary, wouldn't it? EDIT: Nope, it doesn't work but the guard that spawns can't see you while you're in Sanctuary so you can just leave and never come back).

    Post edited by Nikomakkos on
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    I had this idea of a Thief -> Cleric early dual just for the utility skills Find Traps, Detect Illusion and Open Locks.

    I was a bit surprised not to find any mention of this idea here. What say you?

    It's not that rare. If you're not going to backstab, start off as a Swashbuckler. Not you get an innate +2 AC, +1 thac0, and specialization. (Though be aware, due to an engine bug, C/T multiclasses do not get bonus .5 APR from specialization even if you specifically enable it in clswpbon.2da.)
    Specialisation only grants APR bonuses for Fighter classes in regular gameplay. I think tweaks mod changes this, and the engine certainly doesn't accommodate otherwise, but it's rules as written and intended for APR to stay at 1.

    Dual class Bounty Hunter 13 -> Cleric gives them their arguably best trap (save at -1 or Hold + 4D8+5 damge) and enough skills to max Set Snare, Detect Illusions, and enough in Open Lock and Find Traps to max both with DUHM.

    Assassin -> Cleric is a waste. Assassin's +1/+1 damage and poison weapon are not great tradeoffs for -10 skills/level.

    Shadowdancer -> Anything is nonsensical shenanigans, because HiPS is stupid.

    Swashbuckler -> Cleric is decent, points into snares and illusions with no downside, level 12 gives +2/+2 and -3 AC with an extra pip to specialise with.

    Cleric/Thief (gnome, Half-Orc suck) gets to offhand a +APR weapon with the FoA or something. Even better if you're willing to keeper in a kit (and really, why would a multiclass cleric not be able to dedicate themselves to Lathander?), and can Boon up to 8 APR with Improved Haste, plus HLA traps in the long run. Snares are generally awesome too with Chant/Doom support.

    The best would be a Fighter/Cleric/Thief triple, but until some enterprising soul cludges together a kit for F/M/T I don't see that happening any time soon.

    [Deleted User]Aerakar
  • NikomakkosNikomakkos Member Posts: 44
    Pantalion said:

    Shadowdancer -> Anything is nonsensical shenanigans, because HiPS is stupid.

    lol

    Anyway, I realized I underestimated the skill points. Somehow I did the math wrong, I think I forgot the initial skill points for the 1st level or something. Bounty Hunter lvl 6 could have 100/95 in OL/ST with 19 DEX. I probably underestimated all the other stuff I wrote too, which means it is even easier to dual a thief early. Which is wonderful.

    Balrog99
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2018
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    PantalionAerakar
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Shadowdancer -> Anything is nonsensical shenanigans, because HiPS is stupid.


    Heresy!

    RAM021
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