dramatic... put them here your post if you think they are so insightful, we don't need 12 topic on the subject, that's probably why they deleated yours
You had a thread deleted, and by a right justify, take that as a risk control from the modders. Did you had any post here deleted in this thread? I believe you don't, so feel free to expose your opinion here.
Hey @Tanthalas, more respect with the anarchists , let's not mistake nihilism with anarchy, Oscar Wilde would roll in his grave reading this.
I've been pointedly ignoring this thread, but I do feel the need to say this:
I don't want a romance, same-sex or opposite-sex, if it is not well-written. If a developer includes a same-sex romance option for the sake of including one, and doesn't make it compelling as a story element, I'd rather it not be there at all. I also think that there needs to be room for the player to tell the character definitively that "I don't swing that way", and the character needs to respond in kind. I think that some people have a problem with the idea of a "gay romance" because it makes the assumption that all player characters are bisexual and therefore open to whoever comes their way.
I also don't think that every character needs to be gay or bisexual. This undermines the integrity of the game's story, which is something that should be avoided. A character should be the same regardless of the player's interaction with them.
That said, I think that culturally it's important to explore these things. If there's room for a romance between a male and another male, and it can be told well, then it should definitely be included. If the person writing the dialogue can't pull it off, I would really rather they didn't try. Again, quality is more important than special interests. But I think a big part of the problem isn't in whether or not to include them, but rather in whether or not it should be a tacked on element for all characters in every game.
I submit that it should be used with intention, just like any other element of story or gameplay. That's all I'll say on the matter.
That's a good point, I would like to point to DAII for how this can be done poorly I think. Some of that came over, well kinda aggressive and sort of felt like it was tacked on just to be there.
I also think that there needs to be room for the player to tell the character definitively that "I don't swing that way", and the character needs to respond in kind. I think that some people have a problem with the idea of a "gay romance" because it makes the assumption that all player characters are bisexual and therefore open to whoever comes their way.
Do you mean you need to be able to essentially tell a character "I'm not gay" rather than simply "I'm not interested". I don't think that it would be 'political correctness gone mad' to suggest that by the same token one should be able to say "I'm not straight" to any opposite-sex NPC. I absolutely don't think it's necessary.
Why does the option of a gay romance assume bisexuality? That's like saying any gameplay option assumes that the PC is going to want to do it. The fact that it is an option absolutely recognises that the PC MIGHT want to do it, and might not.
EDIT: You've already answered half of this. Having taken a short tea-break, I took too long to post.
How about a dialogue that goes, "Listen bro, you're really cool and everything but Im not interested" for all chars including straight ones. Then you just go down the friendship path (think gaurrus in ME for both sexes)
How about a dialogue that goes, "Listen bro, you're really cool and everything but Im not interested" for all chars including straight ones. Then you just go down the friendship path (think gaurrus in ME for both sexes)
spoiler for ME3 (for the few of you who can still be spoiled)
I was referring to how garrus and you are best friends at the end (even if your femshep and snub him). Never let kaiden live so I was unaware of that scene but thats and even better example
I also think that there needs to be room for the player to tell the character definitively that "I don't swing that way", and the character needs to respond in kind. I think that some people have a problem with the idea of a "gay romance" because it makes the assumption that all player characters are bisexual and therefore open to whoever comes their way.
Do you mean you need to be able to essentially tell a character "I'm not gay" rather than simply "I'm not interested". I don't think that it would be 'political correctness gone mad' to suggest that by the same token one should be able to say "I'm not straight" to any opposite-sex NPC. I absolutely don't think it's necessary.
Why does the option of a gay romance assume bisexuality? That's like saying any gameplay option assumes that the PC is going to want to do it. The fact that it is an option absolutely recognises that the PC MIGHT want to do it, and might not.
EDIT: You've already answered half of this. Having taken a short tea-break, I took too long to post.
Specifically, instances like DA2 where every character has the potential to be a romance option for either sex. It assumes that all characters in DA2 are bisexual, which is an overly convenient and not very well-written solution. I think that a lot of people think of DA2 when they think about "gay romance" in games, which is understandably a turn-off.
Personally, I see it as a turn-off from romances in games in general, but...yeah. If a character is bisexual, they should be bisexual; if a character is gay, they should be gay; if a character is straight, they should be straight. Convenience of sexuality is something that should be avoided, I think; which isn't to say that alternate sexuality in general should be avoided. I just think it should be an actual choice in the writing.
as long as they don't put in bi-romances like those in DAII, does everyone really need to be bi? I can understand like one or two but statistically speaking..... plus then you end up with poorly written generic romances that they can apply to both situations. Zevram, now Zevram is an awesome bi character who is that way regardless of what sex your player is
@salieri I don't think I said "player characters", but really I mean any character that isn't the player. Even if they don't join your party, I won't discount the possibility for a romance to happen. But it should be well-written, however it occurs.
@Shandyr That's actually the kind of thing I'd rather avoid. It speaks to a lack of commitment on the part of the developers. A character's sexual orientation is a deep part of who that character is, because it changes how that person views other people. In the Anders example, it would be a more compelling and fully realized character if he was actually bisexual, rather than conveniently oriented to whatever you happen to be.
The bisexual character in BG:EE should (and probably will) be bisexual, not just open to whatever the player character's gender is. And that's the way I think it ought to be.
I feel like if he is straight he needs to be straight regardless of your playchar's sex. I think that writing for both orientations compromises the actual romance and how it's written. I think that Anders char needed to be written bisexual if they wanted to go that way.
I haven't played DA2, but speaking more generally I'm sure if a character were bisexual there would be no especial reason to specifically make that clear. Obviously in real life this would simply come up in conversation, but if that character expressed a romantic interest in the player character, I don't see why they would have to discuss who else they were attracted to. Unless you were RPing a really insecure PC who is always asking their partner to compare how they look to everyone else they meet.
As well written as they may be, these relationships are still going to be pretty shallow and play out over literally a few hundred words. In which case, parsimony might be a virtue.
Slight topic-shift, but I just had a flashback to hiring same-sex prostitutes in Divine Divinity - 10 years ago. 10 YEARS! AND THEY WERE PROSTITUTES! People must have been up-in-arms on some forum somewhere at the time.
Comments
There's a difference between freedom and anarchy.
Hey @Tanthalas, more respect with the anarchists
I deleted some of his more inflammatory posts.
I don't want a romance, same-sex or opposite-sex, if it is not well-written. If a developer includes a same-sex romance option for the sake of including one, and doesn't make it compelling as a story element, I'd rather it not be there at all. I also think that there needs to be room for the player to tell the character definitively that "I don't swing that way", and the character needs to respond in kind. I think that some people have a problem with the idea of a "gay romance" because it makes the assumption that all player characters are bisexual and therefore open to whoever comes their way.
I also don't think that every character needs to be gay or bisexual. This undermines the integrity of the game's story, which is something that should be avoided. A character should be the same regardless of the player's interaction with them.
That said, I think that culturally it's important to explore these things. If there's room for a romance between a male and another male, and it can be told well, then it should definitely be included. If the person writing the dialogue can't pull it off, I would really rather they didn't try. Again, quality is more important than special interests. But I think a big part of the problem isn't in whether or not to include them, but rather in whether or not it should be a tacked on element for all characters in every game.
I submit that it should be used with intention, just like any other element of story or gameplay. That's all I'll say on the matter.
That's a good point, I would like to point to DAII for how this can be done poorly I think. Some of that came over, well kinda aggressive and sort of felt like it was tacked on just to be there.
Absolutely. If it's going to be an element of gameplay, it should be consistent throughout.
Why does the option of a gay romance assume bisexuality? That's like saying any gameplay option assumes that the PC is going to want to do it. The fact that it is an option absolutely recognises that the PC MIGHT want to do it, and might not.
EDIT: You've already answered half of this. Having taken a short tea-break, I took too long to post.
How about a dialogue that goes, "Listen bro, you're really cool and everything but Im not interested" for all chars including straight ones. Then you just go down the friendship path (think gaurrus in ME for both sexes)
spoiler for ME3 (for the few of you who can still be spoiled)
Personally, I see it as a turn-off from romances in games in general, but...yeah. If a character is bisexual, they should be bisexual; if a character is gay, they should be gay; if a character is straight, they should be straight. Convenience of sexuality is something that should be avoided, I think; which isn't to say that alternate sexuality in general should be avoided. I just think it should be an actual choice in the writing.
@Aosaw took to long to post, totally agree
That's actually the kind of thing I'd rather avoid. It speaks to a lack of commitment on the part of the developers. A character's sexual orientation is a deep part of who that character is, because it changes how that person views other people. In the Anders example, it would be a more compelling and fully realized character if he was actually bisexual, rather than conveniently oriented to whatever you happen to be.
The bisexual character in BG:EE should (and probably will) be bisexual, not just open to whatever the player character's gender is. And that's the way I think it ought to be.
I feel like if he is straight he needs to be straight regardless of your playchar's sex. I think that writing for both orientations compromises the actual romance and how it's written. I think that Anders char needed to be written bisexual if they wanted to go that way.
And there's nothing wrong with making him bisexual. Some of my favorite characters are bisexual.
Im not saying that there is, Im just saying the writers need to commit to what he is and write him that way.
As well written as they may be, these relationships are still going to be pretty shallow and play out over literally a few hundred words. In which case, parsimony might be a virtue.
well in the case of anders I believe that a lover in his back story actually changes sexes depending on what the sex of your mainchar is