@Quartz it really didn't look like @Insert_Boo had responded to any prior post about religion whatsoever. All he is doing is marking his own ideologies about this thread and personal experience, which includes his religious background. You are right about one thing with the religion, and no, it does not belong in this forum because not everyone holds the same one.
@Insert_Boo does have a point about the remarks about the rapid progression of our cultures when it is marked around homosexuality. I agree that debates like this will be akin to racism and how racism is seen today in the United States, whereas it will not really be tolerated by the general public, and the nay Sayers will dissolve into the minority.
Lastly, and I have tried not to say this, but the monotheistic religions are largely to blame for the eventual widespread of homophobia in the first place anyways. I did my research and that's my conclusion.
Religion does not belong in this thread, but by definition, it is indirectly linked to it, because of where that value system relates to.
@Quartz@Kamulzin@Xavioria To be fair, on this and other threads, some people are just generally uncomfortable with being hit on by a member of their own sex. I've been hit on by both sexes, and I generally find a "thanks, I'm flattered, but I don't swing that way" to be sufficient in letting them know I am not interested. Why is this so hard for most people? You don't have to go into rant about how they are horrible sinners and going to hell for being sexually interested in the same sex. Just a "no thanks, not interested in that." and they accept it. (If they don't, they are jerks, but let's face it, jerks exist in all races, sexes and orientations- they are not limited to any one race, sex or orientation. In that case a "Not interested, what part of that don't you get/understand?" usually gets them to back off.)
@Quartz@Kamulzin@Xavioria To be fair, on this and other threads, some people are just generally uncomfortable with being hit on by a member of their own sex. I've been hit on by both sexes, and I generally find a "thanks, I'm flattered, but I don't swing that way" to be sufficient in letting them know I am not interested. Why is this so hard for most people? You don't have to go into rant about how they are horrible sinners and going to hell for being sexually interested in the same sex. Just a "no thanks, not interested in that." and they accept it. (If they don't, they are jerks, but let's face it, jerks exist in all races, sexes and orientations- they are not limited to any one race, sex or orientation. In that case a "Not interested, what part of that don't you get/understand?" usually gets them to back off.)
Umm. I agree with you, but I don't see how this has anything to do with me, lol.
Bias is not always because of religion, it can usually be expressed through it, or using it as an excuse, but it could be something else just as easy. Some times i don't like the fact that "religion" is treated like a single willful person, this mentality can hit other topics too and then it becomes dangerous. All religious people are biased, but atheists are not, and all of science is for the good of man with no regard to capital, right? That's why we still use oil for electricity feed, i'm sure.
Biased people can be religious too.
Religious people are not all biased. It doesn't mean everyone that believes in some higher power or Benjamin Franklin($$) accepts the Bible as his morality code. Even Christians, all they have to do is accept love and pacifism, understanding and mercy, that's all there is to it. Why anything else?
In any way, tolerance for the different should cover everything, if he wants to see it as a sin, so be it. I don't have to agree, or flame him for it.
I just think that sin, although i dislike the word, should be something like a conscious choice, following urges you have no way to overcome or stop is no conscious choice. What is someone like that to do, believe he's a sinner and then spend his life alone in shame to atone for something he didn't do? Give them a break.
@Mornmagor nicely said, i just disagree in one point, many religions follows an old fashioned radical fundamentalist idea, sometimes the problem isn't on religion but in follow the idea of a person that lived thousand years ago that thought killing anyone that didn't accept his/her god was right.
The right sequence should be:
Religion = Belief > another person interpretation.
It would have been really nice if the team here had remained true to the original game instead. IF I purchase this game (unlikely at the moment) I'll mod it out of the game.
@Sir_Carnifex Which part? The new NPCs, or the fact that one of them is bisexual?
You should know that you don't have to actually recruit any of the new NPCs. You can send them merrily on their way and they'll never bother you again.
Just the one. Easy enough to add in a check to remove the "bi" option. I know that you can send them on your way, but I prefer that that stuff doesn't scratch the game. Very disappointed in the devs.
Just trying to get a beat on your reasoning. If it had something to do with something tangible, like the expected quality of writing, we might have had something to talk about, which might be worthwhile to the developers.
Well, I don't really trust writing to be good, either, considering how games are done these days. However, in that regard, I typically try to give the benefit of the doubt.
That's fair. And it will probably be fairly simple to mod out any part of the EE that you don't like.
You could also try to discourage the romance through dialogue. I don't imagine it will be as easy to "get stuck" here as it is in some other video games.
I know that you can send them on your way, but I prefer that that stuff doesn't scratch the game. Very disappointed in the devs.
The complaint of this "changing" the game is a legitimate one. Before, all the bisexual/homosexual romances were left up to the modding community. Now it is going to be in an official product. This is, I'll admit, a bit worrisome to me because I'd really rather keep the *changes* to the game minimal. Improvements upon existing features? Awesome. Changes? Scary. And I know I'm not the only one scared of changes, just look at all the bickering about the UI.
The whole idea of "gay" romance is, quite frankly, disgusting. I tip-toed around saying that directly at first, but since you asked...
That's not much of an argument, just a feeling of you. It's not even like gay romance IS disgusting, you find it disgusting.
As per religion, once religion doesn't give one on a one-on-one basis a moral outlook on life. My parents are christian for instance, but in a very free-thinking way: everyone is entitled to their own belief is their opinion, they're even more tolerant than me as an atheist. They are left-thinking, care about what happens to other people and to our natural environment. I know (from media-outings about it) especially in America there can be very right-wing christians that don't care about the natural world we live in a bit. It's often with those kind of beliefs that homophobism is coupled, is the idea I get from the media (I don't know any right-wing christians myself). So it's not christianity per se that's homophobic. But a friend of mine did some study into homophobism and it's relation to religion, and he found it almost lacking in hinduism, buddhism, confucianism and very vibrant in abrahamistic religions. There's definitely something wrong and vile with the bible-text that said that a man sleeping with another man is an abberation. Much evil came from that, but not all christians are tainted with it per-se.
Let's not get this out of hand, you two. It's been made pretty clear that one of you thinks gay romance is disgusting, and the other thinks it's not. It's also pretty clear that the developers are more inclined to listen to the "not disgusting" camp, being rather progressive and forward-thinking themselves.
If you really do care about the issue, please take it to PMs, but kindly leave the vitriol out of the public forums. I'm sorry for asking the question that sparked this little upburst, but we should all attempt to be civil.
Well, I'm not for silencing the opposition, that's why I'm fishing for arguments. But I hopped into the topic on page 18 and I don't have the energy to read 17 pages of text, but I heard rumours on other topics this topic was very heated. Thus far (page 19-21) I find the discussion quite mild and based with arguments, so yeah, that's why I'd like to hear arguments. But if that would start another topic-war. But I like discussion and I wonder what could be morally wrong about homosexuality beside uneasy feelings about it if your straight (which I was familiar with myself before I knew I had gay friends and afterwards got to know some gays better).
As for religion not being homophopic per-se: you can test my argument by asking religious people and you'll find a lot of people that aren't homophobic. I don't think the opposite argument from what I'm saying very factual. The opposite of what I'm saying would be 'all religious people are the same'.
Side with whom you want, but really, always using the term "forward-thinking" is just a veiled insult with those who disagree. Sadly, insults seem to be the standard method of operation from that side.
@Son_of_Imoen anyone is entitled to have his/her opinion, if you don't agree keep it to youself or post it without attack directly another person as @Sir_Carnifex didn't attacked personally anyone.
If he just "feel" disgusting", that's how he feel, if he don't give any reason to feel that way there's no argument to be raised, and of course the deves are not going to take "someone feelings" in account for a possible retreat in homossexual content.
What he feel or think will change nothing, the game will have the bi character, no battle is needed.
Well, I'm not looking for battle, more for insight, but perhaps this is the wrong place to seek. Let me explain: I have been looking at the first 5 pages of this topic and was wondering what all the fuss was about. I did find neither insults (what I'm not very interested in) but neither did I find arguments (reasons, what rationale do people have to find a. gay romance wrong, b. not want in the game). But at page 5 I realized there had been some clean-up done by Thalanthus of what must have been quit severe topic-war. I quite liked the insightful discussions of the last few pages, but to keep it that way, it seems I need to back-of, as I see some people do find me offensive or provocative, which wasn't my intention to do. I wanted to tintilate into debate, not war. Seeing this topic (not Sir_Carnifex per se) can turn out to be a minefield. I'll retreat my steps out of the explosive area. And I'll seek a different twist and answer Shandyr in a next post.
@Shandyr I am tolerant of intolerance only insofar as you keep it to yourself and don't allow what you do and do not tolerate to dictate to my life or the lives of others who do not agree with you. Does that make me tolerant (because I allow them to dictate to their own lives) or intolerant (that I do not allow them to dictate to mine or anyone else who doesn't agree with them)?
@Son_of_Imoen anyone is entitled to have his/her opinion, if you don't agree keep it to youself or post it without attack directly another person as @Sir_Carnifex didn't attacked personally anyone.
If he just "feel" disgusting", that's how he feel, if he don't give any reason to feel that way there's no argument to be raised, and of course the deves are not going to take "someone feelings" in account for a possible retreat in homossexual content.
What he feel or think will change nothing, the game will have the bi character, no battle is needed.
He didn't personally attack anyone but stating that he finds gay romance 'disgusting' seems to be deliberately inflammatory. It could have been said about anything, from sexuality to race, and it would have probably offended someone/provoked a reaction. It's possible to state an opinion without being that blunt and pejorative about how a number of members of this forum live. It's possible to disagree tactfully and not be straight out offensive.
@Son_of_Imoen anyone is entitled to have his/her opinion, if you don't agree keep it to youself or post it without attack directly another person as @Sir_Carnifex didn't attacked personally anyone.
If he just "feel" disgusting", that's how he feel, if he don't give any reason to feel that way there's no argument to be raised, and of course the deves are not going to take "someone feelings" in account for a possible retreat in homossexual content.
What he feel or think will change nothing, the game will have the bi character, no battle is needed.
He didn't personally attack anyone but stating that he finds gay romance 'disgusting' seems to be deliberately inflammatory. It could have been said about anything, from sexuality to race, and it would have probably offended someone/provoked a reaction. It's possible to state an opinion without being that blunt and pejorative about how a number of members of this forum live. It's possible to disagree tactfully and not be straight out offensive.
He wasn't being deliberately inflammatory. He was asked *twice* before he came out with that response. He was stating why it bothered him, he wasn't even shoving his beliefs on others, he was just asked what bothered him and he admitted it. Now you and Tanthalas of course had to go and try to get offended. GG, guys. (Mind you, I agree with Tanthalas calling him out on that ridiculous "that's how the other side operates" insult, but I think the comparison he made was completely illogical.)
Comments
@Insert_Boo does have a point about the remarks about the rapid progression of our cultures when it is marked around homosexuality. I agree that debates like this will be akin to racism and how racism is seen today in the United States, whereas it will not really be tolerated by the general public, and the nay Sayers will dissolve into the minority.
Lastly, and I have tried not to say this, but the monotheistic religions are largely to blame for the eventual widespread of homophobia in the first place anyways. I did my research and that's my conclusion.
Religion does not belong in this thread, but by definition, it is indirectly linked to it, because of where that value system relates to.
Biased people can be religious too.
Religious people are not all biased. It doesn't mean everyone that believes in some higher power or Benjamin Franklin($$) accepts the Bible as his morality code. Even Christians, all they have to do is accept love and pacifism, understanding and mercy, that's all there is to it. Why anything else?
In any way, tolerance for the different should cover everything, if he wants to see it as a sin, so be it. I don't have to agree, or flame him for it.
I just think that sin, although i dislike the word, should be something like a conscious choice, following urges you have no way to overcome or stop is no conscious choice. What is someone like that to do, believe he's a sinner and then spend his life alone in shame to atone for something he didn't do? Give them a break.
No offense to anyone :]
Back to studying - /hops away ^^
P.S. Give that female sword or else... ~_o
The right sequence should be:
Religion = Belief > another person interpretation.
But today, unfortunally we see much of:
Religion = another person interpretation > belief
But i do hit them back... o_O
You should know that you don't have to actually recruit any of the new NPCs. You can send them merrily on their way and they'll never bother you again.
You could also try to discourage the romance through dialogue. I don't imagine it will be as easy to "get stuck" here as it is in some other video games.
As per religion, once religion doesn't give one on a one-on-one basis a moral outlook on life. My parents are christian for instance, but in a very free-thinking way: everyone is entitled to their own belief is their opinion, they're even more tolerant than me as an atheist. They are left-thinking, care about what happens to other people and to our natural environment. I know (from media-outings about it) especially in America there can be very right-wing christians that don't care about the natural world we live in a bit. It's often with those kind of beliefs that homophobism is coupled, is the idea I get from the media (I don't know any right-wing christians myself). So it's not christianity per se that's homophobic. But a friend of mine did some study into homophobism and it's relation to religion, and he found it almost lacking in hinduism, buddhism, confucianism and very vibrant in abrahamistic religions. There's definitely something wrong and vile with the bible-text that said that a man sleeping with another man is an abberation. Much evil came from that, but not all christians are tainted with it per-se.
If you really do care about the issue, please take it to PMs, but kindly leave the vitriol out of the public forums. I'm sorry for asking the question that sparked this little upburst, but we should all attempt to be civil.
As for religion not being homophopic per-se: you can test my argument by asking religious people and you'll find a lot of people that aren't homophobic. I don't think the opposite argument from what I'm saying very factual. The opposite of what I'm saying would be 'all religious people are the same'.
If he just "feel" disgusting", that's how he feel, if he don't give any reason to feel that way there's no argument to be raised, and of course the deves are not going to take "someone feelings" in account for a possible retreat in homossexual content.
What he feel or think will change nothing, the game will have the bi character, no battle is needed.