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Keeping Imoen out of the picture

It is important when making expansions to the BG series to annoy Imoen fans either by arbitrarily changing her character or coming up with a reason why she can't be a party member. So, if there was to be another expansion to the BG series how would you go about this?

Here are my suggestions:

1. Imoen can join your party but if she does Irenicus appears from nowhere and turns her into a Carrion Crawler. There is no way to change her back because Irenicus used a special spell that no one else knows.

2. As soon as Imoen joins your party Irenicus turns up and puts you all to sleep using a special spell that only he knows. That night you dream that you have beaten Imoen to death with a club. You wake up and find out that this is true. There is no way to resurrect her because you used a Club of Soul Stealing. Imoen's soul is now trapped in a club that says "Heya, it's me Imoen" every time you hit an enemy. You have to journey to hell to free Imoen's soul. At this point she dies.

3. Imoen can join your party and her character has been given lots more interactions with other party members. However, due to a misunderstanding in the production office David Warner was booked for the recording session instead of Melissa Disney. Now if Imoen joins your party Irenicus turns up and puts the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity on her and she has to spend the rest of the game as a man. The belt cannot be removed because Irenicus used a special spell that no one else knows.

UnderstandMouseMagicthemazingness

Comments

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,034
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406
    @Artemius_I
    I was aiming for lightly humorous tinged with irony. Maybe I need to work on my material?

    O_Bruce
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 506
    Now I want that talking club with full understanding how disgusting my wish is :)

    Permidion_StarkdunbarContemplative_Hamster
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,809
    Mirandel said:

    Now I want that talking club with full understanding how disgusting my wish is :)

    Be careful what you wish for. Something like this can easily be done. ;)

    MirandelPermidion_StarkContemplative_Hamster
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    A thread like this is the eqivalent of human catnip to me.

    4. She suffers a head injury a' la Minsc and become another barbarian rager constantly repeating "Hya it's me Imoen" because otherwise she can't remember her name.

    5. Under the influence of "Aunty" Jaheira she can't join your party because she has joined the local Druids and has become a tree hugger to learn more about "balance".

    6. From not being a Bhaalspawn to being a Bhaalspawn to embracing the identity completely, she runs off to join the "Five" and hopefully aid the resurrection of Bhaal.

    tbone1Permidion_Starkbatoorthemazingness
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    I just want Imoen-Be-Gone :(

    GodUnderstandMouseMagic
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,042
    She is simply too busy using her archmage powers to prank Elmister across time and space. With lots of magical created incidental music.

    Permidion_Stark
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406

    4. She suffers a head injury a' la Minsc and become another barbarian rager constantly repeating "Hya it's me Imoen" because otherwise she can't remember her name.

    I can see this one. It happens when she turns up at the library to continue her studies and says: "Heya, it's me Imoen," for the umpteenth time, at which point Liia Jannath pushes a Tome of Clear Thought off the top of a stack of books so it lands on her head.

    But what does she get instead of Boo?

  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,132
    One the things that bugs me bout her is her heritage. If she were to stay dead when she is dead, being Bhaalspawn like CHARNAME is, it would fit better, to me at least. No second chances. This way, those that despise her can be indifferent or praise her death (getting to see that nice effect like we did with Mr S, and those that love her can make darn sure they protect her like the lil 'sister' she is. It seems like it would make keeping her from dying be a bit more meaningful through the game. None of this raising her upteen times stuff.
    Just basing this off how I feel after a character I like gets chunked after bring them along for a good period of time, no-reload style. Well, it would me anyway. B)

    For that matter, I reckon we could use the quickening effect from Highlander, as it is 'The Time of the Gathering' in ToB.

    Permidion_Stark
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406
    edited September 2017
    Zaghoul said:

    One the things that bugs me bout her is her heritage. If she were to stay dead when she is dead, being Bhaalspawn like CHARNAME is, it would fit better, to me at least. No second chances.

    That's basically how I always play her. I never play without Imoen in my party (unless she has been made unavailable for some unfathomable reason) and if she dies it is game over. I quit and start again.

    My idea of soloing is Charname and Imoen going on an adventure together.

    tbone1Zaghoul
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,132

    Zaghoul said:

    One the things that bugs me bout her is her heritage. If she were to stay dead when she is dead, being Bhaalspawn like CHARNAME is, it would fit better, to me at least. No second chances.

    That's basically how I always play her. I never play without Imoen in my party (unless she has been made unavailable for some unfathomable reason) and if she dies it is game over. I quit and start again.

    My idea of soloing is Charname and Imoen going on an adventure together.
    That's pretty hardcore. I reload only if my PC dies and use anyone and everyone else as a sacrifice to keep that from happening. An Imoen no-reload is an interesting prospect. She just never quite fits PCs I make but I will say BGNPC project makes her MUCH more enjoyable to run with. Actually, before that mod I didn't mind her dying a bit, now I at least get her to a place of safety and drop her off. She at least has more meaningful interaction now over a non modded game. B)

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406
    edited September 2017
    @Zaghoul
    Actually I never really consider Imoen as Bhaalspawn. In my mind BG1 is Gospel: Imoen is my little sister and she's a thief. BG2 is the Apocrypha: it's interesting but you don't have to believe any of it.

    Post edited by Permidion_Stark on
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403
    I never use Imoen. But I do use Vic every play through in various roles as damage/support/tank depends on my class.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    jastey said:

    When I played BGII the first time, I was so startled by Imoen's BGII potrait and the fact that (in the German version) she addresses the PC in the polite form instead of the usual "Du" between siblings/old friends, I was *absolutely* convinced she'd be a doppleganger.

    So, make Imoen in BGII a doppelganger Irenicus placed into the dungeon to remain control over you. Your escape was a fake, same as the kidnapping of Imoen in the Waukeen's Promeande. All orchestrated by Irenicus to make you follow him to Brynnlaw and find your power while doing so (and because he likes scheeming for you, this would be in line with SoD). And when you finally come to your sister's rescue, she'll turn into a doppelganger and scream "Haha! Fooled you!".
    I'm not decided what would have happened to the original Imoen, though.

    Oh I like this. :)

    It's so true, everything fits much better than in the game.
    The "escape" never seems genuine after you meet Irenicus in Spellhold.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 956
    edited September 2017
    Well, you could turn the tables and have the 'real' Imoen appear in Spellhold after charname defeats Irenicus (I'd assume that once he makes his convienient exit, whatever wards he put up to prevent entry to the Asylum would go down). Turns out all this time instead of waiting for a rescue, Imoen has been trying to find charname.

    Mantis37
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 506
    jastey said:

    When I played BGII the first time, I was so startled by Imoen's BGII potrait and the fact that (in the German version) she addresses the PC in the polite form instead of the usual "Du" between siblings/old friends, I was *absolutely* convinced she'd be a doppleganger.

    So, make Imoen in BGII a doppelganger Irenicus placed into the dungeon to remain control over you. Your escape was a fake, same as the kidnapping of Imoen in the Waukeen's Promeande. All orchestrated by Irenicus to make you follow him to Brynnlaw and find your power while doing so (and because he likes scheeming for you, this would be in line with SoD). And when you finally come to your sister's rescue, she'll turn into a doppelganger and scream "Haha! Fooled you!".
    I'm not decided what would have happened to the original Imoen, though.

    If you ever decide to make such a mod - count me in beta-testers, please.

    As an idea - the real Imoen could be killed in SoD with that poison knife: the poison WAS real after all and "recovery" was just a way to put doppelganger in Imoen's place in a believable manner. (Obviously, Coelar was convinced otherwise and sincere in her believes about fake poison)

    Artona
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    I'd kill Minsc and Jaheira while at it - to start BG2 in a completely clean slate.

  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
    jastey said:


    I'm not decided what would have happened to the original Imoen, though.

    Imoen never existed to begin with.

    Mind. Blown.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Kurona said:

    I'd kill Minsc and Jaheira while at it - to start BG2 in a completely clean slate.

    Everybody is a doppleganger.
    That's why the one you meet is so pissed when you don't let him come with you.

    I've always thought BG2 should have carried on with the dopplegangers. They were a very nasty enemy and could have caused all sorts of mayhem. Linked them to "the hidden" for instance, or have them involved with the illithids in the sewers (Tazok's key). Which would have been an excellent continuation from Durlag's Tower.

    tbone1
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881

    Kurona said:

    I'd kill Minsc and Jaheira while at it - to start BG2 in a completely clean slate.

    Everybody is a doppleganger.
    That's why the one you meet is so pissed when you don't let him come with you.
    I suppose it could work but to be honest BG doppelgangers are kind of bizarre. Lore-wise they are supposed to steal the identities of people of power and influence and use it to basically live their lives with nobody ever figuring the truth. For some reason the Iron Throne's doppelgangers are content with being mere minions and this is kind of weird. I'm willing to cut the ones in Durlag's Tower some slack considering mind flayers were involved though.

    Anyways the real reason I was saying I'd kill Minsc and Jaheira is because the sheer amount of BG1 characters who mysteriously ended up in Amn at the same time as Charname is kind of ridiculous. Let's do the list:

    - Imoen
    - Minsc
    - Jaheira
    - Viconia
    - Edwin
    - Faldorn
    - Quayle
    - Xzar
    - Coran
    - Safana
    - Garrick

    EE adds Neera, Dorn and Rasaad. You also have Tiax in Spellhold and counting the dead it adds Ajantis, Montaron, Khalid and Dynaheir.

    Sure not all of them are party members but so many familiar faces undermines quite a bit the "lost in an unfamiliar place" bit, no?

    Nowadays I just outright remove all of them with the exception of Imoen and Edwin (because too much effort and for Imoen I'd need to change the plot ;_;). End up using BG2 exclusive characters and add a few mods I like (Faren, Adrian...)

    Artonatbone1
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406
    The doppelganger things makes sense because whoever that is in BG2 it definitely isn't the real Imoen. Because the real Imoen can't cast spells. My theory is that Irenicus was watching the Charname from a distance and saw Imoen cast a Magic Missile and didn't realise it was from a wand. He therefore assumed that she had dualled from a thief to a mage (he was of course completely wrong in this assumption because I know for a fact that she hadn't). Meanwhile, the Charname, who knows that Imoen is a pure class thief, sees the Imoen doppelganger casting a Magic Missile on Waukeen's Promenade, but presumes she is using a wand.

    This also explains why I lose interest in getting to Spellhold to save Imoen halfway through BG2 (usually when I am wandering through the Umar Hills on some pointless quest or other) because this is obviously the point when my Charname says: "Hang on a minute, didn't Imoen cast a whole load of spells in Irenicus's dungeon?". At which point it dawns on the Charname that whoever it is that got taken to Spellhold it definitely isn't Imoen (who is probably currently running the Beregost Chapter of the Thieves' Guild. It is situated in one of those houses that you can't get into, which is why you have never noticed it).

    UnderstandMouseMagicContemplative_Hamster[Deleted User]tbone1
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,505
    edited September 2017
    Kurona said:

    I'd kill Minsc and Jaheira is because the sheer amount of BG1 characters who mysteriously ended up in Amn at the same time as Charname is kind of ridiculous. Let's do the list:

    - Imoen
    - Minsc
    - Jaheira
    - Viconia
    - Edwin
    - Faldorn
    - Quayle
    - Xzar
    - Coran
    - Safana
    - Garrick

    EE adds Neera, Dorn and Rasaad. You also have Tiax in Spellhold and counting the dead it adds Ajantis, Montaron, Khalid and Dynaheir.

    I totally see your point, albeit Imoen, Minsc, Jaheira, and also Khalid and Dynaheir are the only ones that make sense if we assume they were captured together with the PC. Ajantis' Order is in Athkatla together with his mentor Keldorn from where he was sent to investigate ongoings on the Sword Coast, so his presence makes a lot of sense, too. As for the others, their presence doesn't make any sense, and it's too much to say it was "luck". I have no clue why Edwin would be in the Shadow Thieves' guild in Athkatla, for example, for me it's a far stretch for a Red Wizard from Thay. Was he such a popular NPC or why did he get such an important role in BGII? But nontheless, I see the devs intend to let the player meet as many BG1 NPCs as possible, and wonder whether there were discussions about who could join and who couldn't back in the days. :)

    ThacoBell
  • themazingnessthemazingness Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 548
    Boo gets rabies from a cursed bat. Before a priest is able to cast cure disease and remove curse, he bites Imoen. Imoen gets permanently stuck as a were-giant-space-hamster (no human transformation), only able to squeek (in an attempt to say "Heya, it's me Imoen").

    Permidion_Starktbone1Contemplative_Hamster
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    @Kurona

    The reason so many turn up in BG2 IMO is because the writers/developers were so invested in what they had created they wanted to expand on it. BG, because of the limitations at the time, didn't allow them to do that.

    A players creative investment is "charname", the writers/developers creative investment is the NPCs. It makes sense that they would want to see their characters carry on if they liked or were proud of the character. Just as players take their charname through the game.


    ThacoBell
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406
    edited September 2017

    A players creative investment is "charname", the writers/developers creative investment is the NPCs. It makes sense that they would want to see their characters carry on if they liked or were proud of the character. Just as players take their charname through the game.

    I think players put a lot of creative investment into the NPCs as well. I know I did with the ones in BG1. They may not have said much but I managed to fill in the blanks for myself based on the clues that were given. I loved having Edwin and Alora together even though they only say a couple of things to each other and I always felt that Kivan and Viconia should either come to blows or get a room, either seemed equally likely.

    That's why I felt it was a mistake on the part of the developers of BG2 to kill off BG1 companion characters off-screen or reintroduce them as bit part players and plot devices. The player has had direct control over the Charname's companions for a whole game and once you have established that relationship I think it is a mistake to take it away.

    I remember when I first met Xzar again in BG2 and I thought great, I loved him and Montaron, this should be fun.

    It wasn't.

    Post edited by Permidion_Stark on
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,099
    Try this if you don't like her but still want to RP an older sibling.

    At spellhold take her into your party. Have the tearful reunion. Immediately have her walk north and try to disarm the wall trap. It can't be disarmed and instantly kills her. Drop her from your party. Imagine Bodhi laughing. Go kill Bodhi for revenge.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142

    A players creative investment is "charname", the writers/developers creative investment is the NPCs. It makes sense that they would want to see their characters carry on if they liked or were proud of the character. Just as players take their charname through the game.

    I think players put a lot of creative investment into the NPCs as well. I know I did with the ones in BG1. They may not have said much but I managed to fill in the blanks for myself based on the clues that were given. I loved having Edwin and Alora together even though they only say a couple of things to each other and I always felt that Kivan and Viconia should either come to blows or get a room, either seemed equally likely.

    That's why I felt it was a mistake on the part of the developers of BG2 to kill off BG1 companion characters off-screen or reintroduce them as bit part players and plot devices. The player has had direct control over the Charname's companions for a whole game and once you have established that relationship I think it is a mistake to take it away.

    I remember when I first met Xzar again in BG2 and I thought great, I loved him Montaron, this should be fun.

    It wasn't.
    Absolutely.

    But players weren't present of course when the development decisions were made.

    I find it interesting to see who was dropped, most I can see why. With the exception strangely enough of Xan although I rarely take him in BG.
    Xan was a strong character, instantly recognisible and must have been a dream to write because of the easy humour of "we're all doomed".
    Give a character a strong trait and what they say and how they react falls into place easily.
    But then they had Edwin available for mage, easier to use for players and easily as strong a character as Xan so perhaps Xan lost his place (for which I am eternally grateful).


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