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Throwing Dagger(s)- Yours and my Guide to a Knife Storm! {Spoiler Warning!}

IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
Hello everyone!
This is just a thread aiming to provide information on how to utilise a Throwing Dagger build and which choices you may want to take.
Spoilers have been boxed up to hide Item Locations and any other plot-related spoilers.
Without further delay, let's get into it, shall we?! Starting off with the highly expected Kensai/Mage Combo!

Kensai/Dual into Mage:

  • +1 Damage and Hit Roll every 3 levels even whilst a Mage
  • +2 Armor Class
  • +1 Speed Factor every 4 levels
  • Grand Mastery
  • Extra Attacks Per Round
  • Spell Buffs/Extra Range options from Mage Book
  • Innate Ability - Kai: All attacks within a 10 second time period deal Maximum damage

Any Fighter

  • Grand Mastery
  • Extra Attacks Per Round
  • Fighter 18/X Strength

Assassin dual into Fighter:

  • +1 to Damage and Hit Rolls
  • Grand Mastery further compliments the Assassin's base +1 Damage and Hit Rolls
  • Poison Weapon
  • APR
  • Higher Backstab multiplier than other Thieves

Archer

(Credits to @DrakeICN)
  • Archer grants +1 to Damage and Hit Rolls every 3 levels, which applies to Throwing Daggers.
  • +4 Damage and Hit Holls Racial bonus
  • Called Shot Innate (Should apply with Throwing Daggers - I will test it later)

Skald:

  • +1 Damage and Hit Rolls
  • Versatile Weapon Arsenal
  • Skald's Unique Bard Song (Stated below)
  • Mage Book up to Level 6 - Enchant Weapon +4 and Improved Haste being amongst the vast list of valuable spells
  • Has access to Use Any Item, increasing your equipment selection
  • Class ability to use Instruments in your Quick Slots

Skald Song is as Follows:
1st Level +2 Damage, Thac0 and AC.
15th changes bonus to +4 Damage, Thac0, AC and adds Immunity to Fear.
20th adds Immunity to Stun and Confusion.

Blade:

  • Versatile Weapon Arsenal
  • Offensive Spin - For the next 4 Rounds, you gain an extra attack per round, +2 to damage and hit rolls, doubled movement rate and all attacks deal maximum damage - Cannot be used with Haste/Improved Haste.
  • Mage Book up to Level 6 - Strength and Luck being amongst the vast list of valuable spells
  • Has access to Use Any Item, increasing your equipment selection
  • Class ability to use Instruments in your Quick Slots

Half-Orc:

  • 19 Strength
  • 19 Constitution - If this is important to you for Fighter/Fighter combinations
  • Access to Fighter Class and Cleric/Thief Combination - The latter is explained in more detail below.
Goes into 20 STR from BG1>BG2 providing you grab a STR Book for your import. This sets you even further ahead of the early game in BG2, might possibly be too strong if you dislike high damage rolls. Perhaps not an amazing choice since there are thee eventual 19, 20 and 21 STR belts. You will, however, get to put those items on other characters if you have them - Having two Brutes with Frost Giant Strength could be enticing to you!

Cleric or Cleric Tyr/Lathander or Cleric Dual Thief or Cleric/Thief Multi-Class:

  • As you otherwise can't use a Dagger on a Cleric, Use Any Item is essential. (Or you can "cheat in" Use Any Item from the beginning.)
  • Turning Undead is a valuable tool for this build as Throwing Daggers are bad against Skeletons
  • I believe you still lose any allocated points in Dagger when you unlock Cleric again.
  • Not a super high concern as Cleric has access to Fighter Thac0 spells and the likes. However this would be more of a ToB start kind of build as it wouldn't be a throwing dagger build until End of Amn following into ToB or ToB start.
  • This will not be an easy class to build but it is a very unique one that I believe is power-creeped in a way that doesn't mess with the difficulty rating of the game

Paladin Kits:

  • Fighter Thac0
  • Fighter 18/X Strength score
  • +2 to all Saving Throws
  • Paladins can turn Undead which will most likely be a very valuable ability for a Throwing Dagger build

  • Cavalier
  • +3 Damage and hit roll against Draconic Creatures
  • Immunity to Charm/Fear/Poison
  • 20% resistance to Fire/Poison
    Despite the fact the Cavalier Kit has "May not use Missile Weapons", they can still use Throwing Daggers!
    Very, very important to note!


  • Inquisitor
  • Dispel Magic and True Sight are very strong abilities you will love to have on a Throwing Dagger build

  • Undead Hunter
  • Immune to Hold and Level Drain
  • Caution, this is perhaps the weakest build of them all as Daggers do not exactly damage Skeletons, meaning the +3 damage and hit rolls to Undead are probably null & void (requires confirmation); However other Undead such as Zombies will take the usual damage alongside the Undead Hunter's +3 bonuses

  • Blackguard
  • Immunity to Level Drain and Fear
  • Poison Weapon is a highly valuable ability for Throwing Daggers
  • Absorb Health - Grants you an interesting sustain mechanic
  • Aura of Despair - Reduces damage and armor class (requires confirmation on the exact range of this tool, if it's close-combat only it will only be effective for backstabbing/Melee damage)

Swashbuckler:

Not an amazing option by any means but can still be done. I personally wouldn't take this as a very worthwhile option unless I really need my Protag to be the allocated Thief of the party/solo play since you have Kensai Single/Dual, Archer or even Blade that achieves a far superior bonus and more enjoyable play-through.
If you're looking for an Underdog or intentionally underpowered original D&D experience, I would say this is definitely for you!

Any Mage/Wild Mage:

Mages have buffs and extra range options, not much else to note. I mean, the spells are great but you can do any sort of build and they all basically work the same - Throw spells, Smack'em still they stop moving or gouge their eyes out from across the field with a Knife - Spells will do the majority of work for a Single Class Mage. Who has time for Knives when you're hurling Fireballs at Goblins?
You could try and limit yourself with a Roleplay where you don't cast Spells/Many Spells/Intentionally gimp your spell selection/slots and have a very squishy, low damage type of build. If you're looking for an extreme challenge then I would recommend doing one or more of the previous to really flesh out a difficult playthrough.

Wild Mage makes this build a very funny play through of somewhat unexpected scenarios, you never know what's going to happen with both your Knife Tossing and your Book of Spells!

Shaman:

I'm currently testing a Shaman throwing dagger build in BG1 and it's so far not... That exciting. Perhaps this is more of a BG2 Class to work with a Throwing Dagger build? Still an option and a seemingly powerful one once you get some Druidic options.

Monk:

  • +2 Movement Rate and +1 every 5 levels
  • +2 Saving Throws vs. All Spells
  • +1 Missile AC every 3 Levels
  • AC of 9 at Class Level 1 and +1 AC every 3 levels
  • At 5th Level becomes Immune to Disease, Slow and Haste
  • At 7th level you gain lay on hands a very nice self-sustain tool
  • At 8th level you gain -1 Speed Factor
  • At 9th level you gain +1 to all saving throws and Immunity to Charm
  • At 11th level you become Immune to Poison
  • At 12th level you gain another -1 to Speed Factor
  • At 14th level you gain 3% Magic Resistance per level, starting at 42% at 14th level
  • At 20th level you become immune to all non-magical weapons
  • Arguably the best Class or one of the bests to play this build with
Sun & Moon Monk will be explained at a later date as I haven't personally tested the interactions. If you have and would like to post, don't hesitate to @ me and I'll add it in with credit to you!

Notable Equipment & Spells

(Work-In-Progress whilst I sift through an array of gears and spells available in both games)

It's a good idea to put a Shield or the (BG1) Bard Exclusive in your Off-Hand Slot for this build.

Baldur's Gate 1: Enhanced Edition

  • Dagger +1 -
    Having 18 CHA and completing the Tutorial Quest: An Errand for Fuller (Located in the Barracks) will net you a +1 Dagger

Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition

Boots

  • The Paws of the Cheetah - Something this build probably could never go without, even if it is perhaps a staple option regardless of what you're playing. They can also be found in quite a few places, such as the following;
    BG1: Drasus in Cloakwood Mines and Lothander if you kill him.
    BG2: Astral Prison, Renal Bloodscalp, Mithral Token Machine and for ToB; Illasera, Saradush - Arcana Archives and Saradush - Tankard Tree


  • Boots of Phasing - Perhaps an unusual recommendation, however, it teleports your character constantly to each opponent that is hostile towards your Party that you can visibly see.

Daggers

  • Boomerang Dagger +2 - If I'm not mistaken the first Throwing Dagger of choice. Magical Throwing Daggers "return to your hand" after every throw (in actuality this just means you can constantly throw it)
    It's located in the top floor of Desolar's Inn within the Bridge District and is held by Captain Dennis alongside his brigade of Mercenaries. These being 1 Cleric, 1 Mage and 3 Fighters - one being Dennis himself. They do not aggro upon stumbling into them, so you are able to get well prepared for the fight ahead. As long as you disable the casters and take advantage of them all being Human with specific strategies, this fight should be simple enough even at the early stages after your fresh Escape.
    Saves you the trouble of constantly running back and forth to buy Daggers and it's +2.


  • Firetooth +3 - Sadly a long journey until this Dagger shows up and most likely the unfortunate next on your list to Dagger Hurling greatness. Though, Enchanted Weapon will be able to carry you to this choice, so do not fret my Friend! It additionally also grants +1d2 Fire Damage.
    It's located in the Underdark, you'll need some gold coins and will require you to purchase it from the weapons merchant in Ust Natha the Drow City


  • Poisoned Daggers - These little things are highly lethal but... Seemingly lacking in quantity. I'm not entirely sure where one finds a consistent large stash of these beauties, hence my focus on taking a Class that grants Poison Weapon. It is an invaluable method of dispatching the likes of Spellcasters and one I prey you won't need to rely on so consistently.

Spells

  • Enchanted Weapon- Changes your Dagger to +3, which generates better hit bonuses. Though I regret to inform you I do not know how it interacts with a stack of Throwing Daggers itself. I pray it works for the entire stack but it's highly likely it only works on a single throw. Whilst the latter really isn't important as you will be using Boomerang Dagger +2 for this build, you may have opted to avoid it and use a stack instead thusly I'd like to account for that.

  • Strength - Did you get a bad roll or succumb to the joint ache of reclicking re-roll a thousand times?
    Then this spell is for you! If your Strength is 18/1-49 or lower then it sets you to 18/50 Fighter Strength.
    If you have 18/50-99 it will be set to 18/00!! Isn't that cool?! The spell lasts for 1 turn per level.

  • Grease - This spell effectively near-roots any target in and around the visuals of the spells, making everyone easy for the pickin'!

  • Luck - Increases Hit and Damage rolls by 1 as well as reducing all damage you receive, magical and otherwise, by 1 point.

  • Glitterdust - Blinds your foes and reduces their AC by -4 points. Also prevents Hostiles staying Invisible.

  • Haste - Gives you +1 Attack Per round and doubles your base movement value, also removes Slow.

  • Hold Person/Undead - Stops your target from doing anything at all making them a totally free kill!

  • Detect Illusion (Spell or Thieving Skill) - Stops those pesky Hostiles from avoiding their just desserts in Knife form!

  • Melf's Minute Meteors - Whilst not a Throwing Dagger, it is still a +5 Dart Weapon and an option you will naturally want to use, be it early on or eventually.

What are your thoughts? Which of these should I/someone use for a Throwing Dagger build? Is there anything I missed? Please let me know! My main reason for posting this is because Throwing Daggers are a pretty niche build I've seen nothing posted about so far. So it's everyone's chance to get in the know-how!

I'm interested to hear what you think, what you like, what you don't like and anything else you can think of!

Sincerely, Cinnamon.

Post edited by Icecreamtub on
JuliusBorisovZaghoulPermidion_StarkMathsorcererAerakarAndreaColombo
«1

Comments

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    You forgot about the obvious one: archer!

    The bonus is added to ANY missile weapon, including daggers.

    Skald should probable be off the list. The bonus is +1 BAB and +1 dmg and that's it.

    Monk why not? I think primarily not about any specific bonus to daggers (but maybe stun works with thrown daggers? I dunno), but off:
    The extra movement speeds - melee fighters cant catch you
    The bonuses to missile AC - ranged fighters have a hard time hitting you
    The 42% magic resistance - mages will have a hard time killing you. And also, the -2 bonus to speed factor makes it easier to interrupt spells
    Dark Moon monk probably works best, as they can detect illusions (again, good against mages) and because they get one mirror image.

    Permidion_StarkIcecreamtub
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    edited October 2017
    Oh I assumed Archers didn't grant bonuses to Throwing Axes/Daggers! Well, that is quite the news. I shall add it in now, thank you! @DrakeICN !

    I really didn't know Throwing Daggers were Missile weapons. Does this mean they count against Missile AC modifiers? I'm gonna need to make an Archer and try this out!

    I mainly added Skald because it's still a bonus and they can use anything, the reason to take a Throwing Dagger build is mostly just because it would be a fully versatile type of character that can switch out and still support between dagger throws, that's all. Bards still have Mage slots to do self/party buffing as well, "don't count Tobin Skalds out!"

    Edit:
    I forgot to mention that, if we're honest about a Skald/Bard in generalised sense for a Party of how many size you choose (bigger being a better argument for this comment):

    There are only so many copies of special weapons and a Bard really isn't going to commonly be running around with the best-of-the best in your Party. (Not accounting a dedicated Bard with Use Any Item, naturally.)
    So Throwing Daggers are a really nice option here - Nobody has to worry about lack of effectiveness in the party or having a nagging sensation that "Hey maybe Keldorn/Minsc could be using this instead". They are also a ranged weapon meaning the Bard can effectively stay nearby for Bard Song and still not be caught in deadly crossfire. It's a Win/Win situation for everybody, really!

    Post edited by Icecreamtub on
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,074
    I found Half-orc dagger throwing shamans to be quite effective, with high dex n str, at least in BG1. Given I have not taken one to BG2 yet due to restartitis but they hit pretty hard, esp. while wandering around in your own Writhin Fog spell, +2 boomerang dagger in BGNPC project, annother +1 throwing dagger in RRebalancing, plus the possibility of a good one for melee being made by the Herbs n Potions mod over at Black Wyrms Lair.

    StummvonBordwehrIcecreamtub
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    edited October 2017
    @Zaghoul I don't run any Mods of any sort so that might be why the difference is upon us ! D;

    Well, except that one I'm supposed to be working on

    Zaghoul
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,386
    I really like this idea. I've never made a character who specialises in throwing knives but I am really tempted to after reading this. Plus there is an exploit in SoD I want to try out . . .

    Grond0ZaghoulAerakarIcecreamtub
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    Hehe, that's great news !

    I love Throwing Dagger builds but given how limited the knowledge is surrounding this sort of build (at least as far as I've seen), my knowledge is also super limited! Perhaps if I can confirm enough suspicions maybe I can have this post allocated as the go-to guide for Throwing Daggers? ^-^

    Welcome aboard the Throwing Daggers Club, Friend! <3

    Exploit? Which one?! @Permidion_Stark

  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    I'm busy reformatting the post to be along the lines of a Guide - Any advice on cleaning it up is well appreciated and I won't be offended!

    Thanks for reading and I hope you all enjoy <3

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,411

    I'm busy reformatting the post to be along the lines of a Guide - Any advice on cleaning it up is well appreciated and I won't be offended!

    Thanks for reading and I hope you all enjoy <3 </p>

    An advice: don't overload the post with formatting (spaces, for example). Just look at the OP here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/61569/luck-what-it-is-and-how-it-works/p1 - the text is easily readable and gives tons of useful information.

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,386

    Exploit? Which one?! @Permidion_Stark

    I don't want to give the game away but if you ever meet something that is . . .

    . . very big and very green . . .


    . . try throwing a knife at it.

    Aerakar
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    @JuliusBorisov How is the post now? I made the example changes you suggested!

    Grond0JuliusBorisov
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Out of curiosity, does the single weapon style apply to throwing weapons?

    Otherwise, you probably want to pick up a huge shield.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,895

    Exploit? Which one?! @Permidion_Stark

    I don't want to give the game away but if you ever meet something that is . . .

    . . very big and very green . . .


    . . try throwing a knife at it.
    It's not what I would call an "exploit" since it's very obviously added to the game by the devs and it's working just as intended. Nonetheless, it's a very interesting and kinda funny sequence that everyone
    should try at least once.

    Regarding best knife-chuckers, read this thread for loads and loads of details:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/63666/a-comparison-of-ranged-attackers-in-bg2
    ..and this for some more kensai info:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41022/ranged-kensai-is-awesome/p1


    My personal opinion, but I am no expert and I do not min/max:

    Archers: If you allow your build to use daggers most times but also arrows some times, archers is good since they can use Gesens or Firetooth for the +4 enemies. Free points in dualweild is niche, but using a throwing dagger in mainhand and using an APR weapon in offhand gives you +2 APR which mitigates one of the archers main drawbacks, it's lack of GM in melee. Ofc this is only applicable if you don't go 100% knife throwing. Archers levels more slowly than fighters as well. Something to keep in mind, they get their bonuses from every 3 levels less than kensais.

    Kensai: The best chucker IMHO since they get GM, the added damage and Kai. Can be Halforc for 19 STR going to 20 in BG1. Noone can beat their pure raw damage output, but of course their survivability is lower than other classes or combination of classes due to no armor and can't wear the gloves of extr.specialization (+1 THAC0 +2 damage EARLY in BG1). The lack of these gloves actually makes the Kensai not that good in BG1, but in BG2 when they start to reach like level 15 their added damage outweighs that.

    Vanilla fighter or M->F: Also good since you get higher AC than kensai, but less damage. If you go low level mage dual into fighter you can use scrolls for the few enemies that you can't beat otherwise or use wands when your knives are inadequate. GM in daggers and fighter STR make you do enough damage to kill most things quick enough so that kensai added dmg almost seem like overkill through most of the game. I like this build a lot since it's so versatile. Only drawback is that you have to be human obviously. If you have some patience, going for level 4 spells for Stoneskin, invis, etc before moving to Fighter makes you very versatile. That's level 7 which still make it possible to reach level 8 fighter in BG1 (basilisks -> sirens -> ankhegs and you're good to go).

    F/M: I think F/Ms make decent chuckers as well since they can buff themselves up a bit to survive better and do some more damage. They can also add things like MMM to their arsenale when +2 daggers don't cut it. Personally though, I'd not make a F/M a pure chucker since the above tw

    Blackguard: Poison weapon, aura, some spells and fighter THAC0 and STR. Good, versatile, but ultimately not as good as the others IMHO. Poison used to be better in previous versions.

    So, IMHO, Kensai or M->F are the best and Archer being close. Depends on if you have a party to defend you or not. If not, go for some versatility and survivibility (M->F), otherwise go for Kensai or Archer.

    Cheers!

    JuliusBorisovAerakar
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    edited October 2017
    No, as far as I've seen from playing this build it doesn't.
    Unless you meant when you switch to Melee via the default F2 Key/Slot. In which case, yes, it does apply - As you're using a Melee Weapon instead of the Missile version. However that only works with the magical daggers and not the stacks of Throwing Daggers.
    @DrakeICN

  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    @Skatan

    Do you mean when you wield both of them as their Melee versions? Since using Firetooth/Boomerang as a Missile does not allow you to visually dual-wield. You can dual wield when both Daggers are using Melee, I also do not see where Dual Wielding would be useful as an Archer. Any ideas where it would reap the most reward for switching to DW?

    I think on the note of Kensai it might be a joint for 1st between Kensai & Monk for Throwing Daggers, honestly. I agree Archer is very close by but a clear 2nd/3rd to the previous options. Kensai and Monk do some really nifty stuff. Depends which you value more - Raw damage or high mobility with the ability to also eventually start avoiding arrows naturally. Being immune to poison and having Magic Resistance is also helpful as well.

    I think Blackguard with this kind of build is more like a slightly more specialised Assassin or Bard because of how it uses a little of this and that. It's biggest selling point, honestly, is the combination of Poison Weapon + Fighter bases without the need to go through Assassin>Fighter/Fighter>Assassin but you lose the mechanic of high backstabs for hitting enemies with an AC Penalty instead. Naturally nothing really competes, theoretically, with extremely high backstabbing - However, realistically, you'd probably get yourself into a pickle trying to do that as a Backline Unit. I mean, it's not all that difficult if the opposing Mobs have no Invisibility cleansing spells/innates.

    It's been a pleasure responding, hope to hear back from you soon~

    JuliusBorisovAerakar
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,895

    @Skatan

    Do you mean when you wield both of them as their Melee versions? Since using Firetooth/Boomerang as a Missile does not allow you to visually dual-wield. You can dual wield when both Daggers are using Melee, I also do not see where Dual Wielding would be useful as an Archer. Any ideas where it would reap the most reward for switching to DW?

    My first comment on archers was about using the firetooth xbow for its ability to hit +4 enemies. My second comment was that archers can still use melee weapons very efficiently since their drawback of not being able to specialize (or GM) in weapons to use non-speed weapons in the offhand and still reach 4 APR can be off-set by using the boomerang knife in your main hand (and later on, the fire tooth dagger) and having belm or kundane in your off hand so that you can throw on enemies with main hand and if they get close, you can quickly set your main hand to melee and then the added APR from the offhand is applied and you get +1 APR from the boomerang dagger in melee and the +1 APR to the main hand from the speed weapon in the off hand, resulting in +2 APR in total. Add in level 7 and 13 APRs for being a warrior class you get 5 APR without gloves or anything.

    Base APR = 1
    level 7 ½APR
    level 13 ½APR
    Base APR = 2
    +1 from boomerang in melee
    +1 from off hand
    +1 to mainhand from off hand speed weapon
    You still hit only as a +2 weapon though, which is weak, but with Fire tooth dagger +3, that is still pretty good for most of SoA and even in most of ToB as well.

    And as said, Gesens and Firetooth xbow can then be used to kill enemies immune to lower level enchantments.

    I've never tried a monk focusing on throwing daggers. That's quite interresting actually. I like to play weird class/strategy combinations, so I have tried monks going for melee wielding weapons before but not knife throwing.

    AerakarIcecreamtubFenghoang
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,411

    How is the post now? I made the example changes you suggested!

    It reads much easier now. Well done!

    DreadKhan
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    @JuliusBorisov

    Always looking for improvements~
    So any other suggestions are appreciated! Thanks~
    I've got a long way to go in how one actually formats on a Forum, which anyone can see for sure. My idea of neat and tidy is apparently a lot of people's idea of finicky, unnecessary time wasting formatting. I think I end up spending about 1-2 hours per main thread... And that time is 90%+ of me formatting everything.
    >.<


    @Skatan

    I know you were talking about Firetooth +4 & Gesen's Bow, I'm just asking how Dual Wield fits into a Ranged Build - It's an option that you can take due to the extra versatility of magical throwing daggers having a melee alternative in the F2 Slot. I assumed (wrongly) when you brought up Dual Wielding that's what you were looking at and was wondering where it would be of good use in any fight from BG1 to BG2:ToB.

    Enchant Weapon gives +4 iirc and there are enough NPCs/Choices to obtain that on any party you pick unless you go Solo - But if you went Solo with this build you'd probably be running Kensai/Mage anyway and would still grab Enchant Weapon ASAP.
    So the +2/+3 on the weapon itself is probably less of a real concern I'd think of in the theory to real scenario. So I personally don't think you'd need to switch out to either of those weapons unless you really need fire damage to kill certain enemies or Electric from Gesen's to do it's Anti-Mage approach (Which is covered by Poison Weapon for Mages if you have it or Poison Throwing Daggers stashed ahead of time).

    I mean, it's still certainly an option, of course. Just the build is kinda suppose to focus on having Throwing Daggers, even as limited as they are. Naturally, if you have the points, GM in Xbow/Shortbow will go a long way with the bonuses from Archer by the time you've obtained GM after your slot into Daggers.

    I'd definitely recommend it! Monk gives you all the options and weeds out a few of the problem areas that this build might face in a play through. Monks are fun in general for me, I just end up never using Unarmed because the animation is very... Awkward, haha! >.< I can't focus after the giggles I get from watching the punch and kicks!

    JuliusBorisovAerakar
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,812
    Just for some formatting advice, the <"br"> and <"hr"> tags are always good for keeping a large post orderly. <"br"> is a clear line break and <"hr"> is a line, it's useful for separating different sections. Just remove the quotemarks for use, doesn't require a closing tag.

    Grond0Aerakar
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,386
    So I decided to have go at a character who specialises in throwing daggers and made myself a human Kensai, a class I've never played before. I lucked out on my STR roll and got 18/00, which means she is an absolute beast who can one-shot most of the enemies you run into at low level.



    I'm thinking about dualling her to a Thief at some point but at the moment I am having too much fun laying waste to my enemies with a weapon I don't normally bother carrying.

    I wasn't keen on the idea of dualling to a Mage so I maxed out Charisma instead, which meant I got a free +1 Dagger.

    Fuller gives it to you in Candlekeep as a reward for fetching some crossbow bolts if you have got CHA 18. He says his father once backstabbed a Hobgoblin with it. So far I have managed to chunk a couple of them by using it to front-stab them.


    At this point in the game my Kensai feels like the most over-powered character I have ever played. However, I think this as much to do with her strength as anything else. I hadn't realised that STR bonuses apply to throwing daggers so wasn't prepared for just how much damage they were going to do. I think it only took me three hits to take down an Ogre.

    ZaghoulIcecreamtubAerakarFenghoang
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    Yeah the Throwing Daggers scale with your STR. So an 18/00 or 19 is insane at once you hit 4th level with the base Kensai boosts + level increases.

    Glad you're having so much fun stabbing your foes! I await to see more content from you<3

    (Also that portrait is gorgeous and I dig the name! I have a character that is eerily similiar that I imagine to also look like that portrait)

    Permidion_StarkAerakarFenghoang
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,386
    @Icecreamtub

    It's actually a portrait of Imoen by an artist named NixxiCal. I found it in this thread https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/44895/custom-npc-portraits-masterthread-spoilers-obviously/p1 by @Buttercheese.

    I'm glad you like the name. I'm not very good at thinking up names so I tend to use the same ones over and over again. Holly the Lost used to be a Ranger a long time ago but it seemed to fit with my image of a Kensai facing the world alone so I brought it back into use.

  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    edited October 2017
    @Permidion_Stark

    I knew I recognised the portrait from somewhere. Ugh why is Imoen so cute, she's like perfect and she was generated from a quick assembly. How they manage to make such an amazingly peppy, yet pessimistic character so well >.<

    Well, it's a really good name so you should be extra proud of it then ! I think it really suits that portrait of Imoen, you've got an eye for taste~~

    I try to rename my characters as much as possible but for a while name I've made a rather big folder of variations of my character Elysium... One of my multiplayer playthroughs I accidentally typo'd her name as Elsyium and didn't notice until I got into our BG2 run LOL!

    Edit: If it's not too much to ask of you, would you mind sending me any Screenshots of your Kensai run with 18/00 strength for however long you play it and whatever you end up grabbing? Would like to make an IMGUR folder for Knife build classes that I can link to this main thread.

    Edit: My internet cut out yesterday when I tried to edit my previous comment but in regards to the last spoiler tag you posted:
    Wow that's really cool, I had no idea 18 CHA got you a +1 Dagger! I'll have to note that down for future plays on BG1! Thanks! I guess I'll go ahead and note it down as a spoiler in the main thread, too!

    Permidion_StarkSkatan
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    edited October 2017
    @Skatan

    I have made a grave mistake - Enchanted Weapon has been nerfed to an enchant 3, making my entire enchant+4 comment null and void. I'm not aware of a throwing dagger +4 currently and thusly you might actually have to wind up switching here and there between Gesen's/Firetooth+4(Xbow)/Melf's Meteors.

    I'm really sorry!


    Edit: Man this is a bummer, losing +4 Enchant kinda makes a few fights with Throwing Daggers really difficult if you don't have levels to grant other profieciencies or your Class lacks multiple invested points... The +3 to Boomerang Dagger is still handy and better than nothing, so my eggs are not totally deliciously scrambled just yet! I can also just craft a +4 Dagger and Mod it into the game and then pin it to this Thread as well if worst-comes-to-the-worst.

    Gonna have to look around and see what else is lying around and if there have been adjustments/new equipment somewhere. (Still don't know what the entire list of new EE equips are despite living inside the Near Infinity Engine most of my days lol)

    SkatanPermidion_Stark
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,895
    @Icecreamtub, don't apologize, there's absolutely no need. I read your comment before quickly but didn't have time to respond (damn work stealing all my hours! Lunch break now tho).

    Yes, I too believe enchant is to +3 and not 4. That's why I brought up Gesens/Firet xbow which has been an archer's regular "go to" weapon of choice for later stages of the game since there are not enough high level arrows or bolts. This is the same scenario that knife chuckers face.

    So I guess my comment is that whatever solution you choose depends on what self-restrictions you put on yourself and your charname, do you allow switching to non-daggers for the few fights where it's needed? Or if you have some mage levels or UAT, add in MMM or other spells? It comes down to your choice of playstyle.

    As I see it, there's two things lacking in the full saga; a returning non/low-enchanted dagger for BG1 and a higher level enchanted one (or something that can create a few, like the cloak of stars for darts) for late SoA/ToB. I'm just too lazy to only use consumable throwing daggers 'cept the poison ones which makes me stick to melee in BG1 (or I eekeeper in the +2 boomerang but it's too good for early game).

    I really wish I knew how to mod without being forced to pour in the hours needed to learn! XD hehe..

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,895
    On a different side-note, just to test I eekeepered in the boomerand dagger in the offhand weapons slot once on a F/T to see what happened with the +APR from throwing daggers, and it gave the character another APR just like a speed weapon. I'm not 100% it gave the APR to the mainhand, I didn't look so closely

    But the interresting thing here is that the animation and the attack roll was for throwing, from the off hand! (I got the penalty to attack rolls from using ranged in melee as well)
    Made me want to test what happens if I put in two boomerang daggers, one in each hand, will it trigger dual-throwing? Would have been so fricking epic to throw daggers from both left and right hand on something like a bard/blade, roleplaying a circus artist being a master of knife throwing. Should have had his own tent in the Nashkel carnival even throwing daggers at damsels strapped to a rotating target board. :P

    Permidion_StarkGrond0ZaghoulAerakar
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,074
    Skatan said:

    @Icecreamtub, don't apologize, there's absolutely no need. I read your comment before quickly but didn't have time to respond (damn work stealing all my hours! Lunch break now tho).

    Yes, I too believe enchant is to +3 and not 4. That's why I brought up Gesens/Firet xbow which has been an archer's regular "go to" weapon of choice for later stages of the game since there are not enough high level arrows or bolts. This is the same scenario that knife chuckers face.

    So I guess my comment is that whatever solution you choose depends on what self-restrictions you put on yourself and your charname, do you allow switching to non-daggers for the few fights where it's needed? Or if you have some mage levels or UAT, add in MMM or other spells? It comes down to your choice of playstyle.

    As I see it, there's two things lacking in the full saga; a returning non/low-enchanted dagger for BG1 and a higher level enchanted one (or something that can create a few, like the cloak of stars for darts) for late SoA/ToB. I'm just too lazy to only use consumable throwing daggers 'cept the poison ones which makes me stick to melee in BG1 (or I eekeeper in the +2 boomerang but it's too good for early game).

    I really wish I knew how to mod without being forced to pour in the hours needed to learn! XD hehe..

    Well their are mods that cover it, at least on the low enchanted end for BG. BGNPCproject has the boomerang dagger +2(but only 1-4 damage) and RR&SS add another +1 returning dagger to use.
    Neither is overpowering and add quite a bit to the arsenal of those of use who 'love us a good ol dagger'
    They also add one that prevents fear and charm but that is a melee version, but should be mentioned for an imp. dagger build.
    As for daggers running low, I use the tweak recovering weapons option that can be set at various percentages.
    But A simple add in weapon mod would be nice, yep. :)

  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 671
    I am playing a thief now that used throwing daggers as his only ranged weapon in BG 1 (and now in BG2) with the mods @Zaghoul mentioned. Those daggers are +1 and do 1-4 damage in BG1, so are not overpowered by any means and are really a quality of life tweak IMHO.

    I just love the throwing dagger animation!

    Zaghoul
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,386

    @Permidion_Stark

    I knew I recognised the portrait from somewhere. Ugh why is Imoen so cute, she's like perfect and she was generated from a quick assembly. How they manage to make such an amazingly peppy, yet pessimistic character so well >.<

    Well, it's a really good name so you should be extra proud of it then ! I think it really suits that portrait of Imoen, you've got an eye for taste~~

    I try to rename my characters as much as possible but for a while name I've made a rather big folder of variations of my character Elysium... One of my multiplayer playthroughs I accidentally typo'd her name as Elsyium and didn't notice until I got into our BG2 run LOL!

    Edit: If it's not too much to ask of you, would you mind sending me any Screenshots of your Kensai run with 18/00 strength for however long you play it and whatever you end up grabbing? Would like to make an IMGUR folder for Knife build classes that I can link to this main thread.

    Edit: My internet cut out yesterday when I tried to edit my previous comment but in regards to the last spoiler tag you posted:

    Wow that's really cool, I had no idea 18 CHA got you a +1 Dagger! I'll have to note that down for future plays on BG1! Thanks! I guess I'll go ahead and note it down as a spoiler in the main thread, too!
    My Kensai has now reached Level 7:






    Her equipment is

    Dagger of Venom +2
    Greenstone Amulet
    Ring of Protection +1
    Girdle of Piercing (or whatever they call it these days?)
    Boots of Grounding
    Ring of Free Action
    Cloak of Displacement

    She is also carrying Heart of the Golem +2 and Xan's Moonblade. Sadly she can't use the latter but since she is into daggers I thought she would like to have it in her collection (I always assumed it was a sword but the proficiency is in daggers in EE).

    It has actually been very easy so far. She has only had to use a few Healing potions and one Antidote. I decided not to allow her to use any other potions so she can't pre-buff for fights. This meant I had to avoid fighting any magic users until she was 6th level because if she fails her saving throw against Horror she needs lots of Hit Points to soak up the damage until the spell wears off. So far all of the fights against mages have been disastrous but she has just managed to survive them. The fight against Tarnesh was actually quite funny because my 6th level 18/00 fighter was running round terrified while one lowly guard killed Tarnesh for me (and then strolled off as if it was all in a day's work).

    I'm enjoying the run and I'm really getting into the whole Kensai thing so much so that I am actually going to start again right from the beginning. This time I'm going to have very strict rules for myself:

    No potions (not even healing or antidote)
    Only sleep in the wilderness
    Only one set of equipment to be carried (she can change what she uses as she goes along but she won't, for example, switch belts before a fight)

    I'm not sure how far she will get but I'll keep you posted on my progress.

    IcecreamtubAerakar
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,812
    Is Holly secretly onr of Imoen's dopplegangers? She looks just like her!

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