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What improvements IWD needs

RavandelRavandel Member Posts: 55
Hey, I was thinking how to make IWD better. Its good game but at the same time I see a lot of problems with it. I made this post to gather some ideas that future mods can implement, so go on with your thoughts and propositions.

Here are my thoughts and problems I see:

Problem 1.
Each run looks too similar to another in case of items. I mean, you go to X, you are guaranteed item Y, you go to Z and there is random item spawn, but there is 75% chances for for crap and 25% for good item, so you do save-reload method before entering until you get that one item that interests you. Some people completely resign and mod random loot to be 100%. Also some types of weapons are strictly better than others i.e. adding proficiency to Katanas is pointless because there aren't much of them ingame, and AFAIK best Katanas are worse that best weapons from other groups.

Solution
Add more diversity to items and make loot more randomized, even make some items in shop random.

How I see this is that each run would have different items. You won't know if best item in this run would be 2h Axe dropped by some enemy, or maybe dagger in chest or something else in shop (same with other items like armors, shields etc.). So you need to plan diversity in group, not "I must have 1 char using morning stars because I will have guaranteed best morning star in game anyway" and same with other chars. For this to be kind of balanced a bit you need some predetermined items in shops or random pools like only random axe, only random sword in order to not get run with 0 long swords entire game for example.


Problem 2.
Not enough end game content and too fast/dull character progress. I finished my last full run with 6x single classed party and half of the team had lvl 30 already. But still I felt like items I had weren't great compared to IWD2 Hof for example. Kinda game ended too fast, and higher character lvls brought nothing except more hp and some spells (I know about some mods fixing this but still I am mentioning this). Also HoF mode doesn't bring much there because items are the same AFAIK. In IWD2 it worked like this: at the end of the game you had party around lvl 17 (max was 30) and HoF mode brought a lot of new upgraded items. There were use for +5 weapons and other really awesome items because enemies are much better also.
Maybe its me but I am finding HoF 2nd runs boring. I would want to see more end game content than same content with only enemies that have boosted stats. So boring...

Solution
*IWD is lacking end game content where you will need high lvl equipment and enemies will be much harder. Also I would really want to see slower character progression but where lvls matter more than +hp.


Problem 3.
Problems with ranged using ammunition. In my last run I had ranger using bows until I get returing axe. He used this weapon until the end of game because I don't need to go to the town for ammunition and its +2 for free (if you calculate cost for +2 arrows you can see how bad it is compared to returing axe).

Solution
Add quivers and other items "of plenty" which provides infinite ammo or something like "returing arrow". In IWD2 there is a lot of returing items (even 2h weapon) but in IWD1 there isn't many. I would like to see "Quiver of plenty +5" which is ultra rare but still existing. Make more returing items but not guaranteed in run as I proposed in ideas above.


Problem 4.
More interesting enemies and more bosses. As OlvynChuru mentioned in other post, enemies in IWD are dumb and you can easily win with them by kiting them around. Enemies need to be harder in case you couldn't kite them around and win, like more ranged abilites or better AI.

Solution
Improving abilities of enemies. There were tactic mod for IWD2 where i.e. caster or ranged enemies ran off from you if your character came too close to them, it kinda looked like they kiting you. Also about bosses, Sarevok57 made pretty interesting mod with a lot of new enemies and bosses (but sadly its rather mod for personal use, not weidu so not really compatible with other mods).


Thats my thoughts and opinions. If you have something more to add or disagree I would like to hear your thoughts on that matter :)
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Comments

  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 426
    All right, as I am now more than prone towards implementing my mod alongside Auril's Bane for IWD EE, I am willing to take such ideas and implement them.

    Obviously, as long as they are aimed towards not upsetting the balance of the game, feasible and within the rules of the game.

    Now to address your issues:

    Problem 1. Adding more items is not a problem. In my mod I implemented an idea of no empty chests. Even added junk items in them. Random items in stores however is not feasible. It has been tried before, but the problem is that if get past of crashes it would also lead to having different random item each time you access the store...
    Some items are also best to have as they are inherent to the story. Just as an example, Kresselack's Sword and Armor, Joril's Axe, Elven Chainmails, the various items built by the dwarf-elven alliance and clearly items that belong to a certain place due to their description (the various items and weapons belonging to barbarians found in tombs on Burial Island).

    What my mod also did. I added one Adventurer's Robe for mages in Pomab's Emporium. Single class mages have no robes in Prologue and I felt adding one was a good idea.

    Problem 2

    That's the problem with playing on insane. The game is originally balanced on playing in normal difficulty. Initially before HoW, playing on very easy on insane did not grant double xp. As such, I'd recommend playing the game on normal difficulty. Obviously, making enemies harder to kill is not hard, so the game could also be difficult and with less xp awards.

    One thing that I wanted to add, but never got around was something similar to IWD2 HoF. Add merchants that only show up in HoF mode that sell top-end power items. Also, I had already planned on including the weapons and items you can find described in Temple of Tempus on display, on the assumption that those were looted by Pomab (so that you can find them on his possession after you defeat him).

    Problem 3

    Ranged weaponry has another issue compared to the original IWD1. Enemies move too fast. In the original game, you could fire 2 arrows into an orc before he got close to you. Now is just 1.
    The other issue is that implementing returning weapons had a very big issue. There was only one weapon who did that, the one from level 5 of Dragon's Eye. HoW added a returning dagger found in the final area.
    The problem was that the game was not originally capable of translating properly returning weapons. I tried to add returning darts from IWD2, but ran into issues when it came to adding speed (it lead to at least 3 attacks/round. Also, when trying to add Azuredge from BG2, it dealt crushing damage to undead, as the only weapon effect that disrupts undead in IWD1 was the one from Three White Dove mace.
    I think it might be possible in the baldurized EE to properly implement returning weapons and also launcher that don't need ammo.

    Problem 4

    The AI is a very big issue which got moved from BG2 to EE and now to IWD1 EE. The original game enemies were smarter. They had the so called "yelling" effect which made it impossible to draw enemies one after another. They called friends to help them. In current EE this is a mess, sometimes it looks to be working, other times it doesn't and some times acts weirdly like for example on level 2 of Dragon's Eye where you are attacked by a quarter of the enemies on that level the moment one sees you.

    Auril's Bane kind of added more interesting twists, as it featured some additional quests with some different enemies. And let me just put it here, playing on insane was really insane in Auril's Bane, as Grog added in Vale of Shadows some enforced skeletons (stronger version of the common ones) and also skeleton archers with Arrows of Detonation.

    I also added harder Yxunomei, she was immune to fire, 50% magic resistance and immune to weapons below +3.

    And my one of my final implements was true dragon Icasaracht, where I added HPs and THAC0 as it fit a dragon in PnP 2E rules.

    Note.

    Things that were added by Auril's Bane and I am going to try to implement them in EE.

    Extra spells. Spell like Mordekainen Golden Revelation, Lightning blast, Mordekainen Great Magic Missiles etc
    Bonus spells for mages and bard from having extra Int.
    Extra items (nothing overpowered) available to be found in chests and in stores.
    His kits were added as exported characters. If it all possible, I might consider adding those as well.
    There were 2 exported characters who if added provided an extra interesting quest in the game. I don't know if implementing that is going to be possible.
  • RavandelRavandel Member Posts: 55
    Thanks for response!

    Ad. 1
    I have tried random items in stores already and it doesn't ended well (invisible item 99999999 invalid or something).
    About other things you mentioned I agree. Solutions mentioned in this post are a bit too general. With more details random items would be segregated into pools. Like specific lore friendly random items designed for each location, like you mentioned.

    And I agree that some items should be guaranteed like Kresselack's Sword and other things but I also see available improvement there. There could be in example 5 variations of Kresselack's Sword, lets say 3 slightly different, and 2 more "rare" variations. Its up to modder how it will looks like and differ from each other but something like that wouldn't be game breaking and could bring a bit more flavour to each run.



    Ad. 2

    Only game which implemented HoF mode back in old times was IWD2, and it was done properly with item changes etc. IWD1 HoF mode with new items, and maybe more powerful enemies (or new ones, a lot of unused models) would be nice addition. But as I mentioned earlier, I really miss optional quests where you are going to new area i.e. Goblin/Orc fortress (like in IWD2), or Dragon's Lair etc. and fight hordes of enemies with bosses at the end. IWD1 is missing for me like more dragons to slay, or other creatures which are rare in IWD1 (animals for example, in vanilla I remember fight with animals only in Dorn's Deep Poquerin encounter). IWD1 is just too short for me and lacking some encounters.



    Ad. 3

    Didn't know about that problems, but maybe now its doable on EE). But anyway returning "ammo" or "something" of plenty would be nice there. I know some people did something like that, but I would like to see this expanded to Quiver of Fire Arrows, or returning Arrow +5 (same for bolts/bullets). Of course it should be balanced, like you can buy normal ammo in Conland Shop, and +1 ammo in Severed Hand, then rest will be rare random drop and maybe 1-3 things like that overall in run.



    Ad. 4

    Also there is exploit with exploding skull/priest ward (that lvl 3) where you don't see enemies but cast that trap spells near their spot on map. This will explode and hit them while not pulling them. You then rest and repeat as many times as you can.



    Thank you for sharing your thoughts Redrake and I am looking forward for Auril's Bane remastered. :)

    Sadly IWD1 doesn't have much modding focus.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Ravandel said:

    Sadly IWD1 doesn't have much modding focus.

    Some of us are very focused on IWD; fortunately my good stuff (Fixpack, Unfinished Business and Item Upgrade) got incorporated into IWDEE already.
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 426
    Some items could be re-created from IWD2. Like Doom blade (which includes a story about Kresselack) or Root of Kuldahar. And of course, wait until you see the modified items I made in my own non-weidu mod (but those can be easily batched into a weidu).

    IWD1 had the first HoF, but it was just extra enemies and harder difficulty. IWD2 HoF truly was a master in that regard. It forces the player to prepare for HoF, even in the normal run through the game. You need to pick a cleric that focuses a lot on defensive spells or summons. In other words Morninglords are not as good in HoF. You need a Watcher or a Painbearer or a Banite or a Demarch (for Executioner Eyes).

    What I would like to implement in IWD EE would be different rewards for the Tiernon weapon of Gloomfrost. A weapon for the barbarian (maybe a 2h axe), one for the sorceror (a quarterstaff) and for monk some bracers that deal frost damage.

  • RavandelRavandel Member Posts: 55
    Redrake said:


    IWD1 had the first HoF, but it was just extra enemies and harder difficulty.

    Ok my bad then, I didn't remember much HoF from that mode. And about items from IWD2 I was thinking about that also, got installed both games.
    CamDawg said:


    Some of us are very focused on IWD; fortunately my good stuff (Fixpack, Unfinished Business and Item Upgrade) got incorporated into IWDEE already.

    Yes but I am comparing amount of IWD mods/modders to BG saga. I know there are some great modders here too :)
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    One of my hopes for IWD-in-BG2 was that moving the game to a more accessible modding platform would spur modders to build content for it. After all, we saw a pretty good rush of new BG content mods after BGT/Tutu were released. Unfortunately, it did not come to pass.
  • GodGod Member Posts: 1,150
    @CamDawg
    Rumour has it that there is going to be an IWD-in-EET, with at least partial IWD2-in-EET. Many people are looking forward to it, perhaps in vain, but there is always hope.
  • RavandelRavandel Member Posts: 55
    OlvynChuru sounds great, but how you plan to balance this for lvl 1 party? New skills are great idea, but I am a bit worried about other aspect, the amount of damage. This might be only me but I really didn't like getting one shotted from everything so you NEED to kite or do some other crazy non standard tactic (its nothing wrong with that, but I don't think using this EACH fight is good). In that case defense items become meaningless because you don't want to even engange in melee combat because you get wrecked.

    I have tried tactic mod for IWD2, and it wasn't really balanced for me, i.e. casters had a lot of protection spells so you were missing 95% of times. But if you landed 1 good dispel magic, fight was over. But one thing that I liked there was ranged enemies, which kited you if you came too close to them.

    I would really like to see something like that:
    *some enemies could be kited
    *most enemies could be kited only if you are using slow etc. but in most cases this wouldn't be most effective thing to do vs them
    *some enemies if kited will i.e. cast really powerful spells or use something you really don't want to be used on your team, so you will NEED at least 1 character tanking them in melee
    *either modded armors or more armor with % resistance, because AC here is really stupid mechanic imo, your main tank rushes to fight -> miss, miss, miss -> he gets one shotted. Its like naked guy who is dodging attacks, not full armor warrior who should get hit a lot but for low amount.

    Thats my 3 cents to this. And ye, I know about armor fix mod but not everyone is using it.
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,076
    edited October 2017
    @Ravandel I actually have plans for how I will make it fair to start at level 1. I have three ideas, of which I may implement any number:

    *Having characters roll 8-20 for stats (as in Dark Sun) rather than 3-18.
    *Giving the party 30000 experience at the start of the game (divided among the party), so that a party of six will start at level 3 (if single-classed) and a solo character will start at an even higher level.
    *Giving the party a large amount of gold at the start of the game and placing plenty of cool magic items at Pomab's (at the very least I would need to add level 2 scrolls for the mages if they're starting with the extra experience).

    I don't plan for the prologue to be too difficult, but the game will get much harder once you reach the Vale of Shadows.

    Since this mod isn't actually HoF mode, it can be played on any difficulty setting. My intent is for it to be played on Core Rules, where it will still be very difficult but enemies won't be one-shotting your characters. Also, not all enemies will do more damage than they do normally; some will be empowered in other ways.
    Post edited by OlvynChuru on
  • RavandelRavandel Member Posts: 55
    Seems fair then and interesting. Looking forward for it.
  • inethineth Member Posts: 707
    edited October 2017
    CamDawg said:

    One of my hopes for IWD-in-BG2 was that moving the game to a more accessible modding platform would spur modders to build content for it. After all, we saw a pretty good rush of new BG content mods after BGT/Tutu were released. Unfortunately, it did not come to pass.

    There are now a few mods adding new items, and Afaaq the Djinni Companion and Sarevok57's Mega Mod add new encounters...
    But yeah, there's a dearth of actual quest mods for IWD:EE.

    But the improved moddability and BG2 compatibility was still worth it, IMO, for giving us access to so many high-quality kit mods, tweak mods, rule-changing mods (think Scales of Balance), etc.

    And who knows, new quest mods might still happen... the IE modding community is still alive, after all.
    @LavaDelVortel once hinted he might have something planned.
    And I myself have been dreaming of adding either a quest, or even the other Kuldahar districts (Athkatla-style) which should exist based on the lore, if only my limited spare time and artistic skills didn't make it implausible... :'(
  • LavaDelVortelLavaDelVortel Member Posts: 2,708
    Uhm, I hinted and released 2 mods: Dusky NPC and LavaIt!-IWD item pack
  • Armanz92Armanz92 Member Posts: 53
    I'm a hardcore player, at least in the past, so I'll gladly add my 2 cents to the discussion:

    Problem 1:
    I disagree with the point you make for the most part, although I *would* like to see new items and a greater item diversity in general. There's a couple of item types and weapon types that are underrepresented and some fresh items wouldn't hurt for sure.
    Stuff like katanas only got added in the EE so that's not a basegame issue, really, although the game tends to have a couple of items that are generally better to focus on (but it's the same in BG2, really).
    The random loot is awesome imho and adds to the replayability. A couple of items being simply bad for the reason that the same item pool has an objectively better item (TotFG Studded Leather Armor +1 has 2 alternatives which are also +1 but have additional boni, Dragon's Eye beginning has a Morning Star +1 with confusion but also one with additional chance of electrical damage [while still having the confusion chance], stuff like that) definitely is an issue that needs to be adressed, but for the most part I find the different items to be alright. Most of the pools have at least 2 useful items.
    What I would like is for Conlan to have some actually useful gear, though. The basegame items are mostly very bad for their respective prices. By the time you get the money to buy them you have gear that is as good or better.
    The expansion gear is either enemy type specific, so really only useful if you have trouble with a certain enemy type. Or it has no effect +2/+3 weapons, which I find boring and uneffective.

    Problem 2:

    Don't really have a qualified opinion on this since I'm not a fan of HoF mode (the concept, not the implementation). I actually never tried it in IWD (because of the implementation style, though).

    Problem 3:

    Lack of ammo can be annoying but I feel that this is rightfully implemented into the game, since Bows are super strong in the game. Get a Half Elf Ranger (or with the EE an Archer, which is insanely OP) and you will rip through so many enemies.

    Problem 4:

    Word.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    Armanz92 said:


    What I would like is for Conlan to have some actually useful gear, though. The basegame items are mostly very bad for their respective prices. By the time you get the money to buy them you have gear that is as good or better.

    This is the problem I have with stores in games in general.

    Mayor of small town: "Look out! The town is being overrun by the undead! Flee for your lives!"

    Shop owner: "I have a Sword of Instead Undead Annihilation for sale--only 20,000 gold."

    Mayor: "Then give it to the adventurers who waltzed into town last week so they can save us!"

    Shop owner: "No, I can't do that. 20,000 gold or nothing."

    Undead menace: *crashes into shop* *snarl* *hiss* *kills shop owner in a grisly, unmentionable way*

    Mayor: "Woe is us! We can't steal from the poor, dead shop owner. Flee! Flee for your very lives!"

    How about giving items to adventurers on credit? "We'll give you the item now and you bring us the gold as you collect it from the cold, dead hands of enemies you butcher (sometimes without a second thought)." I suppose the problem there is collecting on the debt--the city guard can shake down the 4th-level party with decent starting equipment but you aren't going to get a copper from the 20th-level party on their way back into town after clearing the Dungeon of Infinite Despair.
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 426
    It's what I tried to do in my mod. Grog in Auril's Bane halved the prices of the weapons in Conlan's store. Those weapons were pretty much just overly expensive +3 or +2 weapons with some fancy descriptions.

    I also added modifications to those weapons in accordance with their description. For example, Hellpick, a warhammer made to fight against mages, grants +THAC0 and damage against mages.
  • inethineth Member Posts: 707

    How about giving items to adventurers on credit? "We'll give you the item now and you bring us the gold as you collect it from the cold, dead hands of enemies you butcher (sometimes without a second thought)." I suppose the problem there is collecting on the debt--the city guard can shake down the 4th-level party with decent starting equipment but you aren't going to get a copper from the 20th-level party on their way back into town after clearing the Dungeon of Infinite Despair.

    You can give the player party a hefty reputation decrease when they fail to pay their debt.

    Since that will affect store prices and may cause Paladins to fall, it would provide some incentive to pay. At least for good-aligned parties. For evil parties, defrauding villagers is actually appropriate from a roleplaying standpoint... :)
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    ineth said:

    But the improved moddability and BG2 compatibility was still worth it, IMO, for giving us access to so many high-quality kit mods, tweak mods, rule-changing mods (think Scales of Balance), etc.

    IWD-in-BG2 was definitely time well spent, mainly because I had fun trying to do it and also that it became the backbone of IWDEE.
  • saoxsaox Member Posts: 104
    Another thing I think we need is better AI - it is so easy to micro enemies in IWD. You draw a whole group with one character and they all just follow him while the rest of the party beats them to death.
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 426
    saox said:

    Another thing I think we need is better AI - it is so easy to micro enemies in IWD. You draw a whole group with one character and they all just follow him while the rest of the party beats them to death.

    That's because Beamdog never went about importing the original IWD1 AI. They just used the one they implemented in BG1EE and later on in BG2EE. Truly, for all of their boast about improving the AI from BG1 to BG2, it is still way inferior to the one from IWD1.

    And there's a simple reason for it. Originally, when the team developing BG1 and BG2 got to work, they focused a lot more on the story and less on the general functionality of the engine. In IWD1, the story took a secondary position and the game looks a lot more polished and with less hiccups when it comes to engine.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited November 2017
    for me the biggest problem are the items (weapons mostly)

    - there are generic +x items with custom graphics and descriptions (mostly in shops - conlan's wares...all that needs to go away basically)
    - there are unique items with generic graphics and essentially generic diablo style descriptions (random items); also, random item naming and functionality is inconsistent and points to placeholder/unfinished material ("fast flail" - seriously?)
    ...obviously items from these two categories can be refabricated and possibly combined to make a single, more paradigmatically correct category: unique item = unique name-description-graphics + unique functionality; however there would still be a need for random items and these would get not unique, but distinct and logical names, descriptions and graphics, and tweaked stats, for consistency)

    - there are iwd-themed items in bg2, that you would expect to be obtainable in iwd, these items need to be retconned in (sling of everard)
    - there are paradigmatically correct items that are however lamely placed and don't add much of value (the situation with multiple similar elven bows in the severed hand)
    - also: with the existing overabundance of magical weapons in iwd i think that pretty much all generic +x items in shops and elsewhere need to go away (replaced with masterwork, that's what subtledoctor has been doing but not yet for iwd:ee)
    - finally, armor should get the same treatment so that there's a variety of armor in the "random item" paradigm, just like there are weapons; possibly helmets boots and shields could follow this too

    i have worked out solutions (not technical) for all of these issues i think, but it's a lot of stuff...
    actually not by myself, but i've been brainstorming this with subtledoctor. however, it's just "theory"
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 426
    You really should look at my mod, when it is released (the other thread, the one for Auril's Bane for EE). The issue with generic weapons, I fixed. I made modifications to those weapons and also changed some of their prices. Spending 30k gp on a +3 2h sword is simply unlikely.
    Secondly, good weapons deserve descriptions and stories. And as I like writing them, they got that.

    The IWD-themed items in BG2 are not really that useful, but some of them might be added. I'll consider this. Same for items from IWD2 mentioning IWD1 adventures.

    I for one am quite reluctant on removing the items entirely, except when it comes to what should be a unique item which gets duplicated. Ring of Free Action for example. You can get around 7 of them in the game. I removed the 6 duplicates.
    However, other more generic items, like say Longbow: Defender or Scimitar Frostbrand, are not unique, they just have the proper enchantment, so they should be kept as they are, even if you can find several of them.
    Same with Chainmails of the Hand. 2 additions I made were to make Kaylessa's ring also grant +1 dex as her other random items and also the Mail of Life, found in Upper Dorn's Deep, I made an elven chainmail as it should be from its description.

    Keep the suggestions coming. Give me more ideas to work on, even though this isn't my thread, but I am collaborating with Ravandel on these ideas.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited November 2017
    so you made modifications by giving the generic-working weapons special stats which certainly makes them better (you could say useful for the first time), but you also lowered the price, and kept them in, say, conlan's store?

    about the usefulness of items that can be retconned in - i don't think it's important that they be useful, it's more a matter of flavour. as long as they don't disturb the balance, i'd say they should be in

    you're right about longbow: defender, but items like that need custom graphics, and they still need custom descriptions for that suffix (it doesn't need to be anything fluffy, just two sentences), and the suffix should always mean the same thing (defender is pretty consistent if i remember well, but many other suffixes are super inconsistent)

    but you're wrong about scimitar +3: frostbrand, i'm pretty sure. that weapon actually is unique in 2e

    here's where we talked a lot about this http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27803&page=4#entry251491
    it's in the context of EET so some things wouldn't apply outside of it, but most would.

    for example, this was mainly the type of thinking that we were having for how to increase the quality of itemization from both purely formal and functional standpoint:

    instead of
    long bow +2: defender: +2 AC, save vs spell +2 ...flavorless semi-generic useful
    longbow af action +2: +2/+3, +1 dex ...flavorless semi-generic useful/redundant
    kaylessa's bow (+3): +3/+3, +1 dex ...+3 too early and basically identical to the above
    composite bow of the hand: +2/+2 ...flavored generic useless (terrible)

    we get:
    kaylessa's bow: +2 AC, save vs spell +2 (new stats don't conflict with description) ...flavored unique useful yay!
    composite bow of the hand +2, +1 DEX, 10% entangle on hit ...flavored unique useful yay!


    but for example, i very fundamentally disagree that if there are a few "kaylessa's" items that they should all have +1 dex. that's not where more consistency is needed. because if she was once a living hero with all the equipment a warrior has, it would not all have conferred the same type of bonus. she would have sought stuff that gives her rounded-out bonuses...
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 426
    bob_veng said:

    so you made modifications by giving the generic-working weapons special stats which certainly makes them better (you could say useful for the first time), but you also lowered the price, and kept them in, say, conlan's store?

    about the usefulness of items that can be retconned in - i don't think it's important that they be useful, it's more a matter of flavour. as long as they don't disturb the balance, i'd say they should be in

    you're right about longbow: defender, but items like that need custom graphics, and they still need custom descriptions for that suffix (it doesn't need to be anything fluffy, just two sentences), and the suffix should always mean the same thing (defender is pretty consistent if i remember well, but many other suffixes are super inconsistent)

    but you're wrong about scimitar +3: frostbrand, i'm pretty sure. that weapon actually is unique in 2e

    here's where we talked a lot about this http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27803&page=4#entry251491
    it's in the context of EET so some things wouldn't apply outside of it, but most would.

    for example, this was mainly the type of thinking that we were having for how to increase the quality of itemization from both purely formal and functional standpoint:


    instead of
    long bow +2: defender: +2 AC, save vs spell +2 ...flavorless semi-generic useful
    longbow af action +2: +2/+3, +1 dex ...flavorless semi-generic useful/redundant
    kaylessa's bow (+3): +3/+3, +1 dex ...+3 too early and basically identical to the above
    composite bow of the hand: +2/+2 ...flavored generic useless (terrible)

    we get:
    kaylessa's bow: +2 AC, save vs spell +2 (new stats don't conflict with description) ...flavored unique useful yay!
    composite bow of the hand +2, +1 DEX, 10% entangle on hit ...flavored unique useful yay!


    but for example, i very fundamentally disagree that if there are a few "kaylessa's" items that they should all have +1 dex. that's not where more consistency is needed. because if she was once a living hero with all the equipment a warrior has, it would not all have conferred the same type of bonus. she would have sought stuff that gives her rounded-out bonuses...
    Indeed. That's what I did. Originally Grog halved the price of those weapons. I added some modifications to them. Like let's say Hellpick, a warhammer +2 used to kill mages. It grants bonus to THAC0 and Damage against mages.

    On the topic of longbows, one of the problems EE introduced was the fact that for some odd reason they switched the icons for Composite bows and longbows. Originally, there were more different looking longbow icons for various items. With EE, they all look the same, a magical Composite Bow.

    The real problem with adding modifications to items is to keep in mind the overall balance of the game. EE already did plenty to unbalance the game with kits and spells. Adding overpowered effects to weapons might make the game a joke.

    I am all for adding some slight modifications to the existing items or fixing them (trust me on this, the amount of bugs relating to items is huge). I am however reluctant to add modifications that aim at making items "more useful". Significant improvement of the quality of items has the potential of creating unbalance on the game. I can add for example, a bonus against certain enemies, some ability that aids the user, like AC, hit points or alike. But I am really not tempted into adding effects like Entangle on hit.
    Usually, my approach is that at every item I improved, I also added a counter-benefit. For example, I made Giant's sleep grant bonus against giants, but is a weapon which can only be used by rangers. Or another example, I modified Cairn's Blade to grant +2 AC, but also requires 18 strength to wield.

    There are way too many mods created that add overpowered items to the game, make the existing items even more powerful, destroy the randomness of loot, but all of this IMO destroy the flavor and replayability of the game.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited November 2017
    we're on the same page about balance in principle, but i think you're not quite there practically :)

    you see, you made a series of weapons more useful *and* more accessible by lowering the price! the fact that you added some restrictions and drawbacks still doesn't mean that it's not a net increase in power for the player, because the increased freedom of choice makes it possible to optimize more. certainly, a lot of players are going to have rangers in their party etc.

    so, really what you should have done (i know i'm being brash, but it's just a more efficient way to communicate :) ) is taken those items away from conlan and placed them later in the game, ideally scattered them in places - and when you look at it, you don't have to make up new abilities and stats for items and enrich the game in this regard, you can assign the stats of some more extraordinary random items to conlan's just-flavor items, and kill two birds with one stone. it's just a question of how to do this exactly that is a bit problematic, but it can be done - for example:

    Tombsweeper flail +3 --- can be merged with any flail with generic description ("...Runes can be seen glowing on every surface"), random or non-random; for me the main candidate is fast flail +2 (getting rid of that lamest of names is certainly a plus too)

    in essence, this is a traditionalist methodology because you're not adding stuff to the game or taking anything out, just mixing up, recombining...

    edit: basically, whatever i'm saying please read it through the lens of "not removing just mixing up, and altering if necessary, for the sake of consistency and world-continuity, and as a very last resort - adding"
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 426
    The price. The price issue is on the original IWD1. In EE, I am not altering the price that much for one simple reason. EE added reputation to the game which leads to lower prices already. As such, I am not going to transfer the original price cut made by Grog.

    You are right though, that redistributing certain items can and should be done, as they might adversely affect the game in the long run when it comes to balance. I did that already in part. As an example, Cradle of Mielikki, a scimitar that you can get in Kresselack's Tomb, I placed in the possession of Arundel and you can get it when he dies at the end of Chapter 2.

    One feature that I wanted to have but never got around to find time to do it, was to add as items, the armor and weapons found initially on display in Easthaven Tempus temple during prologue. Those items cannot be found when Cryshal Tirith replaces the temple and my intention was to have them placed in Pomab's possession. Overpowered items to be certain, but useful for HoF. Also, adding a store update for HoF with overpowered HoF version of items in Easthaven it can be easily done to emulate IWD2 HoF.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    cradle of mielikki? so you converted a random loot item to a fixed location item. that overall is a boon for the player :)

    also it's not an overpowered item, so it doesn't need moving, and it's a paradigmatically incorrect item (unfinished i suspect) because it doesn't have any special stats: it's a flavored-generic.

    so instead of moving it, i'd first combine it with an existing enchanted scimitar

    since there are no flavoreless-nongeneric scimitars, i'd combine it with a longsword, especially since longswords are an overrepresented category.

    a good candidate imo is longsword of action +2 (stupid name, no custom description, no custom graphics)

    so i'd "dress" the longsword of action +2, wherever it may be found (should be restricted to one place if there are multiple), in cradle of mielikki clothes (convert it to scimitar of course), probably keep it random, and maybe even give it a restriction to rangers and druids.

    so that's the methodology i'm talking about :smile:
  • saoxsaox Member Posts: 104
    Redrake said:

    saox said:

    Another thing I think we need is better AI - it is so easy to micro enemies in IWD. You draw a whole group with one character and they all just follow him while the rest of the party beats them to death.

    That's because Beamdog never went about importing the original IWD1 AI. They just used the one they implemented in BG1EE and later on in BG2EE. Truly, for all of their boast about improving the AI from BG1 to BG2, it is still way inferior to the one from IWD1.

    And there's a simple reason for it. Originally, when the team developing BG1 and BG2 got to work, they focused a lot more on the story and less on the general functionality of the engine. In IWD1, the story took a secondary position and the game looks a lot more polished and with less hiccups when it comes to engine.
    It was also bad in IWD1 original.
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 426
    saox said:



    It was also bad in IWD1 original.

    Not that bad. Characters would not get stuck in one another to hit just one enemy. Enemies would not chase one character around, while the other members of your party whack it mercilessly. EE created the easiest Belhifet battle around. Just make him chase a character with boots of speed around and kill it with other party members.

  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 426
    bob_veng said:

    cradle of mielikki? so you converted a random loot item to a fixed location item. that overall is a boon for the player :)

    also it's not an overpowered item, so it doesn't need moving, and it's a paradigmatically incorrect item (unfinished i suspect) because it doesn't have any special stats: it's a flavored-generic.

    so instead of moving it, i'd first combine it with an existing enchanted scimitar

    since there are no flavoreless-nongeneric scimitars, i'd combine it with a longsword, especially since longswords are an overrepresented category.

    a good candidate imo is longsword of action +2 (stupid name, no custom description, no custom graphics)

    so i'd "dress" the longsword of action +2, wherever it may be found (should be restricted to one place if there are multiple), in cradle of mielikki clothes (convert it to scimitar of course), probably keep it random, and maybe even give it a restriction to rangers and druids.

    so that's the methodology i'm talking about :smile:

    You want to take all the fun. I want to create stories and names for these weapons, not merge them. I don't want to turn it into another BG1, with just very few unique items. I want to keep the flavor of IWD1 in, not simplify it.

    And there's already a scimitar which grants an extra attack/round. Is called Valiant and can be found in Lower Dorn's Deep.

    I gave cradle of Mielikki just as one example. I added it because the odds of finding a magical scimitar are the lowest in the game before you reach Lower Dorn's Deep (unless you get a random drop or you buy Lucky Scimitar, that is).
    I could've mentioned Warhammer +4 Defender, which is overpowered, but I turned into a unique weapon with a story, Moradin's Defender.
    Or maybe, Black Dragon Scale, which is a light armor, usable by thieves, despite being called scale. I also updated that item to be placed on Seth instead of Marketh.

    I also reduced the available number of Long swords of action. There's only one +2 version which is random, but there are 2 +4 versions of it, one random and one placed. I removed the placed one (on one of the mercenaries who are chasing Kieran in Lonelywood.

    Finally, I added items from the original BG1, but on the idea that they might be found in Icewind Dale in the first place. Meaning no items belonging to Balduran, Kazgaroth or belonging to BG1 NPCs. But I did add Spider's Bane, Varscona and items like Ring of Energy.

    What you also must keep in mind is the fact that my mod is built as an extension to Auril's Bane, which besides some additional quests comes with its own pool of items, skills, cantrips and abilities. These in turn can also be turned into modifications for weapons. I think that later today, when I get home I'll start some game in IWD1 with AB and take some screenshots on what Auril's Bane is all about. I think that some images might make it easier to clarify the amount of work I overtook to do.
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