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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2017
    deltago said:

    Franken's accuser has said she accepts his apology, believes it is heartfelt, and is not asking for his resignation. Barring any further allegations of a similar kind (and if recent history tells us anything, if it was a pattern, there will be a flood of them) I am inclined to adhere to what both @ThacoBell and Tim Kaine both essentially said. If the accuser accepts the apology, I will also accept that. The thing is, people accused of this kind of conduct RARELY admit to it and apologize. Franken COULD have gone on the attack against his accuser like Donald Trump or Roy Moore, but he decided to take his medicine instead. And there is SOMETHING to be said for that in a society that is currently awash in powerful males denying similar allegations. Obviously, if more women tell the same story, he will have to go. If it is a one-off incident (big if) and the accuser is granting his absolution (in a sense), then I don't think it rises to the level of resignation. However, that could easily change.

    Well the people of Minnesota still get a say in the matter.
    He's up in 2020, which is a ways off. He has worked hard at the job and he is generally pretty well-liked, and he spends alot of time on local issues. Like I mentioned before, I'm from Minnesota, and in 2008 he won by just over 300 votes. If this had come out then, he would have almost certainly lost, but it didn't. It didn't come up again in 2014, when he sailed to re-election. IF it is the only such incident, he could easily survive this. People like to forgive after you are taken down. If he does end up resigning, Mark Dayton, a Democrat, will pick someone to fill out the remainder of his term. I'm 90% sure he would pick a very progressive woman to fill that seat if that happens considering the circumstances. They would also serve til 2020. Amy Klobuchar, the junior Senator, may hold his fate in her hands. She is the one leading the charge in Congress to crack down on sexual harassment in that branch of government. I know they are close, and this has got to be a big disappointment for her. She won't stick by him if another allegation comes out.

    I don't know, I'm a Minnesota person. I cheer for Minnesota sports teams because that's where I'm from. I've always been generally proud of most of our politicians. I hope Al Franken can earn that trust back. Surprisingly enough, this morning when I saw the story, I felt the same way I did when perhaps our greatest native son (well, other than Bob Dylan maybe), Prince, died last year. Just got a big pit in my stomach and felt horrible.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2017

    Wow, I did not think Trump would be stupid enough to dive into this fight. Even for him, this is a colossal blunder. I've been wondering when we could actually litigate this issue. The media is at this point almost obligated to put his accusers back on TV if they are willing to talk. Throughout the entirety of the last couple months post-Weinstein, I've been asking why only Donald Trump seems immune to the wave that is happening. He just invited it in the front door. I'm not sure he has any self-awareness at all.
    semiticgoddessDreadKhanFinneousPJThacoBell
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367


    Wow, I did not think Trump would be stupid enough to dive into this fight. Even for him, this is a colossal blunder. I've been wondering when we could actually litigate this issue. The media is at this point almost obligated to put his accusers back on TV if they are willing to talk. Throughout the entirety of the last couple months post-Weinstein, I've been asking why only Donald Trump seems immune to the wave that is happening. He just invited it in the front door. I'm not sure he has any self-awareness at all.
    He definitely doesn't have any sense of shame for his past actions...
    jjstraka34DreadKhansmeagolheartThacoBell
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2017
    Balrog99 said:


    Wow, I did not think Trump would be stupid enough to dive into this fight. Even for him, this is a colossal blunder. I've been wondering when we could actually litigate this issue. The media is at this point almost obligated to put his accusers back on TV if they are willing to talk. Throughout the entirety of the last couple months post-Weinstein, I've been asking why only Donald Trump seems immune to the wave that is happening. He just invited it in the front door. I'm not sure he has any self-awareness at all.
    He definitely doesn't have any sense of shame for his past actions...
    I think it's entirely possible he has convinced himself of his own lies. It's happened to me before, people can do it. But on this scale, it becomes a pathology. And since he seems to be perfectly capable of creating that reality for enough people to continue supporting him, it's only going to get worse.
    Balrog99smeagolheart
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    From what I've found Israel demographically speaking had colossal amounts of immigration. All those people needed places to live, work and play. According to a quick glance at the wiki, some 3 million Jews immigrated. Thats in a country that has presently under 9 million people. :/

    I agree that early migration is a very different story, I've heard little negative predating WW2 really. I don't have a huge problem with early Zionism, only with the fact that Jews felt the need to emmigrate from Europe. That said I don't entirely believe the narrative that the area was unpopulated, as some half a million arabs lived there.

    3.8 billion in military aide yes, for a country of under 9 million, meaning its a great deal of money actually.

    The conflict cannot be solved by the weaker party, ever. It is always the decision of the strong to not fight that ultimately starts the resolution of a conflict. This is simple logic, and a great example is how whites in the US began to sicken of abusing african americans, and began instituting laws to protect the rights of african americans. Israel has not only not grown sick of fighting, I think there is an element that actively enjoys it. :s Thats a bit off topic maybe.

    Having a substate of Palestinians though is exactly the problem though. Presumeably this is supposed to give them a voice, but in practice it has played out like an apartheid, which most people are bothered by.

    Note, I haven't claimed that Palestinians are innocent, merely that they are infinitely weaker militarily and politically. This means they can't stop Israel's attacks, and having little voice in the country since it's founding has left them with valid reasons to be restive.

    @ineth Regarding validity of claims, I specifically mentioned the ongoing settlements, and most people in Israel know very well there will not be peace while those settlements not only exist but expand. I concede that claims don't have any solid guidelines in many cases, so thats why people go with their gut, and many outsiders see those settlements as crossing the line.

    Interesting points from everyone, even if we don't entirely agree.
    semiticgoddessGrond0Balrog99
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 523
    Klobuchar is the senior Senator from MN serving since 2007, I think.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    bleusteel said:

    Klobuchar is the senior Senator from MN serving since 2007, I think.

    Yes, you're correct....my bad.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2017

    Balrog99 said:


    Wow, I did not think Trump would be stupid enough to dive into this fight. Even for him, this is a colossal blunder. I've been wondering when we could actually litigate this issue. The media is at this point almost obligated to put his accusers back on TV if they are willing to talk. Throughout the entirety of the last couple months post-Weinstein, I've been asking why only Donald Trump seems immune to the wave that is happening. He just invited it in the front door. I'm not sure he has any self-awareness at all.
    He definitely doesn't have any sense of shame for his past actions...
    I think it's entirely possible he has convinced himself of his own lies. It's happened to me before, people can do it. But on this scale, it becomes a pathology. And since he seems to be perfectly capable of creating that reality for enough people to continue supporting him, it's only going to get worse.
    This is it. He's definitely a practiced liar who never admits failure even in the face of clear failure. No conscience.

    Trump University a scam? Nah brah. Seven bankruptcies? I'm smart! Fewer people at your inauguration than at Obamas? Uh fake news...

    Yes, so Trump believes Franken's accuser but not Moore's (or his own) . He damn well knows about his own bad behavior that he admitted to Billy Bush about on the Access Hollywood tape. The seemingly ridiculous pee dossier has had several aspects corroborated too.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Grond0smeagolheartThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2017


    Keystone XL leaked 210k gallons of oil all over South Dakota today.

    The DAPL pipeline will leak someday and it's going through a main water supply in the area.
    FinneousPJsemiticgoddessThacoBell
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    small correction: keystone xl hasn't been built yet. this is keystone sans xl, already existing at the time of trump's tweet
    MathsorcerersemiticgoddesssmeagolheartThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,305
    Yes. Interesting timing given that Nebraska is due to announce in the next few days whether the Keystone XL can go forward.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    There has never been an instance where the opposition to these pipelines have been wrong. The companies that run them ALWAYS shirk their responsibility when it comes to their safety and they ALWAYS have massive leaks. Dakota Access has sprung two major leaks twice this year. And it still isn't even fully operational.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    There has never been an instance where the opposition to these pipelines have been wrong. The companies that run them ALWAYS shirk their responsibility when it comes to their safety and they ALWAYS have massive leaks. Dakota Access has sprung two major leaks twice this year. And it still isn't even fully operational.

    Oh no. The opposition to pipelines (espcially Keystone XL) has their fare share of falsehoods, fear mongering and bribe money to their name.

    I think the problem lies with North Dakota. John Oliver had a segment on it I believe. State legislation and regulations are the best deterence in preventing these types of disasters.
    DreadKhan
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    deltago said:

    There has never been an instance where the opposition to these pipelines have been wrong. The companies that run them ALWAYS shirk their responsibility when it comes to their safety and they ALWAYS have massive leaks. Dakota Access has sprung two major leaks twice this year. And it still isn't even fully operational.

    Oh no. The opposition to pipelines (espcially Keystone XL) has their fare share of falsehoods, fear mongering and bribe money to their name.

    I think the problem lies with North Dakota. John Oliver had a segment on it I believe. State legislation and regulations are the best deterence in preventing these types of disasters.
    Im not sure legislation and regulations prevent leaks. Pipes seem inevitably certain to leak given a long enough timeline.

    Things happen such as earthquakes, falling rocks, sabotage, erosion, and so called acts of God.

    Pipelines are going to leak.
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 523
    The Franken photo is evidence that doesn’t really exist in other harassment claims and it’s damning. It’s interesting that it was clearly staged by Franken and included on a CD compilation of photos that were given to all of the performers on the tour, per the victim. How could the USO not know about it?

    I feel that it was a gag, “locker room” behavior, to quote the President and had no malice behind it. It was completely sophomoric and idiotic and abusive but I don’t think Franken was revelling in exercising control over her. Who knows. The accepted apology seemed heartfelt - we’ll just have to see where the investigation goes.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,305
    So who believes that the Pentagon retweet calling for Trump to resign was an accident?
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Oops :D
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2017
    I think we should oppose pipelines and move on from fossil fuels.

    It's nearly 2018 people. The future is here we are supposed to be riding hover boards and stuff if Back to the Future 2 is any indication.

    Let's move forward.

    The UK and Canada are pushing a global initiative to move on from Coal (lol trump) . We should be on solar and whatever tech scientists think of to replace gasoline.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    edited November 2017
    In Really Important News, Katy Perry and Gigi Hadid are being denied visas to China, which they intended to visit to participate in the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show... the reported causes being Ms Perry wearing a Republic of China flag during a performance, while Ms Hadid appeared in a problematic video seen as demeaning to Asians and possibly Buddhists.

    I think the flag incident is pretty much understandable given how abyssmal relations are between China and Taiwan, and its clearly China perogative to bar entry, but its strange they waited until now to communicate their intentions. Obviously you can't deny a visa until asked, but this really should have been handled better. Afaik, manufacturing of fashion products is still pretty big in China (according to The Economist, +40% of exported clothing is made in China), so why is the Chinese government so eager to deliberately sabotage what is probably the biggest night in fashion? :confused:

    The Hadid incident I suspect was mostly because of a not insignificant uproar on the Internet coming from Chinese people... it seems to smack of old Western Imperialism, and speaks to the Chinese of disdain for their culture and people. I think barring Katy Perry could be expected, but barring Gigi Hadid (who is one of the highest profile models in the world, and has been for several years ) reflects a government actively concerned with what the people want, specifically what the internet using populace wants. I find this rather interesting, as its not like the preceding leaders of China were overly concerned with popularity.
    Post edited by DreadKhan on
  • inethineth Member Posts: 707
    edited November 2017
    DreadKhan said:

    The conflict cannot be solved by the weaker party, ever. It is always the decision of the strong to not fight that ultimately starts the resolution of a conflict.

    I think this is a logical fallacy which, unfortunately, misleads many observers of this conflict.

    It is, of course, a sensible first assumption to consider that when there's a conflict with a stark power imbalance, the weaker party is probably in it because they have no other choice – out of sheer desperation, as a last stand for survival, etc. Because otherwise, their participation in the conflict would be irrational!

    But common sense turns to fallacy when you conclude that it must be that way, and let your first assumption be your final judgment. Specifically, what it fails to take into account is that motivations sometimes are very irrational!

    I think it's pretty clear from the Palestinian's words and actions over the last century, that they don't fight Israel in order to gain peace or prosperity or statehood. They could get all that by not fighting Israel.
    It's a kind of religious endeavor for them, not one of rational self-interest.

    But even "religion" doesn't describe it properly; we're not dealing with run-of-the-mill Islam here (other Muslim societies aren't like this), but with a unique blend of Islamism, Arab Supremacism, ultra-nationalism, shame culture, and focused hatred, hardened over generations.
    Keep in mind that Palestinians originated from many different historic Arab tribes, and a large portion of them had immigrated from other parts of the Middle East in parallel with modern Zionism – their 'ethnicity' was defined artificially by the borders after the 1949 war, and their shared culture/identity formed in response to Israel. The dream of destroying Israel, the moral ideal of murdering Jews, and the practice of terrorism have become core parts of the Palestinian national identity, and it won't be easy for them to get past that as long as each generation indoctrinates the next with it.

    If you think I'm being too harsh in that assessment, consider that this is a society where strapping an explosive belt around a teenager and sending them to blow up in a neighboring city is not just socially acceptable, but considered glorious. Where terrorists who broke into Jewish homes and stabbed babies in their sleep are celebrated in the streets, get public buildings named after them, and their families are awarded bounties by the PLO (paid for from the financial aid it receives from the US and EU). Where kid's shows on public TV have young children singing about their goal of martyrdom.

    It's not just a radical fringe (which every country has), it's pretty much a whole society that has become pathological – a society that is now religiously dedicated to continuing the war against Israel, even at the expense of their own wellbeing, guided by an irrational 'sacred' claim to exclusive ownership of the whole land and the faith that their god will grant them eventual victory if only they keep killing Jews and don't compromise.

    What could Israel do to make peace with them in the short or near-term?
    As unsatisfying as that may be, it looks like the answer is: Absolutely nothing.

    Give away lots of land? Wouldn't change anything. (They tried it before.)

    Abolish the settlements? Wouldn't change anything. (Relations weren't better before the settlements existed, either.)

    Abolish the borders, and put millions of people who were brainwashed from birth to hate and kill Jews in a pot together with millions of Jews, and tell them all to elect a shared government and be a big happy family (the so-called "one-state solution")? Does anyone who isn't out of their mind actually think that the result of that would be be peace?

    The best that Israel can probably do for now, is to bunker down, shield its citizens from the effects of Palestinian political violence as much as possible, focus inward on keeping its own liberal democracy and civil society healthy (e.g. keep its extremist fringe from becoming a problem), live their lives, and hope that one day a majority of Palestinians will care more about the welfare of their own families than about their holy crusade against Israel. Other societies have turned pathological before (e.g. Nazi Germany), and recovered, so there is hope.
    ThacoBellWarChiefZekemch202FinneousPJ
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    edited November 2017

    I think we should oppose pipelines and move on from fossil fuels.

    It's nearly 2018 people. The future is here we are supposed to be riding hover boards and stuff if Back to the Future 2 is any indication.

    Let's move forward.

    The UK and Canada are pushing a global initiative to move on from Coal (lol trump) . We should be on solar and whatever tech scientists think of to replace gasoline.

    I've got a great idea. Why don't Canada and the UK lead the way and show the rest of the world how great things go for them instead of 'pushing a global initiative'? I'm sure it'll be so awesome that the rest of us will just have to jump on board shortly...
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2017
    Here's the GOP tax bill in a nutshell. I could go over the fact that they are eliminating deductions for teachers buying school supplies out of pocket, the deduction for people adopting a child, medical expenses, and college loans and ADDING a deduction for (I'm not shitting you) owning a private jet. But the bottom line is in this chart. By 2027, if you make under $100,000 dollars a year, your taxes are going to go up. If you make over that, you're getting a tax break. Less than 20% of the American population ever breaks the 100k mark for a year in their lives:
    semiticgoddessThacoBell
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I think I can confidently say you're more fluent on this issue than me, andnprobably more knowledgeable, but I think I have a few good points.

    It is a fact of reality that the weaker cannot force the stronger to not harm them, as they lack the necessary strength. If you cannot restrain someone intent on harming you, they will harm you. The more imbalanced the situation, the more true this becomes. The Palestinians have no ability to threaten Israel, and haven't for years, meaning they cannot force Israel to do a damned thing, be it to fight or not fight. This wasn't the case 30 years ago, but it is now. I should mention soft power though, but being charismatic is also a type of power.

    Why the heck are people that never had any input into government from the founding of the state supposed to be compliant and non-restive? Nobody asked the majority of Arabs what they wanted, they simply were ignored. I know most of that stuff has moved into history, but imho history must be addressed. Canada for example made a public apology for many egregious wrongs done to Natives, and there has been a big media push to give Natives more of a voice. Native issues are something most Canadian knew nothing really about, so stereotypes reigned supreme. Canada has much work ahead on the subject, but I think some of the steps Canada took would be relevant and helpful to Israel.

    I think you're not giving Palestinians credit, and frankly religious justifications are thick on both sides. People do not revolt because they are happy, they actually need pretty strong incentives to do so. The biggest incentive imho in revolts is a lack of hope in the present situation. One can see by studying history that revolts are actually quite rare, even in cases of tyranny. Palestinians are stuck in a cycle that Israel has helped sustain by a variety of means, including military force. Imho thats why the 'bad guys' have such an easy time finding recruits willing to die.

    I think you're mischaracterizing Muslims a bit, but depending on your news sources this is pretty understandable. I may be reading you wrong, but you seem to be painting Palestinians as bogeymen, and ignoring the causes of their distresses, and over-weighting the distresses of Israel.

    Israel has made what I see as half-hearted gestures towards peace, while they continue abuses like over use of military force (way, way too many civilian casualties are tolerated to kill 'problematic' Palestinians) and those settlements you won't acknowledge which continue to rub salt in Arab wounds.

    Incidently, I am sane and see the one state solution as the only way to lasting peace. The wealth is divided too unevenly atm, and conditions are atrocious for many Palestinians, even if you ignore the issues of Israeli military overreactions. I think both sides are deserving of apologies, and I think you'd be surprised how accomodating people can be if they feel like they are a real part of combined Israeli society. Maybe I'm too optimistic?

    IN OTHER NEWS:

    Apparently several other models have been blocked from entering China... this may seem like superfluous puffery, but the VS Fashion Show is a big deal in a fashion business that invests heavily in China. I wonder what the Chinese government is thinking; if they didn't want to be cooperative hosts, they should have said so from the start. It could be costly to be hostile for China, as they don't have the cheapest workforce, and snubbing like this could see more developement dollars going elsewhere. Why build factories in a country that treats your business poorly/arbitrarily? I'm sure more will come out later though, curious if VS itself will comment, perhaps after the show?
    semiticgoddess
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,173
    @ineth While I I would agree that Palestinian society has to an extent defined its identity in relation to Israel, that is also true of Israeli society. These societies are interdependent partners in an unequal relationship. This has a corrupting effect on both sides, and manifests itself in a variety of ways, such as the relative statuses of languages within the different communities, and unequal opportunities afforded to citizens due to their religious beliefs and ethnicity. Moreover there are other groups who straddle these two 'sides', such as Palestinian Israelis, Druzes, or children of mixed marriages. Hopefully bottom-up solutions to the conflict will develop from interactions between parties, but I think these will require some measure of equality and reciprocity which are difficult to achieve under present conditions. Peace is to some extent a daring & dishonourable bargain, which requires both sides to acknowledge that their present interdependence is of more value than their debts from the past.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,305
    DreadKhan said:

    It is a fact of reality that the weaker cannot force the stronger to not harm them, as they lack the necessary strength. If you cannot restrain someone intent on harming you, they will harm you. The more imbalanced the situation, the more true this becomes. The Palestinians have no ability to threaten Israel, and haven't for years, meaning they cannot force Israel to do a damned thing, be it to fight or not fight. This wasn't the case 30 years ago, but it is now. I should mention soft power though, but being charismatic is also a type of power.

    Force may not be quite the right word, but there have been numerous cases in the past where a weaker side has successfully broken the will of the stronger side to dominate them. That's been possible through mainly peaceful protest, e.g. India, South Africa, as well as through guerrilla action.

    The problem for the Palestinians has been that the terrain has been against them. In places like Afghanistan history has shown over and over again that it's not possible to force the population into submission due to their ability to hide and spring ambushes - that's much for difficult to do in the Israel / Palestine conflict (though part of the reason for the tunnel complexes was an attempt at that). I think that's why there's been so much use of human shields along with terror tactics. There's a significant part of the Palestinian movement which is daring Israel to respond more aggressively in the belief that at some point, as a result of both domestic and international pressure, they will lose the will to continue to fight.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2017
    Balrog99 said:

    I think we should oppose pipelines and move on from fossil fuels.

    It's nearly 2018 people. The future is here we are supposed to be riding hover boards and stuff if Back to the Future 2 is any indication.

    Let's move forward.

    The UK and Canada are pushing a global initiative to move on from Coal (lol trump) . We should be on solar and whatever tech scientists think of to replace gasoline.

    I've got a great idea. Why don't Canada and the UK lead the way and show the rest of the world how great things go for them instead of 'pushing a global initiative'? I'm sure it'll be so awesome that the rest of us will just have to jump on board shortly...
    I may have not clearly explained what
    they are doing. They are Leading a global initiative. To me, the main point is that the US leadership role is usurped and we are on the wrong side of this particular issue.

    UK and Canada lead global alliance against coal
    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42014244

    "The UK and Canada have launched a global alliance of 20 countries committed to phasing out coal for energy production.

    Members including France, Finland and Mexico, say they will end the use of coal before 2030.

    Ministers hope to have 50 countries signed up by the time of the next major UN conference in Poland next year."
    JoenSoFinneousPJ
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    edited November 2017
    Balrog99 said:

    I've got a great idea. Why don't Canada and the UK lead the way and show the rest of the world how great things go for them instead of 'pushing a global initiative'? I'm sure it'll be so awesome that the rest of us will just have to jump on board shortly...

    Because it's a global issue that needs to be solved on a global level. Pushing for a global initiative is leading the way.

    Also, moving on from fossil fuel is a good thing, but it's not easy. Fossil fuels are kind of like the dark side in Star wars. Quicker and easier but more destructive. Renewable sources of energy are often more complicated and expensive and other countries won't (or can't) just jump on board on their own.
    Post edited by JoenSo on
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,173
    On the flipside of course there are potential commercial advantages to those countries/ companies which successfully implement 'green' energy & tech and can then export those methods elsewhere.
    JoenSoFinneousPJdunbarsmeagolheart
This discussion has been closed.