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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2017

    This shooting happened ten days ago. There WAS another shooting today (that barely scraped the news) in California where some more kids got shot at a school (let's not even get into the fact that such an event barely makes the radar anymore). However, it appears that Donald Trump is simply copying and pasting messages about mass shootings, and couldn't even be bothered to get the name of the town or city correct in this case. This shows the usual callousness, the usual lack of empathy. But what it really shows is that Donald Trump is one lazy asshole. He can't even fake being engaged in the news of the events of the country he is supposed to be running to even bother learning the basic details of what he is referring to. If Donald Trump was assigned Romeo and Juliet as an assignment in English class, he would not only not read it, he wouldn't even bother with the Cliff's Notes. He wouldn't even rent the movie.

    Down in Alabama, they are inventing new, creative ways to try to get a accused pedophile elected (well, not so new it turns out). There are robo-calls going out in the state that claim to be someone from the Washington Post called "Bernie Bernstein" asking people who answer the phone if they know of any dirt on Roy Moore and offering cash payments for information. That's right, there is a concerted effort being made in Alabama to trick voters by pretending to be a Washington Post reporter (with a conspicuously Jewish name, which isn't a coincidence AT ALL) to make it seem like they are conducting a hit job on Roy Moore. I suppose supporting Moore at this point is one thing, but resorting to this kind of dirty-trickery to further help him along is way beyond the pale. At the same time, Moore and his wife presented a letter signed by over 50 pastors in support of him. Only one problem. The letter was from BEFORE the allegations came to light, and they deliberately attempted to pass it off as being written AFTERWARDS. I'm fairly sure the Ten Commandments Roy Moore became famous for having put on his courthouse steps said something about not bearing false witness, but what the hell do I know?? Maybe the 8th Commandment has been changed to "thou shalt walk around shopping malls looking for underage girls to molest".
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2017
    I'm Moore concerned about the fallout from the pending tax cuts for the rich. Not only will they (the ultrarich) be paying less of their share of the cost of living in the USA but I'll be charged more to make up for the shortfall.

    Also they are trying to kill Obamacare again and cut Medicare. I'm seriously concerned at this point that these business criminals running the Republican party will have destroyed Medicare by the time I'm going to need it in a few years.

    So yeah it will suck to be old and not have Healthcare. I'm not poor but a night at the hospital and it's all over - you'd get a greater than 100k bill easily and that's not just pocket change you can throw away four or five times a year.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    Why should anyone care about a shooting involving a few people at a school when no one gives a rat's read end about the daily shootings in Chicago and Baltimore? Until those make the front page headlines across the nation none of the others should, either...unless kids at a school are somehow more important than kids in Chicago, that is.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2017
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  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Congrats ya Ozzies
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2017

    This is some 9th level bullshit right here. Quick primer: 3 UCLA basketball players were caught shoplifting on a trip to China. They were technically (based on Chinese laws) facing serious time. Aside from possibly the UCLA Administration behind the scenes, no one was suggesting he insert himself in the situation.

    Here's what Trump does: he sees 3 black basketball players locked up in China. He intervenes with the EXPLICIT intent of then immediately taking to Twitter to say how ungrateful they are. Assuming they were in a Chinese jail until last night or this morning, there is almost no way the could have possibly had the CHANCE to thank him yet. This is Trump manufacturing another culture controversy out of thin air. He planned this tweet long in advance. He intervened specifically so he could call 3 black basketball players "ungrateful", when we have no evidence that is the case. When I saw the news he had inserted himself in the case last night on my phone, I knew this was going to be his play within 5 seconds.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Hmm, I don't see the word "ungrateful" in that tweet. It looks more like a cry for attention, "look what I did"
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    Hmm, I don't see the word "ungrateful" in that tweet. It looks more like a cry for attention, "look what I did"

    Implying they won't say thank you is implying they are ungrateful.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455

    Hmm, I don't see the word "ungrateful" in that tweet. It looks more like a cry for attention, "look what I did"

    Implying they won't say thank you is implying they are ungrateful.
    Like I said, that's not how I read that tweet.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    Hmm, I don't see the word "ungrateful" in that tweet. It looks more like a cry for attention, "look what I did"

    Yes and it can completely backfire once the full story comes out on how they were released and the players begin thanking everyone involved.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited November 2017
    Basically, this is what I imagine Trump's inner dialogue to be (2:14)

    https://youtu.be/ZuX6s-95hb0?t=2m14s
  • dreamtravelerdreamtraveler Member Posts: 377
    Corruption and decay here in Greece
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    No, the basketball thing is a manufactured controversy which appeals to people who dislike Trump. China would not have wanted the hassle of putting American citizens in prison so they were most likely going to be put on a plane and told "don't ever come back".

    *************

    Robert Mugabe, now in his 90s and leader of Zimbabwe since 1980 (yes, 1980!), has now been kicked out by the military. Mugabe's former VP, Emmerson Mnangagwa, who was fired only a week or two ago but who has strong ties to the military, is now the interim leader of the country.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I'd agree on almost every point, except for one: if you are in fact the good guy, you do not in fact kill human shields. Just because human shields make it harder to kill your enemies doesn't mean you get to shoot them.

    Killing civilians isn't okay, even if it is convenient.

    Hamas is scum for using human shields. But Hamas being guilty of using human shields doesn't mean the human shields are guilty of being enemy combatants.

    Put it this way: if you're at a bank when it gets robbed and the robbers use you as a human shield, how do you feel about the police shooting you?
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    The civilian death toll in the 2014 conflict was 1492 to 6.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    edited November 2017
    So the civilian death toll should be more even? Maybe they should let Hamas blow up a couple of hospitals to even things out.

    That's not a valid argument as far am I'm concerned. There is no way to prove how many Israeli lives were saved and without knowing that there's no way to judge whether the responses are justified. Without the attacks from Hamas and other terrorist organizations I'd say the civilian death toll would be approximately 0-0...
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367

    I'd agree on almost every point, except for one: if you are in fact the good guy, you do not in fact kill human shields. Just because human shields make it harder to kill your enemies doesn't mean you get to shoot them.

    Killing civilians isn't okay, even if it is convenient.

    Hamas is scum for using human shields. But Hamas being guilty of using human shields doesn't mean the human shields are guilty of being enemy combatants.

    Put it this way: if you're at a bank when it gets robbed and the robbers use you as a human shield, how do you feel about the police shooting you?

    Using your own citizens as human shields is a relatively new phenomenon. Imagine if any if the combatants in say WW2 had tried that. I don't think Germans would've held back if the Soviets had tried to hide behind Russian citizens (or vice-versa). The fact that this works at all is a testament to how much progress has been made in the last 75 years...
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    For about 15 years now, my view on the Israel/Palestine situation has been this: it is only a matter of time before that conflict is taken to its logical conclusion and they fight it out to the last person standing, winner takes all. Anything short of that--peace talks, cease-fire agreements, etc--only delays the inevitable because there is no more logical reason for them to be fighting. At this point, it isn't political or economic or land-based. No, at this point it is personal and neither side is willing to forgive and forget the past.

    I don't care what your motivations are for being in a conflict but if you are using human shields, hiding your weapons and/or fighters behind schools and hospitals, then you are automatically wrong. If my attack takes out innocent civilians along with you then their innocent blood is on *your* hands, not mine, because I am not the one who put them in harm's way.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2017
    Al Franken is going to need to step down over this photo. And that is painful for me to type as a native Minnesotan and as one of the few people I actually admired up to this point. Not good. He should resign.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I can really distill most of my concerns with Israel/Palestine to a few quick points; it has lots of parallels with the USA's displacement of Native Americans actually, which I'm more familiar with.

    1. There is a collossal power imbalance in Israel's favour. Israel can essentially kill Palestinians with impunity, and with little complaint from the international community. Yes, there are some that take issue, but the majority don't care.
    2. Palestinians are at best an underclass with less rights and privileges. They are not valued even close to as highly as a jewish citizen is.
    3. Both sides have a large vocal minority that doesn't want peace. In Israel these people push the settlement agenda, while the Palestinians are the guys shooting rockets. Both need to be ostracized and or criminalized.
    4. Israel gets gobs of assistance from the international community, while Palestinians are disenfranchised and in poverty.

    The Israelis have the power to push for peace imho due to having all the power, specifically because there is little the Palestinians can do that matters. With so little international censure/pressure I doubt they'll bother, as Israel won't even stop spreading settlements in other people's land. If Israel presently would learn compassion, there could be peace imo.

    Personally, I'm not anywhere near as confident that Israel would still have as big of an advantage vs neighbouring countries in a war today... They certainly did well enough in the past, but if I were Israel I would be much more interested in trying to cooperate with my neighbours.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2017
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  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,297

    Al Franken is going to need to step down over this photo. And that is painful for me to type as a native Minnesotan and as one of the few people I actually admired up to this point. Not good. He should resign.

    Agreed. Pretty damning. Liked him otherwise, but he the photo is pretty damning. Should resign.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    One of the biggest criticisms that pro-Israel folks have about the prospect of Israel championing the peace process is that the Palestinians won't reciprocate. Israel's defenders often point out that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza before, and yet the local Palestinians did not respond in kind; Israel still faces hostility from Gaza. The idea is that Israel has attempted peace, and peace has failed. A lot of Palestinians feel the same way, that Israel will keep fighting them no matter what they do.

    The idea makes sense on the surface, but we've never really seen a true peace movement. The best we've had are temporary ceasefires and temporarily decreased settlement building. You can say "peace has failed" because once we went a couple of weeks without bombing each other, or you can say "war has failed" because both sides have been in a state of perpetual war for 50 years and yet the conflict rages on.

    I'm actually pretty optimistic about this trend of seeing various powerful men accused of sexual assault or sexual harassment in Franken's case. It's disturbing that the behavior is so incredibly prevalent, but the issue has never been front-page news until very recently. People are taking it much more seriously, and men who abuse their power are being forced to admit it and apologize, lest they lose their careers.

    I'm upset about Franken. I considered him a basically conscientious guy, but it's true: power corrupts people. Hopefully increased scrutiny and stronger retribution (the threat of a career-ending scandal) will stop this kind of behavior, or at least curtail it.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Who is Al Franken?
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 523
    edited November 2017
    ThacoBell said:

    Who is Al Franken?

    Junior senator from Minnesota and former SNL cast member and writer.

    Since the incident took place while Franken was a comedian, I believe he should resign from comedy.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited November 2017
    Franken renounced comedy when he became a senator. The idea was that he needed people to know they could take his words seriously, and not suspect he was joking, if he was in politics.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2017

    One of the biggest criticisms that pro-Israel folks have about the prospect of Israel championing the peace process is that the Palestinians won't reciprocate. Israel's defenders often point out that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza before, and yet the local Palestinians did not respond in kind; Israel still faces hostility from Gaza. The idea is that Israel has attempted peace, and peace has failed. A lot of Palestinians feel the same way, that Israel will keep fighting them no matter what they do.

    The idea makes sense on the surface, but we've never really seen a true peace movement. The best we've had are temporary ceasefires and temporarily decreased settlement building. You can say "peace has failed" because once we went a couple of weeks without bombing each other, or you can say "war has failed" because both sides have been in a state of perpetual war for 50 years and yet the conflict rages on.

    I'm actually pretty optimistic about this trend of seeing various powerful men accused of sexual assault or sexual harassment in Franken's case. It's disturbing that the behavior is so incredibly prevalent, but the issue has never been front-page news until very recently. People are taking it much more seriously, and men who abuse their power are being forced to admit it and apologize, lest they lose their careers.

    I'm upset about Franken. I considered him a basically conscientious guy, but it's true: power corrupts people. Hopefully increased scrutiny and stronger retribution (the threat of a career-ending scandal) will stop this kind of behavior, or at least curtail it.

    I've been monitoring liberal reaction to this all morning. Almost everyone is saddened and pissed, and most are calling for him to step down. From a cold, nakedly politcal point of view, the best thing the Democrats can do is give up Franken. Franken himself should understand this. If he goes before the end of the weekend, it will force the conversation back on just why the hell we aren't talking about Trump's 20 accusers.

    Also, note to Dems. In this post-Weinstein climate, nominating any male for the Presidency seems like a ticking time bomb. Nominate two females for President and Vice President in 2020. The resistance to Trump is not only women voters, but women running for office.
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