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The "WHY" of The Last Jedi. **Spoilers**

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  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    bob_veng said:

    there are at least seven ways the story could have turned out but "...grows to be an amazingly powerful and wise character ... the courageous hero everyone in all of the galaxy knows they can count on and will always be there for them. " ain't one of 'em, because there's no story in that story

    What???

    So there's no story in BG then?
    The moment you find out you're a Bhaalspawn, the story ends because we know the ending.

    The phrase is hero's "journey".
    It's not about the end it's about how you get there, that makes the story.
    Everybody already knows the ending (unless you live in a cave and have never read a story).

    Rey is the main character, unless you (anybody) was under say, 7yo, nobody for a moment believes that she will not make it through to the end.
    Disney is not going to kill her off, I know this, you know this. You knew it with the advanced publicity before we had watched a minute of the film.
    But now you're saying we have to "pretend" we don't know the outcome?
    That TLJ was subverting the ending, which of course it wasn't because it ends with guff about, "we will rebuild".

    And not understanding that is possibly where they have gone wrong with Rey, she has no journey. No trials to overcome, nothing to learn.

    TLJ fails because it failed to create a believable journey. The ending is immaterial.


    BelgarathMTH
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    The phrase is "suspension of disbelief." And with suspension of disbelief in hand, I found the Last Jedi to be a perfectly believable journey.
    Balrog99
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147

    The phrase is "suspension of disbelief." And with suspension of disbelief in hand, I found the Last Jedi to be a perfectly believable journey.

    "Your" suspension of disbelief, not mine.

    The phrase doesn't indicate that everybody should/must achieve the same levels of suspension of disbelief.

    The only thing I know about you is that you play BG. And I think it would be fair to say that both of us are able to achieve broadly the same "suspension of disbelief" in that instance in order to enjoy the game.

    I find it disappointing that you would suggest that that's something I have a problem with or am unfamiliar with because we have differing views on a different product.
    semiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited January 2018
    @UnderstandMouseMagic: Oh, no, not at all. I thought it sounded like you were speaking for the fandom at large, that TLJ failed to create a story that people in general would find believable, as opposed to a story that was only believable for some people like me. I thought you were making a broader claim than you apparently were. My apologies if I've misread your post.
    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @semiticgod

    I think it's a problem with commenting on the internet full stop. Posts do tend to read like they apply to the whole world. :D

    To clarify.

    Yes of course you need suspension of disbelief.
    But I'd say that each person brings a different perspective of where the level is met or fails to meet.

    Any work of fiction will ultimately be see as good or bad overall as to which side the majority fall on. Or which side the majority want to fall on. That "want" is important, the better, more cohesive, more exciting, more engaging ect. the piece of fiction is, the lower the bar for suspension of disbelif will be applied.

    So BG, child of the God of Murder, no problem, I'm there, makes perfect sense to me.

    I think I got "huffy" because I thought you were implying that I didn't understand the concept.
    Sorry if that was wrong.

    semiticgoddess
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    Why did Disney make The Last Jedi? Because they wanted to make a great Star Wars movie, and, in the process, make over a billion dollars in box office and merchandising. They hired a fantastic writer/director who didn't just do a re-tread of Empire. Yes, Luke's character defied expectations. He wasn't just a carbon copy of old Ben Kenobi. Rian Johnson gave us a Luke with depth of character and a powerful arc. He also showed the world what a damn good actor Mark Hamill is.

    As far as financial performance, The Last Jedi has performed exactly as one would expect for the middle movie of a Star Wars trilogy. The Empire Strikes Back box office (from the initial 1980 release) was $210 million vs $310 million for Star Wars (1977 box office), so about 68%. Similarly, Attack of the Clones box office is ~65% that of Phantom Menace ($650 million vs $1 billion). The Last Jedi is currently on a trajectory for about $1.3 billion in box office, compared to Force Awakens $2 billion box office, i.e., about 65% of TFA's box office total.

    The Last Jedi is currently #10 on the All Time Worldwide Box Office list, about $2 million behind Frozen. It will likely end up at #9 or #8 on that list.

    http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/
    semiticgoddessBalrog99
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    I don't even know if we can really judge "The Last Jedi" in totality until Episode IX comes out and wraps up the story. We are missing the last 1/3rd of the plot. Regardless, within a few months, we'll like have some kind of dust-up about the Han Solo movie, which if you believe the media reports, sounds like one of the most tortured productions ever. My guess is that Ron Howard's pedigree will pull through, and it will be solidly entertaining.
    JoenSo
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @AstroBryGuy

    " They hired a fantastic writer/director who didn't just do a re-tread of Empire "

    You have to be joking.

    Training at a remote location, check
    Cloud city, (with betrayal) check
    Throne room scene, check
    Battle on Hoth, check

    Ooops I forgot, salt not snow, makes sooo much difference
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I don't know much about the Empire Strikes Back, but the locations don't matter nearly as much as the events and the characters. Rey is very different from Luke, Kylo Ren is very different from Vader, old Luke is very different from Yoda and Obi-wan, and I don't know of anyone from the original trilogy who resembles Finn or Rose. The entire plotline with Holdo and Poe was also very new. The important thing is what happens, not where it happens.
    ThacoBell
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    edited January 2018


    Training at a remote location, check
    Cloud city, (with betrayal) check
    Throne room scene, check
    Battle on Hoth, check
    Ooops I forgot, salt not snow, makes sooo much difference

    Here, especially for you I made a poem for the first time in my life:


    Oh, cherrypick this, Oh cherrypick that!
    I know that's really dishonest
    But I don't give a c...!


    PS. Also you're strawmaning a lot.
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    You can't accuse TLJ for leaving people indifferent at least.
    BelgarathMTH
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    To be more exact:
    -Movie starts with rebels having to evacuate their base, heroes launch a counterattack against Empire forces to cover the evacuees.

    - Force Hero goes to a isolated place to meet with a hermit teacher to learn about their Force powers.

    - Force Hero has mystical vision about Their True Self in a Dark Side place that the teacher tells them not to go to.

    - Force Hero defies their teacher and leaves before they are ready.

    - Force Hero meets with Sith Lord. Sith Lord reveals their true inheritance and offers them to rule the Galaxy by their side. Force Hero refuses and retreats.

    - Other Heroes, on the run from the Empire, goes to meet with somebody they think they can trust, but who ultimately betrays them.

    - Other Heroes are captured by the Empire, but manage to escape.

    - We have a second repeat of the Battle of Hoth scenes in one movie where the outmatched and outgunned rebels have to launch another counter attack on a Very White Aesthetics Planet with their shitty, outclassed vehicles.

    The whole plot is an almost exact copy of tESB. Rey's "arc" is plot point by plot point identical to Luke's. The only main differences is that nobody remains in the enemy's hands at the end of the movie like Solo did, and if you want to be generous, that at the end Force Hero shows up to rescue the Other Heroes instead of the other way around. What a huge subversion you guys I totally did not see that coming the director is a cinematic genius!!!!1!

    So in short. Disney keeps trying to sell this as something new but what we actually get is the exact same as we already had, except not as good. The whole "it's something we've never seen before!" rhetoric is nothing but empty corporate bullshit. What they're actually saying is "Destroy the Past, so that we can sell it to you over, over and over again!" Star Wars has always been famous (not to mention ridiculed) for it's huge merchandising prospects, but this time it's literally consumerism applied to the creative aspect, not just profiting from it.
    UnderstandMouseMagicBelgarathMTH
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    The subversion lies in themes.
    ThacoBellBelgarathMTH
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    scriver said:


    - Force Hero goes to a isolated place to meet with a hermit teacher to learn about their Force powers.

    Force hero did that in previous movie, if you weren't paying attention.
    scriver said:


    - Force Hero goes to a isolated place to meet with a hermit teacher to learn about their Force powers.

    Context is utterly different. This is not trial, this is direct disobedience.
    scriver said:

    Force Hero defies their teacher and leaves before they are ready.

    True, but the Force Hero does so becase The Force Hero started bonding with The Villain and believes Villain can be redeemed. That's different reason than the Hermit Teacher's 20 years ago.
    scriver said:

    Force Hero meets with Sith Lord. Sith Lord reveals their true inheritance and offers them to rule the Galaxy by their side. Force Hero refuses and retreats.

    Force Hero doesn't meet the Sith Lord, since these are extinct at this point. Emperor dies by the Villain's hand, but that's a detail utterly unworthy of mentioning, because that would indicate that it differs from your favourite part of the trilogy. Otherwise, point to you.
    scriver said:


    - Other Heroes, on the run from the Empire, goes to meet with somebody they think they can trust, but who ultimately betrays them.

    Other Heroes fail to contact with someone who they can trust. Instead make a deal with untrustworthy person, who's here for profit, not choosing one side or the other.
    second repeat of the Battle of Hoth scenes in one movie where the outmatched and outgunned rebels have to launch another counter attack on a Very White Aesthetics Planet with their shitty, outclassed vehicles.
    This was not repeat of the Battle of Hoth. It was a last stand with a barely working equipment. Heroes are losing any hope for survival. If it wasn't for the Hermit Teacher, they would surely died and you know it.
    scriver said:


    The whole plot is an almost exact copy of tESB. Rey's "arc" is plot point by plot point identical to Luke's. The only main differences is that nobody remains in the enemy's hands at the end of the movie like Solo did, and if you want to be generous, that at the end Force Hero shows up to rescue the Other Heroes instead of the other way around. What a huge subversion you guys I totally did not see that coming the director is a cinematic genius!!!!1!

    That is if you ignore the themes, character arcs or even the pacing of both movies. Rey's arc is not the same as Luke. Luke is The Hero of Prophecy thing, since his old folk failed at this. Rey is no one who just happens to be in the particular place on the right time and her involvement is her decision alone. Furthermore, Rey has no family connection to the villain, so her trying to turn hin back is result of understanding him and bonding with him.
    scriver said:


    So in short. Disney keeps trying to sell this as something new but what we actually get is the exact same as we already had, except not as good. The whole "it's something we've never seen before!" rhetoric is nothing but empty corporate bullshit. What they're actually saying is "Destroy the Past, so that we can sell it to you over, over and over again!" Star Wars has always been famous (not to mention ridiculed) for it's huge merchandising prospects, but this time it's literally consumerism applied to the creative aspect, not just profiting from it.

    Citation needed. For now I see the early stages of grief.
    ThacoBellArtona
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    What I'm noticing in almost every discussion about TLJ, is that detractors seem to have an almost laser focus on the ACTIONS of the film, wheras the the defenders of it have the same focus on the THEMES. With each side seeming to exclude entire portions of the films makeup, its almost like people really are watching different movies.
    JoenSoBelgarathMTH
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    O_Bruce said:


    Training at a remote location, check
    Cloud city, (with betrayal) check
    Throne room scene, check
    Battle on Hoth, check
    Ooops I forgot, salt not snow, makes sooo much difference

    Here, especially for you I made a poem for the first time in my life:


    Oh, cherrypick this, Oh cherrypick that!
    I know that's really dishonest
    But I don't give a c...!


    PS. Also you're strawmaning a lot.
    How is this a defence of the film rather than a rather snide attack on me?




  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    This is not defence of the film, nor it is attack on you. I do call you on cherrypicking things to better serve your argumentation. I wanted to do it in humoristic way, but apparently I failed. I'm sorry if offence was taken.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    ThacoBell said:

    What I'm noticing in almost every discussion about TLJ, is that detractors seem to have an almost laser focus on the ACTIONS of the film, wheras the the defenders of it have the same focus on the THEMES. With each side seeming to exclude entire portions of the films makeup, its almost like people really are watching different movies.

    I'd agree to an extent.

    The theme of the film is "failure" according to Johnson.
    But the contrivances created to ensure those failures, for me, simply don't work.

    So it's difficult to discuss the "theme" because I don't feel the film has achieved that. Has managed to overcome the obvious string pulling to get to the point where you can discuss the "theme".

    Unless of course it's being ultra clever and the film itself being a failure to cover it's workings is part of the theme of failure.
    Very meta.


  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,173

    @AstroBryGuy

    " They hired a fantastic writer/director who didn't just do a re-tread of Empire "

    You have to be joking.

    Training at a remote location, check
    Cloud city, (with betrayal) check
    Throne room scene, check
    Battle on Hoth, check

    Ooops I forgot, salt not snow, makes sooo much difference

    One interesting aspect of the retreading is that the characters in this universe are also familiar with the original Star Wars movies as stories. So Rey is consciously attempting to emulate Luke's turning of Vader, and Kylo Ren and Snoke's relationship is predicated on the question of how and when betrayal will occur. Someone pointed out to me that Ren may view himself as the hero in this story, after all he's the Skywalker... So I think some repetition & playing with the meta-narrative was inevitable. If anything it seemed to stuff Empire & Return into the same movie to give some freedom to the third chapter...

    I'll miss Thrawn from the Zahn novels, it was nice to have a non-Jedi genius adversary.
    JoenSoArtonaThacoBellBelgarathMTH
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