I've always thought that one of NWN's weaknesses was its party system. Sure it works perfectly if you're partying up with a bunch of friends (good work Trent in that regard), but it's poorly set up for single players. I generally played NWN alone, though now with the EE coming out I may play with some friends. I think the best course of action would be to give modules an option of having full party control or not. I'd prefer to play the campaigns with full control of my companions.
And here is the problem of the skein! and I repeat, many old players want to revamp the party system, but another side wants to leave like that, pushing BD to create content and I repeat ...
... But in addition, what's wrong with improving this system for basic campaigns? we are not asking to completely disrupt the system I just say it would be better if the HoTU system is extended to SoU and OC to have a single system for all the campaigns as it should be, NWN2 has had its party system equal to all the campaigns (SoZ also added the ability to use custom characters in the party even at the beginning IWD style game), so why do I send this? no wonder the moon (and I think other people do not ask for the moon).
There already is a cool nwn companion hack out there. There are premade henchmen but you can simply load up your fav character and add him to the table. Then load up the game you are playing and make them a henchmen. It hasn’t broken anything yet.
Yes, this is what nwn really needs incorporated into its game (as well as henchmen ai fix). If you can get it up to nwn2 standards , hats off.
The system you are talking about and what you find in SoZ as already mentioned before by me in the quote of @gugulug5000 that in the end and a bit of an evolution of the IWD party system if you think about it, with the fact that in addition to using other 3 custom characters that follow you and you can set a name to your group "The Merry Jugglers" (to make a quote ).
But that from my point of view this should be "optional", to make sure that those who want to play without a companion who follows him is not forced to use it, and of course ... even for those who use their companions etc ... have to remove the penalty group experience I find it a bit absurd as a thing (I did not know even that there was that penalty), so I repeat ...
"the most logical solution and find a meeting point with Treant make him understand that at least the party system must be revisited for all campaigns and premium modules, and then to find a balance between those who play alone campaigns vs. those who play alone with AI comrades vs who plays in MP with friends"
I was hoping they would be able to have a full party system like nwn2 but last weeks livestream gave me the impression that it isn’t something they want to implement
I was hoping they would be able to have a full party system like nwn2 but last weeks livestream gave me the impression that it isn’t something they want to implement
It does seem to be a sticking point with Trent, though given the size of the single player base, and sheer number of single player modules compared to everything else, I genuinely don’t understand why.
As much as I don't personally want it, I'm not sure why people would be totally opposed to its addition. I feel it should be added for those who want to use it if it won't detract too much from development elsewhere.
As much as I don't personally want it, I'm not sure why people would be totally opposed to its addition. I feel it should be added for those who want to use it if it won't detract too much from development elsewhere.
That is exactly it. There already is a henchmen override that does this for nwn. You need to have a child always walking with you through your adventures (which is in itself very creepy). If they could implement a hard coded one that works better ... A+. I hear Trent say that it isn’t the intention of the game. Ok. But could it be? That may not be his intention but there are people out there that may want this feature. What would it break?
That is what is sounds like, I guess. But then why ask us for ideas? If I have to play another module through with aribeth or deekin I am going to flip. Why is friggin deekin apart of the vision?!
Have us be able to make our own characters in the character creator and bring it in like in toms henchmen hak. But if BD does it I don’t have a creepy kid following me around
i'd be fine with just having control of my character but things i would like :
1. i would like to choose what spells spellcaster henchman to get, even if it was "i would like you to prepare more healing spells, i would like you to prepare more buffing spells, debuffing spells, conjuration spells, etc etc.
2. i'd line Linu to prepare ressurection!!!!!!!!! or anyone who has a raise dead, either scroll, spell or rod, let them use them!!!
it makes sense why CHARNAME in baldur's gate can't be revived, but in NWN there is no special circumstance apart from henchman not liking me as much as they say they do.
I like the option of having indoor ceilings. I would also like the option of having the mini map turned off for an area, so I can create a maze a person can get lost in.
Trent continues to make the same (unconvincing, IMO) arguments that basically amount to "NWN should be primarily multiplayer and singleplayer FPC is badwrongfun."
I guess that doesn't leave much room for optimism on the FPC front.
If we cannot have full party control in the original campaigns, at least Beamdog should make a package (scripts and necessary blueprints, if applicable) that's easy for anyone who want to make a full party-control-based module to use in their modules, without having to resort to old and mostly out-dated custom content that works only partially by today's standards. E.g. like the system in NWN2-SoZ.
Full party control would open a whole new door for NWN to be able to offer content for the huge crowd that like their RPG's single player only.
I'm in it for the multiplayer PW's, but if someone would make a BG level single player campaign I would definitely play it. But I wouldn't play SP without full party control. In DnD it just feels lacking.
It would also make playing a mage a little easier. Instead of the guy wearing a dress running first into a room, get the guy in full plate. Playing a mage in nwn2 was always easier
Trent continues to make the same (unconvincing, IMO) arguments that basically amount to "NWN should be primarily multiplayer and singleplayer FPC is badwrongfun."
I guess that doesn't leave much room for optimism on the FPC front.
A pity, I dont see much point on getting the EE edition if they dont make the most obvious enhacement. I dont play multi, so I have no reason to buy this edition
It would also make playing a mage a little easier. Instead of the guy wearing a dress running first into a room, get the guy in full plate. Playing a mage in nwn2 was always easier
No, is not. They nerfed to oblivion a lot of defensive spells and offensive spells. Removed Time stop, Mestil's acid sheath, a lot of good spells like Evard's black tentacles become useless, you have no more combat familiars, like Panther and hellhound and the companion IA is terrible. You need your companions in nwn2(solo isn`t viable like nwn1/BG/IWD/Arcanum) and can`t relay on your companion due the awful IA.
"I've played a lot of role playing games in my time. But I don't think I've ever dealt with an AI quite as moronic as what has been made available to us in NWN2. I've gotten into Neverwinter, and things have been fine until then. But once I went into the warehouse the previously bearable AI of the party members just disintegrated into chaos. I've got party members that won't attack even when they are being attacked themselves. I've got party members who despite orders to defend me, will simply stand there as I'm beat senseless." source https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?t=151800
Here is a video showing how Party IA is on nwn2. They stop walking without any reason, refuse to attack the enemy...
Speaking strictly for myself and it’s probably not a popular view, when I played nwn2 and used the fpc it definitely made the game more playable and henchmen more usable but it seemed to cheapen the experience for me somewhat. Where’s before I was 1 guy against ‘the world’ I could now be 4. So instead of thinking for 1 pc, MY pc, I was thinking for 4 and that ruined the immersion a bit for me. But I am old school, and I probably smell. The only reason I mention this cause I’ve been following this convo and all of Trent’s reactions seem to point to a similar frame of mind is all. (Please correct me if I’m wrong) My view on it like most other things I don’t need, make it available for those that want it but allow it to be toggled off.
I'm old-school too, as old-school as a 32 year old dude could be when it comes to RPGs (a youngin, really), and again I will say that I think NWN is good as-is. Just improve the AI. The game offers a unique "single player party" type of adventure, where your companions act on their own behalf and you focus on your character and the "bigger picture" of leading the party. Why change that when it offers a unique experience that's different than the other D&D games?
They can improve this aspect and make it way better, absolutely, because it's not perfect right now. But I'd rather they tried to do that and kept the unique approach then just rearrange the whole thing to make it more like something it was never meant to be.
Besides, if I want full party control I can make a party of 6 in Icewind Dale, or meticulously micromanage 8 or 9 characters in Temple of Elemental Evil or Dungeons & Dragons: Tactics. Is it possible that we can have have different games that offer different experiences and attempt to do different things?
It's like some RPG fans (not talking about anyone here specifically, just something I've noticed online) want all of the games to be the same. They see a RTWP RPG and say, "Make it turn-based!" They see a single player RPG and they say, "Make it full party control!" I don't get it. Are we all just super control freaks when it comes to gaming and need to control every minuscule move of the party?
I try to appreciate all RPG gaming approaches, whether it's an action RPG, a turn-based one, RTWP, single/multi/party/horror/medieval/sci-fi/whatever. There's interesting stuff to find in all these styles and it's cool to me to adapt to and have fun with the different types. Keeps things interesting rather than everything being the same.
Improve the AI, take the single-player aspect that is already there to a higher level and keep the spirit of something unique that separates it from the other RPGs out there in the multiverse. If you guys have to add a feature that helps the player character advise their casters on which spells to memorize, do it. There are tons of ways it could be done. But keep the more hands off" approach while making sure the companions AI is improved by a decent amount so as to not frustrate people by default. It can be done, no doubt about it.
Here's the thing, if they added full party control, it's optional. Even in NWN2 you can just set the AI and let the other characters do whatever they do. But for people who want to play a more tactical single player game, or builders who want to create modules that require more tactical approaches to combat, why not add the option?
For me personally, due to time constraints, I don't play multiplayer, but I can't imagine making the argument don't add multiplayer support because people don't need to play that way.
Here's the thing, if they added full party control, it's optional. Even in NWN2 you can just set the AI and let the other characters do whatever they do. But for people who want to play a more tactical single player game, or builders who want to create modules that require more tactical approaches to combat, why not add the option?
For me personally, due to time constraints, I don't play multiplayer, but I can't imagine making the argument don't add multiplayer support because people don't need to play that way.
What is a "tactical approach"? Only have a party control is enough to have a tactical approach? If i create an undead army and use a negative energy AOE spell to damage enemies while heal my undeads, i an not being tactical, but if i use the same tactic with fully control over my undeads, now i using a "tactical approach"?
I an not saying that Full party control should't be added, only hope that will not be terrible aka nwn2
Funny, I read that and Trent also says the following:
We've targeted a lot of effort to the multiplayer side, but I think a lot of people have underestimated the single player and I think it'll really shine on the single player.
Our goal is that people can go and play the game single player, never go online and never fire up the tool set and they've still got a great gaming experience. If we can hit that, I think we've succeeded.
He says that great singleplayer was also a priority, and he wants people to be able to have a great singleplayer experience. Well, the lack of FPC interferes with that. It's not a great singleplayer experience when modules have to be dumbed down to compensate for the lack of fine control and spellcaster companions are almost completely useless.
I'd also like to remind you of this quote, from one of Lilura's articles:
We added companions into NWN to address playing the game as a single class character and needing access to other skillsets to fully enjoy the game.
Trent admits that D&D doesn't work well for single characters and even says you need multiple skillsets to fully enjoy the game. I agree, which is one of the reasons I want FPC.
Here's another Trent quote from your article that I think is relevant:
And the toolset. No other game has put on a pedestal the way we have. Neverwinter is, as Ray said, built on four parts. The toolset has affected many, many decisions along the way. Tiles. The entire reason to use a tile-based system was for the toolset, for ease of use in creation. We don't want people to have to learn to use an app like 3D Studio Max, if they want to create an adventure. We want people to go in, create an adventure, jump, test it and have fun. That's the sweetest thing about Neverwinter right now, that revision cycle.
One of NWN1's best features is its toolset, and the reason the toolset is so great is that it strikes an excellent balance between power and accessibility. There's really no other game with that kind of balance. This is why I don't consider it a valid argument to dismissively tell people who want FPC to just play another game, because those other games don't have NWN's toolset, so you can't compare them directly. There's literally no game out there that has both FPC and a toolset like NWN's.
I'm old-school too, as old-school as a 32 year old dude could be when it comes to RPGs (a youngin, really), and again I will say that I think NWN is good as-is. Just improve the AI. The game offers a unique "single player party" type of adventure, where your companions act on their own behalf and you focus on your character and the "bigger picture" of leading the party. Why change that when it offers a unique experience that's different than the other D&D games?
We're not asking them to change anything. We're only asking them to add something. Adding FPC as an option wouldn't stop people from playing the game the way it is now if that's what they want to do. It wouldn't stop module creators from making modules where it's just your character. It wouldn't take anything away from anyone. All it would do is allow for more options. It would be pure added value.
They can improve this aspect and make it way better, absolutely, because it's not perfect right now. But I'd rather they tried to do that and kept the unique approach then just rearrange the whole thing to make it more like something it was never meant to be.
It's not only infeasible, but outright impossible, to make AI good enough that one never feels like they'd be better off if they had full control.
Besides, if I want full party control I can make a party of 6 in Icewind Dale, or meticulously micromanage 8 or 9 characters in Temple of Elemental Evil or Dungeons & Dragons: Tactics. Is it possible that we can have have different games that offer different experiences and attempt to do different things?
Okay, but do Icewind Dale and Temple of Elemental Evil have toolsets that just about anyone can use and many people have used to make adventures without having to become experts at game design? Do they offer anywhere near the level of customization that NWN allows?
Yes, different games do different things. However, there is still no game that offers NWN1's moddability alongside FPC. That's why I can't just play something else, and why I don't accept "play something else" as an argument.
It's like some RPG fans (not talking about anyone here specifically, just something I've noticed online) want all of the games to be the same. They see a RTWP RPG and say, "Make it turn-based!" They see a single player RPG and they say, "Make it full party control!"
I can't speak for others, but that's not how this is for me. I like a variety of different RPG types. I like turn-based. I like RTWP. I like Diablo-style Action RPG. In all my RPG experience, however, I haven't found a game that has NWN1's moddability combined with full party control. It's the one type of RPG I would really like to enjoy, but can't, because it doesn't exist. NWNEE looked like a chance for me to maybe finally get that.
He says that great singleplayer was also a priority, and he wants people to be able to have a great singleplayer experience. Well, the lack of FPC interferes with that. It's not a great singleplayer experience when modules have to be dumbed down to compensate for the lack of fine control and spellcaster companions are almost completely useless.
Well, i disagree. I an not saying that full party control shouldn't be added, but you don't need to "dumb down" the game. For example, i don't need full part control to take out this 2 "impossible" dragons at lv 14
In fact, the fact that each class is different makes each "playthrough" unique. Complete the OC(official campaign) with Sorcerer, then With Druid, then Cleric, then install PRC and complete with Dread Necromancer and Psion. Each gameplay is unique. The way to deal with each enemy is unique for each class. In nwn2, you can change the MC class, but not everyone else, so will be almost the same experience also, since they "nerfed" a lot of spells, you need companions and the companion IA is terrible(as i've mentioned), so the NWN2 gameplay is giving the same order over and over again, hopping that they will not stop attacking or walking by no reason.
My unique fear is that full party control will force me to do this boring "micromanagement" 24/7, but i hope that this will not happens and hope that will be added. Also, some modules in nwn1 allow you to change your henchman eqquip. For example? eye of the beholder. I agree that sorcerers should be able to give a +5 sword to a meatshield companion and fighters should be able to chose what spells wiz have prepared. But fully party control should not be awful like in nwn2.
Trent admits that D&D doesn't work well for single characters and even says you need multiple skillsets to fully enjoy the game. I agree, which is one of the reasons I want FPC.
I have completed the game a lot of times solo. No henchman(unless you count summons + familiar), there are a trap? Resist damage + resist elements(or similar spells). A lock? knock. I need a meatshield? Helmed horror and my familiar. I don't play a lot with melee characters, but i immagine that a barbarian with 12 hit dice + con mod will have no problems bashing locks and taking "trap damage" or making fortitude saves.
Nwn2 has a solution. Remove thinks from overide or hak directories. Same with nwn I think Sometimes you get contradicting commands/scripts and they just stand there. Best solution is to completely control them
As far as the OC goes, FPC would kind of be overkill and make things too easy so I don't get the arguments there. I usually play a high DEX monk build of some kind and can solo pretty much everything I've come across in the OC. Occasionally I'd need one henchmen just so I don't have to use 30 healing potions or what not. That's why the henchmen are there. The only reason to have FPC would be for modules that would be specifically designed for it. And since NWN hasn't had FPC, there aren't really many modules designed for it now. It would just be for stuff going forward if they implemented it. So FPC? Meh. Not my cup of tea. Not a priority. If it was something Beamdog could implement easily sure why not. But doesn't seem to be necessary.
Then you don’t need to use them. But the option for people who don’t want to play a full dex monk but a fp of gnome crossbowers is there. Since it is possible to implement and there is a segment of the population that would like it and it isn’t against the purpose of dnd and if you don’t want it you don’t have to use it and the purpose of nwn is customization, then why not?
He says that great singleplayer was also a priority, and he wants people to be able to have a great singleplayer experience. Well, the lack of FPC interferes with that. It's not a great singleplayer experience when modules have to be dumbed down to compensate for the lack of fine control and spellcaster companions are almost completely useless.
Well, i disagree. I an not saying that full party control shouldn't be added, but you don't need to "dumb down" the game. For example, i don't need full part control to take out this 2 "impossible" dragons at lv 14
Because it's an easy encounter. If one of dragons would be replaced with same level wizard he would dispell all your shields and dragon would kill you quite fast.
In fact, the fact that each class is different makes each "playthrough" unique. Complete the OC(official campaign) with Sorcerer, then With Druid, then Cleric, then install PRC and complete with Dread Necromancer and Psion. Each gameplay is unique. The way to deal with each enemy is unique for each class. In nwn2, you can change the MC class, but not everyone else, so will be almost the same experience also, since they "nerfed" a lot of spells, you need companions and the companion IA is terrible(as i've mentioned), so the NWN2 gameplay is giving the same order over and over again, hopping that they will not stop attacking or walking by no reason.
Both main campaign are rather easy, you can finish them without taking any companions. FPC as an option would be ideal for module creators who want to create something more challenging.
My unique fear is that full party control will force me to do this boring "micromanagement" 24/7, but i hope that this will not happens and hope that will be added. Also, some modules in nwn1 allow you to change your henchman eqquip. For example? eye of the beholder. I agree that sorcerers should be able to give a +5 sword to a meatshield companion and fighters should be able to chose what spells wiz have prepared. But fully party control should not be awful like in nwn2.
If you don't have to manage your party during encounter it just means it's a trash encounter and it should be removed/changed for something harder. NWN is not diablo, you shouldn't be have to kill legions of low level enemies. Fewer, but more challenging enemies would be perfect.
Trent admits that D&D doesn't work well for single characters and even says you need multiple skillsets to fully enjoy the game. I agree, which is one of the reasons I want FPC.
I have completed the game a lot of times solo. No henchman(unless you count summons + familiar), there are a trap? Resist damage + resist elements(or similar spells). A lock? knock. I need a meatshield? Helmed horror and my familiar. I don't play a lot with melee characters, but i immagine that a barbarian with 12 hit dice + con mod will have no problems bashing locks and taking "trap damage" or making fortitude saves.
As I said before, main campaign is really easy and it shouldn't be used as any kind of example. If you can tank damage from traps, traps are useless. They should force you to have someone in party to disarm them. You can use spells, but spells are limited, so you can't use them on every trap you find. Unless of course you can rest anytime, which is like easy mode.
Here is a video showing how Party IA is on nwn2. They stop walking without any reason, refuse to attack the enemy...
I have had henchmen refuse to attack in NWN too. Except without party control, there was no solution to that issue, as no command would get them to attack; they would just stand there and do nothing.
Simple order "attack nearest", used in tons of different mods, tons of modules and worked fine.
Because it's an easy encounter. If one of dragons would be replaced with same level wizard he would dispell all your shields and dragon would kill you quite fast.
Scrolls of time stop(since i can't naturally cast tier 9 spells at level 10-15) will give me time to recast my defensive spells. Used this tactic against enemies that can dispel my defenses. Like Mephistopheles and Klauth
Both main campaign are rather easy, you can finish them without taking any companions. FPC as an option would be ideal for module creators who want to create something more challenging.
In Eye of Beholder, i have faced a Lich at lv 8. Was the hardest encounter that i've played. Used a Henchman + a Familiar + a summon and almost died...
If you don't have to manage your party during encounter it just means it's a trash encounter and it should be removed/changed for something harder. NWN is not diablo, you shouldn't be have to kill legions of low level enemies. Fewer, but more challenging enemies would be perfect.
The same "no party control = diablo" argument.... Seriously. Is Arcanum similar to Diablo? If i play solo, is BG1/2 and IWD1/2 similar to Diablo? You have no skill trees, dice rolls, skill checks, etc, etc, etc in nwn1. Is not diablo only because you can't fully control your party at the same way that a solo playthrough of iwd1/iwd2/bg1/bg2 or a normal gameplay of arcanum isn't nothing compared to diablo.
Look to this solo gameplays of IWD. They are playing Diablo because they don't need to micromange his party? Even if the game is completely different from d2?
As I said before, main campaign is really easy and it shouldn't be used as any kind of example. If you can tank damage from traps, traps are useless. They should force you to have someone in party to disarm them. You can use spells, but spells are limited, so you can't use them on every trap you find. Unless of course you can rest anytime, which is like easy mode.
No, if you take damage, you are more vulnerable to enemy and more likely to lose an encounter. About spells, you have scrolls and some spells have longer duration; so you can deal with traps.
EDIT : I an not saying that full party control should't be added. In fact should be, but i have some "fears", if they will destroy the IA in process or nerf arcane casters to Oblivion like nwn2.
Comments
... But in addition, what's wrong with improving this system for basic campaigns? we are not asking to completely disrupt the system I just say it would be better if the HoTU system is extended to SoU and OC to have a single system for all the campaigns as it should be, NWN2 has had its party system equal to all the campaigns (SoZ also added the ability to use custom characters in the party even at the beginning IWD style game), so why do I send this? no wonder the moon (and I think other people do not ask for the moon). The system you are talking about and what you find in SoZ as already mentioned before by me in the quote of @gugulug5000 that in the end and a bit of an evolution of the IWD party system if you think about it, with the fact that in addition to using other 3 custom characters that follow you and you can set a name to your group "The Merry Jugglers" (to make a quote ).
But that from my point of view this should be "optional", to make sure that those who want to play without a companion who follows him is not forced to use it, and of course ... even for those who use their companions etc ... have to remove the penalty group experience I find it a bit absurd as a thing (I did not know even that there was that penalty), so I repeat ...
"the most logical solution and find a meeting point with Treant make him understand that at least the party system must be revisited for all campaigns and premium modules, and then to find a balance between those who play alone campaigns vs. those who play alone with AI comrades vs who plays in MP with friends"
There already is a henchmen override that does this for nwn. You need to have a child always walking with you through your adventures (which is in itself very creepy).
If they could implement a hard coded one that works better ... A+.
I hear Trent say that it isn’t the intention of the game. Ok. But could it be?
That may not be his intention but there are people out there that may want this feature.
What would it break?
1) vision
2) development resources
But then why ask us for ideas?
If I have to play another module through with aribeth or deekin I am going to flip.
Why is friggin deekin apart of the vision?!
Have us be able to make our own characters in the character creator and bring it in like in toms henchmen hak.
But if BD does it I don’t have a creepy kid following me around
i'd be fine with just having control of my character but things i would like :
1. i would like to choose what spells spellcaster henchman to get, even if it was "i would like you to prepare more healing spells, i would like you to prepare more buffing spells, debuffing spells, conjuration spells, etc etc.
2. i'd line Linu to prepare ressurection!!!!!!!!! or anyone who has a raise dead, either scroll, spell or rod, let them use them!!!
it makes sense why CHARNAME in baldur's gate can't be revived, but in NWN there is no special circumstance apart from henchman not liking me as much as they say they do.
I like the option of having indoor ceilings. I would also like the option of having the mini map turned off for an area, so I can create a maze a person can get lost in.#edit: Wrong thread sorry.
Trent continues to make the same (unconvincing, IMO) arguments that basically amount to "NWN should be primarily multiplayer and singleplayer FPC is badwrongfun."
I guess that doesn't leave much room for optimism on the FPC front.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2002/04/24/neverwinter-nights-interview-2?page=1
I'm in it for the multiplayer PW's, but if someone would make a BG level single player campaign I would definitely play it. But I wouldn't play SP without full party control. In DnD it just feels lacking.
Instead of the guy wearing a dress running first into a room, get the guy in full plate.
Playing a mage in nwn2 was always easier
"I've played a lot of role playing games in my time. But I don't think I've ever dealt with an AI quite as moronic as what has been made available to us in NWN2. I've gotten into Neverwinter, and things have been fine until then. But once I went into the warehouse the previously bearable AI of the party members just disintegrated into chaos. I've got party members that won't attack even when they are being attacked themselves. I've got party members who despite orders to defend me, will simply stand there as I'm beat senseless."
source https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?t=151800
Here is a video showing how Party IA is on nwn2. They stop walking without any reason, refuse to attack the enemy...
My view on it like most other things I don’t need, make it available for those that want it but allow it to be toggled off.
They can improve this aspect and make it way better, absolutely, because it's not perfect right now. But I'd rather they tried to do that and kept the unique approach then just rearrange the whole thing to make it more like something it was never meant to be.
Besides, if I want full party control I can make a party of 6 in Icewind Dale, or meticulously micromanage 8 or 9 characters in Temple of Elemental Evil or Dungeons & Dragons: Tactics. Is it possible that we can have have different games that offer different experiences and attempt to do different things?
It's like some RPG fans (not talking about anyone here specifically, just something I've noticed online) want all of the games to be the same. They see a RTWP RPG and say, "Make it turn-based!" They see a single player RPG and they say, "Make it full party control!" I don't get it. Are we all just super control freaks when it comes to gaming and need to control every minuscule move of the party?
I try to appreciate all RPG gaming approaches, whether it's an action RPG, a turn-based one, RTWP, single/multi/party/horror/medieval/sci-fi/whatever. There's interesting stuff to find in all these styles and it's cool to me to adapt to and have fun with the different types. Keeps things interesting rather than everything being the same.
Improve the AI, take the single-player aspect that is already there to a higher level and keep the spirit of something unique that separates it from the other RPGs out there in the multiverse. If you guys have to add a feature that helps the player character advise their casters on which spells to memorize, do it. There are tons of ways it could be done. But keep the more hands off" approach while making sure the companions AI is improved by a decent amount so as to not frustrate people by default. It can be done, no doubt about it.
For me personally, due to time constraints, I don't play multiplayer, but I can't imagine making the argument don't add multiplayer support because people don't need to play that way.
I an not saying that Full party control should't be added, only hope that will not be terrible aka nwn2
I'd also like to remind you of this quote, from one of Lilura's articles: Trent admits that D&D doesn't work well for single characters and even says you need multiple skillsets to fully enjoy the game. I agree, which is one of the reasons I want FPC.
Here's another Trent quote from your article that I think is relevant: One of NWN1's best features is its toolset, and the reason the toolset is so great is that it strikes an excellent balance between power and accessibility. There's really no other game with that kind of balance. This is why I don't consider it a valid argument to dismissively tell people who want FPC to just play another game, because those other games don't have NWN's toolset, so you can't compare them directly. There's literally no game out there that has both FPC and a toolset like NWN's.
We're not asking them to change anything. We're only asking them to add something. Adding FPC as an option wouldn't stop people from playing the game the way it is now if that's what they want to do. It wouldn't stop module creators from making modules where it's just your character. It wouldn't take anything away from anyone. All it would do is allow for more options. It would be pure added value.
It's not only infeasible, but outright impossible, to make AI good enough that one never feels like they'd be better off if they had full control.
Okay, but do Icewind Dale and Temple of Elemental Evil have toolsets that just about anyone can use and many people have used to make adventures without having to become experts at game design? Do they offer anywhere near the level of customization that NWN allows?
Yes, different games do different things. However, there is still no game that offers NWN1's moddability alongside FPC. That's why I can't just play something else, and why I don't accept "play something else" as an argument.
I can't speak for others, but that's not how this is for me. I like a variety of different RPG types. I like turn-based. I like RTWP. I like Diablo-style Action RPG. In all my RPG experience, however, I haven't found a game that has NWN1's moddability combined with full party control. It's the one type of RPG I would really like to enjoy, but can't, because it doesn't exist. NWNEE looked like a chance for me to maybe finally get that.
In fact, the fact that each class is different makes each "playthrough" unique. Complete the OC(official campaign) with Sorcerer, then With Druid, then Cleric, then install PRC and complete with Dread Necromancer and Psion. Each gameplay is unique. The way to deal with each enemy is unique for each class. In nwn2, you can change the MC class, but not everyone else, so will be almost the same experience also, since they "nerfed" a lot of spells, you need companions and the companion IA is terrible(as i've mentioned), so the NWN2 gameplay is giving the same order over and over again, hopping that they will not stop attacking or walking by no reason.
My unique fear is that full party control will force me to do this boring "micromanagement" 24/7, but i hope that this will not happens and hope that will be added. Also, some modules in nwn1 allow you to change your henchman eqquip. For example? eye of the beholder. I agree that sorcerers should be able to give a +5 sword to a meatshield companion and fighters should be able to chose what spells wiz have prepared. But fully party control should not be awful like in nwn2. I have completed the game a lot of times solo. No henchman(unless you count summons + familiar), there are a trap? Resist damage + resist elements(or similar spells). A lock? knock. I need a meatshield? Helmed horror and my familiar. I don't play a lot with melee characters, but i immagine that a barbarian with 12 hit dice + con mod will have no problems bashing locks and taking "trap damage" or making fortitude saves.
Same with nwn I think
Sometimes you get contradicting commands/scripts and they just stand there.
Best solution is to completely control them
The only reason to have FPC would be for modules that would be specifically designed for it. And since NWN hasn't had FPC, there aren't really many modules designed for it now. It would just be for stuff going forward if they implemented it.
So FPC? Meh. Not my cup of tea. Not a priority. If it was something Beamdog could implement easily sure why not. But doesn't seem to be necessary.
But the option for people who don’t want to play a full dex monk but a fp of gnome crossbowers is there.
Since it is possible to implement and there is a segment of the population that would like it and it isn’t against the purpose of dnd and if you don’t want it you don’t have to use it and the purpose of nwn is customization, then why not?
As I said before, main campaign is really easy and it shouldn't be used as any kind of example. If you can tank damage from traps, traps are useless. They should force you to have someone in party to disarm them. You can use spells, but spells are limited, so you can't use them on every trap you find. Unless of course you can rest anytime, which is like easy mode.
Look to this solo gameplays of IWD. They are playing Diablo because they don't need to micromange his party? Even if the game is completely different from d2?
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EDIT : I an not saying that full party control should't be added. In fact should be, but i have some "fears", if they will destroy the IA in process or nerf arcane casters to Oblivion like nwn2.