Party control a la NWN2 or BG is my number one feature request for EE. Not just for control during a fight but for the character building.
I've always used OMB's henchmen system too - in fact I used it for the OC the first time I played it, skipping the NPCs completely because, TBH, I more often than not dislike companions. I much prefer to make my own parties. On subsequent plays, and in many other modules I've played, I take module companions and add an extra or two using OHS. When I last played seriously I'd taken to leveling henchman spell casters (yet another great feature of OHS) in such a way so as to limit the spell choices the AI has, ie low number of buff spells, little to no AOE spells etc. With the voice commands you could sort of control things but it'd be far better if it worked like it does in the titles mentioned at the start of this post.
I like the character building part as a compromise. Letting us level them up like pc(picking skill points, feats, spells) Also allow us to go into their character and change their spell selection(before resting).
I'm not sure I like the sound of that. That would mean we have to do the boring stuff (building them up and the existing inventory management) but not the fun stuff we want to be able to do (controlling them in combat).
While it is no help in a single-player environment; it is possible to create one henchmen, and fully control it, using NWNX. In short, NWNX allows a PC to be briefly modified so they can cast/use the SummonFamiliar() function. Once anyone can summon a familiar, other scripting functions can change the default Bat familiar/henchman to any name, description, appearance, and with NWNX - any race, feats, stats, as well. Then the player can "Possess Familiar" on the henchman and control it however they like. I even tested it out with a Cleric familiar/henchman and could memorize and cast spells with it. I have not extensively tested how badly things get messed up when/if the default henchman AI may take over once the creature is unpossessed.
While it would be a ton more work to allow it; this type of system could be greatly expanded by modifying the familiar's conversation file to let the PC talk to it and specify what class(es), skills, feats, spells (if a wizard/sorc/bard), inventory items, equipped items, etc the henchman should have.
Just a few of the drawbacks to this hack though are that you cannot rest as the henchman/familiar, you cannot pickup items, and you cannot view/manipulate its inventory - those are all hardcoded restrictions. Maybe if EE lifted those this could be a more viable alternative to modifying familiars-as-henchman though. But until then, this remains a fairly hacky, and complex, method/workaround to "full party control" (of just one henchman) in a multiplayer-environment only.
I agree with @ildaron . I want better AI for both henchman and for monsters and not Baldur's Gate style full party control. I want battle clerics to charge into combat full bore and healing clerics to heal. I want lawful henchman to be obedient and chaotic ones to be disobedient. I want good henchman to heal me before they heal themselves and evil ones to never heal me unless they feel completely safe. In other words, I want monsters and NPCs to act as much as real people as possible.
But sometimes I just want to yell at the henchman "get out of the way!" So I installed Numos' Minion Command tool in the module that I build. It doesn't give full party command, but it does allow you to move your henchman and pets out of the way as well as regroup. It doesn't work so well during combat which for me personally is more of a feature anyway.
Oh and of course TonyK's HenchAI makes all creatures smarter and gives inventory control to pets. There's also code in there to improve the OC (henchman inventory, better AI, etc.).
One caveat is that when using HenchAI as an override, it can break some modules. So it is better to use it as a builder rather than as a player.
I agree with @ildaron . I want better AI for both henchman and for monsters and not Baldur's Gate style full party control. I want battle clerics to charge into combat full bore and healing clerics to heal. I want lawful henchman to be obedient and chaotic ones to be disobedient. I want good henchman to heal me before they heal themselves and evil ones to never heal me unless they feel completely safe. In other words, I want monsters and NPCs to act as much as real people as possible.
I don't really understand this mindset. I don't understand why you want so many things to be completely out of your control. I think you need to remember that ultimately, NWN is a game, not a holodeck program. If this kind of uncontrolled, chaotic behavior is what you want, it seems like playing with real people in multiplayer would be a better way to get that. In my opinion, what you're talking about would sacrifice too much gameplay in the name of "realism", not to mention that it doesn't really seem technically feasible. I mean, you're basically asking for AI with free will, and in some of those examples, you're asking to have your companions be almost as much of a problem as the enemy is.
But sometimes I just want to yell at the henchman "get out of the way!" So I installed Numos' Minion Command tool in the module that I build. It doesn't give full party command, but it does allow you to move your henchman and pets out of the way as well as regroup. It doesn't work so well during combat which for me personally is more of a feature anyway.
But combat is when you need control the most, because that's when the stakes are highest. Being able to quickly get someone to stop blocking the door is convenient, but it's not life or death.
I have to be honest: Your perspective here is kind of alien to me. You seem to greatly enjoy having a lot of things be out of your hands.
I have to be honest: Your perspective here is kind of alien to me. You seem to greatly enjoy having a lot of things be out of your hands.
I'm all for the option of party control in modules when the builder designs it that way, but Grymlorde's perspective isn't really all that alien to everyone. Personally, I think that having full control over companions can detract from their personalities and rob them of being fleshed out characters with minds and motives of their own. I can team up with a Paladin and force him to murder all the children in a village. I can make a wizard charge into battle and be hilariously slaughtered, totally against his better judgment. Companions become less than real characters and turn into mindless game pieces. Personalities are only expressed in cutscenes, or party banter, but not reflected in the companions' actions.
In PnP D&D, players rarely have full control over every action their NPC companions take, and if they try to do the kinds of things I mentioned above, the DM will almost assuredly intervene. Coming from a PnP background, it is not alien at all to have "a lot of things out of your hands," including micromanagement of NPCs' actions. And it's not even unheard of in other video games either, so it's a bit odd that this view is treated as a curiosity.
I have to be honest: Your perspective here is kind of alien to me. You seem to greatly enjoy having a lot of things be out of your hands.
I'm all for the option of party control in modules when the builder designs it that way, but Grymlorde's perspective isn't really all that alien to everyone. Personally, I think that having full control over companions can detract from their personalities and rob them of being fleshed out characters with minds and motives of their own. I can team up with a Paladin and force him to murder all the children in a village. I can make a wizard charge into battle and be hilariously slaughtered, totally against his better judgment. Companions become less than real characters and turn into mindless game pieces. Personalities are only expressed in cutscenes, or party banter, but not reflected in the companions' actions.
In PnP D&D, players rarely have full control over every action their NPC companions take, and if they try to do the kinds of things I mentioned above, the DM will almost assuredly intervene. Coming from a PnP background, it is not alien at all to have "a lot of things out of your hands," including micromanagement of NPCs' actions. And it's not even unheard of in other video games either, so it's a bit odd that this view is treated as a curiosity.
When you say "I can make a wizard charge into battle and be hilariously slaughtered, totally against his better judgment. Companions become less than real characters and turn into mindless game pieces." I laughed because this is pretty much what the AI does-
The companions act like idiots- The wizzy will use his nukes on trash mobs and charge the boss-
The AI you guys are speaking of would be great but its not feasible- Full party control IS feasible and if you dont like it just dont use it.
Right now the companions are near worthless except as heal bots and buff bots -
Not to mention I can still control them enough to make them walk right into a trap to set it off which is unrealistic as well.
Like someone said, this is a game- You can never get the AI to work the way a henchmen would in D and D and even in D and D Tablet.op the DM will allow you to create tactics and plans.
So yeah- I dont understand this mindset either...You have AI right now that acts like fools and are supposed to be hardened dungeon veterans but the way they act they have no clue about tactics - To be like 'I want the AI to act real but no full control" is a great theory but its not going to happen and would take years to get it to that point when switching on full control would be far easier and better.
I agree with @ildaron . I want better AI for both henchman and for monsters and not Baldur's Gate style full party control. I want battle clerics to charge into combat full bore and healing clerics to heal. I want lawful henchman to be obedient and chaotic ones to be disobedient. I want good henchman to heal me before they heal themselves and evil ones to never heal me unless they feel completely safe. In other words, I want monsters and NPCs to act as much as real people as possible.
My thoughts exactly! Characters can also act according to other "quirks" based on their stat sheet, or even scripted via their character personality (i.e. a story module character that is a bit clumsy, and might accidentally hit you with a crossbow once in awhile, *Swordflight, wink wink*. )
I think more AI tie-ins to stats, talents and feats would be great. If a character has Knowledge of Undead, for example, they could get a boost to fighting against them, as if their knowledge helped them identify a weakness or advantage they could gain. Thus their AI could even improve based on those skill checks (quickly understanding a Mummy is weak against fire, for example.) Other things could be implemented, too, like a bestiary that unfolds faster or slower based on Intelligence or Knowledge scores of the mage scrawling it. Much more could be done in that area and greatly expand what's already there, making it more interesting and unique, and not just another total control RTWP RPG (which we already have several of.)
And overarching tactical commands of the party leader would still be the player's to make. That could be greatly expanded as well to make it more interesting, yet also keeping some unpredictability and letting the AI companions do their thing, making the player rely on their adventurer companions more (thus more immersion is gained.) Want to roll with a Chaotic Neutral Sorcerer? Be prepared that it might not go all that smoothly for you. Would be a very unique system rather than being another "omnipresent authority figure" RPG.
Bioware's AI scripts were designed to be very generalized, and we're all familiar with their limitations. It would hardly take a supercomputer to make a mage that never charges into melee combat, for example, and who uses her spells more intelligently. All that's needed is a custom AI routine tailor-made for that particular NPC, and though that's rarely done, it shouldn't be thought of as some kind of impossible feat requiring years of work. The game's AI is all scripted, and is only limited by the amount of code someone wants to write.
Not everyone wants NWN to turn into yet another BG style game, and though I really have no problem with giving that option to those who want to play that way, I think it's disingenuous to claim that their preferred style is necessitated by some unsolvable problem with AI.
I think "Full party control IS feasible" is a contentious claim that needs to be backed up with facts.
For sure it’s feasible. They did it in their previous games and Obsidian did it in the sequel with an engine built off of the Aurora.
Question is, is it worth devoting the resources for them to do it? And do they even want to.
Trent implied no to the want to part of it...
But if enough people were interested they might decide it was worth it.
Let me put it this way, I think there’s no chance it happens in the head start, but if after release enough people say the henchman issue is frustrating and they want more control, maybe just maybe it will mean something.
It's not just spell casting either. Want your tank to position him or yourself in a choke point? Want your rogue to hide before the fight, slip past the melees and sneak attack the spell caster? Want your ranger to assist from a distance but switch to melee to protect your wizard if an opponent gets past your tank? Want to switch your strategy on the fly when a group of enemies does something unexpected?
Video game AI is just not going to properly be able to handle any of this with as many potential combat variables as NWN has.
It would be great if they could all pass the Turing test and you couldn't tell if you were playing with people or AI, bu i Beamdog could swing that then they're in the wrong business.
It's not just spell casting either. Want your tank to position him or yourself in a choke point? Want your rogue to hide before the fight, slip past the melees and sneak attack the spell caster? Want your ranger to assist from a distance but switch to melee to protect your wizard if an opponent gets past your tank? Want to switch your strategy on the fly when a group of enemies does something unexpected?
Video game AI is just not going to properly be able to handle any of this with as many potential combat variables as NWN has.
It would be great if they could all pass the Turing test and you couldn't tell if you were playing with people or AI, bu i Beamdog could swing that then they're in the wrong business.
The AI in NWN2, as improved by TonyK, did allow you to tell sneakers that they should hide and give casters instructions about how to use spells; however, that still needed to be backed up by some manual control as well, or they'd still do daft stuff. Essentially you had two ways to play the game - you could either make a very powerful character and not bother much with the companions except as story advancers (basically give instructions to stay put), or you could play something you fancied and micromanage your party in combat. There are pluses and minuses to both.
If BD are not going to offer full party control then they need to seriously improve the AI; maybe they could buy Google and use Alphazero.
And I would at the very least want to equip my "henchmen".
This is very much a OC only problem. In both of the following campaigns you have full access to a Henchman's inventory, and I highly recommend you skip the OC altogether because its long, drawn out, and bland outside of some of the side missions. You don't really talk to any of the NPC's long enough for them to end up attached to you, and the henchmen don't have anything past backstories that lead into fetch quests to entertain you past their usefulness. SoU is the most interesting IMO, and HotU isn't bad either if you like epic level campaigns.
Secondly...
I have never grown up with Baldurs Gate and, as much as I make reference its rules sometimes, have never played PnP D&D. NWN was my first game of Bioware's many D&D RPG's, and NWN2 was my second. I have very little experience in multiplayer NWN/NWN2, but seeing how this is about henchmen, I doubt that's very necessary. Below are my experiences with NWN and NWN2's AI in giant posts that didn't need to be as long as they are, but I guess I got a bit sidetracked while providing (probably already well known/obvious and therefor unnecessary) tips on how to remedy issues in NWN. I honestly don't expect these to get fully read, as its pretty much rambling that I wrote while half-asleep.
TL;DR, "Never had a serious issue with NWN henchmen despite the bad AI, NWN2's FPC mixed with the bad AI gave me a stroke, and while I think NWN having FPC would be cool they should improve the AI anyway because I don't want another stroke."
NWN
With NWN's admittedly limited command system, I never had any real issues with the Companion AI until recently. Granted, I never really picked hardcore spellcasters, rather I usually went with Sharwyn in the OC, Deekin in SoU, and Deekin + Valen in HotU. Sharwyn was the only one I had a problem with, because they gave her Sleep before you got to level 5, which would cause you to get Coup De Graced by enemies, and the fact that she never switched to her melee weapon if you told her to use her ranged weapon. This is remedied in SoU/HotU by the fact their weapon selection is based on what you equip in their weapon slot rather than hardcoding their AI to use melee or ranged weapons, allowing them to switch between a melee or ranged weapon, the fact Deekin isn't given to you initially and/or isn't even given the Sleep spell at all IIRC. Pretty much all modules I've played use a variation of the SoU/HotU henchmen system, so equipping your henchmen isn't an issue.
The issue I mentioned at the start of the previous paragraph has been having recently is that Henchmen aren't targeting enemies like they used to - before, they used to attack enemies in my general area, but now they've seem to target groups of enemies not on top of me when in "Attack Nearest" mode. I found a soft-fix in Guard Me, which I've noticed seems to make them target the guy I'm attacking, or someone next to me that's attacking me. The fact that it seems to go back to Attack Nearest mode every so often isn't even that much of an issue as most of the time I can deal with most of the pressure alone or with one other henchman, while the second henchmen is trying to deal with archers who couldn't hope to face them.
A big complaint seems to be that your henchmen blow big spells on weak enemies. As I said, I never used hardcore spellcasters, but I have to ask if you've forgotten that resting is available almost all of the time? I don't mean this with any level of hostility, but very rarely are there areas you can't rest. SoU is a bit more restrictive than the OC during the first chapter, but even there I had few issues finding a place to rest, and if needed could just leave the area to rest. Whenever I come out of combat, I usually take a rest, sometimes even when I'm playing a fighter as it'll heal me to full. Given how easy it is to rest, I'm not sure why its an issue that your henchmen use their highest level spells early when the game is designed with blowing all your spells on randoms in mind. Granted, resting gets longer and longer as you level, but I never had any problems with the wait. Another fix is to just tell them not to use their spells, as toggling spellcasting is a thing, though I suppose it defeats the point of using a wizard if he functions as an archer.
On spellcasters running into melee, in the OC henchmen ranged weapons are given the Infinity item property, so I don't know why this would occur unless you didn't tell them to use their ranged weapons and they ran out of spells. The AI defaults to melee attacks, so checking their settings should be the first thing you do.
The only henchmen that seem to have difficulties of control in NWN, for me, have been Rogues due to their generally low AC causing them to get hit by attacks of opportunity easily or KO'd quickly by an enemy changing targets to them, which I've also noticed the AI likes to do a lot. This is remedied with prioritizing getting them better armor and dexterity items, which is a no-brainer, but something that I sometimes forget to do because I think "man, my fighter really needs that +1 full plate so he's indestructible" when he's already indestructible, especially when not everyone is going to be targeting him at once - the AI does a good job in trying to spread its focus out, and you have to keep that in mind with equipping your henchmen.
NWN AI is obviously far from perfect, I'm not denying that fact. Without ordering around the companions, they make some questionable decisions as I outlined above. Sharwyn knocking me out with Sleep is freaking atrocious, and I know Boddyknock probably does the same with Fireballs and Ice Storms if he has them. Giving them the appropriate command is easy enough to do most of the time but they are more of a soft-fix to a problem that shouldn't really exist; a fix, however, that I personally have grown accustomed t using. If major spellcasters don't work, Bards and Druids/Clerics work fine enough as it is, while warriors and rogues work even better most of the time. I only really take my companions for personality, background, or even something as petty as soundset most of the time, anyway.
NWN2 and Full Party Control
If I am completely honest, I never got into many modules for NWN2, and even then I haven't those that I've tried due to ungracefully falling out of NWN2's treehouse of enjoyment. Recently, I tried the Pilgrim, which was more of an atmospheric experience and less of a combat driven one, but was great up until a bug that made me stop playing for a while, in spite of Lurk being my favorite companion that I've had in a campaign in a long time. Before that, I tried TheWizard'sApprentice trilogy, which I haven't finished past the 1st chapter, but it was also fun, but as noticably absent in the companions front. Not only that, but I couldn't get into either Mask of the Betrayer or Storm of Zehir, so most of my experiences with NWN2's companions comes from the original campaign... And holy $#!% were henchmen not fun.
At all times, I felt like I had two options; A: Control all the characters all the time and survive, or B: Let them do their own thing and get steamrolled.
I exaggerate the issue far more than it really is, obviously, but I never remember a moment when I had fun switching between my characters to make them do something - it just felt like a massive chore to me. There were also the multitude of things the AI seemed to think was a good idea but in reality a 3 int barbarian would have realized it wasn't. For starters, all henchmen who weren't spellcasters were insistent on trying to flank enemies. I've literally watched Khelgar, while enemies are targeting him, try to run around them and get attack of opportunitied the entire time he was doing it. It was less of an issue because he had the AC most of the time to deal with it, but then Neeshka tried doing it and would die, because in hindsight it makes no sense to walk right next to them when trying to do that. Meanwhile, she's also getting stuck on every pole or sign on the other side of the Docks District, making me forced to either walk back to her or switch to her and force her to get out of its way. I seriously don't know why she's the only companion that did this, but it drives me mental.
This idiotic decision making by the AI causing me to feel the need to babysit them is what prevents me from beating the OC more than the two times I've done so - its not even because I dislike the OC's story (on the contrary, despite hearing it panned for being cliche I loved the OC's plot. Apparently the Warcraft movie was bad though, and I personally loved it, so...) or the Henchmen (Well, I'm okay with most of them, but Casavir and Elanee are horribly dry, especially for love interests, and I kind of wanted to gut Bishop and Amon Jerro rather than have them help us, but the whole campaign forces you to let people into the fold...), and it wasn't the the fact that the city of Neverwinter overstayed its welcome, nor is it because of the absurd difficulty spikes that occur sometimes - it just stopped being fun. My first playthrough I don't even remember, but I believe it was around the time I first got the game, and the second playthrough was when I modded my familiar into being an Iron Golem (starting at level 2 and leveling like a normal familiar) who steamrolled the entire campaign. Making a companion who I didn't need to babysit was the only reason I got through the campaign, and it makes me so sad because there are a lot of good moments in the NWN2 OC that I would love to replay, but can't because the journey stops being fun. This is also on top of the multitude of gameplay changes that just, in my opinion, make NWN2 seem inferior to NWN despite its improvements.
I won't fault their Full Party Control for this issue, though. I actually really liked the system, and most of the time I took the time to build henchmen the way I wanted them to build, not just hit recommended and watch them fumble. I was totally fine in scenarios where the henchmen were acting somewhat normally but I needed to reposition them or make the spellcaster burst someone down. The issues arrived when the AI would try its damnedest to piss me off, and it would succeed almost every time, and the fact that I came to NWN2 with NWN as my guideline. In NWN, I was playing my character, who in both games is really the only character that matters in the long run outside of some random story reason. (The Hero of Neverwinter single handedly (outside of Tomi disarming traps and locks) rooted out an entire cult, slaughtered ancient dragons, and defeated an ancient superrace with no guidance outside of being pointed in the right direction - why does the Kala-cha have to have Casavir show him the way to the orc chieftain? Why do you need Elanee to show you the secret path to Highcliffwhen you've proven your enemies can't beat you time and time again, especially when the area you find her has an area transition that can take you to Highcliff right behind her just in case the conversation breaks for the two hundredth time?)
Keep in mind that the commands for individual followers was more awkward to get to in NWN2. In NWN, you had the radial menu that instantly filled up with commands, and due to its circular nature flicking your mouse toward the command you want becomes second nature. In NWN2, you instead have to suffer the dropdown menu, which is both tiny and filled with more than just the commands. I admit that it may just be that I'm too unfamiliar with the dropdown menus to use them quickly and efficiently, but it was a major reason I didn't use many of the tips and tricks I mentioned in the NWN section.
Conclusion
Not so long this time.
I have no personal gripes with adding a full party control system to NWN, but the idea that FPC would make an AI overhaul unnecessary is a joke. I would much rather have a moderately intelligent follower AI put in place that does a good enough job to get things done than just force me to babysit them throughout combat. IMO, both should be added so people like me can enjoy the system without having a stroke from having to keep my companions from killing themselves every time I try to play my own character.
It's not just spell casting either. Want your tank to position him or yourself in a choke point? Want your rogue to hide before the fight, slip past the melees and sneak attack the spell caster? Want your ranger to assist from a distance but switch to melee to protect your wizard if an opponent gets past your tank? Want to switch your strategy on the fly when a group of enemies does something unexpected?
Video game AI is just not going to properly be able to handle any of this with as many potential combat variables as NWN has.
It would be great if they could all pass the Turing test and you couldn't tell if you were playing with people or AI, bu i Beamdog could swing that then they're in the wrong business.
The AI in NWN2, as improved by TonyK, did allow you to tell sneakers that they should hide and give casters instructions about how to use spells; however, that still needed to be backed up by some manual control as well, or they'd still do daft stuff. Essentially you had two ways to play the game - you could either make a very powerful character and not bother much with the companions except as story advancers (basically give instructions to stay put), or you could play something you fancied and micromanage your party in combat. There are pluses and minuses to both.
If BD are not going to offer full party control then they need to seriously improve the AI; maybe they could buy Google and use Alphazero.
With NWN2 and Tony K’s AI I used to split between play styles. For regular encounters, like a random group of lizard men, I’d let my companions do their thing. During bigger, more challenging fights I’d usually take over.
AI that stop wizards from charging into melee? Sure. AI that makes the spellcasters use their spells "intelligently"? I find that unlikely with the D&D spellcasting system.
AI control over spellcasting can work in games, where spells are based on spell points ("magic energy"), or on cooldown, etc., because that way the spellcaster has access to several castings. But in D&D that one casting of a powerful spell might be best conserved for a "tough situation". And what exactly constitutes this "tough" situation is to a certain extent dependent on the player.
What you're missing with this is that the AI shouldn't seek to be "perfect". In real life if you were adventuring with a mage, he/she might decide to cast a spell before you felt it was the perfect situation. The idea behind expanding the AI that's in the game is that it will add a "pseudo-human" element to the game, giving the NPC companions more personality and unpredictability to act on their own, thus changing the experience for the player from a "total control RPG" to a "relying on your adventurer companions more" RPG.
The thing is, a lot of people who want full party control want to be in total control of every little detail in an RPG. I can understand that (I hoard potions in RPGs, who doesn't? ), but what I can't understand is why they feel they need that system in every single RPG. In a game like NWN, it already has AI profiles, and there are huge numbers of other RPGs including D&D RPGs that offer total control of every minute detail. This gives NWN a great opportunity and a head start to go in a different and IMO more interesting direction that hasn't really been done before. And I don't think decent AI expansion would be impossible. And the expansion can also happen in the "overarching tactical" options that NWN already provides a bit of (stay close to me, stay in the shadows, conserve spells, etc..)
Tying some aspects closer to the character sheet would be a good start. Attributes/talents/skills/etc. could have more impact on the action of the characters in combat, besides the more obvious "handmade/scripted" type personalities that modders can make for their own characters (a headstrong mage/thief who sometimes likes to forgo casting and charge in with a dagger trying to stab everything, or a clumsy bard who may accidentally hit you with an arrow once in awhile.) Of course it shouldn't be overdone and a good balance needs to be struck but it would add a lot of uniqueness to the characters and would be really interesting. And other than those scripted type of personalities the AI can just be expanded to be more emergent based on the character sheet and improved from the profiles that are there.
What you're missing with this is that the AI shouldn't seek to be "perfect". In real life if you were adventuring with a mage, he/she might decide to cast a spell before you felt it was the perfect situation.
If you were really adventuring with a mage, you'd also be able to ask them to cast a very specific spell at a very specific time, because that's what you need at the moment. You could also ask them to hold off on casting one spell and cast another instead. And they might listen to you. You keep bringing up ways that companions might "realistically" screw things up, but you don't realize that the system also prevents them from "realistically" carrying out plans without a hitch. In fact, it outright prevents any complex plans from even being devised, because the lack of control means you basically have to brute force everything and hope for the best.
The idea behind expanding the AI that's in the game is that it will add a "pseudo-human" element to the game, giving the NPC companions more personality and unpredictability to act on their own, thus changing the experience for the player from a "total control RPG" to a "relying on your adventurer companions more" RPG.
Sorry, I don't buy that. If you ask me, that's just making excuses for a major design mistake. "No, it's not that the game takes a lot of control out of your hands and leaves your fate up to RNG and dumbass AI! It's a realistic, immersive 'real person' simulator!"
I repeat: NWN is a game, not a holodeck program. And honestly, creating the kind of AI you want would be far more difficult and costly than just adding party control as an option.
The thing is, a lot of people who want full party control want to be in total control of every little detail in an RPG. I can understand that (I hoard potions in RPGs, who doesn't? ), but what I can't understand is why they feel they need that system in every single RPG. In a game like NWN, it already has AI profiles, and there are huge numbers of other RPGs including D&D RPGs that offer total control of every minute detail. This gives NWN a great opportunity and a head start to go in a different and IMO more interesting direction that hasn't really been done before. And I don't think decent AI expansion would be impossible. And the expansion can also happen in the "overarching tactical" options that NWN already provides a bit of (stay close to me, stay in the shadows, conserve spells, etc..)
The reason I want it in NWN is that NWN is still unique among RPGs because of its potential for user-made content. Yes, there are other RPGs that have full party control. None of them have a toolset like NWN's. None of them. Not a single one. There is literally no other game with a toolset like NWN's that is both powerful and accessible enough for lots of people to create content (and no, don't tell me "Just play NWN2", because it has a lot of other problems that make it a simply horrible game and cancel out its addition of party control, and its toolset isn't as accessible). A major feature of the game is the ability to create your own stuff, and that's because the game gives you lots of freedom to do so. I want the game to expand that freedom by allowing people to create modules where people can have full control over the party. It would only add to the game's value. People could still make plenty of modules where you can't control your companions, but other people could make modules where you could. People would have the option. And the game would be better for it.
This is what frustrates me: Those on my side don't want to take anything away from those on your side, but I'm seeing people arguing vehemently that those on my side should be denied what we want on philosophical grounds. If party control were added as an option, it wouldn't stop NWN modules from also being able to go in what you consider a more interesting direction. It would just mean that an NWN module wouldn't be required to follow that design philosophy, like it is now. Adding party control would make NWN a platform for all kinds of gameplay, meaning more people would play it and the community would get more and better content. Leaving things as they are holds the game back.
What you're missing with this is that the AI shouldn't seek to be "perfect". In real life if you were adventuring with a mage, he/she might decide to cast a spell before you felt it was the perfect situation. The idea behind expanding the AI that's in the game is that it will add a "pseudo-human" element to the game, giving the NPC companions more personality and unpredictability to act on their own, thus changing the experience for the player from a "total control RPG" to a "relying on your adventurer companions more" RPG.
Companions personality is fine on a story level - companion with high approval can unlock new quests/give alternative ways to finish main quests. In battle, knowing how 'special' current companion AI is, it would be even more annoying.
The thing is, a lot of people who want full party control want to be in total control of every little detail in an RPG. I can understand that (I hoard potions in RPGs, who doesn't? ), but what I can't understand is why they feel they need that system in every single RPG. In a game like NWN, it already has AI profiles, and there are huge numbers of other RPGs including D&D RPGs that offer total control of every minute detail. This gives NWN a great opportunity and a head start to go in a different and IMO more interesting direction that hasn't really been done before. And I don't think decent AI expansion would be impossible. And the expansion can also happen in the "overarching tactical" options that NWN already provides a bit of (stay close to me, stay in the shadows, conserve spells, etc..)
Good companion AI is not possible on a 'generic' level. AI doesn't have resource management awareness, unless you hardcode it - but that means every module builder would have to write every companion behavior for every encounter in his module - for example mage companion wouldn't be allowed to cast last sleep spell on rats, because there will be boss encounter next and you won't be allowed to rest between fights. Creating this behaviour is extremely time consuming and doesn't even guarantee good player experience. It would be much easier, for module builders and for players, to have full party control - module builders wouldn't have to waste time writing companion AI and players would be allowed to fight monsters any way they can.
Tying some aspects closer to the character sheet would be a good start. Attributes/talents/skills/etc. could have more impact on the action of the characters in combat, besides the more obvious "handmade/scripted" type personalities that modders can make for their own characters (a headstrong mage/thief who sometimes likes to forgo casting and charge in with a dagger trying to stab everything, or a clumsy bard who may accidentally hit you with an arrow once in awhile.) Of course it shouldn't be overdone and a good balance needs to be struck but it would add a lot of uniqueness to the characters and would be really interesting. And other than those scripted type of personalities the AI can just be expanded to be more emergent based on the character sheet and improved from the profiles that are there.
I have no idea how watching my low level mage companion ignoring his spells and just rushing with knife and dying (probably from attacks of opportunity) is anybody's idea of fun. Specially if scrolls of raise dead are expensive or even not available. You would have to save before fight and pray that your companion won't do anything stupid.
This is what I’ve noticed in playing modules with multiple companions. I had not played NWN in years and had forgotten the frustration. I have to save before every fight. The difference between stomping an encounter and getting wiped is how dumb my companions may be at any given moment.
I'm by no means against having better control over companions' actions. I personally use the Player Tool feats to give players the ability to direct companions to move to specific locations, designate targets for them, and interact with objects and creatures. But that's not the same thing as actually possessing a companion.
So, how would proponents of this "full party control" envision it working in the first place? Should it only be enabled during combat, or is it something the player should be able to do at any time? If it's the latter, how would it affect story-oriented modules, if the player could choose to play through the whole game as one of these companions instead of the PC character? If it were to be enabled only in combat, how would you handle things like positioning your party before commencing an attack, or taking other non-combat actions that you might think would be better handled by direct control rather than AI? And what about PW's? Could a DM override a player's possession of an NPC? What about parties with multiple PC's - who gets to do the possessing, only the party leader? Could he then also possess another player's summoned creature?
It wouldn't bother me in the least if BD gave players the ability to possess companions, and left it up to module builders to flag them as possessible or not. But it's not some simple thing, and I don't consider it a deal-breaker if they don't.
Most of the issues I see raised here concern spell casters, and being frustrated with their choice of spells. That's a pretty narrow issue to justify the work needed to add full control, and despite some comments, we have no way of knowing if it's actually less "difficult and costly" than improving AI scripting for spell casting instead.
If you want to see full control added because you just prefer playing those kinds of games, that's perfectly fine. Just keep in mind that NWN could have been programmed that way from the start, but a design decision was made to not do that. Those who prefer the system as it is don't really need to be convinced that they're wrong; they're just trying to explain what they like about it.
Bioware did not hire dummies to write their code. The AI in general does a good job, and there are also some reasons for features that more seasoned RPG players might think are odd. Take the example of the dagger-wielding mage... If she did not charge into the fray once her spells were spent, and instead just stood there idly, many players would think it was a bug. I have no doubt many similar behaviors resulted from QA feedback.
I agree that more work could be done to improve spell casting AI. As I've mentioned, I also like having more control over the kinds of orders given to companions. But enabling full possession by default would affect all existing modules, breaking many, and force all future ones to be built with that system in mind. As an optional feature enabled by the module builder, sure - but it's a very bad idea to retrofit it onto every else's module or PW.
I’m not sure fully implementing party control would break existing modules. Henchmen sometimes act appropriately, and often times go off the rails. Currently a module builder can set up an encounter with no way of knowing how it will play out. It’s just a crap shoot. And more often than not, a player doesn’t need brilliant tactics to win an encounter, just a party that basically performs the functions of their class with a shred of competency.
That sometimes happens. But the truth is, that should be the minimum, not the gold standard.
Excellent, allowing full party control lets you to become more tactical with your approach to encounters, and saves the developers the task of trying to make a henchman AI that works under all sorts of conditions. Also, welcome back BD, hope you had a relaxing break!
Comments
I've always used OMB's henchmen system too - in fact I used it for the OC the first time I played it, skipping the NPCs completely because, TBH, I more often than not dislike companions. I much prefer to make my own parties. On subsequent plays, and in many other modules I've played, I take module companions and add an extra or two using OHS. When I last played seriously I'd taken to leveling henchman spell casters (yet another great feature of OHS) in such a way so as to limit the spell choices the AI has, ie low number of buff spells, little to no AOE spells etc. With the voice commands you could sort of control things but it'd be far better if it worked like it does in the titles mentioned at the start of this post.
While it would be a ton more work to allow it; this type of system could be greatly expanded by modifying the familiar's conversation file to let the PC talk to it and specify what class(es), skills, feats, spells (if a wizard/sorc/bard), inventory items, equipped items, etc the henchman should have.
Just a few of the drawbacks to this hack though are that you cannot rest as the henchman/familiar, you cannot pickup items, and you cannot view/manipulate its inventory - those are all hardcoded restrictions. Maybe if EE lifted those this could be a more viable alternative to modifying familiars-as-henchman though. But until then, this remains a fairly hacky, and complex, method/workaround to "full party control" (of just one henchman) in a multiplayer-environment only.
But sometimes I just want to yell at the henchman "get out of the way!" So I installed Numos' Minion Command tool in the module that I build. It doesn't give full party command, but it does allow you to move your henchman and pets out of the way as well as regroup. It doesn't work so well during combat which for me personally is more of a feature anyway.
One caveat is that when using HenchAI as an override, it can break some modules. So it is better to use it as a builder rather than as a player.
But combat is when you need control the most, because that's when the stakes are highest. Being able to quickly get someone to stop blocking the door is convenient, but it's not life or death.
I have to be honest: Your perspective here is kind of alien to me. You seem to greatly enjoy having a lot of things be out of your hands.
In PnP D&D, players rarely have full control over every action their NPC companions take, and if they try to do the kinds of things I mentioned above, the DM will almost assuredly intervene. Coming from a PnP background, it is not alien at all to have "a lot of things out of your hands," including micromanagement of NPCs' actions. And it's not even unheard of in other video games either, so it's a bit odd that this view is treated as a curiosity.
The companions act like idiots- The wizzy will use his nukes on trash mobs and charge the boss-
The AI you guys are speaking of would be great but its not feasible- Full party control IS feasible and if you dont like it just dont use it.
Right now the companions are near worthless except as heal bots and buff bots -
Not to mention I can still control them enough to make them walk right into a trap to set it off which is unrealistic as well.
Like someone said, this is a game- You can never get the AI to work the way a henchmen would in D and D and even in D and D Tablet.op the DM will allow you to create tactics and plans.
So yeah- I dont understand this mindset either...You have AI right now that acts like fools and are supposed to be hardened dungeon veterans but the way they act they have no clue about tactics - To be like 'I want the AI to act real but no full control" is a great theory but its not going to happen and would take years to get it to that point when switching on full control would be far easier and better.
I think more AI tie-ins to stats, talents and feats would be great. If a character has Knowledge of Undead, for example, they could get a boost to fighting against them, as if their knowledge helped them identify a weakness or advantage they could gain. Thus their AI could even improve based on those skill checks (quickly understanding a Mummy is weak against fire, for example.) Other things could be implemented, too, like a bestiary that unfolds faster or slower based on Intelligence or Knowledge scores of the mage scrawling it. Much more could be done in that area and greatly expand what's already there, making it more interesting and unique, and not just another total control RTWP RPG (which we already have several of.)
And overarching tactical commands of the party leader would still be the player's to make. That could be greatly expanded as well to make it more interesting, yet also keeping some unpredictability and letting the AI companions do their thing, making the player rely on their adventurer companions more (thus more immersion is gained.) Want to roll with a Chaotic Neutral Sorcerer? Be prepared that it might not go all that smoothly for you.
Not everyone wants NWN to turn into yet another BG style game, and though I really have no problem with giving that option to those who want to play that way, I think it's disingenuous to claim that their preferred style is necessitated by some unsolvable problem with AI.
Question is, is it worth devoting the resources for them to do it? And do they even want to.
Trent implied no to the want to part of it...
But if enough people were interested they might decide it was worth it.
Let me put it this way, I think there’s no chance it happens in the head start, but if after release enough people say the henchman issue is frustrating and they want more control, maybe just maybe it will mean something.
Video game AI is just not going to properly be able to handle any of this with as many potential combat variables as NWN has.
It would be great if they could all pass the Turing test and you couldn't tell if you were playing with people or AI, bu i Beamdog could swing that then they're in the wrong business.
If BD are not going to offer full party control then they need to seriously improve the AI; maybe they could buy Google and use Alphazero.
Secondly...
I have never grown up with Baldurs Gate and, as much as I make reference its rules sometimes, have never played PnP D&D. NWN was my first game of Bioware's many D&D RPG's, and NWN2 was my second. I have very little experience in multiplayer NWN/NWN2, but seeing how this is about henchmen, I doubt that's very necessary. Below are my experiences with NWN and NWN2's AI in giant posts that didn't need to be as long as they are, but I guess I got a bit sidetracked while providing (probably already well known/obvious and therefor unnecessary) tips on how to remedy issues in NWN. I honestly don't expect these to get fully read, as its pretty much rambling that I wrote while half-asleep.
TL;DR, "Never had a serious issue with NWN henchmen despite the bad AI, NWN2's FPC mixed with the bad AI gave me a stroke, and while I think NWN having FPC would be cool they should improve the AI anyway because I don't want another stroke."
NWN
The issue I mentioned at the start of the previous paragraph has been having recently is that Henchmen aren't targeting enemies like they used to - before, they used to attack enemies in my general area, but now they've seem to target groups of enemies not on top of me when in "Attack Nearest" mode. I found a soft-fix in Guard Me, which I've noticed seems to make them target the guy I'm attacking, or someone next to me that's attacking me. The fact that it seems to go back to Attack Nearest mode every so often isn't even that much of an issue as most of the time I can deal with most of the pressure alone or with one other henchman, while the second henchmen is trying to deal with archers who couldn't hope to face them.
A big complaint seems to be that your henchmen blow big spells on weak enemies. As I said, I never used hardcore spellcasters, but I have to ask if you've forgotten that resting is available almost all of the time? I don't mean this with any level of hostility, but very rarely are there areas you can't rest. SoU is a bit more restrictive than the OC during the first chapter, but even there I had few issues finding a place to rest, and if needed could just leave the area to rest. Whenever I come out of combat, I usually take a rest, sometimes even when I'm playing a fighter as it'll heal me to full. Given how easy it is to rest, I'm not sure why its an issue that your henchmen use their highest level spells early when the game is designed with blowing all your spells on randoms in mind. Granted, resting gets longer and longer as you level, but I never had any problems with the wait. Another fix is to just tell them not to use their spells, as toggling spellcasting is a thing, though I suppose it defeats the point of using a wizard if he functions as an archer.
On spellcasters running into melee, in the OC henchmen ranged weapons are given the Infinity item property, so I don't know why this would occur unless you didn't tell them to use their ranged weapons and they ran out of spells. The AI defaults to melee attacks, so checking their settings should be the first thing you do.
The only henchmen that seem to have difficulties of control in NWN, for me, have been Rogues due to their generally low AC causing them to get hit by attacks of opportunity easily or KO'd quickly by an enemy changing targets to them, which I've also noticed the AI likes to do a lot. This is remedied with prioritizing getting them better armor and dexterity items, which is a no-brainer, but something that I sometimes forget to do because I think "man, my fighter really needs that +1 full plate so he's indestructible" when he's already indestructible, especially when not everyone is going to be targeting him at once - the AI does a good job in trying to spread its focus out, and you have to keep that in mind with equipping your henchmen.
NWN AI is obviously far from perfect, I'm not denying that fact. Without ordering around the companions, they make some questionable decisions as I outlined above. Sharwyn knocking me out with Sleep is freaking atrocious, and I know Boddyknock probably does the same with Fireballs and Ice Storms if he has them. Giving them the appropriate command is easy enough to do most of the time but they are more of a soft-fix to a problem that shouldn't really exist; a fix, however, that I personally have grown accustomed t using. If major spellcasters don't work, Bards and Druids/Clerics work fine enough as it is, while warriors and rogues work even better most of the time. I only really take my companions for personality, background, or even something as petty as soundset most of the time, anyway.
NWN2 and Full Party Control
At all times, I felt like I had two options; A: Control all the characters all the time and survive, or B: Let them do their own thing and get steamrolled.
I exaggerate the issue far more than it really is, obviously, but I never remember a moment when I had fun switching between my characters to make them do something - it just felt like a massive chore to me. There were also the multitude of things the AI seemed to think was a good idea but in reality a 3 int barbarian would have realized it wasn't. For starters, all henchmen who weren't spellcasters were insistent on trying to flank enemies. I've literally watched Khelgar, while enemies are targeting him, try to run around them and get attack of opportunitied the entire time he was doing it. It was less of an issue because he had the AC most of the time to deal with it, but then Neeshka tried doing it and would die, because in hindsight it makes no sense to walk right next to them when trying to do that. Meanwhile, she's also getting stuck on every pole or sign on the other side of the Docks District, making me forced to either walk back to her or switch to her and force her to get out of its way. I seriously don't know why she's the only companion that did this, but it drives me mental.
This idiotic decision making by the AI causing me to feel the need to babysit them is what prevents me from beating the OC more than the two times I've done so - its not even because I dislike the OC's story (on the contrary, despite hearing it panned for being cliche I loved the OC's plot. Apparently the Warcraft movie was bad though, and I personally loved it, so...) or the Henchmen (Well, I'm okay with most of them, but Casavir and Elanee are horribly dry, especially for love interests, and I kind of wanted to gut Bishop and Amon Jerro rather than have them help us, but the whole campaign forces you to let people into the fold...), and it wasn't the the fact that the city of Neverwinter overstayed its welcome, nor is it because of the absurd difficulty spikes that occur sometimes - it just stopped being fun. My first playthrough I don't even remember, but I believe it was around the time I first got the game, and the second playthrough was when I modded my familiar into being an Iron Golem (starting at level 2 and leveling like a normal familiar) who steamrolled the entire campaign. Making a companion who I didn't need to babysit was the only reason I got through the campaign, and it makes me so sad because there are a lot of good moments in the NWN2 OC that I would love to replay, but can't because the journey stops being fun. This is also on top of the multitude of gameplay changes that just, in my opinion, make NWN2 seem inferior to NWN despite its improvements.
I won't fault their Full Party Control for this issue, though. I actually really liked the system, and most of the time I took the time to build henchmen the way I wanted them to build, not just hit recommended and watch them fumble. I was totally fine in scenarios where the henchmen were acting somewhat normally but I needed to reposition them or make the spellcaster burst someone down. The issues arrived when the AI would try its damnedest to piss me off, and it would succeed almost every time, and the fact that I came to NWN2 with NWN as my guideline. In NWN, I was playing my character, who in both games is really the only character that matters in the long run outside of some random story reason. (The Hero of Neverwinter single handedly (outside of Tomi disarming traps and locks) rooted out an entire cult, slaughtered ancient dragons, and defeated an ancient superrace with no guidance outside of being pointed in the right direction - why does the Kala-cha have to have Casavir show him the way to the orc chieftain? Why do you need Elanee to show you the secret path to Highcliffwhen you've proven your enemies can't beat you time and time again, especially when the area you find her has an area transition that can take you to Highcliff right behind her just in case the conversation breaks for the two hundredth time?)
Keep in mind that the commands for individual followers was more awkward to get to in NWN2. In NWN, you had the radial menu that instantly filled up with commands, and due to its circular nature flicking your mouse toward the command you want becomes second nature. In NWN2, you instead have to suffer the dropdown menu, which is both tiny and filled with more than just the commands. I admit that it may just be that I'm too unfamiliar with the dropdown menus to use them quickly and efficiently, but it was a major reason I didn't use many of the tips and tricks I mentioned in the NWN section.
Conclusion
I have no personal gripes with adding a full party control system to NWN, but the idea that FPC would make an AI overhaul unnecessary is a joke. I would much rather have a moderately intelligent follower AI put in place that does a good enough job to get things done than just force me to babysit them throughout combat. IMO, both should be added so people like me can enjoy the system without having a stroke from having to keep my companions from killing themselves every time I try to play my own character.
I liked the mix.
The thing is, a lot of people who want full party control want to be in total control of every little detail in an RPG. I can understand that (I hoard potions in RPGs, who doesn't?
Tying some aspects closer to the character sheet would be a good start. Attributes/talents/skills/etc. could have more impact on the action of the characters in combat, besides the more obvious "handmade/scripted" type personalities that modders can make for their own characters (a headstrong mage/thief who sometimes likes to forgo casting and charge in with a dagger trying to stab everything, or a clumsy bard who may accidentally hit you with an arrow once in awhile.) Of course it shouldn't be overdone and a good balance needs to be struck but it would add a lot of uniqueness to the characters and would be really interesting. And other than those scripted type of personalities the AI can just be expanded to be more emergent based on the character sheet and improved from the profiles that are there.
Sorry, I don't buy that. If you ask me, that's just making excuses for a major design mistake. "No, it's not that the game takes a lot of control out of your hands and leaves your fate up to RNG and dumbass AI! It's a realistic, immersive 'real person' simulator!"
I repeat: NWN is a game, not a holodeck program. And honestly, creating the kind of AI you want would be far more difficult and costly than just adding party control as an option. The reason I want it in NWN is that NWN is still unique among RPGs because of its potential for user-made content. Yes, there are other RPGs that have full party control. None of them have a toolset like NWN's. None of them. Not a single one. There is literally no other game with a toolset like NWN's that is both powerful and accessible enough for lots of people to create content (and no, don't tell me "Just play NWN2", because it has a lot of other problems that make it a simply horrible game and cancel out its addition of party control, and its toolset isn't as accessible). A major feature of the game is the ability to create your own stuff, and that's because the game gives you lots of freedom to do so. I want the game to expand that freedom by allowing people to create modules where people can have full control over the party. It would only add to the game's value. People could still make plenty of modules where you can't control your companions, but other people could make modules where you could. People would have the option. And the game would be better for it.
This is what frustrates me: Those on my side don't want to take anything away from those on your side, but I'm seeing people arguing vehemently that those on my side should be denied what we want on philosophical grounds. If party control were added as an option, it wouldn't stop NWN modules from also being able to go in what you consider a more interesting direction. It would just mean that an NWN module wouldn't be required to follow that design philosophy, like it is now. Adding party control would make NWN a platform for all kinds of gameplay, meaning more people would play it and the community would get more and better content. Leaving things as they are holds the game back.
Options, people. Options.
That wizard with an 18 intelligence... just no.
So, how would proponents of this "full party control" envision it working in the first place? Should it only be enabled during combat, or is it something the player should be able to do at any time? If it's the latter, how would it affect story-oriented modules, if the player could choose to play through the whole game as one of these companions instead of the PC character? If it were to be enabled only in combat, how would you handle things like positioning your party before commencing an attack, or taking other non-combat actions that you might think would be better handled by direct control rather than AI? And what about PW's? Could a DM override a player's possession of an NPC? What about parties with multiple PC's - who gets to do the possessing, only the party leader? Could he then also possess another player's summoned creature?
It wouldn't bother me in the least if BD gave players the ability to possess companions, and left it up to module builders to flag them as possessible or not. But it's not some simple thing, and I don't consider it a deal-breaker if they don't.
Most of the issues I see raised here concern spell casters, and being frustrated with their choice of spells. That's a pretty narrow issue to justify the work needed to add full control, and despite some comments, we have no way of knowing if it's actually less "difficult and costly" than improving AI scripting for spell casting instead.
If you want to see full control added because you just prefer playing those kinds of games, that's perfectly fine. Just keep in mind that NWN could have been programmed that way from the start, but a design decision was made to not do that. Those who prefer the system as it is don't really need to be convinced that they're wrong; they're just trying to explain what they like about it.
Bioware did not hire dummies to write their code. The AI in general does a good job, and there are also some reasons for features that more seasoned RPG players might think are odd. Take the example of the dagger-wielding mage... If she did not charge into the fray once her spells were spent, and instead just stood there idly, many players would think it was a bug. I have no doubt many similar behaviors resulted from QA feedback.
I agree that more work could be done to improve spell casting AI. As I've mentioned, I also like having more control over the kinds of orders given to companions. But enabling full possession by default would affect all existing modules, breaking many, and force all future ones to be built with that system in mind. As an optional feature enabled by the module builder, sure - but it's a very bad idea to retrofit it onto every else's module or PW.
That sometimes happens. But the truth is, that should be the minimum, not the gold standard.
An Input board is exactly for what it is - for Input ideas by the community.
https://trello.com/c/lmXsvl13/112-let-the-full-control-of-party-members is now added.