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New Infinity Engine RPG by Beamdog?

FluentFluent Member Posts: 74
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
A new campaign in the Infinity Engine itself since SoD is so good, they could really make something awesome. I for one love the look of the old-school IE games, in some ways even more than how modern games look (the way the graphics look is so unique and enchanting, and I'm saying that as someone who has not grown up with the IE games.)

Of course they're working on NWN:EE now (which is also awesome) but new IE content would be awweeesommeeee. What do you all think?
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Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Nope. Trent has stated that the infinity engine is a nightmare to create for. So I would expect a new engine in the future.
  • FluentFluent Member Posts: 74
    edited January 2018
    Darn. I hope the new engine at least has that old-school isometric look, maybe just a bit higher res. I don't think the new rebooted isometric games compare to the IE games (IMO, I know it's probably the minority opinion.)

    Oh, and what about a modding tool? I guess that would be too much, too, but I did think it would be great if modders could dig in and create campaigns in the Infinity Engine. Man, I'd never leave the house if that happened! :dizzy:
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    not happening
  • FluentFluent Member Posts: 74
    edited January 2018
    Too bad, if true. I did see in Beamdog's job openings they are mentioning that employees would be working on Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, etc. still. Would be cool if that eventually led to a breakthrough where Beamdog just decides to make an entirely new series in the Infinity Engine. With a modding tool for users to make campaigns easier + the potential for setting up a trilogy (or more?) of their own, it would really be something to see. And their knowledge of the engine already would be a great head start to such a project.

    Hey, a fella can dream, right? :blush:

    And yes, that is indeed a huuuuge, unbelievable dream, I know. :smiley: Ah well, really enjoying Dragonspear now!
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    it's inherently hard to make areas in the IE so such a tool wouldn't make content creation accessible to a large number of people, which means that there's no point in making it
  • FluentFluent Member Posts: 74
    bob_veng said:

    it's inherently hard to make areas in the IE so such a tool wouldn't make content creation accessible to a large number of people, which means that there's no point in making it

    Well at one point I'm sure it was hard to make content for NWN, too. Unfortunately Trent said it took damn near 5 years for them to make the NWN modding tool originally and it was very difficult. If they made an IE one (it would likely not take 5 years with modern tech, not even close) we could be talking about the Infinity Engine having content made for it like NWN does. The only thing stopping that from happening is that a user-friendly mod tool has not been created. IMO.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    ThacoBell said:

    Nope. Trent has stated that the infinity engine is a nightmare to create for. So I would expect a new engine in the future.

    Looks like that. https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/942356/#Comment_942356
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    edited February 2018
    I hope they call the new engine Infinity Plus One Engine... that would tickle me.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    If they want to be user friendly, Beamdog should study Bungie. The Marathon and Myth series had incredibly easy to use and powerful tools included with the game itself. Even a computer inept person like me could and did create lots of content (unfortunately, they disappeared with some computer switch back in the days, where I thought I had copied everything but appearently had not :( ).
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Fluent Don't underestimate the obtuseness of the Infinity Engine. NWN was DESIGNED for player made content, the two engines are not remotely equivalent.
  • FluentFluent Member Posts: 74
    edited February 2018
    @ThacoBell, But my point was that NWN was DESIGNED for player made content BECAUSE Trent and company at the time took a whopping 5 years working on the modding tool to MAKE it user friendly. Maybe I am being obtuse but I think if some company (maybe not Beamdog, but they are well suited to do it IMO) did the same for the Infinity Engine, i.e. took time to create a detailed, user friendly modding tool, it could turn out the same as NWN.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    Fluent said:

    @ThacoBell, But my point was that NWN was DESIGNED for player made content BECAUSE Trent and company at the time took a whopping 5 years working on the modding tool to MAKE it user friendly. Maybe I am being obtuse but I think if some company (maybe not Beamdog, but they are well suited to do it IMO) did the same for the Infinity Engine, i.e. took time to create a detailed, user friendly modding tool, it could turn out the same as NWN.

    It is not only about the modding tool, it's also about the code behind it. To have a user-friendly modding tool, you gotta have a compliant code behind it. And, as someone who started to learn how to make mods for the game recently, I can say that there's nothing compliant or intuitive with the Infinity Engine. Near Infinity is a tool that is as good as it gets in term of user-friendliness. And it's still very hard to use for creation of certain aspect of the game (like maps).

    Beamdog made the Infinity Engine a lot more moddable than before by adding a bunch of Opcodes, for exemple. However IE is still IE : it's a bit of a mess for implementing certain types of effects. NWN code was thought for user-friendliness, that's just not true for the Infinity Engine.
  • FluentFluent Member Posts: 74
    So there's absolutely no saving it, if a company or team threw time, effort and dollars at it? I dunno man. I just would love to see it, and I know others would, too. There's something about that dang little engine with it's pixels and background graphics that I can't get enough of, even in 2018...
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    Fluent said:

    bob_veng said:

    it's inherently hard to make areas in the IE so such a tool wouldn't make content creation accessible to a large number of people, which means that there's no point in making it

    Well at one point I'm sure it was hard to make content for NWN, too. Unfortunately Trent said it took damn near 5 years for them to make the NWN modding tool originally and it was very difficult. If they made an IE one (it would likely not take 5 years with modern tech, not even close) we could be talking about the Infinity Engine having content made for it like NWN does. The only thing stopping that from happening is that a user-friendly mod tool has not been created. IMO.
    it was always easy to make content for nwn, and it was always a titanic task to create an original level in IE. sod is a gargantuan fanatical effort by a group of literal engine hacking weirdos that is completely unreplicable ever again in history and has no precedent
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited February 2018
    Fluent said:

    So there's absolutely no saving it, if a company or team threw time, effort and dollars at it? I dunno man. I just would love to see it, and I know others would, too. There's something about that dang little engine with it's pixels and background graphics that I can't get enough of, even in 2018...

    Oh, I'm right there with you man, believe me. I just LOVE the IE aesthetics. I genuinely think that there's not enough games made with it. However, the survival of the IE will probably not go through a user-friendly tool like the one for NWN, because that can't be done, as far as I know. The small but active modding community will continue to produce new content, but it will never reach the scale of NWN in terms of user-made content.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Fluent said:

    So there's absolutely no saving it, if a company or team threw time, effort and dollars at it? I dunno man. I just would love to see it, and I know others would, too. There's something about that dang little engine with it's pixels and background graphics that I can't get enough of, even in 2018...

    With enough resources it would be possible to create from scratch something that looked identical the Infinity Engine but was mod friendly.

    Making maps would still be tricky though, since a high degree of artistic skill is required to draw something in forced-perspective and not have it look off. You could (semi or fully) automate it, but then you would lose the hand drawn look.

    That's pretty much how PoE, Tyranny and Torment: TON where done.
  • FluentFluent Member Posts: 74
    bob_veng said:

    Fluent said:

    bob_veng said:

    it's inherently hard to make areas in the IE so such a tool wouldn't make content creation accessible to a large number of people, which means that there's no point in making it

    Well at one point I'm sure it was hard to make content for NWN, too. Unfortunately Trent said it took damn near 5 years for them to make the NWN modding tool originally and it was very difficult. If they made an IE one (it would likely not take 5 years with modern tech, not even close) we could be talking about the Infinity Engine having content made for it like NWN does. The only thing stopping that from happening is that a user-friendly mod tool has not been created. IMO.
    it was always easy to make content for nwn, and it was always a titanic task to create an original level in IE. sod is a gargantuan fanatical effort by a group of literal engine hacking weirdos that is completely unreplicable ever again in history and has no precedent
    How is it unreplicable if they just did it? The fact they made Siege is exactly why they should keep doing it, lol. They have a great headstart into the knoweldge of how the engine works, much more than any other developer out right now. I'm sure with more time and effort they could improve upon that a great deal. And they are 100% the team to do it now, and if not, the IE will just fade into oblivion with only a few select modders making small content for it. Because who else is going to crack the code of the engine, if not Beamdog, the fanatical hacking weirdoes who made an expansion in that very engine for a 20 year old game? :smiley:
    Arctodus said:

    Fluent said:

    So there's absolutely no saving it, if a company or team threw time, effort and dollars at it? I dunno man. I just would love to see it, and I know others would, too. There's something about that dang little engine with it's pixels and background graphics that I can't get enough of, even in 2018...

    Oh, I'm right there with you man, believe me. I just LOVE the IE aesthetics. I genuinely think that there's not enough games made with it. However, the survival of the IE will probably not go through a user-friendly tool like the one for NWN, because that can't be done, as far as I know. The small but active modding community will continue to produce new content, but it will never reach the scale of NWN in terms of user-made content.
    I'm just not seeing what the reason is that they can't create a more user-friendly modding tool, though. If money wasn't a factor, could a team spend a couple years working exclusively on that project to make one? It seems to come down to, "It's hard", and if I had to guess based on Trent's talks in the recent livestreams, it's not a cost-effective business option.

    But can we agree that it *could* be done given the proper resources thrown at it?
  • FluentFluent Member Posts: 74
    edited February 2018
    Fardragon said:

    Fluent said:

    So there's absolutely no saving it, if a company or team threw time, effort and dollars at it? I dunno man. I just would love to see it, and I know others would, too. There's something about that dang little engine with it's pixels and background graphics that I can't get enough of, even in 2018...

    With enough resources it would be possible to create from scratch something that looked identical the Infinity Engine but was mod friendly.

    Making maps would still be tricky though, since a high degree of artistic skill is required to draw something in forced-perspective and not have it look off. You could (semi or fully) automate it, but then you would lose the hand drawn look.

    That's pretty much how PoE, Tyranny and Torment: TON where done.
    See, that's interesting. But PoE, Tyranny and Torment do not look as good (IMHO) as the Infinity Engine games. They do not have that same charm and "feel" to me. And to be quite honest, it's not even close.

    And again, that's not nostalgia talking as I did not grow up with the IE games. I played BG:EE for the first time in 2015, fell in love with it and now I'm hooked on those games. :smile: There's just something about the Infinity Engine that I absolutely adore. It has a less cartoon-ish look in a way, a more detailed, "traditional roleplaying" feel to it. Good details in the sprites, gorgeous backgrounds and just a feeling that you are actually in the Forgotten Realms.

    I just would hope some people try and crack the IE more, if Beamdog doesn't. Siege of Dragonspear shows it still has a *ton* of life and potential left in it.

    Now, if a new engine could be made that looks simply like a higher res version of the IE, then that would be cool. But IMO, the Pillars engine is not that. It looks too much like a 3D game to me.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    @Fluent If money's not a problem, everything's possible. But, I get the feeling that it would take a TITANIC amount of ressources to make the IE user-friendly. And I think I underestimate the complexity of that project. @Fardragon is right on that one : in every case, it would be a lot more efficient to make something else from scratch that exactly looks like the IE. And would that project still be cost-effective ? I'm not even sure.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited February 2018
    Fluent said:

    Fardragon said:

    Fluent said:

    So there's absolutely no saving it, if a company or team threw time, effort and dollars at it? I dunno man. I just would love to see it, and I know others would, too. There's something about that dang little engine with it's pixels and background graphics that I can't get enough of, even in 2018...

    With enough resources it would be possible to create from scratch something that looked identical the Infinity Engine but was mod friendly.

    Making maps would still be tricky though, since a high degree of artistic skill is required to draw something in forced-perspective and not have it look off. You could (semi or fully) automate it, but then you would lose the hand drawn look.

    That's pretty much how PoE, Tyranny and Torment: TON where done.
    See, that's interesting. But PoE, Tyranny and Torment do not look as good (IMHO) as the Infinity Engine games. They do not have that same charm and "feel" to me. And to be quite honest, it's not even close.
    I suspect this is because of the use of 3-d modelling in the creation of the backgrounds and sprites. To do them entirely by hand and give them that "crude" look would take around ten times as long and require a significantly higher level of artistic skill.

    Baldur's Gate looks the way it does because of extreme dedication and skill. You can't put either of those in an easy-to-use package*.



    *Maybe Professor Snape could teach you how to brew a potion for it.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Harping on it won't change anything. IE is held together with nothing but hopes and dreams. Compared to just about any modern engine, it is a janky bug ridden mess. There are still bugs from 15 years ago that the cause of STILL hasn't been found. And it seems like everything done with it, creates a couple new errors. Its much more feasible to try to make a new engine.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    To put it a slightly different way, Baldur's Gate is great despite the Infinity Engine, not because of it.
  • FluentFluent Member Posts: 74
    edited February 2018
    gugulug5000 said:

    I'm going to keep advocating for a small DLC for BGII that includes characters from Siege of Dragonspear. It's not a completely new game, but it is still new content. I'd be more than willing to buy mini-DLCs for BG and ID as well.

    Same here, for sure. Multiple copies if I can afford them, so I can give some away.

    All I know is that Siege of Dragonspear is a pretty great expansion and I wish we'd get more Infinity Engine content from somewhere, anywhere. Apparently no one else here wants to push for it with me so I guess I'll just stop harping on it now. :)

    If a new engine is made I just hope it isn't another Pillars engine. As much as I enjoyed Pillars and Torment I also found them lacking compared to the IE games.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    That's not the fault of the engine. I believe it is possible to include fully hand drawn maps in the PoE engine. The thing that prevents it is economics - these days it's simply not cost-effective to do all that art by hand.
  • gugulug5000gugulug5000 Member Posts: 248
    Fluent said:

    gugulug5000 said:

    I'm going to keep advocating for a small DLC for BGII that includes characters from Siege of Dragonspear. It's not a completely new game, but it is still new content. I'd be more than willing to buy mini-DLCs for BG and ID as well.

    Same here, for sure. Multiple copies if I can afford them, so I can give some away.

    All I know is that Siege of Dragonspear is a pretty great expansion and I wish we'd get more Infinity Engine content from somewhere, anywhere. Apparently no one else here wants to push for it with me so I guess I'll just stop harping on it now. :)

    If a new engine is made I just hope it isn't another Pillars engine. As much as I enjoyed Pillars and Torment I also found them lacking compared to the IE games.
    Well if Beamdog starts releasing modules as DLC for NWN maybe they'll realize that it's actually quite a good way of making money and come back to the infinity engine games and release some small DLC's for them. We just need to make sure Trent knows that there are people who would love new DLC for them.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    gugulug5000 said:

    Fluent said:

    gugulug5000 said:

    I'm going to keep advocating for a small DLC for BGII that includes characters from Siege of Dragonspear. It's not a completely new game, but it is still new content. I'd be more than willing to buy mini-DLCs for BG and ID as well.

    Same here, for sure. Multiple copies if I can afford them, so I can give some away.

    All I know is that Siege of Dragonspear is a pretty great expansion and I wish we'd get more Infinity Engine content from somewhere, anywhere. Apparently no one else here wants to push for it with me so I guess I'll just stop harping on it now. :)

    If a new engine is made I just hope it isn't another Pillars engine. As much as I enjoyed Pillars and Torment I also found them lacking compared to the IE games.
    Well if Beamdog starts releasing modules as DLC for NWN maybe they'll realize that it's actually quite a good way of making money.
    The trouble is, it isn't. Even with an easy-to-use toolset like NWN the cost of production often exceeds the revenue generated.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    I would like to see these things happen too, but it's up to the modders now. Trent has been clear about it. And there's some work done already : LavaDelVortel finished a mod that close the Skie arc in BG2EE. You can find it here :

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/68711/mod-skie-the-cost-of-one-girls-soul

    Artemius also has a Caelar mod on the back burner. So, things will be done by modders, but most probably never by Beamdog themselves. Is it the answer you want to hear ? Well, it's not, but that the harsh truth, I guess. Trent must have made his calculations and decided that it's not worth the money to do so.
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