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Should NWN EE servers be able to monetize?

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  • omedon666omedon666 Member Posts: 48
    Allowed? Not really my call to make.

    Entitled to players? Nope, and that's what will essentially kill any worthwhile server's effort to monetize. There is literally nothing special about any one PW except what the community makes of it, and a community built in the shadow of "that person just paid for X" is poisoned right out of the gate.

    As for covering server costs... the cost of getting to play god and host a public facing 24 hour party for gamers from around the world is measured in actual real life money. That's not the concern of any of those players. They're not entitled to space on your server, but you're not entitled to players. Want a server? You eat the costs.

    Donations are what they are, but most servers I've ever been involved with have refused all donations because the staff refused to give players even the faintest inkling of leverage over the server's direction or game balance. I respected those server's heavily, and that ethic carried forward into my own project: my world, my rules, my expense.
    FlashburnvoidofopinionProont
  • EtherealVanityEtherealVanity Member Posts: 12
    edited January 2018
    omedon666 said:

    Allowed? Not really my call to make.

    Entitled to players? Nope, and that's what will essentially kill any worthwhile server's effort to monetize. There is literally nothing special about any one PW except what the community makes of it, and a community built in the shadow of "that person just paid for X" is poisoned right out of the gate

    Having visited the server, I can confirm this breeds an immense sense of entitlement. What more, it seems to make people believe they can act like complete [insert cuss] against other people because they are protected by how they are paying for their position. Casually calling others names, bullying and the like.

    The next problematique is when if anyone speaks up against these 'donors' the staff then protects them, because why wouldn't they? They are protecting their financial interests.

    So I agree fully in that this poisons a community right out of the gate.

    MrDamageProont
  • ThorssonThorsson Member Posts: 190
    Donations for stuff in game is a bad idea, but anonymous donations that get you nothing (not even official recognition) seem fine to me.
    ProontTrinital
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    I'm not sure it's still a donation if you get something of virtual value for it. I wonder what a lawyer's take on it would be and if it has tax implications.
  • DM_DjinnDM_Djinn Member Posts: 112
    As the Creative Director of the Knights of Noromath project I would like to assure everyone that no "monetization" of NWN is occurring in 2018. No one makes money off of NWN, period. However, people who develop their own servers will always get satisfaction from slinging mud at their perceived rivals. Anyone who joins our server can select the background of "Knight," so there's never any reason to donate to our project unless you love us and you really want to.
    AndarianRaetzain
  • The_BlackCatThe_BlackCat Member Posts: 1
    edited January 2018
    I think perhaps an explanation of how the Patreon actually works would be a benefit to you all who seem to have an issue with this server taking donations.

    This server has been running for a little over two years now. I have been a player on KON since it started and yes I am a Patron. The KON server is a RP server allowing any player to roll a character from a list of supported classes. Clarification: ANYONE can roll a Knight or end up being a Lord or Baron IG if they put in the Legwork to do so.
    Donations are accepted on the server through either Patreon or Makersupport. Depending on your donation level depends on the Rewards offered to players who choose in helping keep the server running. These levels of patronage are defined as Soldier, Knight, Lord, and Baron.

    Level: Soldier
    Rewards:
    A color coded discord role which simply changes the color of your name and allows you to see sneak peak messages stating the upcoming changes on the server concerning new Developements like the creation of a new area, or adding spell component requirements to Wizards.

    Level: Knight
    Rewards:
    Those listed in the Soldier Class plus a Writ of Knighthood.
    Now I know people have misconceptions about this Writ as people assume that means you have a mountain of benefits as a Knight. Realistically what this writ allows you to do is get free horses at the stables and then gives your character a mountain of restrictions listed within the Knightly Code. A player has to choose to invest time in RP in order to be acknowledged on the Server as a Knight by the crown.

    Level: Lord
    Rewards:
    Those Listed in Knight and a small bonus feat.

    Level: Baron
    Rewards:
    Those listed in Lord and a development newsletter showing where these contributions are going towards.

    Any IG progression of a character is based on the time and effort a player invests into that character. You wanna walk around being a Knight. You have to fulfill the role of a Knight, find a lord to serve, fulfill some quests etc. To imply that this server specifically is in any way a "Pay to Play" Server is a gross misuse of this forum and I highly recommend for you to reevaluate your opinion.

    This specific topic has been brought up before on the Servers Discord and on their Facebook page. I am aware you Ethereal were displeased with your time on the server. But to go about slandering us and allowing for these misconceptions to continue are unacceptable and show why its better that you are no longer a member of the KON community.

    It's also interesting to see all of these PW admins and developers who wouldn't "try the server after seeing their donation page", when they all clearly have other reasons for not wanting players on KON.

    For everyone else jumping to conclusions on here that hasn't been on the server. I recommend you get IG and find out what we're really about.
    RaetzainDM_Djinn
  • TorgrimmerTorgrimmer Member Posts: 331
    edited January 2018
    Please dont turn this into Pay-to-win or Pay-to-Play. I myself is a content maker/modder, and as far as i go my content is free, @Niv has spoken as his own idea, not official but is his own thinking and I agree with him.
    [Deleted User]
  • voidofopinionvoidofopinion Member, Moderator Posts: 1,248

    For everyone else jumping to conclusions on here that hasn't been on the server. I recommend you get IG and find out what we're really about.

    @The_BlackCat

    A small question for you if I may?

    Do you think there would have been so much room to misinterpret the tier rewards if your patreon page contained the same details you have presented here in your post?

    Personally, I would't care if your world had loot boxes and key drops. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

    However, if someone can and has used that page against you then perhaps it would be a good idea to do a little editing and add a some more detail to your rewards page. It may save you from such headaches in the future.

    All the best,

    - Jamie
    KendrixArgon
  • ThorssonThorsson Member Posts: 190
    Sad to see that there appears to still be so much discord between servers on NWN.

    As someone who is not a server admin, nor tried the server, I'd have to say that the donation system just seems like a bad idea, not just in and of itself - better if the whole community saw what was in development for instance - but as something that might give an impression that donators might see other, unofficial advantages. It's not as though such behaviour is unknown.
  • DavkasDavkas Member Posts: 1
    I was donating to them not to gain advantages but to help out. Due to losing my job i am not able to donate but they did not remove anything from me and it has been months since i have donated.
    The server is filled with great and enjoyable people. Donating does and will not protect you from getting a kick in the ass for bullying or anything like it.
    Its not a get out of jail free card.
    DM_Djinn
  • DM_DjinnDM_Djinn Member Posts: 112
    edited March 2018
    It should simply be reiterated that the Knights of Noromath server is not "For Profit" and any accusations that we're actually making money on NWN are very poorly founded. We're simply off-setting our costs. Frankly, this contract is one that exists between us and our members. We're providing an online campaign, where players can log in and have a genuine AD&D experience, and we're very fortunate that some of our players want to give back to our project to help keep us strong. No player is ever required to donate to access any content... You can choose "Knight" when you design your character. [edited by a moderator]

    We wish all other server developers the best of luck and encourage you to find ways to build your projects and gain traction that don't include slinging stones at other people! We are where we are today because we have been providing a great campaign that people love, for years, and you can do the same if you put in the work.
    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
  • redcrayonredcrayon Member Posts: 1
    I really don't see a problem with the server accepting donations and offering an RP reward for it. I play on KoN myself. I don't personally donate, but I would were my finances more stable. As Djinn mentioned, the offered rewards are available to all players through feat selections anyway, it's just a little RP "leg up" as a thank you for helping the team meet their costs.

    The pay to win talk is a non-issue. People aren't receiving bonus XP, items, or anything of that sort in exchange for monetary donations (the stipend mentioned comes with the Knight background feat, as far as I'm aware).

    My personal experience of the server has been great. The DMs are amongst the most active and creative I've played under, and I've seen no special or preferential treatment towards donators vs non-donators. They're fast and fair sorting out issues, and always on hand to help or just have a chat. If they want to recoup their outgoings then that's entirely up to them, as is how they do it. Nobody is pressured or forced to donate, and the quality of play doesn't suffer as a result of not donating.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Thread temporarily closed while the moderating team reviews some reports. It may be re-opened sometime tomorrow; check back then.
  • TrinitalTrinital Member Posts: 59
    edited March 2018
    There are a few servers I know of that have had a large amount of success with Patreon.
    Servers cost money and if it offers good value - people happily chuck a few bucks.

    I think I disagree more with perks being offered, that's the huge turn off for me. I am much more likely to donate 5 bucks if there's no potential value to be garnered for larger donations.

    That said - as long as the money is freely given through donation, it's hard to complain.
    (Higher end servers can be 80 - 100 dollars a month, especially if you plan to max out at 90+ players)

    TL;DR - What Niv said.
    Proont
  • DM_DjinnDM_Djinn Member Posts: 112
    edited March 2018
    Wow, what a great response, @JuliusBorisov! I really appreciate the time taken to put it together. Hopefully that will clear things up for people and they can choose the platforms they desire for offsetting the costs of hosting their servers. As has been stated, you can enjoy 100% of the content on the Knights of Noromath without donating, so it's not as if we have monetized anything anyway. We're very fortunate that we have folks who want to support our project. :)
    Post edited by Tresset on
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    The general concern I believe was whether or not there was content being exchanged for said monetization. From the clarification that was posted we can see this stipulation is reiterated and expressed in WotC's own terms, that is it seems they require all content may be accessed freely by the community. In terms of how donations have been handled by servers in the past it doesn't seem that the policy has changed. No doubt this covers things such as free access to feats, classes, spells, armor, and other types of content related to the game itself.
    Proont
  • LibertyisbackLibertyisback Member Posts: 49
    i often thought about the right to monetize servers, given NWNs ToS always put restrictions on that right. I think public donations with badges/privileges etc is acceptable.

    However, I do think the right to monetize should be given. In my idea, i think it shoul dbe a policed/governed right. So for example, there could be a community review board with developers sitting on it, and maybe a voting system to allow servers to monetise content. And this right be reviewed every year or so.

    Very often, I see many great PWs who are really better than Age of COnan, Aion or other supposedly great mmos. Why are they better? Mainly because of the NWN engine and good content too. I often think, these PWs would be fabulous if they were more populated.

    Imagine those 128 maximum player PW/Team Pvp NWN servers filled with 128 players. They would be awesome. I think if they were given a right to monitise, players from Aio/ AoC etc would sit up and take notice and consider actually playing for the right to join.

    At the moment, many fo them do not even bother. They seem to think that if NWN is just free to play, then it cannot be any good. Is this a good reason to monetise? It is primarily a marketing motive.

  • ProlericProleric Member Posts: 1,270
    @Libertyisback in view of @JuliusBorisov 's post, you probably need to take this up with Wizards of the Coast. No one here can deliver what you want.
  • AndarianAndarian Member Posts: 185
    edited March 2018
    Proleric said:

    @Libertyisback in view of @JuliusBorisov 's post, you probably need to take this up with Wizards of the Coast. No one here can deliver what you want.

    That was always the situation, though. Paid modding in any form was only ever going to be possible if Beamdog and WotC decided to renegotiate the terms of the EULA to allow it. If they're not open to considering a case for that, then of course it won't change. The purpose of threads like this is simply to let them know that there are players and builders willing to make (as well as to object to) that case. The rest is up to them.
  • EtherealVanityEtherealVanity Member Posts: 12
    DM_Djinn said:



    In the meantime, our Knights of Noromath Home Page is the best place to view the various game modifications, system adjustments, campaign details, and house rules we have adapted for our purposes. It would be the sincerest flattery were anyone to use them for their campaigns whether in NWN or in tabletop games! Our campaign is backed by hard copies of AD&D books, 3.5 books, Forgotten Realms novels, and we have a recommended reading list for those that want to dig deeper into FR lore.

    I'd appreciate it if you'd remove your post. This is not a thread for you to advertise in and it's completely off-topic.
    Tresset
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262
    edited March 2018
    @DM_Djinn If you want to advertise your world you should do it in the proper place. I see you already have a thread for this in its proper place so I will just remove the ad part of your comment here. Please make sure to stay on topic, everyone.
  • DM_DjinnDM_Djinn Member Posts: 112
    I think it's important to point out that many servers are developing systems and content that people want to support the effort of. The links I posted are to current articles about newly released systems that are apart of our independent development cycle, so I thought it was pretty relevant!
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