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Multiclass with kits - how much is it cheating?

MonoCanallaMonoCanalla Member Posts: 291
How guilty should I feel? I’m playing a Swashbuckler/fighter and in the future I plan to use a kensai/thief. In any case, this applies to all combination. How much this breaks the game, umbalances it, and makes the character overpowered.

If is not posssible in the vanilla game it might be for a good reason... is it? On the other hand, in 3rd edition is perfectly legal...

Im having a lot of fun with my fighter swashy, but I don’t want to take advantage and lose the standard challenge.

semiticgod

Comments

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,084
    There's at least one mod that already lets you do that, and mods are never considered cheating. Basically, if it comes from a mod, it might be overpowered, but it's still legit. If you did it with EEKeeper, it imitates a mod's behavior, which is essentially the same thing. No one would look askance on a Fighter/Swashbuckler run.

    Honestly, a Swashbuckler/Fighter multi-class is really just a Fighter/Thief with some modest bonuses to hit, damage, and AC, at the cost of some skill points and the more meaningful loss of a backstab multiplier (though I've heard that some implementations of multi-classed Swashbucklers give them a backstab multiplier anyway). It sounds only marginally stronger than an unkitted character.

    A Barbarian/Cleric of Lathander, Berserker/Enchanter/Assassin, or Wizard Slayer/Totemic Druid would be good examples of truly broken characters.

    ThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,103
    It's 100% cheating, but don't stress over it. You're allowed to enjoy your game however you please.

    The class restrictions in 2E are unnecessarily stifling. They got rid of that stuff for a reason.

    Honestly I think very few Class Combinations are so powerful as to remove "The Standard Challenge".

    Most of the challenge in the game comes from figuring out how to beat an enemy, and that rarely comes down to just having the better stat sheet.

    Contemplative_HamsterCaptRory
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    edited August 2018
    You should feel this guilty:

    [.........................]

    (Insert your own measure of guilt there.)

    Actually I have to say a Swash/fighter is pretty bad, as those things go. It's not about guilt, or how powerful it is - an Assassin/fighter is probably WAY more OP, for instance. It's just that, the Swashbuckler gives you the same benefit that a fighter is already supposed to have. When they are put together, due to the game engine, those benefits are compounded. (IIRC the PnP Swashbuckler is supposed to have "the same thac0 as a fighter" so that's a huge +10 bonus, but a multiclass Swash/fighter would not actually get that bonus because he already gets it from his fighter levels... I hope that was intelligible :lol:) So a multi Swash/fighter in this flawed game engine ends up actually a better fighter than a single-class fighter... which makes me sad for the single-class fighter. :cry:

    tl;dr: in my experience you'll have more fun playing interesting combinations than powerful combinations. And the important question is not "is it okay to do this," but rather "will it be fun to do this?"

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Contemplative_Hamster
  • MonoCanallaMonoCanalla Member Posts: 291
    I’m for the interesting combinations, of course. Swashy/fighter and kensai/thief are for me for pure roleplaying reasons, not merely power gaming. I also treasured a Priest of Eilistraee/Fighter wich I think fits quite well.

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    If you have beaten the game already eh. I cheat all the time to extract more fun from the engine. I mean, if you do a challenge, like the popular no reload challenge, then I understand why you might consider it cheating. If not, then cheat to your hearts content. Just keep in mind that to much cheating makes the game boring (although a swashy fighter seems rather mild to me).

  • This is a single-player game that you have probably completed betwern 5 and 300 times. How is what you're proposing cheating? Who would you be cheating?

    StummvonBordwehrThacoBellsemiticgod
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,049
    Its a single player game. Go hog wild. The point is that you have fun playing.

    semiticgodStummvonBordwehr
  • MonoCanallaMonoCanalla Member Posts: 291
    Reflecting about this, is funny how overpowered a vanilla legal Kensage is, or a Ranger > Cleric compares to this low key kit multiclasses

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,049
    Aren't multiclass kits allowed by 2ed PnP anyway?

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,103
    ThacoBell said:

    Aren't multiclass kits allowed by 2ed PnP anyway?

    No idea.

    There are mods that create kits specifically for multiclasses, so it doesn't seem to be an engine limitation that prevents it. The Enhanced Editions have overhauled the engine substantially though, unlocking possibilities for modders that were not present in the originals.

  • MonoCanallaMonoCanalla Member Posts: 291
    edited August 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    Aren't multiclass kits allowed by 2ed PnP anyway?

    Even better. You could create your own kit! You could choose any crazy combination between all the traits from all classes (like mixing thief abilities and divine spell casting), and at the end and depending what did you put on the recipe, you got a xp leveling table.

    @Chronicler, which mods? I don’t have them. I’m using EEkeeper, which just allows one kit with the other vanilla class


    ThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,103

    ThacoBell said:

    Aren't multiclass kits allowed by 2ed PnP anyway?

    Even better. You could create your own kit! You could choose any crazy combination between all the traits from all classes (like mixing thief abilities and divine spell casting), and at the end and depending what did you put on the recipe, you got a xp leveling table.

    @Chronicler, which mods? I don’t have them. I’m using EEkeeper, which just allows one kit with the other vanilla class


    Might and Guile has some cool ones. Fighter/Thieves for example can be a Thug (exactly what it says on the tin) or a Tomb Runner (Indiana Jones type).

    ThacoBell
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    edited August 2018

    There are mods that create kits specifically for multiclasses,

    which mods? I don’t have them.

    various mods add multiclass kits. As of the 2.0 patches these kits appear right in the menus, just like single-class kits. Although for that to work they have to be actual multiclass kits, not single-class kits you put on a multiclass character. So when you play a fighter/thief, Swashbuckler will not appear but my Tomb Runner will.

    EDIT - like so:

    ThacoBell said:

    Aren't multiclass kits allowed by 2ed PnP anyway?

    IIRC, in the beginning they were pretty firmly not. The concept of kits was a bit vague... in the Cleric's and Wizard's Handbooks they were basically simple professions or backgrounds; while in the Thief's/Bard's/Fighter's Handbooks they were more specifically specializations. The stated rule was, if you are multiclass, your "specialization" is in dividing your time and energy between two classes, and you could not focus enough on either one to have a kit.

    Then the Complete Book of Elves happened, and Pandora's box was opened. First it was true multiclass kits (hello Bladesinger!), then it was more or less "whatever your DM lets you get away with."

    ChroniclerThacoBell
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    ThacoBell said:

    Aren't multiclass kits allowed by 2ed PnP anyway?

    Yes, they are.

    And there are kits that are legal only for multiclasses (like the Bladesinger).

    ChroniclerThacoBell
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