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How to build an Evil backstabber?

Let's say I want to build a Rogue of some sort that I want to play throughout BG1, 2, and ToB, and I actually want to try to use the Backstab feature (speaking of which, what weapons can I backstab with?), how should I build her? Assume that I want a competent melee fighter who can *really* dish out the hurt. She doesn't need ot be tanky, but she shouldn't be dying constantly and forcing me to reload either.

Should I be going with some sort of Thief/Fighter multiclass? Some sort of Dual class? Pure Assassin?
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Comments

  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    edited December 2012
    Backstabbable weapons should still be any weapons that Thieves can use. I hear that the Staff of Striking is the best backstabby weapon in the first game, and I believe that you can get it from Durlag's Tower.
    Alsoooo... Cleric/Thief is a pretty appealing option, due to Sanctuary and something-or-other...I know for a fact that a Cleric/Thief of the appropriate level and/or ability score allocation belting out a Draw Upon Holy Might, as well as a few other buffs and then a Sanctuary or drinking a Potion of Invisibility with the aforementioned staff in hand would be nasty.

    I'm more of a Magic-User/Thief person, myself, so somebody else should be able to fill you in on some more of the Cleric/Thief and otherclass/Thief love, though I will say right now that it's a fun combination to play if you decide to look into it.
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    Well, if you wanted to do Cleric/Thief, when would you Dual class, and in what order? Or would you rather do a multiclass?
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    Oh, and this would be in an all-evil (maybe some neutrals) party.
  • LetundielLetundiel Member Posts: 12
    I played fighter/thief multiclass and it was really fun and kinda easy mode tbh.I dual wielded long swords but if u want to be a backstabber i guess single handed weapon style is better for critical hits.(Even you dual wield,long sword +2 from naskhel mines area backstabbs really well). Try to reach 100 on hide in shadows and move silently and as you may already know just backstab,hide around corner,come again.
    Cant say much about bg2 and tob though.
  • DeucetipherDeucetipher Member Posts: 521
    If you want it tactically and not specifically to play as, I'd recommend grabbing Shar-Teel and dualing her to thief. If you do it at three, you can put 4 pips in longsword. If you want, you can even edit her with near infinity so that she starts with two pips in longsword and two-weapon, like she did in tutu.

    This would let you play kensai through bg1 and part of 2, dual at say 9 or 13 to thief and become a brutally effective backstabber and melee combatant, eventually getting use any item and equipping armor as needed on your Kensai/thief.
  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831
    Fighter/Thief and two-handed weapons to backstab... :P and if you import it into SoA and get high enough level, you can backstab with the Holy Avenger :P
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    Wait, you can backstab with 2 hand swords?

    If I Go Kensai up til 9 (so I an get Grandmastery on a weapon), I'll have to choose carefully cuz that's the only weapon I'll ever get GM in. What's the best weapon choice for someone who wants to do a crapton of backstab damage? Also, is backstab is a multiplier? Like a 2x backstab just multiples whatever damage I do by 2? If that stacks with Kensai's Kiai...
  • DeucetipherDeucetipher Member Posts: 521
    I thought you didn't get backstab bonuses with non-thief weapons? I mean, it'll say backstab but it won't actually apply the multiplier, iirc
  • DeucetipherDeucetipher Member Posts: 521
    There are a couple of really nasty staffs that do pretty well. Personally, I prefer something bladed, though that is largely an aesthetic choice. Katanas do d10 damage but can be tricky to track down (though you'll have one of the best weapons in BG2, and a really good one in Tob), and the beginning of BG will be pretty miserable, unless you scrape up the 700 or so gold you'll need to buy one from winthrop (they don't break.)

    There are excellent shortswords throughout the saga, as well as longswords. Scimitar prof gives you a ton of flexibility, and eventually gets you the scarlet ninjato, an excellent off-hand weapon (gives you an extra main hand attack. Also giving extra attacks: Kundane, shortsword and Belm, Scimitar)

    In addition, you can take single weapon style and double your chance of a crit. I like dual wielding, personally, but a thief prof into single weapon isn't a bad idea if you're willing to switch to a single weapon for backstab and back for melee.
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    You can only backstab with weapons the thief can use. If you want to be a 2 handed backstabber you have to use the quarterstaff.

    If you really want to focus on backstabbing and want it right out of the blocks you want to play a Fighter/Thief multiclass. Half-Orc is the best choice of race due to the high strength score increasing damage and THAC0. If you don't like Half-Orcs, an Elf using a longsword is a decent option. They have a higher dex, so higher hide/move silently, higher AC and a racial bonus to hit with longswords.

    If you're more patient and don't mind waiting for a few levels (or the entire first game) you can make a deadly fighter/thief dual class with grand mastery. Just be sure to use a weapon that is useable by the thief class.
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    Two handed style can also double crit chance, and quarterstaves count as two handed weapon right? As for Scarlet Ninjato, isn't it a monk-only weapon?
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    GoodSteve said:

    If you're more patient and don't mind waiting for a few levels (or the entire first game) you can make a deadly fighter/thief dual class with grand mastery. Just be sure to use a weapon that is useable by the thief class.

    Yeah but I don't know what weapon type will be good in BG2 and ToB, *and* hopefully if available in BG1 so I won't be playing with a totally gimped PC in BG1 :)

    Should I go ahead and get GM in Quarterstaff? Is it viable for end-game in BG2 and ToB?

  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    Yes they count as two-handed weapons. Quarterstaff is probably the best wepon to backstab with in the first game since you can get the +3 Quarterstaff and the +3 bonus is multiplied by your backstab multiplier. The only other thief weapon (to my knowledge) that gets to +3 is the shortsword of backstabbing +3.
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    But do we get humongously good Quarterstaves in the sequels as well?
  • DeucetipherDeucetipher Member Posts: 521
    You are correct, but you'll grab use any item. Still can't backstab with it, which is why I limit its use to off-hand. Backstab only considers your primary weapon.

    @goodsteve is correct. If you want to backstab out the gate, one of those choices is the ideal. Note that the elven racial bonus to longswords actually applies to all swords.

    Believe me, I know that in terms of raw backstab damage, staves are best. Staff of striking in BG1 then staff of the ram and upgrade in BG2 and ToB. Like I said, I prefer blades for aesthetic reasons, and they're perfectly serviceable. IMO, you'll also be more effective in regular melee dual wielding than with staffs, particularly if you use weapons that boost apr.
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    Hmm...should I still go with Staves if I plan on going Kensai for the entire first game and then dual-ing to Assassin in the sequel?
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    There are some great staffs in the second game aswell. Staff of the Ram has already been mentioned and you can buy the Staff of Rynn +4 at the adventurers mart at the very start of the game (provided you can afford it.)
  • DeucetipherDeucetipher Member Posts: 521
    edited December 2012
    keep in mind you will not be able to dual class to a kit, only plain thief. Staves are a great choice for backstab-centric players, though I personally prefer blades.
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    Wait, when I dual class I can't go to a kit? awwwww :(

    For BG1, it appears I can get access to a +1 Staff decently early on in the gamr, but that's it until the staff +3 very late in the game right? Hmm...might give my Kensai a bit of a hard time, but I'm sure she'll manage. The lack of armor is gonna suck though.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited December 2012
    Actually, the only thing keeping you from the +3 staff is money...you buy it in Ulgoth's Beard, which is merely a road trip away from the start of the game...might have to dodge some Ankhegs..but that's the biggest challenge involved. Though it's fairly pricy. The staff of striking I'm not fond it...it is undisputedly the highest damage in BG1...but it has limited charges and loses a charge per hit (the recharge trick is technically an exploit). If you don't mind sacrificing the ring of wizardry, you could have enough gold to buy it right after turning in Bassilus's bounty.

    To be honest the assassin isn't worth it. They don't gain BS any faster then a normal thief (it takes till lvl 16 before you start to see benefit), and they take a MASSIVE skill penalty. The +1 hit/damage is pretty nice, as is poison weapon, but they don't really make up for the fact it takes a LONG time to to really hit your stride, vs a normal thief. For the record, anything bigger then a x5 backstab is usually overkill and wasted, save for a handful of enemies that can't be backstabbed anyway (most dragons, most demons, demon knights, beholders adamantite golems, Kuo-tua (well...they're a special case, but it's just not worth trying to set up a backstab on them)).

    The bounty hunter is probably my favorite...just like a plain thief, but BETTER, cause those extra special traps give them more options for things that can't be backstabbed. While poison weapon for the assassin serves a similar purpose and can be effective with a 3 attack ranged weapon...it's not nearly as satisfying.
  • ego1steego1ste Member Posts: 88
    I started playing Human Warrior(3)/Thief in BG:EE and he is really great, for weapons i choose 1handed weapon style, and long swords. When i dualclassed i put point in shortbow and shortsword. I got Imoen as a thief for traps and locks so i only got stealth stuff :D With backstab x4 i deal some serious damage
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    How much does the +3 staff cost approximately? And can a thief try to Steal it?
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    With an evil party, my rep will be low, and it'll probably cost even MOAR XD Oh well I can live with Neera's staff until later in the game.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    edited December 2012
    For the strongest build you will need a lvl13 Kensai dual classed to a thief with grand mastery in quarter staffs and specialization in two handed weapons.

    This however will take a lot of time when you will start playing the character in BG1, so you might want to start with a thief and dual class to a fighter. This on the other hand will limit your backstabbing multiplier.

    Considering that in order to obtain the benefits from both classes in BG2, you will probably be best off multi-classing a half-orc fighter/thief.

    I myself rolled a human thief, took one level and dualed to fighter, just for use in BG1. I chose grandmastery in quarter staves, maxed out hide in shadows, bought shadow armor and the staff +3. Character is way overpowered. Since I also picked up boots of speed now I'm practically playing in god mode most of the game.

    So in hindsight: don't use this combination at all and make a class that is actually fun to play.
  • darthchairdarthchair Member Posts: 191
    How to build an evil backstabber...

    Make a throne out of swords.
  • The_CheesemanThe_Cheeseman Member Posts: 175
    I played a multi-class Kensai/Assassin in a heavily modded BGT solo-run and had an absolute blast. He was a ninja, usually dual-wielding. The total lack of armor meant that "hit and fade" was really my only tactical option, but a x7 backstab with Kai and Critical Strike HLA both active is more unfiltered awesome than is probably healthy.

    I totally lost interest in the character once I got Use Any Item, though. Any hint of challenge just evaporated. The character was fun mostly because of the style of play its restrictions dictated, and once those restrictions were gone, it was just an overpowered slaughter-machine.

    I suggest a fighter/thief, it's fun!
  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    If you go with a dual class fighter/thief, what's the best level to dual at for BG1 only?
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    7, extra half attack, combined with specialization in a weapon gives 2 attacks, 3 if dual-wielding. Nice for when you're in a bad position to backstab or against stuff not worth the effort. Also hitting thief 8 is a joke.
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    If you want pure, raw numbers, there really isn't a "viable" way to do it as in make a guy who'll be good from start to finish. There will be a huge portion where you won't have your abilities.

    But, an assassin who dual-classes to cleric after he hits x7 backstab (which isn't til level freakin' 21) can eventually do over 1000 damage with a backstab critical hit.
  • tyl998tyl998 Member Posts: 144
    So if I'm a level 13 Kensai, about how long would it take for me to get to level 14 Thief?
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