Montaron is the 2nd best ranged DD in the game with slings + he can backstab. + he comes early in the game, just at the beginning :-) If you don't like Imoen - take Monty as main Thief. Solid performer. Give him +2 in single wep style and he rocks.
Whenever I play an evil party I take Xzar and Montaron with me. They're just awesome, especially Xzar. Technically Edwin is much better, but I never choose companions because of their stats, but those I like the most.
Why would ANYONE dual class out of an arcane caster?
Well, the biggest reason is if you're not going to be gaining any more levels in the arcane class due to the level cap. If you get Xzar to level 7 Necromancer and give him a Tome of Wisdom you can dual class him to be a Necromancer 7/Cleric 8. He will have the highest wizard AND cleric spells in the game. As a Necro/Cleric dual class he is infinitely more versatile than Edwin. With his 16 dexterity he is also a candidate for a Necro/Thief dual class (with the dex tome) but I find with his stats such a thing would be rather weak compared to Necro/Cleric.
If you want the more powerful MAGE go with Edwin if you want the more powerful CHARACTER go with Xzar.
That's not exactly true. You're choosing between an Arcane Caster with nearly maxed level who can also become a max level cleric (7/8) or if you want a 9th level Arcane Caster which is also possible in this game.
Druid/Thief/Bard all can reach level 10 Wizard/Sorc are level 9 Everyone else can only reach level 8
Hmm, that's interesting. I didn't realize that by mid levels the mage was easier to level than the cleric... this seems strange to say the least. Well, I still feel that Xzar with two spell lists is more effective than Edwin even if he has access to 5th level arcane spells.
Out of the stupid paired companions in Baldur's Gate, Xzar and Montaran are by far the best. Dynaheir just sucks so even if you love Minsc and Boo, it just doesn't work. Khalid and Jaheira are just lame and now that you can get Dorn, who needs those two? Viconia is a decent healer. Montaran kind of sucks and doesn't have as much personality as Xzar, but it's worth it just to have Xzar in the party. Edwin's whining pissed me off enough that I gave him the boot. I'd get Xzar back but I'm actually doing well enough with Dorn, Kagain, Viconia, Neera, and Imoen that I'm going to stick it out for a while.
Fuck spells per level and shit! It's a role-playing game. Xzar is gold.
Apparently its in those middle levels that it happens since clerics end up passing mages (and druids again) around level 14. IIRC Clerics can get higher than mages in BG2 and ToB
Not sure if this was allready said but: 1. The beard 2. The eyes 3. The voice 4. If I look at earlier post from you I suppose you are a straight male, so you won't give a f*ck about 1, 2 and 3. 5. Lots and lots and lots of spells.
But he also has one huge disadvantige, he can't learn the Indentification spell.
Edwin is your go-to guy if you simply want someone who blows the shit out of everything.
Xzar has far better stats, plus (with a tome) can dual-class to Thief or Cleric for a Necromancer 6/Cleric 8 or Necromancer 7/Thief 8. VERY handy.
So it really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Personally, in an evil party I like to take both and end up dual-classing Xzar. They are both fantastic characters.
Better? I think you mean "worse."
Wisdom doesn't help a mage in BG1 at all, so Xzar's 16 Wis is useless, unless you want to dual-class him... and why on earth would you want to dual-class away from the best class in the game, not to mention stealing from him his 5th level spells by not letting him reach 9th? About the only good thing it does is provide him a decent Lore score. (Also... Necromancer *6*? Why would you skip 4th level spells? If you MUST dual-class him, go Necromancer 8/Cleric 7 -- 90,000 XP for Necromancer 8, and 55000 for Cleric 7, which gives him dual 4ths.)
Dual-classing is very good, but you should head from weaker classes towards stronger classes, letting the weaker class support the stronger. Imoen is an excellent Mage/Thief, for instance.
+2 hit points/level beats -2 AC every day of the week, though the ranged attack bonus is pretty nice for a Mage, giving them something to when not casting spells. But it isn't really significant--it is only +1. Besides that, if you're honestly thinking of making him a Thief, I don't know what to tell you. Thief is the single-most common NPC class in BG, and there's plenty who are much better than Xzar could ever be.
The only real advantages Xzar has over Edwin is the ranged +1 attack bonus, and his 14 Str, which makes him a better pack mule than Edwin.
Then there's Edwin's Amulet of Cheese...
Edwin's by far the better mage, which means that objectively speaking he's the "better" (as in, more powerful) character.
By the way, with the ability to actually cast Illusion spells, Edwin is also the more versatile character. Mirror Image means Edwin can actually, y'know, avoid getting hit. Invisibility, Improved Invisibility, Glitterdust, and probably more I'm not thinking of at the moment. In exchange, Edwin is giving up... Identify and Clairvoyance, neither of whom is very useful in combat. The only worthwhile and unique Divination spell is True Sight, which doesn't come into play during BG1 (it's a 6th level mage spell).
I personally find Xzar far more annoying than Edwin, and Montaron is a vicious little bastard with no redeeming qualities--speaking purely of their personalities, not their capabilities.
Why would ANYONE dual class out of an arcane caster?
Well, the biggest reason is if you're not going to be gaining any more levels in the arcane class due to the level cap. If you get Xzar to level 7 Necromancer and give him a Tome of Wisdom you can dual class him to be a Necromancer 7/Cleric 8.
... no. You cannot. Necromancer 7 requires 60,000 XP, whereas Cleric 8 requires 110,000. He will only reach Necromancer 7/Cleric 7, hitting the level cap 9,000 XP short of Cleric 8.
Better to stay as Necromancer till level 8 then dual-class to Cleric for a total of Necromancer 8/Cleric 7, with dual 4ths (as I noted above).
But really, why would you give up spells like Summon Monster III? Cone of Cold? Breach?
He will have the highest wizard AND cleric spells in the game. As a Necro/Cleric dual class he is infinitely more versatile than Edwin. With his 16 dexterity he is also a candidate for a Necro/Thief dual class (with the dex tome) but I find with his stats such a thing would be rather weak compared to Necro/Cleric.
Uh, no. Highest mage spells are 5th level, not 4th. A 9th level Necromancer (135,000 XP) can learn Cloudkill, for example, or Cone of Cold.
Why would you skip 4th level spells? If you MUST dual-class him, go Necromancer 8/Cleric 7 -- 90,000 XP for Necromancer 8, and 55000 for Cleric 7, which gives him dual 4ths.)
Actually that would give him level 4 divine spells and no mage spells at all.. I think you meant Necromancer 7/Cleric 8? In order to reactivate the necromancer abilities he'd have to get to Cleric level 9 if he dualed at level 8.
I must agree that Edwin is by far a better mage... but a dual-classed cleric/mage Xzar makes an excellent support character.
Why would you skip 4th level spells? If you MUST dual-class him, go Necromancer 8/Cleric 7 -- 90,000 XP for Necromancer 8, and 55000 for Cleric 7, which gives him dual 4ths.)
Actually that would give him level 4 divine spells and no mage spells at all.. I think you meant Necromancer 7/Cleric 8? In order to reactivate the necromancer abilities he'd have to get to Cleric level 9 if he dualed at level 8.
I must agree that Edwin is by far a better mage... but a dual-classed cleric/mage Xzar makes an excellent support character.
D'oh! Right, I can't believe I forgot something so fundamental to dual-classing. I'll be over here, face-palming at my own stupidity. (Can you tell I've played more 3rd Edition than I ever did 2nd? Heh.)
Necromancer 7/Cleric 8 isn't possible within the XP cap, so it's Necromancer 6/Cleric 8 or no dual-classing at all.
But he also has one huge disadvantige, he can't learn the Indentification spell.
It's really not such a bad thing. You usually know what the items are and unless you're a Wild Mage who hits too many 'Lose All Gold' Surges, then you'll have plenty of cash, plus you should always have a second Arcane caster anyway, so either a Bard who will know, or another mage who can waste his slots on it.
As for Glitterdust, it's conjuration, not illusion or divination... probably because you're summoning dust particles
Why would you skip 4th level spells? If you MUST dual-class him, go Necromancer 8/Cleric 7 -- 90,000 XP for Necromancer 8, and 55000 for Cleric 7, which gives him dual 4ths.)
Actually that would give him level 4 divine spells and no mage spells at all.. I think you meant Necromancer 7/Cleric 8? In order to reactivate the necromancer abilities he'd have to get to Cleric level 9 if he dualed at level 8.
I must agree that Edwin is by far a better mage... but a dual-classed cleric/mage Xzar makes an excellent support character.
D'oh! Right, I can't believe I forgot something so fundamental to dual-classing. I'll be over here, face-palming at my own stupidity. (Can you tell I've played more 3rd Edition than I ever did 2nd? Heh.)
Necromancer 7/Cleric 8 isn't possible within the XP cap, so it's Necromancer 6/Cleric 8 or no dual-classing at all.
You are correct. Though level 7 necro, level 8 thief is at least still possible (as well as like you said Necro 6/cleric 8).
Xzar and Montaron both suffer from the same problem: they are well rounded and good, but overshadowed by other npcs.
Edwin Can simply cast more spells than Xzar, and the only real adventures Xzar has are better ranged thaco and better saves. But if you want a mage with a better ranged thaco then Imoen is better than Xzar anyway. Xzar could be used as a cleric with fireballs, but normally Imoen or Edwin will be a better choice for a mage. A PC mage will also be better, as a PC mage can actually get bow specialisation.
Montaron is good, but Shar'teel is superior in the same role. She has more strength for backstabs and she can specialise in a better ranged weapon.
Pfff Xzar should have been in BG2 instead of Edwin, they should have bumped up his dexterity and wisdom each by one point and kept him a Necromancer, giving the PC the option of dualling him into a Cleric of Thief. That would have been amaze.
Montaron is good, but Shar'teel is superior in the same role. She has more strength for backstabs and she can specialise in a better ranged weapon.
Shar-teel has a Con of 9, compared to Monty who has a Con equal to Minsc. Likewise, Shar cannot advance as a Fighter if dualed. Outclassed here he is not. Nor is he outclassed by Coran. Coran suffers from poorly distributed thief skills and a lower strength for a warrior.
Pfff Xzar should have been in BG2 instead of Edwin, they should have bumped up his dexterity and wisdom each by one point and kept him a Necromancer, giving the PC the option of dualling him into a Cleric of Thief. That would have been amaze.
Yes because I'd LOVE to lose out on spells like Horrid Wilting, Sequencers/Contingencies and Death so I can be a THIEF or Priest...
@Dazzu Agreed. There are already too many multi/dual mages in BG2. It would have made no sense to throw out the only pure mage we had in favor of a lesser pure mage that happened to be optimal for dual classing.
I always just kill off, then remove from party the npc from the pairs I dont like. Khalid has been dead since the beginning. Jaheira is too good to get rid of at this point. Her healing spells are better than Viconia's for most of the game.
Dual classing to a necro/cleric in a game with such a small level cap and still getting 3rd/4th level spell casting is a soild idea. I'm not sure why you think gaining two more level of casting (Arcane 4th/5th) is SOOO much better than gaining 4 new levels of spells.
Here's a short list of the great spells you gain with 4th level cleric spells: Doom, Remove Fear (as a 1st level spell), Chant, Silence 15' Radius, Animate Dead (In EE this spell summons Ghasts instead of crappy little skeletons), Protection From Fire, Holy Smite/Unholy Blight, Defensive Harmony, Free Action, Holy Power. This list is really just spells that are good For Xzar specifically, there are many more great cleric spells from 1-4.
Compared to the few from 4th/5th level Arcane I feel this is far more of a bonus. 9th level wizards get Animate Dead too only TWO whole spell levels later than a cleric does. Getting Silence alone makes dual classing amazing, I don't know how many caster encounters have turned into easy mode from that 1 2nd level cleric spell.
If you MUST dual class him you should do so in a way that wont rob you of all arcane spell casting. I'd suggest not taking Necromancer 8/Cleric 7... you might not like it in the long run.
Arcane casters aren't the end all be all of powerful characters in BG1. To say that not letting Xzar reach level 9 makes him FAR worse simply because he loses out on 2 levels of arcane spells is ludacris. As is saying that being able to cast one school of arcane spells (illusion) makes someone more versatile than 4 levels of spellcasting from another class... that would mean that Neera who can cast all schools of arcane magic in the game is far more versatile and therefore the more POWERFUL character when compared to Edwin who loses out on a school of magic. Are you high?
And yes I did get my XP calculations incorrect but at least I can say I have a grasp on the basics of how dual classing works.
Thank you @GoodSteve for taking the words out of my mouth.
Also, why dual-class him to Thief? I dunno, maybe because Necromancer 7/Thief 8 is awesome? Only Imoen and Safana can do anything comparable to that, both being epic with their Thief 6/Mage 9 shenanigans.
You do realize there IS a difference between having *two* characters (a Necromancer 9 and Thief 10) and *one* character (a Necromancer 7/Thief 8) yes?
By skipping level 5 spells, you miss out on Breach, which will no doubt be important for hardmode challenge mods. Besides which, if you don't have another priest, then you have a big problem.
I wouldn't say that him losing spells is what's bad, it's more for how long. It'll be a while before you might be able to get them back. On top of that, you have to use a tome on a character you can't transfer over to the sequel.
@Dazzu Well if waiting to "reactivate" his arcane spellcasting is a problem bring another arcane caster. I mean besides, if you don't have another mage, then you have a big problem.
Yes Breach MIGHT be good for a hardcore challenge mod that doesn't exist yet... who's to say? But I mean you can also get your other mage to take it IF this situation arises... but to say that one character is worse because he's not viable in a situation that not all players will run into (downloading and playing a hardmode challenge mod, that from what I understand doesn't even exist yet) doesn't really hold water.
They decided Edwin wasn't good enough in BG1 so they buffed him in BG2 so his amulet gives +2 spell slots there: BG1: Edwins amulet gives +1 spell slots on every level BG2: Edwins amulet gives +2 spell slots on every level
I have my fingers crossed that they give Neera a major buff for BG2 otherwise she is utterly worthless compared to the demigod that is Edwin.
She will already be getting a lot better, buff or no buff. Wild Mages become ridiculously powerful at higher levels. She's a bit like Rasaad in BG1, in that both of them are at their most useless at early levels, but will be among the strongest NPCs by the time you get to ToB content.
Why would ANYONE dual class out of an arcane caster?
In BG1 it might make sense for an NPC since the caster would just hit the xp limit. At least he'd get spells and some other stuff. It's not like his power is going to keep going much better if you don't dual
Comments
Solid performer. Give him +2 in single wep style and he rocks.
Xzar has a nice bonus to lore BTW.
"Checkmate! The witch is dead!"
If you want the more powerful MAGE go with Edwin if you want the more powerful CHARACTER go with Xzar.
That's not exactly true. You're choosing between an Arcane Caster with nearly maxed level who can also become a max level cleric (7/8) or if you want a 9th level Arcane Caster which is also possible in this game.
Druid/Thief/Bard all can reach level 10
Wizard/Sorc are level 9
Everyone else can only reach level 8
Fuck spells per level and shit! It's a role-playing game. Xzar is gold.
Apparently its in those middle levels that it happens since clerics end up passing mages (and druids again) around level 14. IIRC Clerics can get higher than mages in BG2 and ToB
1. The beard
2. The eyes
3. The voice
4. If I look at earlier post from you I suppose you are a straight male, so you won't give a f*ck about 1, 2 and 3.
5. Lots and lots and lots of spells.
But he also has one huge disadvantige, he can't learn the Indentification spell.
Wisdom doesn't help a mage in BG1 at all, so Xzar's 16 Wis is useless, unless you want to dual-class him... and why on earth would you want to dual-class away from the best class in the game, not to mention stealing from him his 5th level spells by not letting him reach 9th? About the only good thing it does is provide him a decent Lore score. (Also... Necromancer *6*? Why would you skip 4th level spells? If you MUST dual-class him, go Necromancer 8/Cleric 7 -- 90,000 XP for Necromancer 8, and 55000 for Cleric 7, which gives him dual 4ths.)
Dual-classing is very good, but you should head from weaker classes towards stronger classes, letting the weaker class support the stronger. Imoen is an excellent Mage/Thief, for instance.
+2 hit points/level beats -2 AC every day of the week, though the ranged attack bonus is pretty nice for a Mage, giving them something to when not casting spells. But it isn't really significant--it is only +1. Besides that, if you're honestly thinking of making him a Thief, I don't know what to tell you. Thief is the single-most common NPC class in BG, and there's plenty who are much better than Xzar could ever be.
The only real advantages Xzar has over Edwin is the ranged +1 attack bonus, and his 14 Str, which makes him a better pack mule than Edwin.
Then there's Edwin's Amulet of Cheese...
Edwin's by far the better mage, which means that objectively speaking he's the "better" (as in, more powerful) character.
By the way, with the ability to actually cast Illusion spells, Edwin is also the more versatile character. Mirror Image means Edwin can actually, y'know, avoid getting hit. Invisibility, Improved Invisibility, Glitterdust, and probably more I'm not thinking of at the moment. In exchange, Edwin is giving up... Identify and Clairvoyance, neither of whom is very useful in combat. The only worthwhile and unique Divination spell is True Sight, which doesn't come into play during BG1 (it's a 6th level mage spell).
I personally find Xzar far more annoying than Edwin, and Montaron is a vicious little bastard with no redeeming qualities--speaking purely of their personalities, not their capabilities. ... no. You cannot. Necromancer 7 requires 60,000 XP, whereas Cleric 8 requires 110,000. He will only reach Necromancer 7/Cleric 7, hitting the level cap 9,000 XP short of Cleric 8.
Better to stay as Necromancer till level 8 then dual-class to Cleric for a total of Necromancer 8/Cleric 7, with dual 4ths (as I noted above).
But really, why would you give up spells like Summon Monster III? Cone of Cold? Breach? Uh, no. Highest mage spells are 5th level, not 4th. A 9th level Necromancer (135,000 XP) can learn Cloudkill, for example, or Cone of Cold. I could not disagree more.
I must agree that Edwin is by far a better mage... but a dual-classed cleric/mage Xzar makes an excellent support character.
Necromancer 7/Cleric 8 isn't possible within the XP cap, so it's Necromancer 6/Cleric 8 or no dual-classing at all.
As for Glitterdust, it's conjuration, not illusion or divination... probably because you're summoning dust particles
Edwin Can simply cast more spells than Xzar, and the only real adventures Xzar has are better ranged thaco and better saves. But if you want a mage with a better ranged thaco then Imoen is better than Xzar anyway. Xzar could be used as a cleric with fireballs, but normally Imoen or Edwin will be a better choice for a mage. A PC mage will also be better, as a PC mage can actually get bow specialisation.
Montaron is good, but Shar'teel is superior in the same role. She has more strength for backstabs and she can specialise in a better ranged weapon.
Agreed. There are already too many multi/dual mages in BG2. It would have made no sense to throw out the only pure mage we had in favor of a lesser pure mage that happened to be optimal for dual classing.
Dual classing to a necro/cleric in a game with such a small level cap and still getting 3rd/4th level spell casting is a soild idea. I'm not sure why you think gaining two more level of casting (Arcane 4th/5th) is SOOO much better than gaining 4 new levels of spells.
Here's a short list of the great spells you gain with 4th level cleric spells: Doom, Remove Fear (as a 1st level spell), Chant, Silence 15' Radius, Animate Dead (In EE this spell summons Ghasts instead of crappy little skeletons), Protection From Fire, Holy Smite/Unholy Blight, Defensive Harmony, Free Action, Holy Power. This list is really just spells that are good For Xzar specifically, there are many more great cleric spells from 1-4.
Compared to the few from 4th/5th level Arcane I feel this is far more of a bonus. 9th level wizards get Animate Dead too only TWO whole spell levels later than a cleric does. Getting Silence alone makes dual classing amazing, I don't know how many caster encounters have turned into easy mode from that 1 2nd level cleric spell.
If you MUST dual class him you should do so in a way that wont rob you of all arcane spell casting. I'd suggest not taking Necromancer 8/Cleric 7... you might not like it in the long run.
Arcane casters aren't the end all be all of powerful characters in BG1. To say that not letting Xzar reach level 9 makes him FAR worse simply because he loses out on 2 levels of arcane spells is ludacris. As is saying that being able to cast one school of arcane spells (illusion) makes someone more versatile than 4 levels of spellcasting from another class... that would mean that Neera who can cast all schools of arcane magic in the game is far more versatile and therefore the more POWERFUL character when compared to Edwin who loses out on a school of magic. Are you high?
And yes I did get my XP calculations incorrect but at least I can say I have a grasp on the basics of how dual classing works.
Also, why dual-class him to Thief? I dunno, maybe because Necromancer 7/Thief 8 is awesome? Only Imoen and Safana can do anything comparable to that, both being epic with their Thief 6/Mage 9 shenanigans.
You do realize there IS a difference between having *two* characters (a Necromancer 9 and Thief 10) and *one* character (a Necromancer 7/Thief 8) yes?
I wouldn't say that him losing spells is what's bad, it's more for how long. It'll be a while before you might be able to get them back. On top of that, you have to use a tome on a character you can't transfer over to the sequel.
Well if waiting to "reactivate" his arcane spellcasting is a problem bring another arcane caster. I mean besides, if you don't have another mage, then you have a big problem.
Yes Breach MIGHT be good for a hardcore challenge mod that doesn't exist yet... who's to say? But I mean you can also get your other mage to take it IF this situation arises... but to say that one character is worse because he's not viable in a situation that not all players will run into (downloading and playing a hardmode challenge mod, that from what I understand doesn't even exist yet) doesn't really hold water.