Explain how extra levels or better gear helps a level 6 solo cleric.
At level 6 he only has access to Level 3 spells. If he tried the island at, let's say level 9, he would have Level 5 spells.
Cast "Slay Living" until you succeed. Bye-bye Karoug.
God you are smart.
So level 9 - i.e., after I have passed 225,000 experience.
In a game with a cap of 161,000 experience.
Gotcha.
Only idiots play with XP cap. Try using BGTweak mod and remove that crap,specially if you are gonna solo. You would be hitting level cap pretty soon and run for the rest of the game without gaiing any xp. Lame...
If you are unable to clear it, then gain a couple more levels/better gear before going there.
Fine. Get those 5 clerics to level 7 (Level 4 Spells). Have all of them cast Poison on Karoug. Then have all of them cast Cause Serious Wounds (17 damage x 5 = 85 HP damage)
Gotta time those CSW, but it is doable, and he will die.
Poison does almost nothing to Karoug given that he regenerates 5hp/sec and has great saving throws. If you managed to hit him with 5 of them (the odds of him failing 5 savings throws against Poison in the same round is roughly 1 in 1024), you would be doing 10 damage/round which gets you only a tiny bit of help beyond round one (the probability of taking him out in round 1 is quite small).
The Cause Serious Wounds idea is the best one you have - which requires you to hit him with 5 clerics and don't have the spell interrupted despite taking a full round to get it off. Given that it takes 7/10 of a round to cast, getting it off without a disruption is probably even harder than getting everyone to hit before he regenerates.
Again, this isn't much of an answer for a lot of people but at least it is a viable one for someone in a position to go with a 5 on 1 fight with lots of reloads.
Of course, in looking to level up you run into the one-way ticket issue again given that there is a discrete amount of experience available on the island and you can't leave to level up somewhere else like you can with any other encounter in BG1, TOSC, BG2, or TOB (it will take the party between 10 and 550,000 to level everyone up from 6th level cleric to 7th level cleric). This one-way-ticket aspect remains the concern about design.
I didnt say it would be easy, but it is certainly doable. Yes it will take a lot of reloads.
You can cast the spells before engaging Karoug. It gives you a timer and you have to hit a target within that timer, otherwise spell is wasted. If you have holy Power on your clerics (Spell Level 4, should be available to all if you get them to level 7) then use it before the fight: it turns your clerics into fighters. You shouldnt miss the attack this way.
If you have a way to stun Karoug, use it. Ghasts used to help but i think they changed Animate Dead and now you only get a skeleton. However you should have at least one wand of paralization by now.
there is a discrete amount of experience available on the island
Incorrect, resting will still produce an infinite number of Wolfweres to fight. You could theoretically level from level 1 to cap purely from random resting encounters on Balduran's Island.
I don't see how a party full of clerics is relevant. Playing with six clerics means you're either new/bad at the game, or are intentionally handicapping yourself. You know, just like soloing.
Regarding the swashbuckler6->mage9, that could totally beat the GWW. Traps should do the trick, either legitimately or through some mild cheese. If you haven't been putting points in traps, then 1) Shame on you for not planning ahead for the GWW, and 2) Load up on potions of perception.
Soloing involves foreknowledge of how the game works. You had to know you were going to go up against a GWW. A swashbuckler should be able to equip some Gauntlets of Ogre Power and swing away with the flaming sword and silver dagger for serious damage, and the mage spells would provide haste and extra burst through various offensive magics.
If you don't have the appropriate equipment, proficiencies, thief skills, or potions, then yes, you are stuck. But that's a staggering list of tools that you neglected to acquire before going up against a legendarily difficult boss in an area that you can't leave.
I don't see how a party full of clerics is relevant. Playing with six clerics means you're either new/bad at the game, or are intentionally handicapping yourself. You know, just like soloing.
Well... for RP reasons I once created a party of 4 Priests of Lathander. They won BG1 without a single reload (went neither to the island, nor to Durlag's Tower), and they were a formidable force in SoA as well. Very impressive group that was.
I am fine the way Karoug works, it has always been an epic battle and should stay so. We are just finding a way to kill him using the clerical-class restrictions, solo or not. It ain't that easy.
Ghasts used to help but i think they changed Animate Dead and now you only get a skeleton. However you should have at least one wand of paralization by now.
Other way around. In BG1 and BG2, it summoned skeletons. For BG:EE, it summons ghasts. The ghasts can't hit or stun the werewolves (any kind not just the GWW) but are still useful meat shields.
Your way is a viable solution that requires lots of reloads and a near full party. Definitely better than nothing, but not much to address the concerns of a lot of players.
If you are there with 3 members, for example, those 3 cause serious wounds spells following a barrage of poison spells per round nets you exactly nothing since he regenerates it all by the time you can get the next spell off and manage to hit him.
If you have a mage in the group, the wand of paralyzation is great for buying you ten rounds and should be used, no question. It works against just about every character in the game. (Drizzt is one of the few that comes to mind where your chances of it holding him is less than 1%).
The end of the day problem for people is that the island is a one-way ticket and is uniquely impossible without cheesy exploits for a significant number of less than full party combinations, including the solo variety. It is hardly worthy of outright insulting people who feel that this is a design issue and that the design for every other encounter in BG1, TOSC, BG2 and TOB is superior given the ability of people to run away, regroup, and tackle it again later with different characters, etc. or to simply choose to walk away from it. Unlike a battle against Kangaxx, for example, you can't walk away from the GWW. You either figure out how to beat him or start a new game which is fundamentally different from the rest of the series. (For solo characters, GWW >>>>>>> Kangaxx for difficulty but you can walk away in any event).
I wouldn't call you an idiot for having your opinion. Reasonable minds do differ on this.
@AHF: last BG:EE patch has changed Animate Dead. You don't get ghasts anymore, but (1 or 2) skeleton warriors which scale-up in strength and abilities along with the priest's level. More balanced I guess, last version of the skeleton is strong (immune to normal weapons...). Will not help fight Karoug though.
With a party of 5 8th level clerics, you are looking at:
8d4 x 5 with a 75% chance of saving. That averages to 20 damage on a failed save and 10 damage on a made save which would be 62.5 damage in an average round.
Once you get down to 3 characters is becomes much more unlikely and for 1 or 2 characters it is worthless given the rate of regeneration.
For me, the fight remains unique among BG1, BG2, TOSC and TOB for being something you can't walk away from once you have reached it and for being something that is very class specific in terms of being game breaking absent cheesy exploits for small party or solo games with certain party combinations.
I guess you could call that the single most 'epic' fight in the entire series but only for a limited number of parties and combinations.
@AHF: last BG:EE patch has changed Animate Dead. You don't get ghasts anymore, but (1 or 2) skeleton warriors which scale-up in strength and abilities along with the priest's level. More balanced I guess, last version of the skeleton is strong (immune to normal weapons...). Will not help fight Karoug though.
Good to know. I haven't rebooted it since yesterday. I guess as of this morning it is consistent skeletons across all updated version...which I think is definitely the right call.
I am starting to wonder if there will be iPad/PC functional multiplayer in 2012, though.
Soloing involves foreknowledge of how the game works. You had to know you were going to go up against a GWW.
Soloing without knowing what's ahead of you, and then complaining on the forums because you got stuck, is stupid and typical WoWtard behaviour. If you haven't finished the game before, and don't know all the encounters in the game, then you should definitely form a balanced 6-man party.
Succesfull soloers have something in common: They have all finished the game several times with different party combinations, and know pretty much all the encounters in the game. And even then, they use cheese every once in a while.
@AHF: I do agree that being stuck on the island makes this fight different from the other tough encounters. But then if you are at the point of soloing / creating a cleric-only party, it means you know the game well enough to decide you should not go to that island in the first place. After all, there is nothing that forces you to set sail, not even in RP terms, and the ratio loot vs risk is not exactly the best in the series...
I have not managed yet to have a test lvl.8 solo cleric go to the island and try out for hours all the potential combos. Will do at some point. Only a very large number of glyph of warding might work from all I have seen... if several hundreds are needed, that won't be fun at all. Ideally I would like to try everything - wands of the heavens, poison spell, holy smite...
Also on poison, 2 damage/round yes, but don't forget the initial 2d8 damage as well...
Soloing involves foreknowledge of how the game works. You had to know you were going to go up against a GWW.
Soloing without knowing what's ahead of you, and then complaining on the forums because you got stuck, is stupid and typical WoWtard behaviour. If you haven't finished the game before, and don't know all the encounters in the game, then you should definitely form a balanced 6-man party.
Succesfull soloers have something in common: They have all finished the game several times with different party combinations, and know pretty much all the encounters in the game. And even then, they use cheese every once in a while.
It isn't that it can't be done. It is that it uniquely can't be done without cheesy exploit.
Mass glyph of warding or skull trap = victory for your small party or solo mages or clerics or multi-combinations.
It iniquely can't be walked away from for such a significant path in the game. (i.e., 1 of 2 paths in TOSC).
I don't condemn anyone who thinks that is 100% the very best choice by the developers. I likewise think it is valid for people to object to that. Reasonable minds differ.
Can the encounter be won if you are in a balanced group? Yes. Therefore, the encounter is balanced. Hard? For some people, yes. Impossible/broken? Nope.
Can the encounter be soloed? Yes. Will be really hard on some classes though. Some might even require cheese.
You thought you could be victorious against anything the game threw at you. You went solo to the island. You got your ass handed to yourself. What to do? Restart the game (oh no!!!! a couple hours of video-gaming lost, the humanity!!!). Get better prepared next time you go to that island.
Soloing involves foreknowledge of how the game works. You had to know you were going to go up against a GWW.
Soloing without knowing what's ahead of you, and then complaining on the forums because you got stuck, is stupid and typical WoWtard behaviour. If you haven't finished the game before, and don't know all the encounters in the game, then you should definitely form a balanced 6-man party.
Succesfull soloers have something in common: They have all finished the game several times with different party combinations, and know pretty much all the encounters in the game. And even then, they use cheese every once in a while.
It isn't that it can't be done. It is that it uniquely can't be done without cheesy exploit.
Mass glyph of warding or skull trap = victory for your small party or solo mages or clerics or multi-combinations.
It iniquely can't be walked away from for such a significant path in the game. (i.e., 1 of 2 paths in TOSC).
I don't condemn anyone who thinks that is 100% the very best choice by the developers. I likewise think it is valid for people to object to that. Reasonable minds differ.
Do you mean to tell me that soloists don't cheese the game? Any solo character relies on some level of cheese to accommodate for the fact that they're five party members short.
Do you mean to tell me that a solo character isn't going to in some way abuse game mechanics to beat Sarevok? Or Aec'Letec? Or the Durlag tower Demon Knight? If there's a way for a solo character to beat any of those fights without somehow abusing the game system, I'd like to hear it.
(You realize that this could be handled with zero nerf but giving the PC an alternative, right? Like every other quest in BG1, BG2, TOSC, and TOB which can be handled without cheese solo, completed in multiple ways and/or avoided without any disruption to any major plot path?)
(You realize that this could be handled with zero nerf but giving the PC an alternative, right? Like every other quest in BG1, BG2, TOSC, and TOB which can be handled without cheese solo, completed in multiple ways and/or avoided without any disruption to any major plot path?)
Lies, solo players use cheese in a LOT of fights.
And the only irony here is you complaining about cheese when all you do is whine.
(You realize that this could be handled with zero nerf but giving the PC an alternative, right? Like every other quest in BG1, BG2, TOSC, and TOB which can be handled without cheese solo, completed in multiple ways and/or avoided without any disruption to any major plot path?)
Lies, solo players use cheese in a LOT of fights.
And the only irony here is you complaining about cheese when all you do is whine.
You never stop with the insults do you?
Why bother discussing things if you aren't going to have a basic degree of courtesy and respect for other posters?
* * * * *
(For the sake of addressing the above red herring, I never opined one way or the other about whether people use huge exploits/cheese on solo runs. I have been discussing what can and cannot be done with or without huge exploits. In fact, I agree that many solo players do use cheese and a lot of it -- especially on a no reload challenge where the player cannot put the Charname at real risk even with high odds, such as allowing the PC to be subject to a game ending charm spell from the sirens where even with a 1 save versus spells that means the game ends 1/20 times every time you are hit with that spell. I will also tell you that many players use cheese with full balanced parties as well. Neither of those facts deal with game design.)
If the argument is I think all encounters should be able for me to solo without cheese on the occasional fight that is completely tailored to a different class / skill set and/or a mixture of skill sets expecting a somewhat balanced party...
... then this has devolved past rational and logical thought.
Edit:
Even from an RP perspective. A smart cleric might be aware that they need a cold iron weapon. They would at that point be aware that their gods don't allow them to use an edged weapon that would be silver/cold iorn and could handle this.
At that point they realize they are trapped on an island, and that they can't defeat the obstacle in the way preventing them from leaving this island without betraying their order (using edged weapons)... so they might plan for several days, and come up with a trap...
Comments
So level 9 - i.e., after I have passed 225,000 experience.
In a game with a cap of 161,000 experience.
Gotcha. No mistakes here, no sir. I am the one with the lack of understanding.
Stop talking down to others when your advice ends up being "mod the game so it is easier."
Next I expect you'll be telling me to summon a Deva.
Gotta time those CSW, but it is doable, and he will die.
Anything else you need help with, baddie?
The Cause Serious Wounds idea is the best one you have - which requires you to hit him with 5 clerics and don't have the spell interrupted despite taking a full round to get it off. Given that it takes 7/10 of a round to cast, getting it off without a disruption is probably even harder than getting everyone to hit before he regenerates.
Again, this isn't much of an answer for a lot of people but at least it is a viable one for someone in a position to go with a 5 on 1 fight with lots of reloads.
Of course, in looking to level up you run into the one-way ticket issue again given that there is a discrete amount of experience available on the island and you can't leave to level up somewhere else like you can with any other encounter in BG1, TOSC, BG2, or TOB (it will take the party between 10 and 550,000 to level everyone up from 6th level cleric to 7th level cleric). This one-way-ticket aspect remains the concern about design.
You can cast the spells before engaging Karoug. It gives you a timer and you have to hit a target within that timer, otherwise spell is wasted. If you have holy Power on your clerics (Spell Level 4, should be available to all if you get them to level 7) then use it before the fight: it turns your clerics into fighters. You shouldnt miss the attack this way.
If you have a way to stun Karoug, use it. Ghasts used to help but i think they changed Animate Dead and now you only get a skeleton. However you should have at least one wand of paralization by now.
Regarding the swashbuckler6->mage9, that could totally beat the GWW. Traps should do the trick, either legitimately or through some mild cheese. If you haven't been putting points in traps, then 1) Shame on you for not planning ahead for the GWW, and 2) Load up on potions of perception.
Soloing involves foreknowledge of how the game works. You had to know you were going to go up against a GWW. A swashbuckler should be able to equip some Gauntlets of Ogre Power and swing away with the flaming sword and silver dagger for serious damage, and the mage spells would provide haste and extra burst through various offensive magics.
If you don't have the appropriate equipment, proficiencies, thief skills, or potions, then yes, you are stuck. But that's a staggering list of tools that you neglected to acquire before going up against a legendarily difficult boss in an area that you can't leave.
I am fine the way Karoug works, it has always been an epic battle and should stay so. We are just finding a way to kill him using the clerical-class restrictions, solo or not. It ain't that easy.
@AHF: would concurrent Holy Smites kill him?
Other way around. In BG1 and BG2, it summoned skeletons. For BG:EE, it summons ghasts. The ghasts can't hit or stun the werewolves (any kind not just the GWW) but are still useful meat shields.
Your way is a viable solution that requires lots of reloads and a near full party. Definitely better than nothing, but not much to address the concerns of a lot of players.
If you are there with 3 members, for example, those 3 cause serious wounds spells following a barrage of poison spells per round nets you exactly nothing since he regenerates it all by the time you can get the next spell off and manage to hit him.
If you have a mage in the group, the wand of paralyzation is great for buying you ten rounds and should be used, no question. It works against just about every character in the game. (Drizzt is one of the few that comes to mind where your chances of it holding him is less than 1%).
The end of the day problem for people is that the island is a one-way ticket and is uniquely impossible without cheesy exploits for a significant number of less than full party combinations, including the solo variety. It is hardly worthy of outright insulting people who feel that this is a design issue and that the design for every other encounter in BG1, TOSC, BG2 and TOB is superior given the ability of people to run away, regroup, and tackle it again later with different characters, etc. or to simply choose to walk away from it. Unlike a battle against Kangaxx, for example, you can't walk away from the GWW. You either figure out how to beat him or start a new game which is fundamentally different from the rest of the series. (For solo characters, GWW >>>>>>> Kangaxx for difficulty but you can walk away in any event).
I wouldn't call you an idiot for having your opinion. Reasonable minds do differ on this.
With a party of 5 8th level clerics, you are looking at:
8d4 x 5 with a 75% chance of saving. That averages to 20 damage on a failed save and 10 damage on a made save which would be 62.5 damage in an average round.
Once you get down to 3 characters is becomes much more unlikely and for 1 or 2 characters it is worthless given the rate of regeneration.
For me, the fight remains unique among BG1, BG2, TOSC and TOB for being something you can't walk away from once you have reached it and for being something that is very class specific in terms of being game breaking absent cheesy exploits for small party or solo games with certain party combinations.
I guess you could call that the single most 'epic' fight in the entire series but only for a limited number of parties and combinations.
I am starting to wonder if there will be iPad/PC functional multiplayer in 2012, though.
Succesfull soloers have something in common: They have all finished the game several times with different party combinations, and know pretty much all the encounters in the game. And even then, they use cheese every once in a while.
So my R/C doesn't have an army of ghasts anymore?
I have not managed yet to have a test lvl.8 solo cleric go to the island and try out for hours all the potential combos. Will do at some point. Only a very large number of glyph of warding might work from all I have seen... if several hundreds are needed, that won't be fun at all. Ideally I would like to try everything - wands of the heavens, poison spell, holy smite...
Also on poison, 2 damage/round yes, but don't forget the initial 2d8 damage as well...
BUG REPORTINGZ DIS NOW!!!eleven!111!
Mass glyph of warding or skull trap = victory for your small party or solo mages or clerics or multi-combinations.
It iniquely can't be walked away from for such a significant path in the game. (i.e., 1 of 2 paths in TOSC).
I don't condemn anyone who thinks that is 100% the very best choice by the developers. I likewise think it is valid for people to object to that. Reasonable minds differ.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/12538/no-more-ghasts-from-animate-dead/p1
Can the encounter be soloed? Yes. Will be really hard on some classes though. Some might even require cheese.
You thought you could be victorious against anything the game threw at you. You went solo to the island. You got your ass handed to yourself. What to do? Restart the game (oh no!!!! a couple hours of video-gaming lost, the humanity!!!). Get better prepared next time you go to that island.
But asking for a nerf... wow, just wow.
Stubborn minds are stubborn.
Do you mean to tell me that a solo character isn't going to in some way abuse game mechanics to beat Sarevok? Or Aec'Letec? Or the Durlag tower Demon Knight? If there's a way for a solo character to beat any of those fights without somehow abusing the game system, I'd like to hear it.
(You realize that this could be handled with zero nerf but giving the PC an alternative, right? Like every other quest in BG1, BG2, TOSC, and TOB which can be handled without cheese solo, completed in multiple ways and/or avoided without any disruption to any major plot path?)
And the only irony here is you complaining about cheese when all you do is whine.
Why bother discussing things if you aren't going to have a basic degree of courtesy and respect for other posters?
* * * * *
(For the sake of addressing the above red herring, I never opined one way or the other about whether people use huge exploits/cheese on solo runs. I have been discussing what can and cannot be done with or without huge exploits. In fact, I agree that many solo players do use cheese and a lot of it -- especially on a no reload challenge where the player cannot put the Charname at real risk even with high odds, such as allowing the PC to be subject to a game ending charm spell from the sirens where even with a 1 save versus spells that means the game ends 1/20 times every time you are hit with that spell. I will also tell you that many players use cheese with full balanced parties as well. Neither of those facts deal with game design.)
... then this has devolved past rational and logical thought.
Edit:
Even from an RP perspective. A smart cleric might be aware that they need a cold iron weapon. They would at that point be aware that their gods don't allow them to use an edged weapon that would be silver/cold iorn and could handle this.
At that point they realize they are trapped on an island, and that they can't defeat the obstacle in the way preventing them from leaving this island without betraying their order (using edged weapons)... so they might plan for several days, and come up with a trap...
...and now glyph of warding actually makes sense.