(You realize that this could be handled with zero nerf but giving the PC an alternative, right? Like every other quest in BG1, BG2, TOSC, and TOB which can be handled without cheese solo, completed in multiple ways and/or avoided without any disruption to any major plot path?)
Lies, solo players use cheese in a LOT of fights.
And the only irony here is you complaining about cheese when all you do is whine.
You never stop with the insults do you?
Why bother discussing things if you aren't going to have a basic degree of courtesy and respect for other posters?
* * * * *
(For the sake of addressing the above red herring, I never opined one way or the other about whether people use huge exploits/cheese on solo runs. I have been discussing what can and cannot be done with or without huge exploits. In fact, I agree that many solo players do use cheese and a lot of it -- especially on a no reload challenge where the player cannot put the Charname at real risk even with high odds, such as allowing the PC to be subject to a game ending charm spell from the sirens where even with a 1 save versus spells that means the game ends 1/20 times every time you are hit with that spell. I will also tell you that many players use cheese with full balanced parties as well. Neither of those facts deal with game design.)
Calling you a whiney WoWtard is not an insult, it is just the truth.
If the argument is I think all encounters should be able for me to solo without cheese on the occasional fight that is completely tailored to a different class / skill set and/or a mixture of skill sets expecting a somewhat balanced party...
... then this has devolved past rational and logical thought.
My point is that this encounter is uniquely unwinnable for solo and certain small party combinations if the game is played as intended and uniquely game breaking in that said solo or small party cannot walk away from the encounter, recruit different members, get different equipment, resurrect fallen party members, etc. as can be done with every other encounter in BG1, TOSC, BG2, and TOB.
From a design perspective, it is unique in the series and the discussion is over whether there is merit to that uniqueness or whether the same conditions that apply to every other encounter in BG1, TOSC, BG2, and TOB might not be preferrable.
My perspective is that reasonable minds differ on this point, but I think the optionality available to every other fight that is essential to a key path at any point in BG1, TOSC, BG2, and TOB is preferrable.
No, your perspective is that if there is an encounter you can't win you should be allowed to run away with your tail between your legs. Try doing that in PnP (oh hai Mr. Wolfwere, please let me go back to Ulgoth's Beard, i seem to be unable to kill you, aight brah?).
Worst case scenario, you get trapped in the island and are forced to restart (only a couple hours). But obviously some people can't face the fact that they just lost in a video game, and therefore cry for nerfs.
No, your perspective is that if there is an encounter you can't win you should be allowed to run away with your tail between your legs. Try doing that in PnP (oh hai Mr. Wolfwere, please let me go back to Ulgoth's Beard, i seem to be unable to kill you, aight brah?).
Worst case scenario, you get trapped in the island and are forced to restart (only a couple hours). But obviously some people can't face the fact that they just lost in a video game, and therefore cry for nerfs.
Why do you resort to beating down strawmen? Why not honesty discuss an issue?
This has been discussed a million times already, and your only argument remains "i cant solo a fight that is clearly designed for a balanced, higher level group. Therefore the encounter is broken and i demand a nerf NAO".
Some guy just posted a video of him soloing Karoug on insane. He was level 9 though, and had pretty good gear/potions/scrolls. Do you insist that the encounter is broken?
Actually all three of those fights are doable solo without cheesy tricks. I certainly wiped out Sarevok's entire team solo with my Ranger/Cleric and his army of undead. Being immune to magic, hasted, making every saving throw automagically and hitting for 20 odd damage per sling bullet is pretty well godmode when it comes to "difficult" encounters like these.
Of the three, the Demon Knight is probably the worst, and even then it's trivially easy to become undispellably immune to fire - his only ranged option, and just beat him to death with sling bullets. The Air Aspect fight is unquestionably more difficult than all three in my opinion.
Actually all three of those fights are doable solo without cheesy tricks. I certainly wiped out Sarevok's entire team solo with my Ranger/Cleric and his army of undead. Being immune to magic, hasted, making every saving throw automagically and hitting for 20 odd damage per sling bullet is pretty well godmode when it comes to "difficult" encounters like these.
Of the three, the Demon Knight is probably the worst, and even then it's trivially easy to become undispellably immune to fire - his only ranged option, and just beat him to death with sling bullets. The Air Aspect fight is unquestionably more difficult than all three in my opinion.
I agree. All of those fights can be won without exploits with a very high % success rate.
The Air Aspect fight I find pretty easy if you combine webs with a ring of free action. That combined with your sling technique and ranged spells is very effective with a low risk profile.
Web is a good idea, but not available to me as a Ranger/Cleric and Entangle didn't seem to work well either. For me it was literally throw summons at it, hide and pick off Invisible Stalkers to avoid horrible horrible death. It kept shrugging off Nymph crowd control spells like nobody's business as well. One of my worst fights in the runthrough, though worth it for the +3 Sling.
Naturally I avoided Karoug like the plague that run, Glyph spam is a little tedious and the island offers pretty little of use for a Cleric anyway.
And really, idgaf about your "reasonable minds" or if you have a problem with my "disrespect" since players like you deserve no respect whatsoever.
You might not "gaf", but I do. And your conduct in this thread has long since crossed the line from "trolling" to "flaming", both of which are explicitly prohibited on this site. This is your only warning to cut it out. If you can't be civil on these forums, perhaps this isn't the place for you.
Web is a good idea, but not available to me as a Ranger/Cleric and Entangle didn't seem to work well either. For me it was literally throw summons at it, hide and pick off Invisible Stalkers to avoid horrible horrible death. It kept shrugging off Nymph crowd control spells like nobody's business as well. One of my worst fights in the runthrough, though worth it for the +3 Sling.
Naturally I avoided Karoug like the plague that run, Glyph spam is a little tedious and the island offers pretty little of use for a Cleric anyway.
Good point on the Air Aspect. I can't think of a cleric crowd control spell that would help on that.
@AHF I realize it would kind of break the spirit of why you are on the island.
But having an option to teleport back to Ulgoths Beard to resupply / get new people / come back later would be nice from a user friendliness point of view.
@AHF I realize it would kind of break the spirit of why you are on the island.
But having an option to teleport back to Ulgoths Beard to resupply / get new people / come back later would be nice from a user friendliness point of view.
There is a mage who wants your help as well as some of the werewolves who are willing to break against their own kind to assist you....but at the end of the day a staff or club with cold iron/silver properties gets you through the entire dilemma.
At least, there need to be weapons usable by other classes that work. I find this fight a bit silly, almost in the realm of the Nabassu (actually, Nabassu is worse, but you can avoid it by not going there).
There is a mage who wants your help as well as some of the werewolves who are willing to break against their own kind to assist you....but at the end of the day a staff or club with cold iron/silver properties gets you through the entire dilemma.
In my opinion giving the player a cleric weapon is probably the best alternative. All other classes are conveniently given a weapon they can use, so why not the cleric? I'm fine with battles being insanely difficult, but this seems kind of broken. The only way off the island seems to be glyph stacking (has this even been tested successfully?). If you were able to leave the island without defeating him I would leave it be, but if you are on the island this battle is actually necessary to progress in the main plot.
There is a mage who wants your help as well as some of the werewolves who are willing to break against their own kind to assist you....but at the end of the day a staff or club with cold iron/silver properties gets you through the entire dilemma.
In my opinion giving the player a cleric weapon is probably the best alternative. All other classes are conveniently given a weapon they can use, so why not the cleric? I'm fine with battles being insanely difficult, but this seems kind of broken. The only way off the island seems to be glyph stacking (has this even been tested successfully?). If you were able to leave the island without defeating him I would leave it be, but if you are on the island this battle is actually necessary to progress in the main plot.
I'd be fine with this sort of change. I just don't want the regeneration of the GWW touched, that's literally the only difficult part about the fight and it presents a unique challenge.
Does the game auto-save before you leave the island or before you arrive?
If it auto-saves before you leave, then all you need is some available weapons that will bypass the GWW's regeneration; if you missed them before you left, you can go back to get them by reloading your auto-save. (This would be a feature request.)
If it auto-saves before your arrival, it truly becomes a no-solution event, which is significant to be called a bug, and would warrant being moved to the appropriate forum.
The game autosaves when you leave the island village (when you head north). So if you have already fought Karoug and failed, your Auto-save is already at the Werewolf island and there is nothing you can do, unless you made a backup save file.
These are the only 3 alternatives:
a) Restart the game. b) Cheese the encounter. c) Keep trying different strategies until you succeed. Go farm some regular Wolfweres if you need a couple more levels.
Sorry, but I don't count murder to be an "acceptable" way to progress (if for no other reason than Good characters wouldn't see this as an option). The issue needs a look, which is why I put it in this forum. If it warrants a fix it will get one; if not, it won't.
Do we really need an autosave before the player quite clearly is leaving on a long ocean voyage? It's not exactly a spontaneous event. And there is a weapon on the island that works against greater lycans.
Most importantly, the head of the village is evil, and you end up killing her anyway. It isn't hard to figure out from dialogue that you are dealing with two different werewolf factions and not a werewolf and a human faction. So any smart character would figure it out, at that point a good character would probably take out the head of an evil werewolf clan planning to go to the mainland and instead of being used by the two factions, would go straight towards "fixing" the problem. And that problem is the faction trying to get to the mainland, not the faction that doesn't care.
Secondly, how is stacking glyph of warding not an "acceptable" way to progress? Just because someone doesn't like how they have to solve an encounter doesn't mean it isn't solvable.
You can: 1) Bring someone who can use a dagger or bastard sword. 2) Stack glyph of warding if you only have clerics 3) Kill the head of the village 4) Stack skull traps if you only brought mages and don't want to dagger fight him
If this issue needs a look at with 4 very easy options that apply to any class / solo / party combinations, on top of the fact that this area is optional...
I'm honestly not trying to upset anyone, but option 3 is going to apply to any alignment depending on party intelligence if you want to RP it. AND if you are going to RP it, then why wouldn't a stuck cleric decide that instead of upsetting their god and using an edged weapon, that they would lay a trap (Glyphs of Warding) for the GWW?
Do we really need an autosave before the player quite clearly is leaving on a long ocean voyage? It's not exactly a spontaneous event. And there is a weapon on the island that works against greater lycans.
No, my point was that if the auto-save sets you at the moment of your return, you have no way of doing anything different. If it sets you at the moment before your departure, then when you reload you have an opportunity to change your strategy.
I don't see how this is a bug. It's an arguably poorly designed encounter (I don't personally think so, obviously, I'm just allowing for other opinions), but the only way it forms an insurmountable obstacle is if the player is woefully unprepared and unimaginative. Seeing as how this game is fourteen years old and this thread has demonstrated myriad ways of taking down the GWW, wouldn't this thread be more appropriately moved to the Feature Request forum?
I fail to see the problem in this. Dradeel waited hundreds years and finally a group of adventurers came to rescue him. Can't Charname do the same? Imo you didn't wait enough...
Honestly, if you can get off the island by killing the head of the village it is bullshit to "fix" this. Adding a blunt weapon that actually can hit him would be appreciable though...
This topic is entirely moot after setting the magic flags properly. Karough will be hit by anything magical (still regenerates like crazy, but this is really just a question of dps).
Comments
Deal with it.
From a design perspective, it is unique in the series and the discussion is over whether there is merit to that uniqueness or whether the same conditions that apply to every other encounter in BG1, TOSC, BG2, and TOB might not be preferrable.
My perspective is that reasonable minds differ on this point, but I think the optionality available to every other fight that is essential to a key path at any point in BG1, TOSC, BG2, and TOB is preferrable.
Worst case scenario, you get trapped in the island and are forced to restart (only a couple hours). But obviously some people can't face the fact that they just lost in a video game, and therefore cry for nerfs.
Some guy just posted a video of him soloing Karoug on insane. He was level 9 though, and had pretty good gear/potions/scrolls. Do you insist that the encounter is broken?
Actually all three of those fights are doable solo without cheesy tricks. I certainly wiped out Sarevok's entire team solo with my Ranger/Cleric and his army of undead. Being immune to magic, hasted, making every saving throw automagically and hitting for 20 odd damage per sling bullet is pretty well godmode when it comes to "difficult" encounters like these.
Of the three, the Demon Knight is probably the worst, and even then it's trivially easy to become undispellably immune to fire - his only ranged option, and just beat him to death with sling bullets. The Air Aspect fight is unquestionably more difficult than all three in my opinion.
The Air Aspect fight I find pretty easy if you combine webs with a ring of free action. That combined with your sling technique and ranged spells is very effective with a low risk profile.
Web is a good idea, but not available to me as a Ranger/Cleric and Entangle didn't seem to work well either. For me it was literally throw summons at it, hide and pick off Invisible Stalkers to avoid horrible horrible death. It kept shrugging off Nymph crowd control spells like nobody's business as well. One of my worst fights in the runthrough, though worth it for the +3 Sling.
Naturally I avoided Karoug like the plague that run, Glyph spam is a little tedious and the island offers pretty little of use for a Cleric anyway.
@AHF , my apologies. I hope we can discuss about the game in a more civilized way. And yes, i admit that the most uncivilized posts came from me.
OT: If there is a way you can send me your saved game. i will kill Karoug with your cleric and frap a video.
I realize it would kind of break the spirit of why you are on the island.
But having an option to teleport back to Ulgoths Beard to resupply / get new people / come back later would be nice from a user friendliness point of view.
If it auto-saves before you leave, then all you need is some available weapons that will bypass the GWW's regeneration; if you missed them before you left, you can go back to get them by reloading your auto-save. (This would be a feature request.)
If it auto-saves before your arrival, it truly becomes a no-solution event, which is significant to be called a bug, and would warrant being moved to the appropriate forum.
These are the only 3 alternatives:
a) Restart the game.
b) Cheese the encounter.
c) Keep trying different strategies until you succeed. Go farm some regular Wolfweres if you need a couple more levels.
You win at this thread. You just made every discussion or point made in this 4 page thread null and void.
@Aosaw
Since that's the case this doesn't belong in bugs (given that glyph stacking works, I tried it, it really didn't belong in bugs to begin with)
Most importantly, the head of the village is evil, and you end up killing her anyway. It isn't hard to figure out from dialogue that you are dealing with two different werewolf factions and not a werewolf and a human faction. So any smart character would figure it out, at that point a good character would probably take out the head of an evil werewolf clan planning to go to the mainland and instead of being used by the two factions, would go straight towards "fixing" the problem. And that problem is the faction trying to get to the mainland, not the faction that doesn't care.
Secondly, how is stacking glyph of warding not an "acceptable" way to progress? Just because someone doesn't like how they have to solve an encounter doesn't mean it isn't solvable.
You can:
1) Bring someone who can use a dagger or bastard sword.
2) Stack glyph of warding if you only have clerics
3) Kill the head of the village
4) Stack skull traps if you only brought mages and don't want to dagger fight him
If this issue needs a look at with 4 very easy options that apply to any class / solo / party combinations, on top of the fact that this area is optional...
I'm honestly not trying to upset anyone, but option 3 is going to apply to any alignment depending on party intelligence if you want to RP it. AND if you are going to RP it, then why wouldn't a stuck cleric decide that instead of upsetting their god and using an edged weapon, that they would lay a trap (Glyphs of Warding) for the GWW?
Dradeel waited hundreds years and finally a group of adventurers came to rescue him.
Can't Charname do the same? Imo you didn't wait enough...