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Fallout 1+2: Enhanced Edition

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  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425

    Best way to do an EE of Fallout 1 & 2 would be to remake their content in Fallout: New Vegas' construction kit. Y'know, so the gameplay isn't boring, unbalanced, or clunky-beyond-all-reason.

    I remember the opening stage of Fallout 2 its pretty hard to finish if the chosen one Isn't skilled in mele e.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,951


    I remember the opening stage of Fallout 2 its pretty hard to finish if the chosen one Isn't skilled in mele e.

    It's actually super easy, but extremely tedious and time-consuming if you want to bother with killing everything w/o unarmed/melee tagged skills. Strike once, run away. Strike once, run away. Strike once, run away. As long as you have like 7-8 AP (though you should have more) you can get by well enough, but sometimes you miss 5 in a row and that's not very funny.

    YamchaMusigny
  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 478
    edited December 2015
    You can skip all critters.
    And you can avoid the last encounter by talking him out of it, steal the key or kill him.
    Or you can pick the Jinxed trait so he knocks himself out.

    Remaking this scene after a new Fallout fashion, you could talk to him (Yes, No, Sarcasm, Leave) and all 4 options would result in a fight.

    TuthFinneousPJSkatanMusigny
  • BelanosBelanos Member Posts: 968
    SethDavis said:

    unless we just used ourselves as voice actors of course, that probably would annoy any unions...?

    And possibly many of the players as well?

    Yamcha
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190

    FNV isn't clunky?

    Not compared to a game where you have to click a button for the game to even recognize you're trying to fight something, or where the animations are so terrible that moving in a straight diagonal line causes your character to zig-zag like a jackass. FNV's only really clunky aspect is having to equip your grenades and other explosive devices, but you can hotkey your explosives or get the Project Nevada mod that gives you a grenade key. But, compare that to all that you have to do in Fallout 2 just to set that explosive in order to progress through the starter dungeon, and doesn't even bother to explain how to do any of that.

    @Skatan

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,951
    @Schneidend: Not sure why I was summoned?

    FO is built around a grid where you're percentage of success is based upon distance ie number of grids between you and your opponent, and your skills ofc. Sure, it would have been nice to have characters move diagonally, but it matters little. The most annoying and 'clunky' part of FO is IMHO the rather tedious design where all menues have to slide up and down before you can close them, like when talking to your NPC's and want to check/change their gear etc and have to alter between talk/trade/combat setup screens. Those two seconds you have to wait can feel like a lifetime after the 1000:th time, heh..

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @Skatan
    You asked me to elaborate, so I did. My hatred of the classic Fallout's movement animations is just one reason why I find them completely overrated. There are others, including the one you mentioned, the bad game balance overall. As @ShapiroKeatsDarkMage points out, Fallout 2's entire starting section, the temple and the village, is an atrocious affront to any notion of fairness or intelligent design. One of your first side quests is to kill some plants that have more than triple the HP of a character built to have high HP, are difficult to hit for a level 1 character to hit even standing right next to them (why? they can't move, as they are rooted to the ground), and have a very good chance of hitting you. Fallout 1 was much better about this sort of thing. You start with a gun and a knife, and can usually hit the basic enemies even if you didn't tag either of those skills.
    Yamcha said:



    Remaking this scene after a new Fallout fashion, you could talk to him (Yes, No, Sarcasm, Leave) and all 4 options would result in a fight.

    Except, no. FNV could handle it just like FO2.

    Hell, even though I have problems with FO4's 4 dialogue options, it still has speech checks and such.

    If you want to be obtuse when talking about the newer Fallouts, No Mutants Allowed does exist.

    ShapiroKeatsDarkMage
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    My friend loves Fallouts 3 and 4. Not my bag, preferring Fallout 2, but even Fallout 2 has major flaws. Your computer controlled party members get themselves and each other and you killed. It's easier to fight packs of enemies by yourself with a melee skill and a ranged skill tagged than to bother recruiting anyone.

    Can't wait to play Wasteland 2. :3

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425

    My friend loves Fallouts 3 and 4.

    Poor fella. Does he know 1,2 and New Vegas?

    O_BruceRaduziel
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425

    @Skatan
    You asked me to elaborate, so I did. My hatred of the classic Fallout's movement animations is just one reason why I find them completely overrated. There are others, including the one you mentioned, the bad game balance overall. As @ShapiroKeatsDarkMage points out, Fallout 2's entire starting section, the temple and the village, is an atrocious affront to any notion of fairness or intelligent design. One of your first side quests is to kill some plants that have more than triple the HP of a character built to have high HP, are difficult to hit for a level 1 character to hit even standing right next to them (why? they can't move, as they are rooted to the ground), and have a very good chance of hitting you. Fallout 1 was much better about this sort of thing. You start with a gun and a knife, and can usually hit the basic enemies even if you didn't tag either of those skills.

    Yamcha said:



    Remaking this scene after a new Fallout fashion, you could talk to him (Yes, No, Sarcasm, Leave) and all 4 options would result in a fight.

    Except, no. FNV could handle it just like FO2.

    Hell, even though I have problems with FO4's 4 dialogue options, it still has speech checks and such.

    If you want to be obtuse when talking about the newer Fallouts, No Mutants Allowed does exist.

    @Skatan
    You asked me to elaborate, so I did. My hatred of the classic Fallout's movement animations is just one reason why I find them completely overrated. There are others, including the one you mentioned, the bad game balance overall. As @ShapiroKeatsDarkMage points out, Fallout 2's entire starting section, the temple and the village, is an atrocious affront to any notion of fairness or intelligent design. One of your first side quests is to kill some plants that have more than triple the HP of a character built to have high HP, are difficult to hit for a level 1 character to hit even standing right next to them (why? they can't move, as they are rooted to the ground), and have a very good chance of hitting you. Fallout 1 was much better about this sort of thing. You start with a gun and a knife, and can usually hit the basic enemies even if you didn't tag either of those skills.

    Yamcha said:



    Remaking this scene after a new Fallout fashion, you could talk to him (Yes, No, Sarcasm, Leave) and all 4 options would result in a fight.

    Except, no. FNV could handle it just like FO2.

    Hell, even though I have problems with FO4's 4 dialogue options, it still has speech checks and such.

    If you want to be obtuse when talking about the newer Fallouts, No Mutants Allowed does exist.

    @Skatan
    You asked me to elaborate, so I did. My hatred of the classic Fallout's movement animations is just one reason why I find them completely overrated. There are others, including the one you mentioned, the bad game balance overall. As @ShapiroKeatsDarkMage points out, Fallout 2's entire starting section, the temple and the village, is an atrocious affront to any notion of fairness or intelligent design. One of your first side quests is to kill some plants that have more than triple the HP of a character built to have high HP, are difficult to hit for a level 1 character to hit even standing right next to them (why? they can't move, as they are rooted to the ground), and have a very good chance of hitting you. Fallout 1 was much better about this sort of thing. You start with a gun and a knife, and can usually hit the basic enemies even if you didn't tag either of those skills.

    Yamcha said:



    Remaking this scene after a new Fallout fashion, you could talk to him (Yes, No, Sarcasm, Leave) and all 4 options would result in a fight.

    Except, no. FNV could handle it just like FO2.

    Hell, even though I have problems with FO4's 4 dialogue options, it still has speech checks and such.

    If you want to be obtuse when talking about the newer Fallouts, No Mutants Allowed does exist.


    I think he would feel like at home at NMA's forum.

  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 478

    One of your first side quests is to kill some plants that have more than triple the HP of a character built to have high HP, are difficult to hit for a level 1 character to hit even standing right next to them


    Yeah, would have been much cooler if you get a power armor and a fully loaded mini gun to take care of those pesky plants.

    Your not supposed to make 1 character build that can achieve everything. You can also return later and do this. Or lower the difficulty if your that inapt

    In Fallout1 you start from a vault, which is stocked with some basic weapons.
    In Fallout2 you start as a tribal, the only gun is an old relic from the first vault dweller.

    That is intelligent design

    MusignySkatan
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702

    My friend loves Fallouts 3 and 4.

    Poor fella. Does he know 1,2 and New Vegas?

    Not sure about New Vegas, but she hasn't played the old games. I mean, to her the games have always been about first person view and shooting, eh? :) I wouldn't begrudge someone who enjoys Metroid Prime's first person view, yet doesn't like Super Metroid's 2D platforming shooting.

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
    Oh oh i'm getting the Popcorn.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,951
    edited January 2016

    @Skatan
    You asked me to elaborate, so I did. My hatred of the classic Fallout's movement animations is just one reason why I find them completely overrated. There are others, including the one you mentioned, the bad game balance overall. As @ShapiroKeatsDarkMage points out, Fallout 2's entire starting section, the temple and the village, is an atrocious affront to any notion of fairness or intelligent design. One of your first side quests is to kill some plants that have more than triple the HP of a character built to have high HP, are difficult to hit for a level 1 character to hit even standing right next to them (why? they can't move, as they are rooted to the ground), and have a very good chance of hitting you. Fallout 1 was much better about this sort of thing. You start with a gun and a knife, and can usually hit the basic enemies even if you didn't tag either of those skills.

    OK, 'twas so long ago I forgot and I only scrolled up to my previous reply in this thread.

    Is it amazing level/starting design? No maybe not, but it makes alot of sense story-wise. The way these tribals worship the ancient vault dweller and their rite of passage etc, it's a rather cool start for an epic adventure without force-choking you into some extraplanar being with a god and/or dragon as father. If you bother with any of that (the story and lore I mean), you'd prolly appreciate the starting area more.

    I agree, though, the plants are tedious as hell, but everything else is quite easily managable even without unarmed/melee tagged. Not starting with a gun and a knife is not poor design. The only reason you wouldn't tag unarmed and/or melee is if you are metagaming, and if you are metagaming and then complain you can't hit things in melee it just make you sound daft. There's plenty of skill points around for two offensive skills, both one melee and one ranged so not choosing one and then blaiming the game is kinda stupid.

    Not compared to a game where you have to click a button for the game to even recognize you're trying to fight something, or where the animations are so terrible that moving in a straight diagonal line causes your character to zig-zag like a jackass. FNV's only really clunky aspect is having to equip your grenades and other explosive devices, but you can hotkey your explosives or get the Project Nevada mod that gives you a grenade key. But, compare that to all that you have to do in Fallout 2 just to set that explosive in order to progress through the starter dungeon, and doesn't even bother to explain how to do any of that.


    Yeah, there are some parts of the controls which could have been alot better. The whole clicking and action, clicking where to execute action, is tedious and clunky. Comparing FO2 to FNV is pointless though considering the years between their releases. You find a door you can't open. You search the area. You find explosives. You dont find any key or button to open the door. What to do? It's really not that hard to find out..

    Mathsorcerer
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Yamcha said:




    Yeah, would have been much cooler if you get a power armor and a fully loaded mini gun to take care of those pesky plants.

    Well, I mean, not the minigun, but you could run on down to Navarro for the power armor. Y'know, if you wanted to be a cheezy munchkin, I guess.

    Your not supposed to make 1 character build that can achieve everything. You can also return later and do this. Or lower the difficulty if your that inapt
    So, I should get punished for not tagging Melee or Unarmed? Why? If we're a primitive tribe of schmucks, even though we came out of a Vault that would have likewise had security forces and all the gear that implies like pistols, batons, and light armor, why don't we have bows or other ranged weapons that could be shoehorned into Guns or Big Guns or some other skill. Or, better yet, since I'm the Chosen One, just give me the pistol from the get-go. Even with the pistol or a character trained to kick ass with spears, I can simply get decent dice rolls that don't mean diddly against the unreasonably-high-for-an-immobile- creature avoidance chance of these rooted plant monsters. Aptitude, or a lack thereof, has nothing to do with it. I spec'd my character to be a stabber of plants, and still missed the vast majority of my attacks even on several reloads. Can we really call me "inept" just because I have trouble with this one terrible game, despite having beaten the Baldur's Gate games several times each? No, is the answer to that question.

    I'm not asking for much. But, if I get a sidequest in the starting village that takes place in that starting village, right behind a guy's house, and that person act's like it's something easy that he'd do if he didn't have me to boss around, why are these plants so powerful? It just doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm supposed to run off on the main adventure, then come back later with an SMG to kill some plants? I don't want to achieve everything. I want to be able to accomplish the things the game gives me to do, because the game is supposed to be doing its best to get me engaged and start caring. Fallout 2 supremely failed to grab me because it did everything it could to push me away.
    In Fallout1 you start from a vault, which is stocked with some basic weapons.
    In Fallout2 you start as a tribal, the only gun is an old relic from the first vault dweller.

    That is intelligent design
    It's narrative design, but not really good game design. You should always be able to start with the most basic weapon of your character's specialization. There's a reason why BG, BG2, IWD, NWN, and NWN2 all give you the ability to do this. It's just common sense game design to do so. Even though IWD2 doesn't, and has you fighting your first few goblins with quarterstaves and spears even if you're not skilled with them, but adjusts the challenge of the goblins accordingly. Meanwhile, not only does Fallout 2 not give you the option to acquire your favored weapon type, it pits you against some early game enemies that can trounce you even if you do specialize in spears or your fists.

    ShapiroKeatsDarkMage
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Skatan said:



    Yeah, there are some parts of the controls which could have been alot better. The whole clicking and action, clicking where to execute action, is tedious and clunky. Comparing FO2 to FNV is pointless though considering the years between their releases. You find a door you can't open. You search the area. You find explosives. You dont find any key or button to open the door. What to do? It's really not that hard to find out..

    I never made the argument that it was hard, only that it was clunky and silly.

    ShapiroKeatsDarkMage
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    @Schneidend I never had that much trouble with the plants. You must be doing something wrong.

    SkatanMathsorcerer
  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 478
    You have a pretty narrow view. There are no strict rules how to design a game (even if Bioware sticks to the same pattern, story and NPC wise). You disliking it doesn't make it bad, in contrary.

    But beating the plants is really easy. You'll find several spears in the temple. Spears have a higher range. So attack the plant, step out of range, end the turn. Rinse & Repeat
    Also, never fight both at the same time.

    SkatanMusigny
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,951


    Well, I mean, not the minigun, but you could run on down to Navarro for the power armor. Y'know, if you wanted to be a cheezy munchkin, I guess.

    It almost sounds like you think the navarro-run is to tedious and want everything spoonfed from the get-go. Maybe you should try some console games instead?
    Yamcha said:


    Your not supposed to make 1 character build that can achieve everything. You can also return later and do this. Or lower the difficulty if your that inapt

    Actually you can. Not in the same way as in eg FO3, but you can make a char with 1-2 fighting skills maxed along with mostly 10's and still be able to get the supporting skills repair, doctor, science, speech etc well over 100. It's not really hard and is made even easier by cheesing difficulty levels when reading books etc.


    So, I should get punished for not tagging Melee or Unarmed? Why? If we're a primitive tribe of schmucks, even though we came out of a Vault that would have likewise had security forces and all the gear that implies like pistols, batons, and light armor, why don't we have bows or other ranged weapons that could be shoehorned into Guns or Big Guns or some other skill. Or, better yet, since I'm the Chosen One, just give me the pistol from the get-go. Even with the pistol or a character trained to kick ass with spears, I can simply get decent dice rolls that don't mean diddly against the unreasonably-high-for-an-immobile- creature avoidance chance of these rooted plant monsters. Aptitude, or a lack thereof, has nothing to do with it. I spec'd my character to be a stabber of plants, and still missed the vast majority of my attacks even on several reloads. Can we really call me "inept" just because I have trouble with this one terrible game, despite having beaten the Baldur's Gate games several times each? No, is the answer to that question.

    You will get punished in the beginning if you metagame. Most RPG's do this, it's not unique for FO2. If you spec for katanas in BG1 you'll be struggling in the beginning, but if you are aming for CF or whatever and feel it's worth it, are you really punished then? Ofc not, you're metagaming. I've said it befoer, but if you are a 'primitive schmuck' and not focusing on melee, throwing or unarmed, you are metagaming and you will struggle in the beginning. It's your choice, don't whine like baby over it. The plants have high HP yes, but they can't hit a barn door so it's not like they are hard to kill. It's just tedious, not difficult. Like @FinneousPJ said, if you struggle with then you are really doing something wrong.

    It's been a looong time since I read any FO lore etc, but AFAIK the tribe you belong to in FO2 are not originally vault dwellers. They are tribals thus has no access to pre-war tech, including guns, armor etc. The original vault dweller in FO1 is said to have founded the village, I think, but the actual villagers are probable mostly tribals. Since they have a vault suit though, they could also have had a gun or two stashed away. That wouldn't have been completely inplausable.

    And yeah, this might be difficult to hear, but you are prolly quite inept if you have trouble with the plants. That's nothing to be ashamed of though, I had a shitload of trouble facing the first wolf I met outside candlekeep when I started playing BG1 or the first mutated radscorpions outside Goodsprings in FOV etc etc.


    I'm not asking for much. But, if I get a sidequest in the starting village that takes place in that starting village, right behind a guy's house, and that person act's like it's something easy that he'd do if he didn't have me to boss around, why are these plants so powerful? It just doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm supposed to run off on the main adventure, then come back later with an SMG to kill some plants? I don't want to achieve everything. I want to be able to accomplish the things the game gives me to do, because the game is supposed to be doing its best to get me engaged and start caring. Fallout 2 supremely failed to grab me because it did everything it could to push me away.

    I can understand that, even though I don't agree of course. Hell, the umpfteenth time I had to play through the god-awful Chateau Irenicus I only did so because I know what awaited once I finally was out of that 'dungeon'. It's a way better starting dungeon than FO2's though, but it's still kinda annoying to have to run through that just to get out to Athkatla. I still remember the first time I played it and felt like it would never end!


    It's narrative design, but not really good game design. You should always be able to start with the most basic weapon of your character's specialization. There's a reason why BG, BG2, IWD, NWN, and NWN2 all give you the ability to do this. It's just common sense game design to do so. Even though IWD2 doesn't, and has you fighting your first few goblins with quarterstaves and spears even if you're not skilled with them, but adjusts the challenge of the goblins accordingly. Meanwhile, not only does Fallout 2 not give you the option to acquire your favored weapon type, it pits you against some early game enemies that can trounce you even if you do specialize in spears or your fists.

    You get spears to jab or throw, you have fists to punch with. You start with all you'll ever need to kill static plants. You can even pick up their darts and throw back at them, sleep/rest up your HP between fights, talk to the witchdoctor to heal you. You get your first gun in the first city you get to and there you will prolly, depending on random drops etc, get two-three options. Armor upgrades are slowly paced yes, but so is the opposition. I've found that the balance with armor is really good in FO2, it's your killing speed which is very unbalanced since you can reach very high levels of combat prowess in just three levels.

    Musigny
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017

    I wouldn't begrudge someone who enjoys Metroid Prime's first person view, yet doesn't like Super Metroid's 2D platforming shooting.

    I kind of would. Okay, no I wouldn't because different tastes and diversity and all. I just thought that the 2D Metroid games were the best. I liked Metroid Prime, but I think things like the original and zero mission were ground breaking where Prime was merely fun.

    typo_tilly
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    Eh. I'm less concerned now about what other people like -- so long as there's still stuff I like. :)

  • RemzyRemzy Member Posts: 1
    Has some people from 2012 said... it would be freaking awesome to have fallout1 & 2 in enhanced edition!!! I think Bethesda is done working on any fo titles for a while now.. maybe now is a good time to pitch the idea to them!!!!

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,761
    Bethesda would most likely screw them up in the progress. You can't expect anything more from them.

    ThacoBell
  • minsc4prezminsc4prez Member Posts: 97
    Ive been playing through BGEE/BG2EE and i started wondering about this very thing. I wonder if Beamdog still feels the way they did 6 years ago.

  • sarge945sarge945 Member Posts: 9
    edited March 2019
    BUMP. I would also very, very much like to see this. Beamdog please!

    Then again, Bethesda are sort of like Disney in that once they get their hands on an IP, they never let it go and always control it extremely. I know GOG has had issues with Fallout which is why they had to remove it and relist it with changes because of Bethesda (which basically meant getting rid of the mac version because apparrently Bethesda loves Windows to the point of actively controlling what platform other people play games on. Assholes).

    I am honestly surprised now that Bethesda owns ID that the GZDoom project isn't facing issues. I know there would be no legal ground for them to argue with as the source code was publicly released with a permissive license, but this is Bethesda we are talking about - they are absolute experts at putting their feet in their mouth.

    I bet you 100 "canvas" bags that Bethesda would never ever let this project go ahead for any reason, especially how the masterful design of the original games would show clear as day just how lazy and horribly made Bethesda's incarnations of the same franchise are. Surely that would be bad for business.

    IMO the only way we are going to ever see a "remastered" fallout is if someone basically remakes the engine from scratch, a moddable modular version of the engine, and then the community greatly enhances it in their own time through mods, which I doubt would be to the same quality and care as an EE, but it might be something. Then again, If things like fs2open, openRA and openRCT2 are anything to go by, the community CAN do a fantastic job at modernizing old games. It just takes a while.

  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 899
    Funny enough I reinstalled and started playing FO2 again about 5 days ago.

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