I think cheese means using game mechanics in a way they were not intended to be used. Laying 1000 traps before battle with dragon, abusing clitchy spells, etc. Not every encounter in the game has to be challenging. The whole point of having dozens of protection spells and such is that they, when properly used, make the fights much easier. Unless you are sleeping after every single fighter (this is cheese, the way enemies attack you when sleeping is clear indication that you are not supposed to sleep all the time) there is no way for you to prepare for every encounter with just the right spells and items.
SCS removes huge amount of cheese from the game by making the enemies smart enough that you can no longer abuse poor AI. For example enemies cry for help, being 1 inch in fog of war doesn't make them deaf-blind, enemies don't run after single target until they die etc.
Is it cheesier to use a scroll of protection against petrification or to use Korax? ;-)
Both are usable in both PnP and BG for this very purpose. I don't consider either cheesy.
Undead are immune to a lot of effect so they can shred basilisks, sirens, etc. They enjoy all these immunities when fighting you as well. I don't see the cheese. Moreover, the sole re ason Korax can join your party is so you can use him against the basilisks. When the developers took a very unusual step for the sole and express purpose of giving players a basilisk-immune weapon in the basilisk area, how is that cheesy? It is a consistent game mechanic and intended by the developers.
Some of the projected image/wish combinations (particularly wish rest) are things I don't think the developers ever intended and so I can see a strong argument for them being cheese given their power and that they are really exploiting a loophole rather than using something as intended.
Calling protection from petrification cheese is like calling protection from lightning cheese when you go against an opponent utilizing lightning attacks. I just don't see it.
(Note: Not that wish rest was unintended but players being able to cast wish a dozen times with projected image and use this to refresh spells in a no rest area was unintended.)
Cheese vs. non-cheese? I think that question is truly subjective. Things that I feel is cheesy may be considered legit by others and things that I feel is legit may be considered cheese by others. In fact I've previously used tactics and exploits that I didn't feel were cheesy that I now consider cheesy. So it really is subjective. If the question is subjective then we can't really find general rules. The exception to this might be "if it feels too cheesy then don't do it". To me cheese vs. non-cheese has a lot to do with not working as intended vs. working as intended. Here is what I consider cheese and non-cheese:
Anything that exploits poor programming such as repeatedly imprisoning/freedom a strong enemy for endless experience or walling in Drizzt or repeatedly selling/stealing a valuable item to shadow thieves for endless gold is cheese. Previously I didn't consider this cheesy. Or if I did I was actually proud that I found these loopholes :P.
save/load is a grey area to me. I think the rule of thumb here is do it as many times as you feel like. If it starts to feel cheesy then rethink whether or not you want to keep doing it as much as you have.
Exploiting bad AI is cheesy. Such as leaving/entering the room to get that lich to fire all his spells before combat begins is cheese. Using protection from undead vs. liches is to me not cheese. Granted it does make the encounter a lot easier but it is a spell designed to help against a specific type of enemies so why wouldn't you use it? I know some people feel the prot against undead is cheese but I feel that calling it cheese is very harsh considering I'm using the spell as intended.
It becomes more complex when we are talking about powerful items and/or powerful spells. To me using items/spells for their obvious intended purpose is not cheese. Stacking spells/items in specific ways to obtain something that was clearly a mistake is cheese. Stacking fire resistance so that you can heal by fireball is funny and not really cheesy in my book. They didn't have to program it so that you would get healed by it but they did which leads me to believe that it is working as intended. The wish (Sleep) trick might be working as intended but it is very doubtful and thus I call it cheese. Using the shield of balduran is non-cheese in my book. Just because an item is powerful doesn't make it cheese. You are using it as intended. Shield of mirroring vs. beholders is non-cheese in my book. I cannot believe that the programmers put that piece of equipment in the game without realizing that it would be used against the beholders so it is working as intended.
Does casting Doom+Lower resistance+Greater Malison finished by Chromatic Orb's instakill counts as a cheesy way to kill Firkraag at level 12? Cuz I really like this way of killing dragons. It's also good to soften them up with a Ring of Ram. I also prefer to kill Kangaxx with a mage+Keldorn and his Carsomyr - I usually cast some Magic Protection spells on my mage including the most important Spell Immunity spell to counter Imprisonment's school of magic (Abjuration) and then move in Keldorn behind the mage. Since Kangaxx is aggroed on the mage Keldorn can pound him to death with Carsomyr, finished by the same Ring of Ram, the mage usually helps out with Melf's Minute Meteors.
What I personally consider cheesy but love to exploit is Cloudkill wand: In vanilla BG2 you can dispatch whole Beholders lair by spamming Cloudkill from wands and then running for the exit - usually no beholder survives that long to follow you. It also works very well on illithid - cast cloudkill into the room with illithids and then slam the door in front of you quickly. These doors in illithid lairs almost seem to be put there deliberately to practice this exploit. They also help prepare the road full of traps for illithids who follow you.
@Bhaaldog It's cheese because the Protection from Undead is supposed to be removed if hostile action is taken against the warded targets...Baldur's Gate doesn't do this.
@Darkcloud The sad part is...Kangaxx and the other Demi-lich are actually MUCH weaker then they're supposed to be.
@AHF Actually, that use of cloudkill is completely legit...the poison cloud itself isn't magical at all, It's an invocation effect, meaning the cloud is being called to that location by magic, but isn't actually magical itself (technically web is supposed to work the same way, but I can't remember if it does in-game or not). If the target isn't immune to poison, it's vulnerable to the cloud, regardless of any other defenses it may possess.
If anti-magic field was available, you could drop it on a cloudkill, and the cloud would disperse based on the ambient wind speed, but wouldn't just disappear instantly. The invocation merely brings it to that location and keeps it from dispersing from the affected area till the spell ends.
Wish resting is legit...otherwise it wouldn't be a possible option. And you're not even guaranteed to get it, even with 25 int/wis.
Project Image abuse and Mislead abuse are completely separate issues, and go WAY beyond cheese, they're flat out broken mechanics.
Projected image is just supposed to be the origin of your spells, and any spells it casts are used up from your stock...currently broken.
Mislead is just a plain improved invisibility spell and also summons an illusion that can be used as a distraction...your invisibility status should not have anything to do with the illusion, or vice versa...the illusion lasts until it's destroyed, dispelled, or it's duration runs out...while your improved invisibility lasts until dispelled, it runs out, or you take any action that would drop invisibility after which you get 4 rounds of partial invisibility as appropriate for improved invisibility...and that is it. Currently broken as well.
Also bard images (from Project image or Mislead) shouldn't be able to sing. Well..they can APPEAR to sing, but the song shouldn't actually do anything, since they aren't real and have no real abilities.
Simulacrum on the other hand are mostly legit, as they're temporary, weaker copies of the character, and can indeed take any actions the original could at their adjusted level. The only exception is equipped gear which is only supposed to to appear to the same, but actually be cheap copies with none of the actual abilities,..like a longsword +2 would appear to be the longsword +2, but only hit as a plain longsword. Or he could appear to be wearing the Robe of Vecna, but not have any of it's abilities.
closing the door after using cloudkill is exploiting poor AI. Someone about to die from poisonous gas will attempt to open doors to get away from it. If it is true that protection from undead is supposed to disappear after you take hostile actions against undead and the game doesn't take it away then I agree using prot from undead is cheesy. But I haven't seen that anywhere in the description of the spell?
@AHF Actually, that use of cloudkill is completely legit...the poison cloud itself isn't magical at all, It's an invocation effect, meaning the cloud is being called to that location by magic, but isn't actually magical itself (technically web is supposed to work the same way, but I can't remember if it does in-game or not). If the target isn't immune to poison, it's vulnerable to the cloud, regardless of any other defenses it may possess.
It is considered a spell by the game since magic immune creatures are immune to the spell. The wand is supposed to recreate the effect of the spell - both through magic. There is a bug in the coding of the wand that makes it bypass magic resistance. The fact that the wand functions differently than the spell is a bug and use of the same is clear cheese. I get the logic of your argument (which could apply to fire and other things as well) in a PnP setting, but it doesn't fly in BG as a means of explaining why the spell and wand are so very different such that the wand is one of the most devastating items in the entire game and the spell is drastically less effective against magic immune creatures.
killing gaxxie with prot from undead scroll: cheap making him your bitch by playing the great magic metagame: awesomeness (how nice of you to have dispels and infinity imprisonments, go meet my little friend, spell immunity: abjuration. oh, you can cast fears? resist fear. stun? freedom of movement. instant death spells? death ward.)
setting traps where enemies will miraculously appear: cheap as hell baiting mr. oh so badass dragon into a time trap and murdering him in the most humiliating way possible: [diabolical laughter]
using mislead/backstabs, project image exploits (or just the spell itself in my book), firing cloudkills under an enemy that can't hit back and goddamn rest until healed pretty much turn you into a 2$ hooker, sorry.
against beholders... yeah, the shield is fine. it's OP as hell, but once something start throwing around irresistible dispels, fair play is off the table.
killing gaxxie with prot from undead scroll: cheap making him your bitch by playing the great magic metagame: awesomeness (how nice of you to have dispels and infinity imprisonments, go meet my little friend, spell immunity: abjuration. oh, you can cast fears? resist fear. stun? freedom of movement. instant death spells? death ward.)
Explain to me how using a spell as intended like prot from undead is cheap when you in the same arguement metagame how best to defend against the same creature? I get casting most of the spells afterall we are going to meet a lich and we know it. But "spell immunity: abjuration"? Why would your character assume that would be relevant?
I get that protection from undead is very powerful against him and I'd be all for a revision of the spell so that it might stop working after an initial attack or maybe that Gax as an intelligent undead gets a save (or both) but I believe it is fairplay because nothing in the game seem to indicate that something is wrong (except the sheer power of the spell).
On the cloudkill wand? I never realized that it circumvented magic resistance. How can you not know that this is not working as intended? A wand is supposed to cast a spell using your talent but stored energy. The spell from the wand should be identical to the normal spell cloudkill and if you knew that you were circumventing magic resistance then please don't make up excuses. You are of course perfectly free to keep using this trick but trying to tell us that it isn't cheese? Come on!
Not idea what you're talking about. I can't see any difference between them in game, hell they even have identical stats and resources when looked at in NI. Both spell and wand by-pass magic resistance.
@AHF Actually, that use of cloudkill is completely legit...the poison cloud itself isn't magical at all, It's an invocation effect, meaning the cloud is being called to that location by magic, but isn't actually magical itself (technically web is supposed to work the same way, but I can't remember if it does in-game or not). If the target isn't immune to poison, it's vulnerable to the cloud, regardless of any other defenses it may possess.
It is considered a spell by the game since magic immune creatures are immune to the spell. The wand is supposed to recreate the effect of the spell - both through magic. There is a bug in the coding of the wand that makes it bypass magic resistance. The fact that the wand functions differently than the spell is a bug and use of the same is clear cheese. I get the logic of your argument (which could apply to fire and other things as well) in a PnP setting, but it doesn't fly in BG as a means of explaining why the spell and wand are so very different such that the wand is one of the most devastating items in the entire game and the spell is drastically less effective against magic immune creatures.
I agree with all the rest of your post.
I was going by this post if I'm being honest. Silly stupid me for not checking it myself. If both the spell and the wand bypass magical immunity then using the cloudkill wand against magical immune creatures is completely non-cheese.
against beholders... yeah, the shield is fine. it's OP as hell, but once something start throwing around irresistible dispels, fair play is off the table.
I know it's not quite analogous, but I always pictured myself like Perseus using his mirror shield against Medusa when I use the Shield of Balduran... XD
@Lifat: spell immunity: abjuration is pretty much always relevant. all liches like to cast dispel magic, and it's the only spell that can protect against it safely, whereas all the tougher ones throw around imprisonment like candy - spell immunity: abjuration is the ONLY thing that can protect you from that, afaik.
so yeah, if you're playing a fighter/mage or FMT, you'll basically have to fill your lvl 5 slots with these, and only these. and it's awesome.
@AHF Actually, that use of cloudkill is completely legit...the poison cloud itself isn't magical at all, It's an invocation effect, meaning the cloud is being called to that location by magic, but isn't actually magical itself (technically web is supposed to work the same way, but I can't remember if it does in-game or not). If the target isn't immune to poison, it's vulnerable to the cloud, regardless of any other defenses it may possess.
It is considered a spell by the game since magic immune creatures are immune to the spell. The wand is supposed to recreate the effect of the spell - both through magic. There is a bug in the coding of the wand that makes it bypass magic resistance. The fact that the wand functions differently than the spell is a bug and use of the same is clear cheese. I get the logic of your argument (which could apply to fire and other things as well) in a PnP setting, but it doesn't fly in BG as a means of explaining why the spell and wand are so very different such that the wand is one of the most devastating items in the entire game and the spell is drastically less effective against magic immune creatures.
I agree with all the rest of your post.
I was going by this post if I'm being honest. Silly stupid me for not checking it myself. If both the spell and the wand bypass magical immunity then using the cloudkill wand against magical immune creatures is completely non-cheese.
Silly on you twice for not checking it the second time!
Not idea what you're talking about. I can't see any difference between them in game, hell they even have identical stats and resources when looked at in NI. Both spell and wand by-pass magic resistance.
I don't mean to be rude, but how do you not see a difference in game? Have you played through TOB using the cloudkill spell and the wand against magic resistant creatures? This is a reasonably well known bug.
The Cloudkill wand has a larger cheese factor. It "appears" that it by-passes magic resistence. I used the spell Cloudkill on 2 different dragons and as expected it only hurt them on a few of the rounds it was in effect. But when I used the wand it hurt them "every" round. But I like carrying the wand so that I don't have to memorize the spell.
Don't get the point of this Discussion. You have to remember, when you played the game the first time and how difficult the game was. My first encounter with Kangaxx was a mess!
first round: My whole Party was imprisoned (i never was a fan of using scrolls of Protection from undead/Magic)
second round: Try to throw in as many summoned Creatures as possible and kill him, while he imprison every bear and wolf arround him. Result: My whole Party imprisoned
third round: try it again, he was near death result: My hole Pary imprisoned
okay, searching my Spellbook for better Spells protection or weap....you know what i'll be back you son of a......
And then you have a mage with a full Spellbook (i.E.) and you can protect yourself against every single source out there in bg. How damn rewarding it was to kick his ass finally as you've learned, that Spell immunity worked against Imprisonment (i was a newbie, before i was a metagamer ;-)). And that all before tob! It only becomes cheesy because most of you have played the game several times (i think about 10 times and more :-D).
Items like Robe of Vecna or any high level ability (High level Traps, improved alacrity, greater whirlwind) or +6 Weapons that grant 50% MR and so on are all cheesy. Especcially for SoA. And you know why? They are supposed to be. A level 31-40 Character is a half-god in the D&D-Universe, i guess... so enjoy you're earned power ;-)
Why you guys care so much about cheese since BG is a single player game ?
I mean, each individual can make up his or hers own rules and play with it, fun is all that matter in single player.
Cheese is a issue in MMORPG where YOUR unfair exploit espoils other people's fun.
I think the point was simply to find out what people's opinions were on the subject, and to see where people draw the line about what they will or will not due in order to keep the game fun for themselves. I don't think the purpose was to actually come up with a hard and fast rule about what is or isn't cheese, or to tell people who do use cheese that they're doing something wrong. If using cheese (or even flat out cheating) makes the game more fun for someone, more power to them. At least, that's how the thread started out.
For instance, for most of my BG playthroughs I deliberatly haven't picked up the items found in hidden containers (like the ring of wizardry outside the Frienly Arm Inn). My reasoning for this is that you would never have found them were it not for the fact that you looked at a guide/use the tab function (assuming you're playing BGtutu). But I would certainly never tell someone that they're playing the game wrong if they do use these items.
@TheCoffeeGod. So, when you go into the underdark and are told that there is a Mindflayer community in the vicinity, yet you don't memorize the protection "While you are walking around town" but do once you are setting out to confront said Illithids, is that cheese or no?
Or if you are playing Icewind dale and you memorize more fire spells and very few Ice Storm spells, is that cheese?
See, in for a penny, in for a pound. There are ways that you can squirm around the problem. At the end of the day, Protection from petrification has extremely limited use. Once you rescue Branwen from petrification, you can assume that there is something around that will do it (and presumably she will tell you what and where). So when exploring that side of the map, I'd have protections prepared. And considering that gives pretty much 100% protection from the beasties, I'd call it a cheese win. Loads of XP for almost no risk. But it is acceptable cheese.
@TheCoffeeGod. So, when you go into the underdark and are told that there is a Mindflayer community in the vicinity, yet you don't memorize the protection "While you are walking around town" but do once you are setting out to confront said Illithids, is that cheese or no?
See, this isn't metagaming, since you're actually told "ingame knowledge in game" which defines your RP ability, and you can the take necessary precautions.
If you memorize the protection spell because you (not your character) knows what's coming next... that... would be metagaming.
Using your out of character memory of ingame knowledge and events for the sole purpose of defeating anything, is metagaming, and therefore cheese because the necessary logic jumps are not present to make proper conclusions based on ingame information.
so based on that, any time you get defeated and have to reload, you are meta-gaming. Simply because you know what is coming and are acting differently?
No, I get what you are saying. And to a point I agree. However, I still stand on the "Anything that makes it a zero effort win but gives loads of XP" qualifies as cheese "In my book".
The robe of Vecna is only cheese if you have ToB installed...otherwise it was a just a REALLY nice robe, not restricted by alignment, and allowing you to actually get off some of those ridiculously long cast time spells that require melee range. It costs 25% more then a Robe of Archmagi does, so even price-wise it's quite fair, for SoA.
Should it be a little harder to acquire? Perhaps, maybe dropping off Shangalar or Kangaxx, rather then merely being bought...but I digress.
It's only when you can combine it with IA, that it becomes cheesy. That 1 spell per round limit massively holds back it's power....and technically, IA doesn't even work correctly (compared to the PnP version)...it's supposed to decrease the cast time of all 9th and lower spells (10th level are supposed to have their own page in the spell book, seen below) by 5, to a minimum of 1, and that's it, though it's also supposed to last for 1d4 rounds +1/3 levels. And technically, there should be a lesser version at lvl 4 that reduces speeds by 2 to a minimum 1 for 3rd and lower and Aclarity at 7th level that reduces cast speeds by 3 to minimum of 1 for 6th and lower.
@ZanathKariashi. I agree that Vecna's robe should be alignment restricted. After all, look who created it. I also agree that it should have to be a 'Find' rather than a purchase. It is an artifact after all.
Or perhaps they should look at the under mechanics problem. Spell-casting speed should never drop below 1...that's the absolute minimum in PnP....while some effects are fine with a cast speed of 0 (spells applied by activated Contingencies and sequencers and such), no item or spell should be able to reduce cast speeds below 1, which reigns in some of that power, since you couldn't unload a whole page of spells, even under IA. Well..I suppose you could, but it would take most of the round to do so, rather then most of your spellbook immediately at the beginning of the round.
Comments
SCS removes huge amount of cheese from the game by making the enemies smart enough that you can no longer abuse poor AI. For example enemies cry for help, being 1 inch in fog of war doesn't make them deaf-blind, enemies don't run after single target until they die etc.
Undead are immune to a lot of effect so they can shred basilisks, sirens, etc. They enjoy all these immunities when fighting you as well. I don't see the cheese. Moreover, the sole re ason Korax can join your party is so you can use him against the basilisks. When the developers took a very unusual step for the sole and express purpose of giving players a basilisk-immune weapon in the basilisk area, how is that cheesy? It is a consistent game mechanic and intended by the developers.
Some of the projected image/wish combinations (particularly wish rest) are things I don't think the developers ever intended and so I can see a strong argument for them being cheese given their power and that they are really exploiting a loophole rather than using something as intended.
Calling protection from petrification cheese is like calling protection from lightning cheese when you go against an opponent utilizing lightning attacks. I just don't see it.
If the question is subjective then we can't really find general rules. The exception to this might be "if it feels too cheesy then don't do it".
To me cheese vs. non-cheese has a lot to do with not working as intended vs. working as intended. Here is what I consider cheese and non-cheese:
Anything that exploits poor programming such as repeatedly imprisoning/freedom a strong enemy for endless experience or walling in Drizzt or repeatedly selling/stealing a valuable item to shadow thieves for endless gold is cheese. Previously I didn't consider this cheesy. Or if I did I was actually proud that I found these loopholes :P.
save/load is a grey area to me. I think the rule of thumb here is do it as many times as you feel like. If it starts to feel cheesy then rethink whether or not you want to keep doing it as much as you have.
Exploiting bad AI is cheesy. Such as leaving/entering the room to get that lich to fire all his spells before combat begins is cheese. Using protection from undead vs. liches is to me not cheese. Granted it does make the encounter a lot easier but it is a spell designed to help against a specific type of enemies so why wouldn't you use it? I know some people feel the prot against undead is cheese but I feel that calling it cheese is very harsh considering I'm using the spell as intended.
It becomes more complex when we are talking about powerful items and/or powerful spells. To me using items/spells for their obvious intended purpose is not cheese. Stacking spells/items in specific ways to obtain something that was clearly a mistake is cheese.
Stacking fire resistance so that you can heal by fireball is funny and not really cheesy in my book. They didn't have to program it so that you would get healed by it but they did which leads me to believe that it is working as intended.
The wish (Sleep) trick might be working as intended but it is very doubtful and thus I call it cheese.
Using the shield of balduran is non-cheese in my book. Just because an item is powerful doesn't make it cheese. You are using it as intended.
Shield of mirroring vs. beholders is non-cheese in my book. I cannot believe that the programmers put that piece of equipment in the game without realizing that it would be used against the beholders so it is working as intended.
Just my 2 cents. Your opinion may vary.
I also prefer to kill Kangaxx with a mage+Keldorn and his Carsomyr - I usually cast some Magic Protection spells on my mage including the most important Spell Immunity spell to counter Imprisonment's school of magic (Abjuration) and then move in Keldorn behind the mage. Since Kangaxx is aggroed on the mage Keldorn can pound him to death with Carsomyr, finished by the same Ring of Ram, the mage usually helps out with Melf's Minute Meteors.
What I personally consider cheesy but love to exploit is Cloudkill wand:
In vanilla BG2 you can dispatch whole Beholders lair by spamming Cloudkill from wands and then running for the exit - usually no beholder survives that long to follow you.
It also works very well on illithid - cast cloudkill into the room with illithids and then slam the door in front of you quickly. These doors in illithid lairs almost seem to be put there deliberately to practice this exploit. They also help prepare the road full of traps for illithids who follow you.
@Darkcloud The sad part is...Kangaxx and the other Demi-lich are actually MUCH weaker then they're supposed to be.
@AHF Actually, that use of cloudkill is completely legit...the poison cloud itself isn't magical at all, It's an invocation effect, meaning the cloud is being called to that location by magic, but isn't actually magical itself (technically web is supposed to work the same way, but I can't remember if it does in-game or not). If the target isn't immune to poison, it's vulnerable to the cloud, regardless of any other defenses it may possess.
If anti-magic field was available, you could drop it on a cloudkill, and the cloud would disperse based on the ambient wind speed, but wouldn't just disappear instantly. The invocation merely brings it to that location and keeps it from dispersing from the affected area till the spell ends.
Wish resting is legit...otherwise it wouldn't be a possible option. And you're not even guaranteed to get it, even with 25 int/wis.
Project Image abuse and Mislead abuse are completely separate issues, and go WAY beyond cheese, they're flat out broken mechanics.
Projected image is just supposed to be the origin of your spells, and any spells it casts are used up from your stock...currently broken.
Mislead is just a plain improved invisibility spell and also summons an illusion that can be used as a distraction...your invisibility status should not have anything to do with the illusion, or vice versa...the illusion lasts until it's destroyed, dispelled, or it's duration runs out...while your improved invisibility lasts until dispelled, it runs out, or you take any action that would drop invisibility after which you get 4 rounds of partial invisibility as appropriate for improved invisibility...and that is it. Currently broken as well.
Also bard images (from Project image or Mislead) shouldn't be able to sing. Well..they can APPEAR to sing, but the song shouldn't actually do anything, since they aren't real and have no real abilities.
Simulacrum on the other hand are mostly legit, as they're temporary, weaker copies of the character, and can indeed take any actions the original could at their adjusted level. The only exception is equipped gear which is only supposed to to appear to the same, but actually be cheap copies with none of the actual abilities,..like a longsword +2 would appear to be the longsword +2, but only hit as a plain longsword. Or he could appear to be wearing the Robe of Vecna, but not have any of it's abilities.
I agree with all the rest of your post.
making him your bitch by playing the great magic metagame: awesomeness
(how nice of you to have dispels and infinity imprisonments, go meet my little friend, spell immunity: abjuration. oh, you can cast fears? resist fear. stun? freedom of movement. instant death spells? death ward.)
setting traps where enemies will miraculously appear: cheap as hell
baiting mr. oh so badass dragon into a time trap and murdering him in the most humiliating way possible: [diabolical laughter]
using mislead/backstabs, project image exploits (or just the spell itself in my book), firing cloudkills under an enemy that can't hit back and goddamn rest until healed pretty much turn you into a 2$ hooker, sorry.
against beholders... yeah, the shield is fine. it's OP as hell, but once something start throwing around irresistible dispels, fair play is off the table.
I get that protection from undead is very powerful against him and I'd be all for a revision of the spell so that it might stop working after an initial attack or maybe that Gax as an intelligent undead gets a save (or both) but I believe it is fairplay because nothing in the game seem to indicate that something is wrong (except the sheer power of the spell).
On the cloudkill wand? I never realized that it circumvented magic resistance. How can you not know that this is not working as intended? A wand is supposed to cast a spell using your talent but stored energy. The spell from the wand should be identical to the normal spell cloudkill and if you knew that you were circumventing magic resistance then please don't make up excuses. You are of course perfectly free to keep using this trick but trying to tell us that it isn't cheese? Come on!
I mean, each individual can make up his or hers own rules and play with it, fun is all that matter in single player.
Cheese is a issue in MMORPG where YOUR unfair exploit espoils other people's fun.
One does not simply "define cheese", in a Baldurs Gate game . . . .
I honestly got tired of repeating the same thing so I recently installed SCS II and other mods and man the game is new, fun and challening again :P
so yeah, if you're playing a fighter/mage or FMT, you'll basically have to fill your lvl 5 slots with these, and only these. and it's awesome.
I don't mean to be rude, but how do you not see a difference in game? Have you played through TOB using the cloudkill spell and the wand against magic resistant creatures? This is a reasonably well known bug.
Some links:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/51768984 http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/threads/killing-spell-casters-and-monsters-with-spell-ability.76084/ http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3248/pathetic-ways-of-leveling-up/p2 Now for real testing. Just loaded up BG2. And here we go:
Viconia - 100% magic resistance
Mazzy - 0% magic resistance
Spell: 10 rounds of damage to Mazzy; 10 rounds of no damage to Viconia. Text? "Viconia: Magic Resistance"
Wand: 10 rounds of damage to both Mazzy and Viconia
* * * * *
Now, I thought this could be because of the game you were testing but that doesn't work either. Here is the BG:EE test:
Mage with Polymorph Self:Mold and Cloak of Balduran - 125% magic resistance
Spell: 10 rounds of nothing Text: Charname- Magic Resistance
Wand: 10 rounds of damage
Can you describe the in game circumstance where the cloudkill spell bypasses magic resistance? I have never seen it in either BG2 or BG:EE.
You have to remember, when you played the game the first time and how difficult the game was.
My first encounter with Kangaxx was a mess!
first round: My whole Party was imprisoned (i never was a fan of using scrolls of Protection from undead/Magic)
second round: Try to throw in as many summoned Creatures as possible and kill him, while he imprison every bear and wolf arround him.
Result: My whole Party imprisoned
third round: try it again, he was near death
result: My hole Pary imprisoned
okay, searching my Spellbook for better Spells protection or weap....you know what i'll be back you son of a......
And then you have a mage with a full Spellbook (i.E.) and you can protect yourself against every single source out there in bg. How damn rewarding it was to kick his ass finally as you've learned, that Spell immunity worked against Imprisonment (i was a newbie, before i was a metagamer ;-)).
And that all before tob!
It only becomes cheesy because most of you have played the game several times (i think about 10 times and more :-D).
Items like Robe of Vecna or any high level ability (High level Traps, improved alacrity, greater whirlwind) or +6 Weapons that grant 50% MR and so on are all cheesy. Especcially for SoA. And you know why?
They are supposed to be. A level 31-40 Character is a half-god in the D&D-Universe, i guess... so enjoy you're earned power ;-)
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/14620/cloudkill-spell-and-wand-function-differently#latest
For instance, for most of my BG playthroughs I deliberatly haven't picked up the items found in hidden containers (like the ring of wizardry outside the Frienly Arm Inn). My reasoning for this is that you would never have found them were it not for the fact that you looked at a guide/use the tab function (assuming you're playing BGtutu). But I would certainly never tell someone that they're playing the game wrong if they do use these items.
Or if you are playing Icewind dale and you memorize more fire spells and very few Ice Storm spells, is that cheese?
See, in for a penny, in for a pound. There are ways that you can squirm around the problem. At the end of the day, Protection from petrification has extremely limited use. Once you rescue Branwen from petrification, you can assume that there is something around that will do it (and presumably she will tell you what and where). So when exploring that side of the map, I'd have protections prepared. And considering that gives pretty much 100% protection from the beasties, I'd call it a cheese win. Loads of XP for almost no risk. But it is acceptable cheese.
All my opinion.
If you memorize the protection spell because you (not your character) knows what's coming next... that... would be metagaming.
Using your out of character memory of ingame knowledge and events for the sole purpose of defeating anything, is metagaming, and therefore cheese because the necessary logic jumps are not present to make proper conclusions based on ingame information.
No, I get what you are saying. And to a point I agree. However, I still stand on the "Anything that makes it a zero effort win but gives loads of XP" qualifies as cheese "In my book".
Should it be a little harder to acquire? Perhaps, maybe dropping off Shangalar or Kangaxx, rather then merely being bought...but I digress.
It's only when you can combine it with IA, that it becomes cheesy. That 1 spell per round limit massively holds back it's power....and technically, IA doesn't even work correctly (compared to the PnP version)...it's supposed to decrease the cast time of all 9th and lower spells (10th level are supposed to have their own page in the spell book, seen below) by 5, to a minimum of 1, and that's it, though it's also supposed to last for 1d4 rounds +1/3 levels. And technically, there should be a lesser version at lvl 4 that reduces speeds by 2 to a minimum 1 for 3rd and lower and Aclarity at 7th level that reduces cast speeds by 3 to minimum of 1 for 6th and lower.