If my previous posts were seen as telling people how to play the game then I apologize. I never want to dictate to others how to play a game that I'm not actively participating in. But it does irk me a little when someone tries to tell me that it isn't cheese using a wand of cloudkill specifically against magic immune (resistant) creatures because you can then get around their immunity. The reasoning "it is only immitating a spell ability. It isn't really the spell. The cloud is being summoned because it is a conjuration thingy....." is not enough to remove the fact that it is cheese. By all means use it as much as you want. But please stop trying to tell us that using something that is so clearly an error isn't cheese.
If my previous posts were seen as telling people how to play the game then I apologize. I never want to dictate to others how to play a game that I'm not actively participating in. But it does irk me a little when someone tries to tell me that it isn't cheese using a wand of cloudkill specifically against magic immune (resistant) creatures because you can then get around their immunity. The reasoning "it is only immitating a spell ability. It isn't really the spell. The cloud is being summoned because it is a conjuration thingy....." is not enough to remove the fact that it is cheese. By all means use it as much as you want. But please stop trying to tell us that using something that is so clearly an error isn't cheese.
As noted above, the bug has been flagged by the developers and it is going to be closed so at least the cloudkill wand won't be an error for the EE versions.
@Lifat. Ok, that is REAL cheese. Using an engine bug to get around a problem. It is like casting invisibility on a party member and having them stand in a doorway while the rest of the party stands in the other room pelting the monster with arrows.
As noted above, the bug has been flagged by the developers and it is going to be closed so at least the cloudkill wand won't be an error for the EE versions.
I was thinking about Cloudkill spell, do you know that it has no saving throw? It says here on page 213: http://www.scribd.com/doc/76828432/AD-D-Player’s-Handbook-2nd-Edition-revised-TSR-2159 And in d20 rules there is no spell resistance against it: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm So it has no saving throw and does poison damage to living beings as a vapor. So maybe to consider it as non-cheese is maybe to think that the wizard evokes the vapors into existence, however the vapors themselves are not magical (like a bad case of fart ), therefore can do damage to spell immune, but not natural poison damage immune creatures? But anyways, it was still buggy in BG2 because it damaged everyone, even golems. And it was very good against golems. I suppose I'll have to revert to the other tactic of pelting them with Melf's minute meteors in BG2:EE. Btw, in vanilla BG2 this bug was fixed in unofficial BG2Fixpack.
Yeah, one of the guys in our PnP group used to cast CloudKill at least once a gaming session. One time the DM failed his saving throw. It wasn't pretty.
Technically, it's caster version of the spell that's bugged (well..and golems not being immune to poison damage which they all are).
Since the PnP description specifically says Magic resistance doesn't work against it since the cloud itself isn't magical, nor does holding ones breath prevent the death effect or damage. Though it does allow a saving throw. It's supposed to say Special for it's save, not none. Creatures with less then 4+1 HD are slain instantly with no save, Creatures with 4+1 to 5+1 HD save vs poison at -4 or die, and surviving creatures or those 6 HD or above must leave the cloud or suffer 1d10 poison damage per round with no save.
(I've noticed that in game, it's allowing a saving throw that reduces the poison damage to 1, when successful)
and those 6 HD or above must leave the cloud or suffer 1d10 poison damage per round with no save.
So, basically, yea - leave the cloud or get damaged anyway. And since you can cast it many times so that enemies have nowhere to go..yep, not much of a saving throw.
Since enemies don't leave the cloud in vanilla BG, a cloud that ignored magic resistance would be a serious balance issue. Until they script enemies to leave the area of an AOE persistent spell, they need to keep this bug.
If you notice, it is the same with the other cloud spells that bypass magic resistance in D20 (Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Incendiary Cloud, etc.).
They have made tons of other changes to the 2nd edition spells I don't really think we can use the 2nd edition as the rules. If the BG version of the spell is supposed to be blocked by magic resistance then it is a bug that the wand isn't.
In the Dungeon Crawl mod, there was a nice Beholder who was a cheese merchant and aficionado of all things cheese along with a very amicable Liche with a penchant for teas.
@Lifat: wand of cloudkill is only mildly painful, I've stumbled upon a long-winded comment somewhere about why mislead-backstab is all well and good, and within the spirit of the game.
coincidentally, it was the same day when I started working on a device that allows people to be stabbed in the the neck with a fountain-pen through tcp/ip.
@Lifat: wand of cloudkill is only mildly painful, I've stumbled upon a long-winded comment somewhere about why mislead-backstab is all well and good, and within the spirit of the game.
coincidentally, it was the same day when I started working on a device that allows people to be stabbed in the the neck with a fountain-pen through tcp/ip.
Ha! Mislead/backstab is such a huge abuse. It doesn't make it wrong if someone enjoys it (that is why God Mode was invented) but not acknowledging the cheese would be pretty tough to stomach.
Cheesing and Cheating both mean using something the opponent is unable to use even if he had access to. Thus getting an unfair advantage. A cheese isnt a specific item or a tactic, its using something the others dont.
Using the protection of undead on Kangaxx isnt cheesy because it negates all his attacks, its cheesy because Kangaxx will never cast a scroll of protection of living, such a scroll doesnt even exist. Dropping dumped party members near Drizzt is cheesy because even if he could call his party, he wouldnt drop them on you. If he could, it would be a legit tactic, and not even a good one, sacrificing four party member to block one. Backstabbing Drizzt to death is cheesy because there is noone in the game backstabbing to death us. This sounds counterintuitive, but think about it, if there would be a dedicated backstabber somewhere in the world, it would be Drizzt's choice and fault not to know and not to protect againt such an assault.
One will quickly realize that pretty much everything beyond plain melee attacks in bg counts as cheese, because they simply dont do much, short of occasional magic missile. Thus the uncertainty, there is simply too much cheese in the game. Stick to swords and lvl1 spells and youll never use that word again.
@Roller12 With all due respect I find your way of defining cheese horrible.
Why is it cheese to use your class and/or items for their clearly intended purpose? To me cheese is when you go against what is intended by the developers. I think most people define cheese the way I do it but disagree on what is and what isn't intended.
Why is it cheese to use your class and/or items for their clearly intended purpose?
Why is a man hitting a woman considered dishonorable, even though he is made stronger, thus expected to win? And does the man ask his "developer" for intentions or even care? Why should anyone else.
Also, a cloudkill wand has spelllike abilities, wands have separate saves, they arent classified as spells. One may see them as too powerful or buggy, but they do not fit the definition of cheese because they are part of the game, everyone has access to. What makes them cheesy is blocking a door with an invisible character and spam the room with fireballs. Doesnt really matter which type of the wand it is, doesnt it? The wand itself doesnt matter only the way it is used.
Also, a cloudkill wand has spelllike abilities, wands have separate saves, they arent classified as spells. One may see them as too powerful or buggy, but they do not fit the definition of cheese because they are part of the game, everyone has access to. What makes them cheesy is blocking a door with an invisible character and spam the room with fireballs. Doesnt really matter which type of the wand it is, doesnt it? The wand itself doesnt matter only the way it is used.
No. Every wand in the game is a form of magic. The wand is bugged - which is acknowledged by the developers - so that it bypasses magic resistance (unlike other wands). The use of a bug that changes the balance of the game -- allowing golems and the like to be destroyed by a cloudkill wand -- is cheesy.
It is also cheesy to take advantage of a bad AI or pathfind which leaves the characters not leaving the room or taking some other action when blocked by an invisible character, etc. because that is abusing the limitations on the game mechanic in a very unrealistic way.
It is not unrealistic for a thief to backstab. They are designed that way and expected to behave that way.
Even using your standard (one with which I disagree), thieves target you with backstabs several times in the game, both in BG1 and BG2. For example, after you have beat Durlag's tower and arrive back in Ulgoth's Beard there are several rogues who are already invisible/hidden when you arrive and who backstab your characters. By your own standard this is non-cheesy since it happens in the game world.
Abusing bugs is an exploit, not a cheese. The AI.. it is working as good as it was possible, although certainly not intended, You think they intended to create a bad AI and pathfinding? xS They made it as good as time allowed them. Its not cheesy because its bad, it is cheesy because Drizzt, or anyone else in the game arent running around at his super speed shooting arrows at us, although he certainty could. Thus making it a tactic, only available to the player, making it unique to the gameworld and "dishonorable".
the only rogues i know who seriously used backstabbing were shadow masters in NWN:hotu and in nwn2.. lots of stuff really. backstabbing really improved in 3ed. (opinion)
cheese: using stuff noone else does exploit: using broken stuff noone else does cheat: using outside help to create stuff noone else does
note the emphasis on "noone else does", the lack of it miraculously transform everything instantly into legit mode! So what if the wand is bugged. Viconia has magic resistance, should the golems use it on her she wouldnt resist it either, so the party is just as liable to that tactic. Thats not cheesy. The problem is, the golems dont use wands.
So yes, if someone in bg1 really hides/rehides until he murders the entire party with backstabs, then i will agree that backstabbing Drizzt not a cheese. Im not aware of such encounters though, at best some guys have some invisibility potions, a one time limited solution, they arent even using their skills.
@Roller12 You're just using circular reasoning. You start off with the assumption that 'Cheating/Exploits/Cheese is when you do X' and then conclude 'Therefore, when you do X, you are Cheating/Using Cheese/Exploits'.
@Roller12 You're just using circular reasoning. You start off with the assumption that 'Cheating/Exploits/Cheese is when you do X' and then conclude 'Therefore, when you do X, you are Cheating/Using Cheese/Exploits'.
Yes. And most of us disagree with those assumptions so the conversation is not very useful but I did think it was worth pointing out a couple of areas of discussion in my previous post even given those assumptions.
When the poster thinks that bugged items that are in the process of being fixed aren't cheese and doesn't know the game well enough to recognize there are some opponents that backstab, then there probably isn't much point in continuing the discussion even in the context of those assumptions because the gulf between my baseline and his/her baseline is just too large and the rationale is too rigid.
Why is it cheese to use your class and/or items for their clearly intended purpose?
To further expand on this point. While using, for example, your berserker's rage to have negative plane protection when fighting vampires isn't intrinsically "cheese", the problem is that the AI can't react properly to it. Vampires should probably be intelligent enough to notice you're protected from their attacks, and run away, only coming back when your berserker is winded. Actually, any intelligent enemy should be able to. But then, wouldn't that be considered cheese from their part?
People have also mentioned the mislead+backstab abuse. Anyone who has played with Rogue Rebalancing and sided with Bohdi has seen what how cheesy that combination is (and don't get me started on the thieves with dozens of potions of invisibility and healing, playing hit and run on your characters). Cheese is not limited to your party, sadly.
@Roller12. I really gotta disagree with you on the whole backstabbing thing. In the first place, I "think" there are some battles in BG2 where the players can get stabbed in the back. I could be wrong on that, but even if there isn't, the presence alone of the ability doesn't make it cheese. For the simple reason that the game is balanced to include backstab damage.
Also, just because a player uses a 'Dishonorable' tactic, is not any reason to call it cheese. Not all characters are honorable. Not all people are honorable. And there is nothing in the game that suggests, requires or even hints at the Charname being honorable (even if the voice set says that sometimes). Backstabbing may be dishonorable. So what?
If you are going to put it up there that "If you can use something that your opponents can't use against you" then just about every single element in the game is cheese. Not all monsters have potions or scrolls to use. Therefore cheese? Crap. No monster can reload after a defeat. Therefore cheese? hogwash. Absolutely ZERO monsters can scout the area while invisible or cloaked in shadow, therefore cheese? Come on. No monsters can use hit and run tactics. See where this is going? Very few have clerics that can heal other monsters. and I could go on and on.
No monster can reload after a defeat. Therefore cheese? hogwash.
Reloading is there to keep savestates, should the player decide to stop the gaming session. Using it for anything else(for instance getting all 20 rolls) is ofc cheese. It is even ironically played out in ToB, where some enemies to indeed reload after being defeated by the Slayer. If we are truly gonna discuss that reloading until the enemy with negative saves fails the throw and dies of Finger of Death is a legitimate tactics, then i dont think we ever will agree on something. xD
But you are correct, there is lots of bad stuff, thats why it is so difficult to pinpoint the terms in BG, the AI does so little, pretty much everything is cheese. And as i said earlier the only truly honest thing we could do is plain melee. The difference between dishonest and cheesy, is, well, in the first case, the enemy could prepare itself, and in the second case couldnt. Some enemies use scrolls, therefore the mechanics are there, therefore if someone doesnt use scrolls its his fault(or the programmers). But there is no enemy in the game who runs away if he is being consecutively backstabbed, its the very least he could do. Note that mages very well are able and do cast purge invisibility etc, therefore backstabbing mages isnt cheese. Pretty ironic.
@Roller12 You're just using circular reasoning. You start off with the assumption that 'Cheating/Exploits/Cheese is when you do X' and then conclude 'Therefore, when you do X, you are Cheating/Using Cheese/Exploits'.
Then you have missed the point. Im actually saying that there are no exploits or cheese. Only equal access counts.
When the poster thinks that bugged items that are in the process of being fixed aren't cheese and doesn't know the game well enough to recognize there are some opponents that backstab, then there probably isn't much point in continuing the discussion even in the context of those assumptions because the gulf between my baseline and his/her baseline is just too large and the rationale is too rigid.
Thats why we are having the discussion, to attempt to teach you the correct definitions. For instance, regardless of anything, not every bugged item is cheese and not every cheesy tactic is bugged, as you seem to believe. For example broken items are bugged, but not cheese, and reloading is not bugged, but cheesy.
You have to reload, when your entire party gets killed....why is that cheesy? or are we talking about i.E. casting doom/greater Mallison/Finger of death on Firkraag -> sv vs. death = reload and try again?
I think tactics like casting cloudkill into the fog of war because you've scouted the area or you know there are enemies and waiting that the poison kill them because they're not chasing after you is cheese. I fight every fight as i would do in a real combatsituation. No runaway or lurking around or kiting enemies to seperate them from the group. So fighting Sarevok means to fight against Sarevok, Tazok, Angelo and Semaj all at once. Using a poor ai for your advantag is cheese. Holding back your fighters because if they rush in the battle the whole group of enemies will turn aganist you, or the dragon will attack and step out of your AoE-spell is cheese. Level up to lvl 5 and then recruiting NPS because they will start with level 6 is cheese. when fighting against mages, it is cheese to make yourself invisible and wait for their protectionspells to run out.
@Roller12, yeah, we are going to seriously disagree on quite a lot of stuff. My comment about 'Reloading' referred to anyone at all who doesn't play ironman. I will correct you by saying that "Save Games" are designed in case you want to stop playing. I will even go so far as to say that the game auto saves you when you enter/leave "Important" areas SO THAT you can reload if you get borked. But 'Reloading' upon defeat has absolutely zero to do with that other than the fact that you are reloading a previous saved game. And to be clear, "I" am not saying that reloading is cheese. I am saying that based on your own reasoning, 'Reloading' would be considered cheese. And by your own admission, you think it is. I don't. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it was always INTENDED to be a legitimate tactic. In short, your logic needs another once over.
I am also going to seriously disagree with you in your statement "the only truly honest thing we could do is plain melee". Um. Absolutely NO! BG is one of THE most tactical games on the market even today. The combat system includes more than simply melee. Spells have strategic impact on combat. Stealth is an invaluable tool. And different approaches (particularly in the later parts of BG2 and ToB) are key to solving different problems in the game. If all you are getting out of the game is straight melee, you are seriously missing out on 90% or more of the wonder that is the BG series. Now, is the AI WONDERFUL? No. But I'd say it is at least strategically challenging. And I would probably put it up against most stuff out today from the simple perspective of the sheer variety of things that are available in the game.
But then your entire school of thought surrounding Backstabbing suggests that you have an extremely narrow viewpoint on the subject of tactics. Which is fine. For you. Not everyone plays that way.
For me, I do not consider it to be Cheese in any way shape or form to drop a slow spell on an enemy and then a cloud kill. Or to sneak into an area to get a general layout of the enemy and then fireball from range to soften them up. I think it is PERFECTLY legitimate to have a thief sneak behind enemy lines and Backstab enemy casters, thus removing them from the equation. And I will often lead off with a silence spell in the midst of enemy lines to prevent errant spells from being cast at my party. I do not consider any of this to be cheese provided I don't use foreknowledge of the encounter that I couldn't have gotten legitimately in game to guide my tactics.
For me, I do not consider it to be Cheese in any way shape or form to drop a slow spell on an enemy and then a cloud kill. Or to sneak into an area to get a general layout of the enemy and then fireball from range to soften them up. I think it is PERFECTLY legitimate to have a thief sneak behind enemy lines and Backstab enemy casters, thus removing them from the equation. And I will often lead off with a silence spell in the midst of enemy lines to prevent errant spells from being cast at my party. I do not consider any of this to be cheese provided I don't use foreknowledge of the encounter that I couldn't have gotten legitimately in game to guide my tactics.
I think you and I are closer on these subjects. Where I see some of these crossing from tactics to cheese is where a bad engine mechanic is abused, such as by repeatedly fireballing from out of view without immobilizing the enemy or leaving the enemy standing still (unaware of your presence) after you dropped a cloudkill spell. Having multiple casters fire silence, slow, cloudkill, grease, etc. from out of view when you have scouted the area and then letting the enemy see you and try to react is 100% legit as far as I am concerned. Leaving an enemy to die in a cloudkill that the enemy could simply leave if behaving rationally (i.e., one of the things SCS addresses) is crossing into cheese. Ascension and the SCS mods are great for improving AI in a lot of these areas and moving closer to a level playing field.
It is bizarre to me to hear the arguments on backstabbing and see that they are premised on enemies not backstabbing when there are enemies that backstab in both BG1 and BG2 and even some scenarios where the enemies have a bunch of invisibility potions that they will use to repeatedly backstab (for example, the fight in the BG2 Temple District for the Celestial Fury katana).
Comments
But it does irk me a little when someone tries to tell me that it isn't cheese using a wand of cloudkill specifically against magic immune (resistant) creatures because you can then get around their immunity. The reasoning "it is only immitating a spell ability. It isn't really the spell. The cloud is being summoned because it is a conjuration thingy....." is not enough to remove the fact that it is cheese. By all means use it as much as you want. But please stop trying to tell us that using something that is so clearly an error isn't cheese.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/76828432/AD-D-Player’s-Handbook-2nd-Edition-revised-TSR-2159
And in d20 rules there is no spell resistance against it:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm
So it has no saving throw and does poison damage to living beings as a vapor. So maybe to consider it as non-cheese is maybe to think that the wizard evokes the vapors into existence, however the vapors themselves are not magical (like a bad case of fart
But anyways, it was still buggy in BG2 because it damaged everyone, even golems. And it was very good against golems. I suppose I'll have to revert to the other tactic of pelting them with Melf's minute meteors in BG2:EE.
Btw, in vanilla BG2 this bug was fixed in unofficial BG2Fixpack.
Since the PnP description specifically says Magic resistance doesn't work against it since the cloud itself isn't magical, nor does holding ones breath prevent the death effect or damage. Though it does allow a saving throw. It's supposed to say Special for it's save, not none. Creatures with less then 4+1 HD are slain instantly with no save, Creatures with 4+1 to 5+1 HD save vs poison at -4 or die, and surviving creatures or those 6 HD or above must leave the cloud or suffer 1d10 poison damage per round with no save.
(I've noticed that in game, it's allowing a saving throw that reduces the poison damage to 1, when successful)
If you notice, it is the same with the other cloud spells that bypass magic resistance in D20 (Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Incendiary Cloud, etc.).
coincidentally, it was the same day when I started working on a device that allows people to be stabbed in the the neck with a fountain-pen through tcp/ip.
Ha! Mislead/backstab is such a huge abuse. It doesn't make it wrong if someone enjoys it (that is why God Mode was invented) but not acknowledging the cheese would be pretty tough to stomach.
Using the protection of undead on Kangaxx isnt cheesy because it negates all his attacks, its cheesy because Kangaxx will never cast a scroll of protection of living, such a scroll doesnt even exist. Dropping dumped party members near Drizzt is cheesy because even if he could call his party, he wouldnt drop them on you. If he could, it would be a legit tactic, and not even a good one, sacrificing four party member to block one. Backstabbing Drizzt to death is cheesy because there is noone in the game backstabbing to death us. This sounds counterintuitive, but think about it, if there would be a dedicated backstabber somewhere in the world, it would be Drizzt's choice and fault not to know and not to protect againt such an assault.
One will quickly realize that pretty much everything beyond plain melee attacks in bg counts as cheese, because they simply dont do much, short of occasional magic missile. Thus the uncertainty, there is simply too much cheese in the game. Stick to swords and lvl1 spells and youll never use that word again.
Why is it cheese to use your class and/or items for their clearly intended purpose? To me cheese is when you go against what is intended by the developers. I think most people define cheese the way I do it but disagree on what is and what isn't intended.
Also, a cloudkill wand has spelllike abilities, wands have separate saves, they arent classified as spells. One may see them as too powerful or buggy, but they do not fit the definition of cheese because they are part of the game, everyone has access to. What makes them cheesy is blocking a door with an invisible character and spam the room with fireballs. Doesnt really matter which type of the wand it is, doesnt it? The wand itself doesnt matter only the way it is used.
It is also cheesy to take advantage of a bad AI or pathfind which leaves the characters not leaving the room or taking some other action when blocked by an invisible character, etc. because that is abusing the limitations on the game mechanic in a very unrealistic way.
It is not unrealistic for a thief to backstab. They are designed that way and expected to behave that way.
Even using your standard (one with which I disagree), thieves target you with backstabs several times in the game, both in BG1 and BG2. For example, after you have beat Durlag's tower and arrive back in Ulgoth's Beard there are several rogues who are already invisible/hidden when you arrive and who backstab your characters. By your own standard this is non-cheesy since it happens in the game world.
Abusing bugs is an exploit, not a cheese. The AI.. it is working as good as it was possible, although certainly not intended, You think they intended to create a bad AI and pathfinding? xS They made it as good as time allowed them. Its not cheesy because its bad, it is cheesy because Drizzt, or anyone else in the game arent running around at his super speed shooting arrows at us, although he certainty could. Thus making it a tactic, only available to the player, making it unique to the gameworld and "dishonorable".
the only rogues i know who seriously used backstabbing were shadow masters in NWN:hotu and in nwn2.. lots of stuff really. backstabbing really improved in 3ed. (opinion)
cheese: using stuff noone else does
exploit: using broken stuff noone else does
cheat: using outside help to create stuff noone else does
note the emphasis on "noone else does", the lack of it miraculously transform everything instantly into legit mode! So what if the wand is bugged. Viconia has magic resistance, should the golems use it on her she wouldnt resist it either, so the party is just as liable to that tactic. Thats not cheesy. The problem is, the golems dont use wands.
So yes, if someone in bg1 really hides/rehides until he murders the entire party with backstabs, then i will agree that backstabbing Drizzt not a cheese. Im not aware of such encounters though, at best some guys have some invisibility potions, a one time limited solution, they arent even using their skills.
You're just using circular reasoning. You start off with the assumption that 'Cheating/Exploits/Cheese is when you do X' and then conclude 'Therefore, when you do X, you are Cheating/Using Cheese/Exploits'.
When the poster thinks that bugged items that are in the process of being fixed aren't cheese and doesn't know the game well enough to recognize there are some opponents that backstab, then there probably isn't much point in continuing the discussion even in the context of those assumptions because the gulf between my baseline and his/her baseline is just too large and the rationale is too rigid.
People have also mentioned the mislead+backstab abuse. Anyone who has played with Rogue Rebalancing and sided with Bohdi has seen what how cheesy that combination is (and don't get me started on the thieves with dozens of potions of invisibility and healing, playing hit and run on your characters). Cheese is not limited to your party, sadly.
Also, just because a player uses a 'Dishonorable' tactic, is not any reason to call it cheese. Not all characters are honorable. Not all people are honorable. And there is nothing in the game that suggests, requires or even hints at the Charname being honorable (even if the voice set says that sometimes). Backstabbing may be dishonorable. So what?
If you are going to put it up there that "If you can use something that your opponents can't use against you" then just about every single element in the game is cheese. Not all monsters have potions or scrolls to use. Therefore cheese? Crap. No monster can reload after a defeat. Therefore cheese? hogwash. Absolutely ZERO monsters can scout the area while invisible or cloaked in shadow, therefore cheese? Come on. No monsters can use hit and run tactics. See where this is going? Very few have clerics that can heal other monsters. and I could go on and on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V-7UwvyVzG4
But you are correct, there is lots of bad stuff, thats why it is so difficult to pinpoint the terms in BG, the AI does so little, pretty much everything is cheese. And as i said earlier the only truly honest thing we could do is plain melee. The difference between dishonest and cheesy, is, well, in the first case, the enemy could prepare itself, and in the second case couldnt. Some enemies use scrolls, therefore the mechanics are there, therefore if someone doesnt use scrolls its his fault(or the programmers). But there is no enemy in the game who runs away if he is being consecutively backstabbed, its the very least he could do. Note that mages very well are able and do cast purge invisibility etc, therefore backstabbing mages isnt cheese. Pretty ironic. Then you have missed the point. Im actually saying that there are no exploits or cheese. Only equal access counts. Thats why we are having the discussion, to attempt to teach you the correct definitions. For instance, regardless of anything, not every bugged item is cheese and not every cheesy tactic is bugged, as you seem to believe. For example broken items are bugged, but not cheese, and reloading is not bugged, but cheesy.
I think tactics like casting cloudkill into the fog of war because you've scouted the area or you know there are enemies and waiting that the poison kill them because they're not chasing after you is cheese.
I fight every fight as i would do in a real combatsituation. No runaway or lurking around or kiting enemies to seperate them from the group. So fighting Sarevok means to fight against Sarevok, Tazok, Angelo and Semaj all at once.
Using a poor ai for your advantag is cheese. Holding back your fighters because if they rush in the battle the whole group of enemies will turn aganist you, or the dragon will attack and step out of your AoE-spell is cheese. Level up to lvl 5 and then recruiting NPS because they will start with level 6 is cheese. when fighting against mages, it is cheese to make yourself invisible and wait for their protectionspells to run out.
I am also going to seriously disagree with you in your statement "the only truly honest thing we could do is plain melee". Um. Absolutely NO! BG is one of THE most tactical games on the market even today. The combat system includes more than simply melee. Spells have strategic impact on combat. Stealth is an invaluable tool. And different approaches (particularly in the later parts of BG2 and ToB) are key to solving different problems in the game. If all you are getting out of the game is straight melee, you are seriously missing out on 90% or more of the wonder that is the BG series. Now, is the AI WONDERFUL? No. But I'd say it is at least strategically challenging. And I would probably put it up against most stuff out today from the simple perspective of the sheer variety of things that are available in the game.
But then your entire school of thought surrounding Backstabbing suggests that you have an extremely narrow viewpoint on the subject of tactics. Which is fine. For you. Not everyone plays that way.
For me, I do not consider it to be Cheese in any way shape or form to drop a slow spell on an enemy and then a cloud kill. Or to sneak into an area to get a general layout of the enemy and then fireball from range to soften them up. I think it is PERFECTLY legitimate to have a thief sneak behind enemy lines and Backstab enemy casters, thus removing them from the equation. And I will often lead off with a silence spell in the midst of enemy lines to prevent errant spells from being cast at my party. I do not consider any of this to be cheese provided I don't use foreknowledge of the encounter that I couldn't have gotten legitimately in game to guide my tactics.
It is bizarre to me to hear the arguments on backstabbing and see that they are premised on enemies not backstabbing when there are enemies that backstab in both BG1 and BG2 and even some scenarios where the enemies have a bunch of invisibility potions that they will use to repeatedly backstab (for example, the fight in the BG2 Temple District for the Celestial Fury katana).