I have to agree with @decado here: how would your PC know that Drizzt is a good guy? You've been living in Candlekeep your whole life, it's unlikely you have much knowledge about the outside world...
The fame issue of Drizzt wasn't the point I was trying to make, in fact that's kind of beside it. he's been active on the surface for about thirty years during the time of BG1, so I'm not sure exactly how known or not he is at that point. It's been ages since I've read those books.
I was saying that he's being ambushed, he calls for help, and after you save him and he shows that he's grateful and non-hostile, you plant a dagger in his back...that's not the move of a 'Good' character. If you are killing him because you want the loot then kill him because you want the loot, just don't dress it up as a heroic act or fortunate accident ;P
The fame issue of Drizzt wasn't the point I was trying to make, in fact that's kind of beside it. he's been active on the surface for about thirty years during the time of BG1, so I'm not sure exactly how known or not he is at that point. It's been ages since I've read those books.
I was saying that he's being ambushed, he calls for help, and after you save him and he shows that he's grateful and non-hostile, you plant a dagger in his back...that's not the move of a 'Good' character. If you are killing him because you want the loot then kill him because you want the loot, just don't dress it up as a heroic act or fortunate accident ;P
I edited the post a bit to expand on that, but the problem with Drizzt goes to an essential theme in D&D, at least at this point of its development - the game is designed in such a way that certain races are assumed to be inextricably bound to certain alignments. To a certain extent, this is a part of BG as well: as far as I know, you never meet any Good gnolls or Illithids. By the same token, whether Drizzt is famous or not (and really, isn't part of his fame both in-universe and out precisely the fact that he's a contradiction?), drow are assumed to be universally evil - your PC doesn't think twice before wiping out a Xvart village, why hesitate with a single drow?
I edited the post a bit to expand on that, but the problem with Drizzt goes to an essential theme in D&D, at least at this point of its development - the game is designed in such a way that certain races are assumed to be inextricably bound to certain alignments. To a certain extent, this is a part of BG as well: as far as I know, you never meet any Good gnolls or Illithids. By the same token, whether Drizzt is famous or not (and really, isn't part of his fame both in-universe and out precisely the fact that he's a contradiction?), drow are assumed to be universally evil - your PC doesn't think twice before wiping out a Xvart village, why hesitate with a single drow?
I do get what you're saying and I agree with it to a point. 99.9%, see drow, kill drow before drow kills you. I just find the situation lends itself to where you can't take the high ground in killing him, even if you have no clue who in the hell he is supposed to be.
Man, I'm going to sound like a Salvatore fanboy soon, but it reminds me of the old short story he did with the good goblin and the townsfolk who hung him because he was a goblin, not because he did anything wrong. I just don't get behind that way of thinking on Good characters.
I have a feeling that most people who use that justification to kill Drizzt don't butcher Viconia on sight.
Well... I imagine most people who have to justify killing Drizzt at all wouldn't recruit Viconia in the first place. Or if they did, Ajantis or Kivan would end up killing her anyway...
I do get what you're saying and I agree with it to a point. 99.9%, see drow, kill drow before drow kills you. I just find the situation lends itself to where you can't take the high ground in killing him, even if you have no clue who in the hell he is supposed to be.
Man, I'm going to sound like a Salvatore fanboy soon, but it reminds me of the old short story he did with the good goblin and the townsfolk who hung him because he was a goblin, not because he did anything wrong. I just don't get behind that way of thinking on Good characters.
Oh, I know exactly what you mean. I think it's a sign of how the fantasy genre and its readers have evolved over time - we prefer complexity, psychological depth and individuality, to the extent that contemporary fantasy stories like Ari Marmell's "The Goblin Corps" or Rich Burlew's "The Order of the Stick" go to great lengths to subvert the whole race/alignment fallacy.
BG just happens to be an artifact of an earlier period. I mean, Ajantis is arguably the most moral and pure-hearted NPC in the game, and he'll kill Viconia just because she's a drow if you have them both in your party. And - perhaps most significantly - nothing happens to him as a result, he isn't punished by his deity for committing what basically amounts to unprovoked murder. She's a drow, so it doesn't matter if she's helping you: she has to die.
@shawne - Ajantis does not attack Viconia (of all people).
The illithid in the Black Pits could count as neutral. He isn't friendly to your party while enslaved, but once he is free, he does not attack you and specificially says he doesn't because he is grateful. If he was truly evil, he'd mind control your minmaxed level cap 3 intelligence berzerker and see that he gets the most out of the situation (aka the other merchants and the magical items all of them have at that point). Evil is self serving, and just saying "thanks, hero, cya" isn't.
Someone who kills Drizzt for his gear and finds a roleplay reason for that will also find one to keep Miss Magic Resistance around. But alas, this is not my battlefield; I usually play evil and don't need to find reasons for either.
@KidCarnival: To my understanding, there's a random chance that Ajantis will attack any party member of evil alignment (admittedly, this is data based on the original BG1 so I don't know if it made the transition to the EE), but the point still stands - this is a conflict that emerges because of who the characters are rather than what they do. A counterexample would be the Dynaheir/Minsc/Edwin conflict, which is all about personal motivations: Edwin wants to kill Dynaheir not because she's from Rashemen but because he's been ordered to do so by his superiors; Minsc's desire to protect Dynaheir motivates him to provoke Edwin.
As for the illithid: as you said, evil is self-serving, and that mind flayer just watched your party defeat Baeloth (and, barring exploits, that beholder as well). Not attacking you is simple self-preservation at that point.
@shawne - I read that Viconia is, for reasons no-one can even begin to guess, is the only evil NPC without the chance of attack by Ajantis, despite being the most obviously evil (simply by race, to a paladin). I would think that was an oversight and not done intentionally. It makes zero sense he would rather attack a chilled dwarf whose only "crime" is to strive for money than a drow who doesn't even have the Drizzt factor (actively working against the evil and prejudice).
As I said in some other topic, I consider it a roleplay exploit, if such a thing exists, to force group NPCs that are clearly not meant to be in the same party. All the little tricks in what order to recruit them are just that; exploiting the mechanics to get around (subtle) restrictions. Alignments already mean so little, therefore I see it as a roleplay way to balance it and give them at least some meaning.
If you think about it, Minsc has no reason to *provoke* someone who wants to kill his witch. Alignment-wise, it would be Edwin's job to make an attempt to kill Dynaheir before Minsc tries to protect her. As it is, the two enemies will stay in a party without fighting if Minsc isn't present - the best situation for Edwin to take advantage of. I fail to see the logic in that.
I found this while browsing with google. According to the rules it shouldn't be subject to magic resistance, but is.
Detect Evil You would be surprised what is Evil in BGII; just about everything. Still, knowing this in advance does not give you much advantages. Doing quests for people you know are Evil is still worthwhile. Oh, and you usually get to kill them afterwards anyway. Paladins get loads of this for free.
A more useful side effect of this spell is its "life scan" property. It will give you a listing of all Evil or magic resistant creatures in the area, giving you an indication of what is still left to go.
Casting Time: 9. Range: Self. Radius: The whole map.
This spell is erroneously subject to magic resistance. Get the fix from Baldurdash.
@KidCarnival: Like I said, it's up for interpretation. The way I read it, Minsc is hyper-protective of Dynaheir, to the point where he goes berserk in-game if something happens to her. It makes sense to me that he would take a more proactive, provocative approach, while - if left to his own devices - Edwin would prefer to bide his time.
@shawne - Guess that comes with having a berzerker as bodyguard, so your point does make sense for Minsc. It's still not logical that Edwin wouldn't take the chance and try to kill her if her bodyguard is *not* around, all through the game. The other Red Wizards tell him to not take too long, so there seems to be a certain peer pressure, too. From what I read, he will also stay in a party with Neera, despite her quest. It just doesn't fit that he would pass on the opportunity to raise in ranks by killing Dynaheir and/or Neera.
I found this while browsing with google. According to the rules it shouldn't be subject to magic resistance, but is.
Detect Evil You would be surprised what is Evil in BGII; just about everything. Still, knowing this in advance does not give you much advantages. Doing quests for people you know are Evil is still worthwhile. Oh, and you usually get to kill them afterwards anyway. Paladins get loads of this for free.
A more useful side effect of this spell is its "life scan" property. It will give you a listing of all Evil or magic resistant creatures in the area, giving you an indication of what is still left to go.
Casting Time: 9. Range: Self. Radius: The whole map.
This spell is erroneously subject to magic resistance. Get the fix from Baldurdash.
It looks like the developers of BGEE do not agree on this being a bug as not only it was implemented on purpose, but they've even applied a fix to make magic resistance more effective in preventing the "Detect Evil" spell from working.
I guess this is open to interpretation. I found the spell in a pathfinder manual and it said there is no saving throw and no magic resistance check. This is what's in the core manual though and it doesn't say one way or the other.
"Detect Evil (Divination) Reversible Range: 0Components: V, S Duration: 5 rds./levelCasting Time: 2 Area of Effect: 10 x 180 ft.Saving Throw: None This spell discovers emanations of evil (or of good in the case of the reverse spell) from any creature, object, or area. Character alignment is not revealed under most circumstances: Characters who are strongly aligned, do not stray from their faith, and who are at least 9th level might radiate good or evil if they are intent upon appropriate actions. Powerful monsters, such as ki-rin, send forth emanations of evil or good, even if polymorphed. Aligned undead radiate evil, for it is this power and negative force that enables them to continue existing. An evilly cursed object or unholy water radiates evil, but a hidden trap or an unintelligent viper does not. The degree of evil (faint, moderate, strong, overwhelming) can be noted. Note that priests have a more powerful version of this spell. The spell has a path of detection 10 feet wide and 60 yards long in the direction in which the wizard is facing. The wizard must concentrate--stop, have quiet, and intently seek to detect the aura--for at least one round to receive a reading."
From a RP vantage, I still find it difficult to kill Drizzt if I'm good aligned even if he is a drow. Drow would be understandably kill-on-sight for most Sword Coast surface dwelling humanoid races (and subterranean dwarves)--including those who are good aligned. The drow are a monster race, and they are heinously evil notwithstanding the anomoly of the legendary Drizzt. In the Drizzt encounter, the dialogue options that could reflect guardedness because he is a drow do make it fair enough to kill him, though. It's my own metagame knowledge that makes it tough, I guess.
@KidCarnival: Well, bear in mind that despite his intelligence, Edwin doesn't always make smart choices - a trait he carries into the next game as well.
In PnP using any sort of alignment detecting spell without permission is extremely insulting and very bad etiquette. In some cases doing this is sufficient grounds to be attacked.
I use detect evil a lot with a Paladin I've been playing in BGEE. I'd imagine if a character attacked me for casting detect evil then they are probably evil and deserve to die. Either way it will be revealed. Viconia has 60ish magic resistance and I was able to detect her as evil. I'm not sure if the magic resistance check works at all.
@shawne - Well, it wouldn't be exactly the smartest thing to attack Dynaheir (or Neera) even without their bodyguards. It would be somewhat impulsive and highly selfish.
@UnknownQuantity - If I cast Detect Evil as a Priest of Talos, I detect my entire party and myself. Including Baeloth, with 50 % natural resistance and items bringing it up to 75 %. It must come as a shocking revelation to find out your own true nature that way.
Comments
I was saying that he's being ambushed, he calls for help, and after you save him and he shows that he's grateful and non-hostile, you plant a dagger in his back...that's not the move of a 'Good' character. If you are killing him because you want the loot then kill him because you want the loot, just don't dress it up as a heroic act or fortunate accident ;P
Man, I'm going to sound like a Salvatore fanboy soon, but it reminds me of the old short story he did with the good goblin and the townsfolk who hung him because he was a goblin, not because he did anything wrong. I just don't get behind that way of thinking on Good characters.
BG just happens to be an artifact of an earlier period. I mean, Ajantis is arguably the most moral and pure-hearted NPC in the game, and he'll kill Viconia just because she's a drow if you have them both in your party. And - perhaps most significantly - nothing happens to him as a result, he isn't punished by his deity for committing what basically amounts to unprovoked murder. She's a drow, so it doesn't matter if she's helping you: she has to die.
The illithid in the Black Pits could count as neutral. He isn't friendly to your party while enslaved, but once he is free, he does not attack you and specificially says he doesn't because he is grateful. If he was truly evil, he'd mind control your minmaxed level cap 3 intelligence berzerker and see that he gets the most out of the situation (aka the other merchants and the magical items all of them have at that point). Evil is self serving, and just saying "thanks, hero, cya" isn't.
Someone who kills Drizzt for his gear and finds a roleplay reason for that will also find one to keep Miss Magic Resistance around. But alas, this is not my battlefield; I usually play evil and don't need to find reasons for either.
As for the illithid: as you said, evil is self-serving, and that mind flayer just watched your party defeat Baeloth (and, barring exploits, that beholder as well). Not attacking you is simple self-preservation at that point.
Actually, Drizzt has only 98% magic resistance
Luckily for us his magic resistance is useless against "Detect Alignment with NI"
I wonder why he doesn't just have 100 % magic resistance.
It looks like the developers are teasing us with this very slim chance
An evil Drow can join the team...
...
Think that covers it... No neutral Drow out there?
@wild
Actually yes, but both cleric/druid/paladin all can detect evil at level 1 and it has no saving throw or magic resistance check.
Are you sure about that?
If I'm reading NI correctly "Detect Evil" should not bypass magic resistance as the following flag is set:
Dispel/Not bypass resistance (1)
However, I haven't tried in game (or I don't remember), so a confirmation on whether this works or not would be nice.
As I said in some other topic, I consider it a roleplay exploit, if such a thing exists, to force group NPCs that are clearly not meant to be in the same party. All the little tricks in what order to recruit them are just that; exploiting the mechanics to get around (subtle) restrictions. Alignments already mean so little, therefore I see it as a roleplay way to balance it and give them at least some meaning.
If you think about it, Minsc has no reason to *provoke* someone who wants to kill his witch. Alignment-wise, it would be Edwin's job to make an attempt to kill Dynaheir before Minsc tries to protect her. As it is, the two enemies will stay in a party without fighting if Minsc isn't present - the best situation for Edwin to take advantage of. I fail to see the logic in that.
If I'm reading NI correctly "Detect Evil" should not bypass magic resistance as the following flag is set:
Dispel/Not bypass resistance (1)
@Erg
I found this while browsing with google. According to the rules it shouldn't be subject to magic resistance, but is.
Detect Evil
You would be surprised what is Evil in BGII; just about everything. Still, knowing this in advance does not give you much advantages. Doing quests for people you know are Evil is still worthwhile. Oh, and you usually get to kill them afterwards anyway. Paladins get loads of this for free.
A more useful side effect of this spell is its "life scan" property. It will give you a listing of all Evil or magic resistant creatures in the area, giving you an indication of what is still left to go.
Casting Time: 9.
Range: Self.
Radius: The whole map.
This spell is erroneously subject to magic resistance. Get the fix from Baldurdash.
Interesting!
I was searching old posts to see if someone had already reported this as a bug and I've found the following thread:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2873/bg2-bgee-bug-detect-evil-0813
It looks like the developers of BGEE do not agree on this being a bug as not only it was implemented on purpose, but they've even applied a fix to make magic resistance more effective in preventing the "Detect Evil" spell from working.
I guess this is open to interpretation. I found the spell in a pathfinder manual and it said there is no saving throw and no magic resistance check. This is what's in the core manual though and it doesn't say one way or the other.
@UnknownQuantity - If I cast Detect Evil as a Priest of Talos, I detect my entire party and myself. Including Baeloth, with 50 % natural resistance and items bringing it up to 75 %. It must come as a shocking revelation to find out your own true nature that way.