Which fighting style do you think is the most useful for melee warrior?
Lapa
Member Posts: 73
Is there any point to use single weapon style when you can use shield also to give you more AC and protection? Dual wielding gives higher damage output than two handed weapons? Single weapon and one handed weapon & shield styles are only useful in BG1?
- Which fighting style do you think is the most useful for melee warrior?135 votes
- Dual wielding56.30%
- Two handed weapons25.19%
- Single weapon5.93%
- One handed weapon & shield12.59%
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Comments
I ultimately prefer Two-Handed characters because there are plenty of excellent Greatswords and Halberds, it's easier to keep your characters well-equipped when you only need one weapon each, and because being a Conan clone with a giant sword is just more fun than being a Drizzt clone with 2 weapons.
To answer your question: While it certainly isn't the best style for warriors, single-weapon does have some uses. If you're a dual-wielder who gets access to Whirlwind Attack, a single point in Single Weapon means you can drop your offhand blade and double your crit chance. It's also nice for a warrior who's primarily a ranged attacker, such as an Archer, since it allows you to get an AC bonus in melee without tedious inventory management.
At mid levels , when it's better to take the first shot , two weapons is just fine.
At higher levels, when most two handed weapons are incredbly powerful, well, you get my point.
The other styles do have their uses, but for raw damage and overall effectiveness, DW hands down.
Missile weapons are brutal at low levels, especially acid / fire arrows, as enemies can concentrate fire.
If we're talking about ToB, then that concern goes away, and all you care about is DPS (ugh, when did BG turn into some kind of MMO?).
Dual wield grants you an additional attack, but at -4 THACO (For a total of 3 attacks per round)
2 handed grants you +1 damage per hit and crit on 19-20.
1h+Shield is mostly useless.
Depending on the enemy, dual wield might deal more damage.
Dual wielding really shines in BG2 due to the awesome offhand available and improved haste.
In BG1, two handed swords are quite powerful (+3 & +2 with free action)
This - Dual-wielding only really comes into it's own in BG2, but I like to setup my proficiencies in BGEE so that I will start BG2 will 3 pips in dual-wield.
Dual-wield is great for Blades too, as it helps to maximise damage in the 4 rounds you have offensive spin for and the +2 THAC0 offensive spin bonus offsets the offhand penalty.
Single Weapon style is great for Thieves.
I sometimes give sword and shield style to NPC tanks, but never to CHARNAME, as it's much less useful in BG2
Two-handed style can be worth it for fighters with the Whirlwind HLAs, though, as you want to do maximum damage with each of your 10 attacks. Two-handed style also gives a bonus to weapon speed, which can be helpful for getting in attacks early in the round.
It's not as relevant in BG1, where there are few immunity-weapons and no(?) +APR off-hands, but in BG2 there really is no reason not to be dual-wielding, as long as you have good off-hands available.
There are some 2hs that bear mention, though, namely Staff of the Ram (for maximum backstabs) and Staff of the Magi/Carsomyr (for dispel on hit). These can be switched in as needed.
Two-handed weapons - most damage per hit, better range
Single weapon - If you cannot wear shields but want extra AC
One handed weapon & shield - extra AC and shield bonuses(if any)
Apparently, I'm the only archer that finds SWS worth it.
I do use and enjoy them all, though, especially when NPCs are considered.
Edit: Oy, still having my coffee I clicked the wrong box! I thought I was selecting Two-Weapon Style. Oh well.
i'd only go with 2HWS if i was making an archer or relying a lot on ranged, so it's easier to switch between weapons
And I think one extra attack (at -2, remember that) is not better than having double the possibilities of socring a critical (and with a weapon which deals far more damage). On top of that, two of the 3 vorpal weapons in the game are two handed. And, as you said, Staves are great, and also two handed.
PS. There is one exception to the above, IMHO: Dual wileding the Axe of Unyielding adn Crom Faeyr (off hand). Those two cambined are the best thing your melee fighter can get his hands on.
By the time I finish SoA, though, I'm usually dual-wielding. It's less a matter of style, though, and more a matter of not having anything else I want to spend proficiency points on.
As for vorpal weapons, Silver Sword allows for a save and Ravager will have less APR than AotU, not to mention less bonus stats. Really hard bosses are immune to vorpal hits anyway.
And as for the "far more damage" part... keep in mind that Katanas are 1d10, while a 2h sword is 1d12 - not the HUGE difference you'd expect, is it. Not to mention FoA+5, which does more damage than anything in the game including Staff of the Ram.
Either way, APR is the biggest factor contributing to damage output, and you can't really beat the APR of dual-wield. Yes you can GWW with 2h to get to 10 APR (the same as IH on a dw with +APR OH), but that means you are not using Critical Strike during that round, or taking it as your HLA for the level - oh wait, another thing that makes the 2h-mastery bonus worse! Surprise surprise >_>
I may seem like I'm going against conventional wisdom by choosing Two-Handed Weapons...but hear me out:
Grand Mastery is better than any weapon style. For sheer attacks per round, damage and speed bonus...Grand Mastery is completely superior, and by it's nature it's complimentary to Two-Handed Weapon Style.
The quickest route to "optimal" damage is going for Grand Mastery and ++Two Handed Weapon Style for the speed bonus to interrupt casters and the damage and crit bonus. (If you use special high level abilities or haste to increase attacks with this since you're crit chance is doubled, generally this will result in the most damage output as long as your strength is high) At the end of the day if all you can get is 10 attacks per round max with buffs...doubling your crit chance each time negates any critical misses you might have made entirely.
Staves are in all probability best for damage output and they're the only two-handed weapon type you can backstab with. Followed by Two-Handed Swords. (Which are close in damage range of staves despite blunt weapon bonuses usually) And halberds (which might be the most damaging overall as a weapon class but enemies will have the most resistance to them)
Dual wielding will give you great stat bonuses, but without being a Grand Master you lose out on attacks per round until the end game with Whirlwind attack / haste.
If you are a Grand Master who Dual wields you'll do amazing damage, but you're sacrificing a slight damage and speed bonus as well as the crit bonus to do so.
In the original BG2 where Grand Mastery didn't add enough attacks per round correctly Dual Wielding was vastly superior, but I'm convinced that two-handed weapon style WITH Grand Mastery gains an edge for these reasons.
As for dual wielding...it's very easy to max out and quick to show returns in BG2...but even in BG1 it's pretty darn effective.
I prefer Flails and Hammers for a character who dual wields, but Scimitar, Longsword, Bastard Sword and Axe are all great.
Short swords, daggers, Maces and such make great secondary weapons to spread things around if you need to.
If you're playing a class who can't grand master Dual Wielding is obviously better for stat bonuses / special abilities. If you can Grand Master in something a two-handed weapon is be best overall considering the eventual bonuses, ease of finding up to date weapons and since you can save other weapons that are optimal for dual wielding for party members who will benefit from getting extra attacks / bonuses.
Flail of the Ages though remains probably the single best weapon.
Lastly, though it's not damage superior I feel single weapon style is GREAT for a lot of NPC's of characters who can't really benefit from other weapons styles...while sword and shield is essentially a wasted point due to it's poor bonuses that make very little sense.
So really, all you are doing is trade double-crit for APR; 1 at least (for the OH attack), 2 at best (if the OH has +1 APR). And as I pointed out earlier, that is not a good trade to make. Without DW, it's impossible to reach 10 APR with IH, meaning you'd have to use GWW to get there - and that means one less round where you can pop Critical Strike, which incidentally also completely voids the 2h mastery crit-bonus.
But maybe I'm just misunderstanding something about your argument? Why wouldn't you be GM with dual-wield but would be with 2h?
For the 2HWS and DW comparison, doubling crit results in 5% Crit -> 10% Crit, which is a little less than a 5% increase in DPS. On the other hand, the extra attack from DW yields anywhere from 20%-50% increased DPS (little less because offhand weapons are generally inferior to the mainhand weapons, as well as the -2 THAC0 penalty). It's simply math.
Also, the speed bonus for 2H is more of a equalizer than a boon over 1H weapons. All 1H weapons are significantly faster than their 2H counterparts (except Staves - they're on par). So even with the full -4 in total speed, they're merely catching up rather than surpassing.
With all of that being said, like myself and others mentioned, SWS and 2HWS do have its moments. For the BG1 portion of the game, they really shine because you're really limited on PIPs (unless you're a ranger), the AC bonus from SWS is great early game, and the -2/4 THAC0 OH penalty from DW really hurts at low levels (I still think it nets more damage per round regardless though). Most non-warriors (with exceptions like Swashbucklers), are pretty much confined to SWS, 2HWS, and SnB anyway.
Also, for some NPCs, getting proficient in DWing takes quite a bit of time, in conjunction of specializing/mastering their weapon choices, and isn't really worth it. Take Mazzy, for example. She starts off pretty much specced for Shortbows and Shortswords. If you want to melee, short swords kind of suck because the lack of good weapon selection, so getting GM in another weapon choice will literally take forever. In addition to that, having to manually unequip your bow every time you want to melee is cumbersome to say the least.
Also, the crit bonus is pretty significant for backstabbing, so there's that. And then there's Carsomyr...
Other than that, however, DW is just flat out superior - especially for the CHARNAME, where you have complete control over weapon proficiency.
EDIT: @Lord_Tansheron - To add to your post, the +1 APR from Belm/Scarlet/Kundane is applied to your Mainhand. OH only gets "two attacks" under IH AFAIK, but that's only because IH reduces round duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds.
the best way to deal damage on a tough enemy is greater whirlwind attack,as it multiplies all procs and elemental damage on your weapon x10 and you can still crit which is quite common with 10 atks per round, a specialised character with flail of the ages and whirlwind kill all but the toughtest of foes in 1-2 rounds,so apart from Carsomyr 2-handers are not that great,and belm's off-hand attack is nothing in ToB,it's only point is to get improved haste+auto crit
also i doubt a fighter(non-mage) will find it easy to survive in Tob's mellee if every enemy in fight goes after him(aka acting like a tank)
so why you snobb shields is beyond me...
PS:i'll start a 'belm is overrated' compaign sometime in the future...
@Fenghoang
Your math seems off to me. (So...please respond if you feel I'm wrong about the following)
The extra attack won't matter with maxed attacks to 10 attacks per round. (Which improved Haste or Greater Whirlwind will provide)
10 attacks per round with mainhand weapon damage will outdamage any offhand weapon if you have full Grand Mastery and Two-Handed Weapon Style Damage bonus AND a high strength bonus.
Maybe you don't get to 25 Strength but you'll be on par with a decent belt.
The crit chance increase merely compensates for any critical failure rolls (roll of 1) canceling the loss of damage.
I don't know why your offhand weapon would suddenly increase your damage by as much as 20% let alone 50% at that point.
Where dual wielding shines is if you've got two weapons with great bonuses that are passively complimentary.
But with maxed attacks YES I will argue that Grand Mastery and Two-Weapon Style have a slight edge. Though by no means do I think anything is mutually exclusive.
Unbuffed you can have many combinations of great weapons that will yield more damage with a second weapon, but it's not going to out-damage an optimal scenario, especially if it's the Staff of Ram, Ravager, or Carsomyr Vs Chaotic Evil.
The only weapon that comes close is Flail of the Ages which can't be hasted at it's max damage level insofar as one handed weapons are concerned. (It's competitive, even slightly stronger than most of those weapons mentioned above. but you won't max attacks easily)
I will also give Foebane honorable mention when it's upgraded. Really great weapon for sure when it comes to sheer damage.
NOTE: This does not mean that I don't think Dual Wielding is strong...it's incredibly strong, and without buffs, it's very easy to get it to a point where it's going to out damage two-handers due to bonus abilities and the extra attack. But buffs exist. My statements reflect that.
Grandmastery will give me the attack I'm missing from a second weapon now, and a damage bonus...AND a speed bonus. As well as a great bonus to hit. But, this doesn't mean dual wielding isn't stupidly powerful. It's MUCH easier to coast on how powerful it is with a range of classes that can't attain Grand Mastery and it's perfectly strong enough for a fighter class. I'm just saying break out a calculator with max buffs and insert end game weapons...and most importantly think about canceling critical misses out, etc. To me that's going to yield more overall damage.