@debaser I'm not sure where you think my math is off. I'm assuming you're talking about the % damage increase. Crits in BG are a 100% increase in damage. Assuming you land all of your hits, a 5% crit (natural 20s), you'll crit once out of 20 hits. So if you do 20 damage per hit, that's a total of 420 damage over 20 hits. Increasing crit to 10% (19 and 20), will only increase the total damage to 440 total damage over 20 hits. That's an increase of 4.76% damage.
Even ignoring the offhand bonuses, DWing, adds an extra attack. You can attack with your mainhand anywhere from 2-4x a round, hence the 20%-50% increase in damage. However, you don't use the same weapon in your offhand as your mainhand and there's the -2 THAC0 penalty, so it's a bit less, which more like 15%-40%.
As far as the 10 APR with GWW, you are limited on how many times you can do that a day (they only last one round each), plus it's only a factor in ToB and very late SoA. You can hit that with just Imp Haste, if you DW Belm/Kundane/Scarlet with GM. On top of that, there's other HLAs that increase damage like the backstab and always crit HLAs. You're also sacrificing other useful HLAs like Hardiness.
Grand Mastery is better than any weapon style. For sheer attacks per round, damage and speed bonus...Grand Mastery is completely superior, and by it's nature it's complimentary to Two-Handed Weapon Style.
Yes, Grandmastery is amazing. But why even bring that up for this comparison? If you can GM in your 2h weapon, you could just as well GM in your dual-wield choice as well; it'd make no difference, you'd have GM with the weapon you are using either way. Keep in mind that GM is fairly irrelevant for your OH when dual-wielding - OH APR are hard-capped at 1. That means you don't need to GM in both weapons if you dual-wield different types, only that of your mainhand.
So really, all you are doing is trade double-crit for APR; 1 at least (for the OH attack), 2 at best (if the OH has +1 APR). And as I pointed out earlier, that is not a good trade to make. Without DW, it's impossible to reach 10 APR with IH, meaning you'd have to use GWW to get there - and that means one less round where you can pop Critical Strike, which incidentally also completely voids the 2h mastery crit-bonus.
But maybe I'm just misunderstanding something about your argument? Why wouldn't you be GM with dual-wield but would be with 2h?
I'm saying any class that can dual wield can become far more competitive to a fighter who can be a Grand Master just by dual wielding and gaining passive weapon bonuses from great off-hands, especially end game.
Now if you are a Grand Master who Dual Wields your offhand had better be Kundane or Belm...(for increasing mainhand weapon damage via extra attacks), or your offhand has to be competitive to your mainhand for overall damage in order to make the trade worth it. Also if you're offhand is of a different weapon type, it's attacks won't receive your GM bonuses to damage, hit and weapon speed, making your off-hand weaker if it's not of the same type. (This matters little for other classes who can only get one or two points in a weapon type, but if you can go all the way to Grand Mastery it hurts you Vs the crit bonus of 19-20, which negates critical missing insofar as overall calculated damage is concerned statistically.
Grandmastery will give me the attack I'm missing from a second weapon now, and a damage bonus...AND a speed bonus. As well as a great bonus to hit. But, this doesn't mean dual wielding isn't stupidly powerful. It's MUCH easier to coast on how powerful it is with a range of classes that can't attain Grand Mastery and it's perfectly strong enough for a fighter class. I'm just saying break out a calculator with max buffs and insert end game weapons...and most importantly think about canceling critical misses out, etc. To me that's going to yield more overall damage.
Like, I said before, 1H'ers are innately very fast. You will have a speed factor of 0-2 regardless with GM. Also, more hits = more interrupting. And buff bonuses get applied more with more APR.
endgame shields are +5 ac(you'll be hit 25% less,and a warrior in full plate will be hit less even in ToB, ac is not useless) not to mention that missile weapons will mostly miss you rather than hit you and you get a +1 on all saving throws (shield of the order)
the best way to deal damage on a tough enemy is greater whirlwind attack,as it multiplies all procs and elemental damage on your weapon x10 and you can still crit which is quite common with 10 atks per round, a specialised character with flail of the ages and whirlwind kill all but the toughtest of foes in 1-2 rounds,so apart from Carsomyr 2-handers are not that great,and belm's off-hand attack is nothing in ToB,it's only point is to get improved haste+auto crit
also i doubt a fighter(non-mage) will find it easy to survive in Tob's mellee if every enemy in fight goes after him(aka acting like a tank)
so why you snobb shields is beyond me...
PS:i'll start a 'belm is overrated' compaign sometime in the future...
There's offhands that have more benefits than -5 AC, though, like Defender of Easthaven that gives 20% Damage reduction. And there's offhands that give AC bonuses as well, just not as much as shields.
You can hit [10 attacks per round] with just Imp Haste, if you DW Belm/Kundane/Scarlet with GM. On top of that, there's other HLAs that increase damage like the backstab and always crit HLAs. You're also sacrificing other useful HLAs like Hardiness.
Agreed. The critical HLA gives you the biggest boost when you are using Imp Haste - all hits and all criticals - or Assassination for some combo of fighter and thief.
What is notable, however, for the late game is that many enemies that are remotely challenging by TOB are ones that are crit and backstab immune. The +6 weapons (which bypass Improved Mantle, etc. and hit the highly resistant like the Ravager) are generally the two-handers.
At the end of the day, I prefer either two-handed or two-weapon style for my melee characters and blunt and shield for my clerics. Both two-handed and two-weapon styles are so very effective that it is more a matter of preference than an exercise in metagaming.
@debaser I'm not sure where you think my math is off. I'm assuming the % damage increase. Crits in BG is a 100% increase in damage. Assuming you land all of your hits, a 5% crit (natural 20s), you'll crit once out of 20 hits. So if you do 20 damage per hit, that's a total of 420 damage over 20 hits. Increasing crit to 10% (19 and 20), will only increase the total damage to 440 total damage over 20 hits. That's an increase of 4.76% damage.
Even ignoring the offhand bonuses, DWing, adds an extra attack. You can attack with your mainhand anywhere from 2-4x a round, hence the 20%-50% increase in damage. However, you don't use the same weapon in your offhand as your mainhand and there's the -2 THAC0 penalty, so it's a bit less, which more like 15%-40%.
As far as the 10 APR with GWW, you are limited on how many times you can do that a day (they only last one round each), plus it's only a factor in ToB and very late SoA. You can hit that with just Imp Haste, if you DW Belm/Kundane/Scarlet with GM. On top of that, there's other HLAs that increase damage like the backstab and always crit HLAs. You're also sacrificing other useful HLAs like Hardiness.
Improved Haste will work as well as GWW. You can pretty much always get to 10 attacks per round easily if make it a priority. You lose out on passive magic bonuses is where you get hurt going with Two-Handed Weapons.
In exchange you compensate for Critical Missing...which is really the advantage to the crit percentage increase, I don't liken the extra crit chance to standard double damage, I look at it as essentially an extra attack that didn't fail to hit since a roll of 1 will ALWAYS miss. But you're 20% to 50% still doesn't add up to me. Each attack is individual, and ALL attacks will do a mean average of damage depending on your total bonuses and your weapon damage range per swing.
If your mainhand is statistically stronger, having the majority of your 10 attacks per round being mainhand damage range is best by far.
But if you're using a two-hander you're always using your best damaging weapon for the job for every attack. That adds up, especially if you're cancelling out the penalty for critically missing statistically. (A miss does no damage remember)
You can hit [10 attacks per round] with just Imp Haste, if you DW Belm/Kundane/Scarlet with GM. On top of that, there's other HLAs that increase damage like the backstab and always crit HLAs. You're also sacrificing other useful HLAs like Hardiness.
Agreed. The critical HLA gives you the biggest boost when you are using Imp Haste - all hits and all criticals - or Assassination for some combo of fighter and thief.
What is notable, however, for the late game is that many enemies that are remotely challenging by TOB are ones that are crit and backstab immune. The +6 weapons (which bypass Improved Mantle, etc. and hit the highly resistant like the Ravager) are generally the two-handers.
At the end of the day, I prefer either two-handed or two-weapon style for my melee characters and blunt and shield for my clerics. Both two-handed and two-weapon styles are so very effective that it is more a matter of preference than an exercise in metagaming.
I agree. It's more of a comparison for the CHARNAME. I usually don't bother that much with the NPCs - I tend to just stick with what they're good at and not worry too much about the meta.
But if you're using a two-hander you're always using your best damaging weapon for the job for every attack. That adds up, especially if you're cancelling out the penalty for critically missing statistically. (A miss does no damage remember)
The easiest way to address that as a dual wielder is with critical strike - 10 attacks per round all hitting and all doing criticals.
But a dual-wielding fighter can get that same grandmastery bonus, speed bonus, damage bonus, etc. There's no reason you can't have both.
The extra attack won't matter if you're at 10 APR. But how the hell do you reach 10 APR with a 2-hander, besides using GWW? A fighter with GM in 2-handers will have a base 2 APR, plus 1 from proficiency points, making for 3 APR. Double that with improved Haste and we're at six APR, max. A DW fighter with GM in his mainhand weapon gets that base 3 APR, plus 1 from DW, and a further plus 1 if he's using Belm. That's five APR, or ten under improved Haste.
Greater Whirlwind isn't actually all that great. A dual-wielding fighter can reach 10 APR with improved haste (Or a non-pure fighter can achieve 9 APR, or a combination without a speed weapon gets 8). 8-10 APR plus Critical Strike is much better than 10 APR with a 2-hander from GWW, especially when you consider the fact that Critical Strike guarantees hits and negates the main benefit from 2-handed weapon style.
Shields aren't pointless, but sword and shield style is, except for very early in the saga when a group of bandits can kill you in a single volley. There's no reason a dual-wielder can't drop Belm and strap on a shield as needed, which to me only furthers the appeal of dual-wielding versus 2-handing.
And since Belm is pretty much the best off-hand weapon in the saga, even against enemies that it literally can't damage, I'd be interested in seeing your reasoning for it being overrated.
Improved Haste will work as well as GWW. You can pretty much always get to 10 attacks per round easily if make it a priority. You lose out on passive magic bonuses is where you get hurt going with Two-Handed Weapons.
In exchange you compensate for Critical Missing...which is really the advantage to the crit percentage increase, I don't liken the extra crit chance to standard double damage, I look at it as essentially an extra attack that didn't fail to hit since a roll of 1 will ALWAYS miss. But you're 20% to 50% still doesn't add up to me. Each attack is individual, and ALL attacks will do a mean average of damage depending on your total bonuses and your weapon damage range per swing.
If your mainhand is statistically stronger, having the majority of your 10 attacks per round being mainhand damage range is best by far.
But if you're using a two-hander you're always using your best damaging weapon for the job for every attack. That adds up, especially if you're cancelling out the penalty for critically missing statistically. (A miss does no damage remember)
GWW does not stack with IH. The game caps you at 10 APR no matter what you do, unless you modified the game in some matter.
Misses are a non-factor by the end of SoA anyway. If you have a THAC0 of around -8 or better (you will if you are either a pure/multi warrior or if you use Tensers/Holy Power for a dualclass), you will hit almost 100% of the time anyway. Enemies, at most, have around the -10 - -12 AC range for Dragons. Most are around the -5 - -8 range in ToB.
Also, for 10 APR, 8 of those are your mainhand. All +APR bonuses from offhands are applied to mainhand. Your offhand never hits more than once a round unless you use IH (and technically it's because it reduces round durations from 6 to 3 seconds).
endgame shields are +5 ac(you'll be hit 25% less,and a warrior in full plate will be hit less even in ToB, ac is not useless) not to mention that missile weapons will mostly miss you rather than hit you and you get a +1 on all saving throws (shield of the order.
That's not how it works. The actual difference an AC bonus makes to your chance to be hit is completely situational, and depends on your current AC as well as your opponents THAC0. Here's a few examples:
Let's say an enemy currently needs to roll 14 or higher on their hit roll to hit you. In this case equiping an AC5 shield would result you only getting hit 1/6 (or 16.7%) as much as you were.
Let's say the enemy needs to roll a 2 or higher. Now equipping the shield results in being hit 13/19 (or 68.4%) as often as you were.
Now let's say the enemy's THAC0 is -5 and your AC is 0 (so he has to roll a '-5' or higher to hit you). Now equipping the shield would make no difference to your chance to be hit.
I'm not arguing that AC is useless, as I've always thought people who say that are exaggerating (although it's been way to long since I've played ToB to really argue), but extra AC can become a lot less useful depending on the situation.
Look not at a damage range of a die roll for your weapons, calculate out a MEAN average of damage that weapon will do.
So...take Staff of the ram -
Staff of the Ram - 15.5 MADMG + 2.5 MA BONUS PIERCING DMG = 18 MADMG
After you add up your attacks Staff of the Ram is good for 18 damage an attack essentially...
Multiply that by 10...you get 180 Damage per round if your attacks are set at 10 attacks per round.
Now take Flail of the Ages (which gets to be about 19.5 mean average damage, in exchange for free action which prevents improved haste, etc)
And Belm...which will only be good for 6.5 damage...if you're a Grand Master in Flails you'll gain the attack bonuses...so by level 13 you'll naturally have 7 attacks per round with FoA due to Belm's bonus attack...AND 1 attack with belm.
7 x 19.5 = 136.5, + 6.5 = 143.
Now...lets say you take a weaker one handed weapon so you can improved haste and get to 10 attacks per round...the next best thing is going to be a Foebane...which has a mean average of 10 damage as a one hander...no way can that compete with Staff of the Ram...or even Carsomyr against non Chaotic Evil opponents (which has 12.5 Mean Average Damage per swing without it's bonus damage)
And remember that critical misses get CANCELLED OUT now if you're using a two-hander...I'm not even getting into how they eat into your damage totals.
I'm saying at the top most point Two-handers nudge things out for raw damage...but dual wielders get more abilities and bonuses...and can fairly quickly become extremely powerful. You need to be a Grand Master to get a Two-Handed weapon up to this level of damage. It just doesn't work the other way around to that effect.
Maybe you don't get to 25 Strength but you'll be on par with a decent belt.
The crit chance increase merely compensates for any critical failure rolls (roll of 1) canceling the loss of damage.
I don't know why your offhand weapon would suddenly increase your damage by as much as 20% let alone 50% at that point.
Where dual wielding shines is if you've got two weapons with great bonuses that are passively complimentary.
But with maxed attacks YES I will argue that Grand Mastery and Two-Weapon Style have a slight edge. Though by no means do I think anything is mutually exclusive.
Unbuffed you can have many combinations of great weapons that will yield more damage with a second weapon, but it's not going to out-damage an optimal scenario, especially if it's the Staff of Ram, Ravager, or Carsomyr Vs Chaotic Evil.
The only weapon that comes close is Flail of the Ages which can't be hasted at it's max damage level insofar as one handed weapons are concerned. (It's competitive, even slightly stronger than most of those weapons mentioned above. but you won't max attacks easily)
I will also give Foebane honorable mention when it's upgraded. Really great weapon for sure when it comes to sheer damage.
NOTE: This does not mean that I don't think Dual Wielding is strong...it's incredibly strong, and without buffs, it's very easy to get it to a point where it's going to out damage two-handers due to bonus abilities and the extra attack. But buffs exist. My statements reflect that.
Flail of the Ages +5 CAN be hasted IF you first quickswap to a different mainhand, haste, and then quickswap back. The free action does NOT remove APR effects of haste (same thing with the Ring IIRC). There's plenty of other great damage alternatives anyway. FotA+5 is just the king.
As far as the +% damage from dualwielding, I was only talking about the bonus from your offhand (i did make an addendum that it isn't really a 20%-50% because of inferior offhand/THAC0 penalties). If you use Belm/Scarlet/Kundane, there is a literal 20%-50% bonus to your DPS, because the +APR bonuses are applied to your mainhand.
And I'll repeat myself again, +damage bonuses benefit most from APR. You hit more, you apply it more.
Maybe you don't get to 25 Strength but you'll be on par with a decent belt.
The crit chance increase merely compensates for any critical failure rolls (roll of 1) canceling the loss of damage.
I don't know why your offhand weapon would suddenly increase your damage by as much as 20% let alone 50% at that point.
Where dual wielding shines is if you've got two weapons with great bonuses that are passively complimentary.
But with maxed attacks YES I will argue that Grand Mastery and Two-Weapon Style have a slight edge. Though by no means do I think anything is mutually exclusive.
Unbuffed you can have many combinations of great weapons that will yield more damage with a second weapon, but it's not going to out-damage an optimal scenario, especially if it's the Staff of Ram, Ravager, or Carsomyr Vs Chaotic Evil.
The only weapon that comes close is Flail of the Ages which can't be hasted at it's max damage level insofar as one handed weapons are concerned. (It's competitive, even slightly stronger than most of those weapons mentioned above. but you won't max attacks easily)
I will also give Foebane honorable mention when it's upgraded. Really great weapon for sure when it comes to sheer damage.
NOTE: This does not mean that I don't think Dual Wielding is strong...it's incredibly strong, and without buffs, it's very easy to get it to a point where it's going to out damage two-handers due to bonus abilities and the extra attack. But buffs exist. My statements reflect that.
Flail of the Ages +5 CAN be hasted IF you first quickswap to a different mainhand, haste, and then quickswap back. The free action does NOT remove APR effects of haste (same thing with the Ring IIRC). There's plenty of other great damage alternatives anyway. FotA+5 is just the king.
As far as the +% damage from dualwielding, I was only talking about the bonus from your offhand (i did make an addendum that it isn't really a 20%-50% because of inferior offhand/THAC0 penalties). If you use Belm/Scarlet/Kundane, there is a literal 20%-50% bonus to your DPS, because the +APR bonuses are applied to your mainhand.
And I'll repeat myself again, +damage bonuses benefit most from APR. You hit more, you apply it more.
I agree that FoA is the king. Though I think it's ability should dispel haste effects, personally I think it's overpowered knowing you can cheese around it's intended effects. APR is what matters, but since 10 is the max you can get, I would want them ALL to be main hand level of damage if I was going for max Mean Average Damage per round. And I would want to cancel the effects of Critical Misses which will happen to dual wielders to.
Read my previous post to Madhax
Single Weapon Style using Flail of the Ages with Greater Whirlwind attack would probably be the most devastating for sheer damage now that I think about it, but it wouldn't work with improved haste so you'd be limited in it's usage. (Lowering the damage you can do prior to resting)
i have to ask...why is belm so highly rated? i'm aware of its extra attack per round, but who wants to hit with a +2 scimitar when you have weapons like Crom Fayr, Foebane, Hindo's Doom, Angurduval, Purifier etc to provide buffs and hit harder
even without belm, with GM by level 13 and your extra attacks with IH you can be outputting 9APR
(Had to edit the last post, I meant single weapon style using FLAIL OF THE AGES AND GREATER WHIRLWIND to max attacks and cut down on Critical Misses. Etc.
It's just because it increases mainhand attacks...that's it...Belm is good for improving your odds with a high damaging weapon you're good at using. I would personally lose a little extra damage for immunities or a stat bonus if it's available since overall that's going to improve your odds in better ways than just raw damage. So I concur.
The extra attack won't matter with maxed attacks to 10 attacks per round. (Which improved Haste or Greater Whirlwind will provide)
You do not get to 10 APR with IH unless you have those extra attacks. No 2h will get to 10 APR under IH, only with GWW - and that means sacrificing another HLA (i.e. Critical Strike).
Now if you are a Grand Master who Dual Wields your offhand had better be Kundane or Belm...(for increasing mainhand weapon damage via extra attacks), or your offhand has to be competitive to your mainhand for overall damage in order to make the trade worth it. Also if you're offhand is of a different weapon type, it's attacks won't receive your GM bonuses to damage, hit and weapon speed, making your off-hand weaker if it's not of the same type.
Kundane/Belm (and Scarlet Ninja-to) are one of THE big reasons to go DW on your damage dealers. Defender of Easthaven is another, for your tank. When picking OHs, rest assured that the +APR ones are the highest up on the list.
Also, since OH APR are capped at 1 (or effectively 2 under IH since it cuts round time in half), it won't matter too much that your proficiency will not be the best for most of the game; the vast majority of hits will still be MH attacks that do benefit.
If your mainhand is statistically stronger, having the majority of your 10 attacks per round being mainhand damage range is best by far.
But if you're using a two-hander you're always using your best damaging weapon for the job for every attack. That adds up, especially if you're cancelling out the penalty for critically missing statistically. (A miss does no damage remember)
How much APR will you have? Let's take a look:
- A 13+ fighter has 2 APR - Specialization adds 1/2 APR - Grandmastery (un-nerfed) adds 1 APR
That means you will have a base APR of 7/2. Now, with a 2h, that's all you get. With dual-wield however you can another 1 APR from your offhand, bringing you to 9/2 APR. If that OH then also has a +1 APR on it, you reach the maximum 5 APR. 4 APR of that will be MH attacks 1 APR will be OH attacks.
Wait a sec! 4 APR? Why, that is already more than your 2h APR, and that's only counting MH hits, i.e. hits with your "best damaging weapon" as you put it!
As for critical... An extra 5%-point chance to crit, at 100% increased damage per crit, roughly translates to a 5% increase in total damage.
How much do you gain from APR? Well, that depends since your OH will usually be weaker; but if you are using one of the +1 APR weapons (and you should, see above), then going from 7/2 APR to 4 APR (MH only) is 14.29% more (+1/7th) damage. Already a lot more, even without the damage/stat bonuses of the OH!
Given how close weapons are in damage already, I think it's clear that 2h has little chance of catching up. As someone rightly pointed out, a 1h katana will in fact do the same damage (1d10) as a 2h sword (barring a few exceptions) or a halberd. Even other 1h weapons will be very close (2d4, 1d8), given how little base damage matters in the face of stat bonuses/proficiencies.
And because it was mentioned: yes, there are no 1h +6 weapons, but there are VERY few of those to begin with. No enemy requires anything more than +4 for a baseline hit, and very few enemies ever use Improved Mantle - not to mention that you are unlikely to have your whole party stocked with +6 weapons anyway, so you will want to dispel the protection in the first place.
Incidentally, the whole "+X to hit" thing does dampen DW a little, since the +APR OHs are weakly enchanted - but again, the MH hits alone more than match the 2h APR, and even without OH hits you are likely to do more damage.
P.S.: I suck at math, please point out if I screwed up somewhere.
EDIT: I'm slow Like a whole new page of replies before I typed this one up. Damn you, work, and your constant interruptions!
@mjs the extra attack applies to your mainhand. So you get 1 attack with Belm and 1 *bonus* attack with your +5 mainhand of doom. Belm/Kundane/Scarlet Ninja-to allows you to get to 5 unbuffed attacks total with any fighter multi/dual if you use gauntlets of extraordinary specialisation, doubled up to 10 APR with improved haste for 20 rounds.
Belm allows multiclasses, rangers and paladins to get to 10 APR with IH, which they can't manage otherwise.
You aren't taking into account that 10 APR with a 2-hander is reliant on Whirlwind Attack, while 10 APR with dual-wielding can utilize Critical Strike.
Let's assume 20 strength:
Staff of the Ram +6:
1d6+12 = 13-18 damage, +8 from strength = 21-26 damage, +4 damage (I think?) from GM = 25-30, +1 from 2-handed style, +1-4 piercing = 27-35 damage a hit, or an average of 31.
Foebane +5: 2d4+5 = 7-13, +8 from strength = 15-21, +4 from GM = 19-25, for an average of 22, and I'll add in the Larloch's Minor Drain hits later.
Let's assume we're constantly hitting. So, for normal swings, over the course of 20 attacks, that's 17 hits, 2 crits, and 1 critical miss.
GWW activated, Staff of the Ram equipped: 31*17 = 527, 31*2*2 = 124, for a total of 651 average damage over two rounds.
Critical Strike activated, Improved Haste used, dual-wielding Foebane and Belm:
8 APR with Foebane, all crits, over two rounds:
21*16*2 = 672 damage.
So, assuming my math is at least mostly correct (and please check it, I don't usually do this), Foebane with Belm in the offhand outclasses Staff of the Ram over the course of two rounds, before even factoring in the Larloch procs, Belm swings, or possible bonus damage versus demons/extraplaner/etc.
Staff of the Ram still is the most damaging weapon per swing in the game, but 2-handers don't beat dual-wielding in overall damage output.
The extra attack won't matter with maxed attacks to 10 attacks per round. (Which improved Haste or Greater Whirlwind will provide)
You do not get to 10 APR with IH unless you have those extra attacks. No 2h will get to 10 APR under IH, only with GWW - and that means sacrificing another HLA (i.e. Critical Strike).
Now if you are a Grand Master who Dual Wields your offhand had better be Kundane or Belm...(for increasing mainhand weapon damage via extra attacks), or your offhand has to be competitive to your mainhand for overall damage in order to make the trade worth it. Also if you're offhand is of a different weapon type, it's attacks won't receive your GM bonuses to damage, hit and weapon speed, making your off-hand weaker if it's not of the same type.
Kundane/Belm (and Scarlet Ninja-to) are one of THE big reasons to go DW on your damage dealers. Defender of Easthaven is another, for your tank. When picking OHs, rest assured that the +APR ones are the highest up on the list.
Also, since OH APR are capped at 1 (or effectively 2 under IH since it cuts round time in half), it won't matter too much that your proficiency will not be the best for most of the game; the vast majority of hits will still be MH attacks that do benefit.
If your mainhand is statistically stronger, having the majority of your 10 attacks per round being mainhand damage range is best by far.
But if you're using a two-hander you're always using your best damaging weapon for the job for every attack. That adds up, especially if you're cancelling out the penalty for critically missing statistically. (A miss does no damage remember)
How much APR will you have? Let's take a look:
- A 13+ fighter has 2 APR - Specialization adds 1/2 APR - Grandmastery (un-nerfed) adds 1 APR
That means you will have a base APR of 7/2. Now, with a 2h, that's all you get. With dual-wield however you can another 1 APR from your offhand, bringing you to 9/2 APR. If that OH then also has a +1 APR on it, you reach the maximum 5 APR. 4 APR of that will be MH attacks 1 APR will be OH attacks.
Wait a sec! 4 APR? Why, that is already more than your 2h APR, and that's only counting MH hits, i.e. hits with your "best damaging weapon" as you put it!
As for critical... An extra 5%-point chance to crit, at 100% increased damage per crit, roughly translates to a 5% increase in total damage.
How much do you gain from APR? Well, that depends since your OH will usually be weaker; but if you are using one of the +1 APR weapons (and you should, see above), then going from 7/2 APR to 4 APR (MH only) is 14.29% more (+1/7th) damage. Already a lot more, even without the damage/stat bonuses of the OH!
Given how close weapons are in damage already, I think it's clear that 2h has little chance of catching up. As someone rightly pointed out, a 1h katana will in fact do the same damage (1d10) as a 2h sword (barring a few exceptions) or a halberd. Even other 1h weapons will be very close (2d4, 1d8), given how little base damage matters in the face of stat bonuses/proficiencies.
And because it was mentioned: yes, there are no 1h +6 weapons, but there are VERY few of those to begin with. No enemy requires anything more than +4 for a baseline hit, and very few enemies ever use Improved Mantle - not to mention that you are unlikely to have your whole party stocked with +6 weapons anyway, so you will want to dispel the protection in the first place.
Incidentally, the whole "+X to hit" thing does dampen DW a little, since the +APR OHs are weakly enchanted - but again, the MH hits alone more than match the 2h APR, and even without OH hits you are likely to do more damage.
P.S.: I suck at math, please point out if I screwed up somewhere.
EDIT: I'm slow Like a whole new page of replies before I typed this one up. Damn you, work, and your constant interruptions!
It's my understanding that Improved Haste just doubles your attacks per round, but that will max out at 10 any way.
GWW is just a fighters answer to this since they can't cast spells, though it can potentially make weaker combinations much stronger since you're just buffed to 10.
So that's where your math and mine conflict...if I'm wrong please correct me!
That's why the overall damage bonus of Grand Mastery applied to the top tier two-handers create more mean average damage than a one handed weapon.
Also in ten attacks you have 0.5% chance of a critical miss...so in two rounds you will miss once...but the two-handed weapon style essentially negates this. pushing your damage up a bit more again too.
you can achieve 9APR without belm though, which is pretty much the same as 10APR with belm, as very very in the late game (even late SoA) +2 are ineffective anyway. but with the other OH i mentioned you'll also get a butt-load of buffs
for non-fighters though...having that extra APR to your MH is pretty sweet
Look not at a damage range of a die roll for your weapons, calculate out a MEAN average of damage that weapon will do.
So...take Staff of the ram -
Staff of the Ram - 15.5 MADMG + 2.5 MA BONUS PIERCING DMG = 18 MADMG
After you add up your attacks Staff of the Ram is good for 18 damage an attack essentially...
Multiply that by 10...you get 180 Damage per round if your attacks are set at 10 attacks per round.
Now take Flail of the Ages (which gets to be about 19.5 mean average damage, in exchange for free action which prevents improved haste, etc)
And Belm...which will only be good for 6.5 damage...if you're a Grand Master in Flails you'll gain the attack bonuses...so by level 13 you'll naturally have 7 attacks per round with FoA due to Belm's bonus attack...AND 1 attack with belm.
7 x 19.5 = 136.5, + 6.5 = 143.
If you assume that you're using GWW with Staff of the Ram, if you want a fair comparison you should assume you're using GWW when dual-wielding FoA as well. Therefore FoA can do 19.5 x 9 = 175.5 damage/round. So you only need to do an average of greater than 4.5 damage with your off-hand to beat out SotR.
I only count 4 unbuffed attacks for non-grandmasters (Paladins, Rangers and multi fighters) without a +1 attack offhand.
2 from level 13 warrior class +1/2 from specialised +1/2 from gauntlets of ext. specialisation +1 from offhand giving a total of 4.
So under improved haste a non-GM only gets 8 attacks. Going from 8 to 10 is a big deal, even if the offhand is only +2. +2 is still enough to hit the majority of enemies in TOB, and you get 8 attacks with your mainhand rather than 6 which is again significant. Factor in the Scarlet Ninja-to which is +3 for fighter-thieves and you can now hit almost all enemies with the offhand too.
Look not at a damage range of a die roll for your weapons, calculate out a MEAN average of damage that weapon will do.
So...take Staff of the ram -
Staff of the Ram - 15.5 MADMG + 2.5 MA BONUS PIERCING DMG = 18 MADMG
After you add up your attacks Staff of the Ram is good for 18 damage an attack essentially...
Multiply that by 10...you get 180 Damage per round if your attacks are set at 10 attacks per round.
Now take Flail of the Ages (which gets to be about 19.5 mean average damage, in exchange for free action which prevents improved haste, etc)
And Belm...which will only be good for 6.5 damage...if you're a Grand Master in Flails you'll gain the attack bonuses...so by level 13 you'll naturally have 7 attacks per round with FoA due to Belm's bonus attack...AND 1 attack with belm.
7 x 19.5 = 136.5, + 6.5 = 143.
Now...lets say you take a weaker one handed weapon so you can improved haste and get to 10 attacks per round...the next best thing is going to be a Foebane...which has a mean average of 10 damage as a one hander...no way can that compete with Staff of the Ram...or even Carsomyr against non Chaotic Evil opponents (which has 12.5 Mean Average Damage per swing without it's bonus damage)
And remember that critical misses get CANCELLED OUT now if you're using a two-hander...I'm not even getting into how they eat into your damage totals.
I'm saying at the top most point Two-handers nudge things out for raw damage...but dual wielders get more abilities and bonuses...and can fairly quickly become extremely powerful. You need to be a Grand Master to get a Two-Handed weapon up to this level of damage. It just doesn't work the other way around to that effect.
I did take the mean average damage. Like I said, the damage range is practically a nonfactor in comparison to damage bonuses from Weapon Prof, Strength, and Weapon bonuses. The difference is literally at most 2 damage, and at worst less...
Like I mentioned before, you will not miss much (other than on critical miss rolls), because your THAC0 is vastly superior to the enemy AC. Whether it's because you're a pure/multi warrior or because you use Tensers/Holy Power on a dualclass, you will have north of -8 THAC0 easy when your enemy at most have -12 AC if they're a dragon (-5 - -8 ish if they're not). Like the others have mentioned, Critical or Assassination HLAs, IH, etc. far surpasses both the bonuses from 2HWS and GWW. Again, picking GWW is at the sacrifice of those plus other useful defensive ones like Hardiness.
For DPS comparisons, let's just take Spectral Brand+Belm for example. You get it roughly the same time as Staff of the Ram, and it's a viable alternative (even if it's vastly inferior to FotA+5). I'm not even going to use optimal Strength or GM bonuses for this comparison, because they heavily skew the results towards APR/DWing. Assuming 19 Str, only weapon specialization, and no IH/GWW/etc.:
Spectral Brand+5 + Belm (9/2 APR): MH: 4.5(Scimitar) + 5(Enchantment) + 3.5(Cold Dmg) + 7(Str) + 2(Wpn Spec) = 22 x 3.5APR OH: 4.5(Scimitar) + 2(Enchantment) + 7(Str) + 2(Wpn Spec) = 15.5 x 1APR Net Avg Damage over 1 Round (if all hits land): 92.5 (77 if you choose to ignore the OH dmg)
Staff of the Ram+6 (5/2 APR): 3.5(Staff) + 12(Crushing) + 2.5(Piercing) + 7(Str) + 2(Wpn Spec) + 1(2HWS)= 28 x 2.5APR Net Avg Damage over 1 Round (if all hits land): 70
EDIT: Fixed math. Forgot some values. Ignoring critical, because I'm not sure if the crushing/piercing/etc. bonuses crit or not. I know cold damage doesnt.
EDIT2: Added net avg dmg with no OH, since a +2 weapon probably won't hit everything late game anyway.
EDIT3: Just realized i forgot Gauntlets... oh well, just add that in there yourself. Not everyone can use em anyway (i.e. Kensai) XD
I'm merely calculating top level damage at max attacks...I'm not debating you get more attacks unbuffed as a dual wielder.
Though a Grand Master should get 7/2 with a two hander right? (I'm adding em up again in my head =P oy I hope this was all taken friendly and not as me being ultra stubbron)
For classes/kits that can only put two pips into a weapon proficiency (e.g. mutliclassed fighter/mage or Blade) dual-wield is non-brainer, for single class (or dual class) fighters its probably worth getting to Grand Mastery before considering dual-wielding.
It got lost in all the posts going up at once, but I'm pretty sure my calculations at maximized attacks has dual-wielding putting out more damage over time.
I'm merely calculating top level damage at max attacks...I'm not debating you get more attacks unbuffed as a dual wielder.
That still doesn't explain why you only gave FoA 7 attacks when dualled with Belm. If you're talking about IH, then FoA gets 8 attacks. If you're talking about GWW, FoA gets 9 attacks. If you're talking about unbuffed, then it makes no sense to compare it to SotR when you are buffed.
Though a Grand Master should get 7/2 with a two hander right? (I'm adding em up again in my head =P oy I hope this was all taken friendly and not as me being ultra stubbron)
Depends which proficiency system you're using. The vanilla BG2 system doesn't grant any extra attacks at GM, so you just have the +1/2 at 2 pips. Vanilla BG1/True Grandmastery mod grants +1 APR at GM, for a total of 3/2 extra APR from specialization. BG:EE grants +1/2 at GM, for a total of 1 extra attack from specialization. For a level 13+ fighter, these would correspond to 5/2, 7/2, and 3 APR respectively for any single melee weapon, assuming no other items/buffs.
You aren't taking into account that 10 APR with a 2-hander is reliant on Whirlwind Attack, while 10 APR with dual-wielding can utilize Critical Strike.
Let's assume 20 strength:
Staff of the Ram +6:
1d6+12 = 13-18 damage, +8 from strength = 21-26 damage, +4 damage (I think?) from GM = 25-30, +1 from 2-handed style, +1-4 piercing = 27-35 damage a hit, or an average of 31.
Foebane +5: 2d4+5 = 7-13, +8 from strength = 15-21, +4 from GM = 19-25, for an average of 22, and I'll add in the Larloch's Minor Drain hits later.
Let's assume we're constantly hitting. So, for normal swings, over the course of 20 attacks, that's 17 hits, 2 crits, and 1 critical miss.
GWW activated, Staff of the Ram equipped: 31*17 = 527, 31*2*2 = 124, for a total of 651 average damage over two rounds.
Critical Strike activated, Improved Haste used, dual-wielding Foebane and Belm:
8 APR with Foebane, all crits, over two rounds:
21*16*2 = 672 damage.
So, assuming my math is at least mostly correct (and please check it, I don't usually do this), Foebane with Belm in the offhand outclasses Staff of the Ram over the course of two rounds, before even factoring in the Larloch procs, Belm swings, or possible bonus damage versus demons/extraplaner/etc.
Staff of the Ram still is the most damaging weapon per swing in the game, but 2-handers don't beat dual-wielding in overall damage output.
Critical Strike is by far better than GWW is what that proves.
But with Grand Mastery and Gauntlet's of Extraordinary Specialization bonus attacks as well as improved Haste you get to 10 attacks per round using a two-hander without GWW...you could take Critical strike instead and use it at well.
At that point your 31 Damage per swing with SotR would be doubled right?
31x2 = 62
62x10 = 620
620x2 = 1240 Damage over two rounds.
All things being equal with Attacks Per Round and the average in which you're criting, that mainhand damage becomes everything. =/
I would settle for saying that under the right conditions two-handers and stronger but you have to plan for it...whereas unbuffed dual wielding is obviously easier to deal with when it comes to just being naturally strong.
It's not a fair comparison unless you're seeing what you can do to level the paying field though.
Comments
Even ignoring the offhand bonuses, DWing, adds an extra attack. You can attack with your mainhand anywhere from 2-4x a round, hence the 20%-50% increase in damage. However, you don't use the same weapon in your offhand as your mainhand and there's the -2 THAC0 penalty, so it's a bit less, which more like 15%-40%.
As far as the 10 APR with GWW, you are limited on how many times you can do that a day (they only last one round each), plus it's only a factor in ToB and very late SoA. You can hit that with just Imp Haste, if you DW Belm/Kundane/Scarlet with GM. On top of that, there's other HLAs that increase damage like the backstab and always crit HLAs. You're also sacrificing other useful HLAs like Hardiness.
I'm saying any class that can dual wield can become far more competitive to a fighter who can be a Grand Master just by dual wielding and gaining passive weapon bonuses from great off-hands, especially end game.
Now if you are a Grand Master who Dual Wields your offhand had better be Kundane or Belm...(for increasing mainhand weapon damage via extra attacks), or your offhand has to be competitive to your mainhand for overall damage in order to make the trade worth it. Also if you're offhand is of a different weapon type, it's attacks won't receive your GM bonuses to damage, hit and weapon speed, making your off-hand weaker if it's not of the same type. (This matters little for other classes who can only get one or two points in a weapon type, but if you can go all the way to Grand Mastery it hurts you Vs the crit bonus of 19-20, which negates critical missing insofar as overall calculated damage is concerned statistically.
That make sense?
What is notable, however, for the late game is that many enemies that are remotely challenging by TOB are ones that are crit and backstab immune. The +6 weapons (which bypass Improved Mantle, etc. and hit the highly resistant like the Ravager) are generally the two-handers.
At the end of the day, I prefer either two-handed or two-weapon style for my melee characters and blunt and shield for my clerics. Both two-handed and two-weapon styles are so very effective that it is more a matter of preference than an exercise in metagaming.
Improved Haste will work as well as GWW. You can pretty much always get to 10 attacks per round easily if make it a priority. You lose out on passive magic bonuses is where you get hurt going with Two-Handed Weapons.
In exchange you compensate for Critical Missing...which is really the advantage to the crit percentage increase, I don't liken the extra crit chance to standard double damage, I look at it as essentially an extra attack that didn't fail to hit since a roll of 1 will ALWAYS miss. But you're 20% to 50% still doesn't add up to me. Each attack is individual, and ALL attacks will do a mean average of damage depending on your total bonuses and your weapon damage range per swing.
If your mainhand is statistically stronger, having the majority of your 10 attacks per round being mainhand damage range is best by far.
But if you're using a two-hander you're always using your best damaging weapon for the job for every attack. That adds up, especially if you're cancelling out the penalty for critically missing statistically. (A miss does no damage remember)
But a dual-wielding fighter can get that same grandmastery bonus, speed bonus, damage bonus, etc. There's no reason you can't have both.
The extra attack won't matter if you're at 10 APR. But how the hell do you reach 10 APR with a 2-hander, besides using GWW? A fighter with GM in 2-handers will have a base 2 APR, plus 1 from proficiency points, making for 3 APR. Double that with improved Haste and we're at six APR, max. A DW fighter with GM in his mainhand weapon gets that base 3 APR, plus 1 from DW, and a further plus 1 if he's using Belm. That's five APR, or ten under improved Haste.
Greater Whirlwind isn't actually all that great. A dual-wielding fighter can reach 10 APR with improved haste (Or a non-pure fighter can achieve 9 APR, or a combination without a speed weapon gets 8). 8-10 APR plus Critical Strike is much better than 10 APR with a 2-hander from GWW, especially when you consider the fact that Critical Strike guarantees hits and negates the main benefit from 2-handed weapon style.
@Bill_Zagoudis
Shields aren't pointless, but sword and shield style is, except for very early in the saga when a group of bandits can kill you in a single volley. There's no reason a dual-wielder can't drop Belm and strap on a shield as needed, which to me only furthers the appeal of dual-wielding versus 2-handing.
And since Belm is pretty much the best off-hand weapon in the saga, even against enemies that it literally can't damage, I'd be interested in seeing your reasoning for it being overrated.
Misses are a non-factor by the end of SoA anyway. If you have a THAC0 of around -8 or better (you will if you are either a pure/multi warrior or if you use Tensers/Holy Power for a dualclass), you will hit almost 100% of the time anyway. Enemies, at most, have around the -10 - -12 AC range for Dragons. Most are around the -5 - -8 range in ToB.
Also, for 10 APR, 8 of those are your mainhand. All +APR bonuses from offhands are applied to mainhand. Your offhand never hits more than once a round unless you use IH (and technically it's because it reduces round durations from 6 to 3 seconds).
Let's say an enemy currently needs to roll 14 or higher on their hit roll to hit you. In this case equiping an AC5 shield would result you only getting hit 1/6 (or 16.7%) as much as you were.
Let's say the enemy needs to roll a 2 or higher. Now equipping the shield results in being hit 13/19 (or 68.4%) as often as you were.
Now let's say the enemy's THAC0 is -5 and your AC is 0 (so he has to roll a '-5' or higher to hit you). Now equipping the shield would make no difference to your chance to be hit.
I'm not arguing that AC is useless, as I've always thought people who say that are exaggerating (although it's been way to long since I've played ToB to really argue), but extra AC can become a lot less useful depending on the situation.
Look not at a damage range of a die roll for your weapons, calculate out a MEAN average of damage that weapon will do.
So...take Staff of the ram -
Staff of the Ram - 15.5 MADMG + 2.5 MA BONUS PIERCING DMG = 18 MADMG
After you add up your attacks Staff of the Ram is good for 18 damage an attack essentially...
Multiply that by 10...you get 180 Damage per round if your attacks are set at 10 attacks per round.
Now take Flail of the Ages (which gets to be about 19.5 mean average damage, in exchange for free action which prevents improved haste, etc)
And Belm...which will only be good for 6.5 damage...if you're a Grand Master in Flails you'll gain the attack bonuses...so by level 13 you'll naturally have 7 attacks per round with FoA due to Belm's bonus attack...AND 1 attack with belm.
7 x 19.5 = 136.5, + 6.5 = 143.
Now...lets say you take a weaker one handed weapon so you can improved haste and get to 10 attacks per round...the next best thing is going to be a Foebane...which has a mean average of 10 damage as a one hander...no way can that compete with Staff of the Ram...or even Carsomyr against non Chaotic Evil opponents (which has 12.5 Mean Average Damage per swing without it's bonus damage)
And remember that critical misses get CANCELLED OUT now if you're using a two-hander...I'm not even getting into how they eat into your damage totals.
I'm saying at the top most point Two-handers nudge things out for raw damage...but dual wielders get more abilities and bonuses...and can fairly quickly become extremely powerful. You need to be a Grand Master to get a Two-Handed weapon up to this level of damage. It just doesn't work the other way around to that effect.
As far as the +% damage from dualwielding, I was only talking about the bonus from your offhand (i did make an addendum that it isn't really a 20%-50% because of inferior offhand/THAC0 penalties). If you use Belm/Scarlet/Kundane, there is a literal 20%-50% bonus to your DPS, because the +APR bonuses are applied to your mainhand.
And I'll repeat myself again, +damage bonuses benefit most from APR. You hit more, you apply it more.
I agree that FoA is the king. Though I think it's ability should dispel haste effects, personally I think it's overpowered knowing you can cheese around it's intended effects. APR is what matters, but since 10 is the max you can get, I would want them ALL to be main hand level of damage if I was going for max Mean Average Damage per round. And I would want to cancel the effects of Critical Misses which will happen to dual wielders to.
Read my previous post to Madhax
Single Weapon Style using Flail of the Ages with Greater Whirlwind attack would probably be the most devastating for sheer damage now that I think about it, but it wouldn't work with improved haste so you'd be limited in it's usage. (Lowering the damage you can do prior to resting)
even without belm, with GM by level 13 and your extra attacks with IH you can be outputting 9APR
It's just because it increases mainhand attacks...that's it...Belm is good for improving your odds with a high damaging weapon you're good at using. I would personally lose a little extra damage for immunities or a stat bonus if it's available since overall that's going to improve your odds in better ways than just raw damage. So I concur.
Kundane/Belm (and Scarlet Ninja-to) are one of THE big reasons to go DW on your damage dealers. Defender of Easthaven is another, for your tank. When picking OHs, rest assured that the +APR ones are the highest up on the list.
Also, since OH APR are capped at 1 (or effectively 2 under IH since it cuts round time in half), it won't matter too much that your proficiency will not be the best for most of the game; the vast majority of hits will still be MH attacks that do benefit. How much APR will you have? Let's take a look:
- A 13+ fighter has 2 APR
- Specialization adds 1/2 APR
- Grandmastery (un-nerfed) adds 1 APR
That means you will have a base APR of 7/2. Now, with a 2h, that's all you get. With dual-wield however you can another 1 APR from your offhand, bringing you to 9/2 APR. If that OH then also has a +1 APR on it, you reach the maximum 5 APR. 4 APR of that will be MH attacks 1 APR will be OH attacks.
Wait a sec! 4 APR? Why, that is already more than your 2h APR, and that's only counting MH hits, i.e. hits with your "best damaging weapon" as you put it!
As for critical... An extra 5%-point chance to crit, at 100% increased damage per crit, roughly translates to a 5% increase in total damage.
How much do you gain from APR? Well, that depends since your OH will usually be weaker; but if you are using one of the +1 APR weapons (and you should, see above), then going from 7/2 APR to 4 APR (MH only) is 14.29% more (+1/7th) damage. Already a lot more, even without the damage/stat bonuses of the OH!
Given how close weapons are in damage already, I think it's clear that 2h has little chance of catching up. As someone rightly pointed out, a 1h katana will in fact do the same damage (1d10) as a 2h sword (barring a few exceptions) or a halberd. Even other 1h weapons will be very close (2d4, 1d8), given how little base damage matters in the face of stat bonuses/proficiencies.
And because it was mentioned: yes, there are no 1h +6 weapons, but there are VERY few of those to begin with. No enemy requires anything more than +4 for a baseline hit, and very few enemies ever use Improved Mantle - not to mention that you are unlikely to have your whole party stocked with +6 weapons anyway, so you will want to dispel the protection in the first place.
Incidentally, the whole "+X to hit" thing does dampen DW a little, since the +APR OHs are weakly enchanted - but again, the MH hits alone more than match the 2h APR, and even without OH hits you are likely to do more damage.
P.S.: I suck at math, please point out if I screwed up somewhere.
EDIT: I'm slow
Belm allows multiclasses, rangers and paladins to get to 10 APR with IH, which they can't manage otherwise.
You aren't taking into account that 10 APR with a 2-hander is reliant on Whirlwind Attack, while 10 APR with dual-wielding can utilize Critical Strike.
Let's assume 20 strength:
Staff of the Ram +6:
1d6+12 = 13-18 damage, +8 from strength = 21-26 damage, +4 damage (I think?) from GM = 25-30, +1 from 2-handed style, +1-4 piercing = 27-35 damage a hit, or an average of 31.
Foebane +5:
2d4+5 = 7-13, +8 from strength = 15-21, +4 from GM = 19-25, for an average of 22, and I'll add in the Larloch's Minor Drain hits later.
Let's assume we're constantly hitting. So, for normal swings, over the course of 20 attacks, that's 17 hits, 2 crits, and 1 critical miss.
GWW activated, Staff of the Ram equipped:
31*17 = 527, 31*2*2 = 124, for a total of 651 average damage over two rounds.
Critical Strike activated, Improved Haste used, dual-wielding Foebane and Belm:
8 APR with Foebane, all crits, over two rounds:
21*16*2 = 672 damage.
So, assuming my math is at least mostly correct (and please check it, I don't usually do this), Foebane with Belm in the offhand outclasses Staff of the Ram over the course of two rounds, before even factoring in the Larloch procs, Belm swings, or possible bonus damage versus demons/extraplaner/etc.
Staff of the Ram still is the most damaging weapon per swing in the game, but 2-handers don't beat dual-wielding in overall damage output.
@Lord_Tansheron
It's my understanding that Improved Haste just doubles your attacks per round, but that will max out at 10 any way.
GWW is just a fighters answer to this since they can't cast spells, though it can potentially make weaker combinations much stronger since you're just buffed to 10.
So that's where your math and mine conflict...if I'm wrong please correct me!
That's why the overall damage bonus of Grand Mastery applied to the top tier two-handers create more mean average damage than a one handed weapon.
Also in ten attacks you have 0.5% chance of a critical miss...so in two rounds you will miss once...but the two-handed weapon style essentially negates this. pushing your damage up a bit more again too.
you can achieve 9APR without belm though, which is pretty much the same as 10APR with belm, as very very in the late game (even late SoA) +2 are ineffective anyway. but with the other OH i mentioned you'll also get a butt-load of buffs
for non-fighters though...having that extra APR to your MH is pretty sweet
2 from level 13 warrior class +1/2 from specialised +1/2 from gauntlets of ext. specialisation +1 from offhand giving a total of 4.
So under improved haste a non-GM only gets 8 attacks. Going from 8 to 10 is a big deal, even if the offhand is only +2. +2 is still enough to hit the majority of enemies in TOB, and you get 8 attacks with your mainhand rather than 6 which is again significant. Factor in the Scarlet Ninja-to which is +3 for fighter-thieves and you can now hit almost all enemies with the offhand too.
Like I mentioned before, you will not miss much (other than on critical miss rolls), because your THAC0 is vastly superior to the enemy AC. Whether it's because you're a pure/multi warrior or because you use Tensers/Holy Power on a dualclass, you will have north of -8 THAC0 easy when your enemy at most have -12 AC if they're a dragon (-5 - -8 ish if they're not). Like the others have mentioned, Critical or Assassination HLAs, IH, etc. far surpasses both the bonuses from 2HWS and GWW. Again, picking GWW is at the sacrifice of those plus other useful defensive ones like Hardiness.
For DPS comparisons, let's just take Spectral Brand+Belm for example. You get it roughly the same time as Staff of the Ram, and it's a viable alternative (even if it's vastly inferior to FotA+5). I'm not even going to use optimal Strength or GM bonuses for this comparison, because they heavily skew the results towards APR/DWing. Assuming 19 Str, only weapon specialization, and no IH/GWW/etc.:
Spectral Brand+5 + Belm (9/2 APR):
MH: 4.5(Scimitar) + 5(Enchantment) + 3.5(Cold Dmg) + 7(Str) + 2(Wpn Spec) = 22 x 3.5APR
OH: 4.5(Scimitar) + 2(Enchantment) + 7(Str) + 2(Wpn Spec) = 15.5 x 1APR
Net Avg Damage over 1 Round (if all hits land): 92.5 (77 if you choose to ignore the OH dmg)
Staff of the Ram+6 (5/2 APR):
3.5(Staff) + 12(Crushing) + 2.5(Piercing) + 7(Str) + 2(Wpn Spec) + 1(2HWS)= 28 x 2.5APR
Net Avg Damage over 1 Round (if all hits land): 70
EDIT: Fixed math. Forgot some values. Ignoring critical, because I'm not sure if the crushing/piercing/etc. bonuses crit or not. I know cold damage doesnt.
EDIT2: Added net avg dmg with no OH, since a +2 weapon probably won't hit everything late game anyway.
EDIT3: Just realized i forgot Gauntlets... oh well, just add that in there yourself. Not everyone can use em anyway (i.e. Kensai) XD
I'm merely calculating top level damage at max attacks...I'm not debating you get more attacks unbuffed as a dual wielder.
Though a Grand Master should get 7/2 with a two hander right? (I'm adding em up again in my head =P oy I hope this was all taken friendly and not as me being ultra stubbron)
Spectral Brand+5 + Belm (5 APR):
MH: 4.5(Scimitar) + 5(Enchantment) + 3.5(Cold Dmg)+ 10(Str) + 5(Wpn Spec) = 28 x 4APR
OH: 4.5(Scimitar) + 2(Enchantment) + 10(Str) + 5(Wpn Spec) = 21.5 x 1APR
Net Avg Damage over 1 Round (if all hits land): 133.5 (112 without OH dmg)
Staff of the Ram+6 (7/2 APR):
3.5(Staff) + 12(Crushing) + 2.5(Piercing) + 10(Str) + 5(Wpn Spec) + 1(2HWS) = 34 x 3.5APR
Net Avg Damage over 1 Round (if all hits land): 119
Again, ignoring crits, because I'm unsure whether crushing/piercing/etc. bonuses crits or not. I know cold dmg doesn't.
EDIT: Added net avg dmg with no OH, since a +2 weapon probably won't hit everything late game anyway.
EDIT2: Just realized i forgot Gauntlets... oh well, just add that in there yourself. Not everyone can use em anyway (i.e. Kensai) XD
It got lost in all the posts going up at once, but I'm pretty sure my calculations at maximized attacks has dual-wielding putting out more damage over time.
Critical Strike is by far better than GWW is what that proves.
But with Grand Mastery and Gauntlet's of Extraordinary Specialization bonus attacks as well as improved Haste you get to 10 attacks per round using a two-hander without GWW...you could take Critical strike instead and use it at well.
At that point your 31 Damage per swing with SotR would be doubled right?
31x2 = 62
62x10 = 620
620x2 = 1240 Damage over two rounds.
All things being equal with Attacks Per Round and the average in which you're criting, that mainhand damage becomes everything. =/
I would settle for saying that under the right conditions two-handers and stronger but you have to plan for it...whereas unbuffed dual wielding is obviously easier to deal with when it comes to just being naturally strong.
It's not a fair comparison unless you're seeing what you can do to level the paying field though.