It's my understanding that Improved Haste just doubles your attacks per round, but that will max out at 10 any way.
Effectively yes, though what it actually does is cut round time in half for that char, so in the time it takes for 1 round for everyone else, they will have gone through 2 rounds. For most intents and purposes (but not all) this effectively ends up doubling your attacks.
But even so: to get to 10 APR you'd need 5 APR to begin with - which you will NOT have with 2h weapons. The most you can get is 4 APR: 2 from being a 13+ fighter, 1/2 from Specialization, 1 from Grandmastery and 1/2 from the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. With Improved Haste, that would be 8 APR. With dual wield, you gain the above, PLUS 1 from your Offhand (2 with IH) and also potentially 1 from the +APR offhands (Belm/Kundane/Scarlet Ninja-to) maxing out APR at 5 (it can't go higher for baseline) or 10 APR (again, can't go higher). 4(8) of those will be MH-only attacks, the same (or less, if someone else is wearing the Gauntlets) as someone using a 2h.
Since I forgot to include Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization... let's do a comparison with it and not use Belm/Kundane/Scarlet for offhand (subbing with good ol' Crom Faeyr), since it's superfluous with the gauntlet. BTW, i'm using the True GM and BGEE version of GM in my calculations, since I'm assuming BG2EE would retain it... if not you can mod it like in classic.
Equipment: Belt of Fire Giant Strength (22 Str), Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, Grandmaster (*****)in MH + Spec (**) in OH
But with Grand Mastery and Gauntlet's of Extraordinary Specialization bonus attacks as well as improved Haste you get to 10 attacks per round using a two-hander without GWW...you could take Critical strike instead and use it at well.
You can't get to 10 APR with a 2H weapon without using WW/GWW. Even if you have "True Grandmastery" (which you'll never get in an unmodded game, and if we start considering mods then this whole argument is pretty much useless), granting +3/2 APR, and are wearing Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, you're only going to have 4 APR, 8 with IH.
It's my understanding that Improved Haste just doubles your attacks per round, but that will max out at 10 any way.
Effectively yes, though what it actually does is cut round time in half for that char, so in the time it takes for 1 round for everyone else, they will have gone through 2 rounds. For most intents and purposes (but not all) this effectively ends up doubling your attacks.
But even so: to get to 10 APR you'd need 5 APR to begin with - which you will NOT have with 2h weapons. The most you can get is 4 APR: 2 from being a 13+ fighter, 1/2 from Specialization, 1 from Grandmastery and 1/2 from the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. With Improved Haste, that would be 8 APR. With dual wield, you gain the above, PLUS 1 from your Offhand (2 with IH) and also potentially 1 from the +APR offhands (Belm/Kundane/Scarlet Ninja-to) maxing out APR at 5 (it can't go higher for baseline) or 10 APR (again, can't go higher). 4(8) of those will be MH-only attacks, the same (or less, if someone else is wearing the Gauntlets) as someone using a 2h.
Since I forgot to include Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization... let's do a comparison with it and not use Belm/Kundane/Scarlet for offhand (subbing with good ol' Crom Faeyr), since it's superfluous with the gauntlet. BTW, i'm using the True GM and BGEE version of GM in my calculations, since I'm assuming BG2EE would retain it... if not you can mod it like in classic.
Equipment: Belt of Fire Giant Strength (22 Str), Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, Grandmaster (*****)in MH + Spec (**) in OH
What happens if you factor in the 0.5 percent chance of a critical miss?
Since it could be either mainhand or offhand that misses...average out the two in terms of damage, 34 and 31....that comes to 32.5...divide that in half, 16.25....and subtract that from your 167 total...you get 150.75
You still beat the SotR but not by much at that point..and you needed Crom Faeyr to do it!
(Note this is oversimplified...odds are really that it would be your main that misses...which would make you an even 150.)
Single weapon is also helpful to the kensai, as the +2 (technically -2, but I digress) AC bonus helps to offset a great limitation of the class early on. Their THAC0 is strong enough, and being limited at the high end of damage (compared to two-handed weapons) isn't as big a deal.
I also ♥ sword and shield in BG. Missile weapons are very dangerous in BG (a point made above many times).
Honestly, for the most part, you can't really go wrong here. Think of the character, first, then match proficiencies to optimize the character. I am playing a cavalier, so the limit of how many stars per weapon means I don't 'lose' as much by putting points in to sword and shield. I wanted a shield-carrying character, so I'm optimizing that.
I would love sword and shield to add a shield bash of some sort (maybe a 10% chance of an extra attack (bludgeoning) for 1-4 damage (buckler), 1-6 (med), 1-8 large, 2-8 tower? - or is that OP?) that comes with the style.
Also, a final note on sword and shield, it's great for buckler users, as they get help against arrows (thieves, right? As well as the weak
Looking at you, Viconia!
characters that might not be able to use bigger shields.
Since I forgot to include Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization... let's do a comparison with it and not use Belm/Kundane/Scarlet for offhand (subbing with good ol' Crom Faeyr), since it's superfluous with the gauntlet. BTW, i'm using the True GM and BGEE version of GM in my calculations, since I'm assuming BG2EE would retain it... if not you can mod it like in classic.
Equipment: Belt of Fire Giant Strength (22 Str), Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, Grandmaster (*****)in MH + Spec (**) in OH
What happens if you factor in the 0.5 percent chance of a critical miss?
Since it could be either mainhand or offhand that misses...average out the two in terms of damage, 34 and 31....that comes to 32.5...divide that in half, 17.25....and subtract that from your 167 total...you get 149.75
You still beat the SotR but not by much at that point..and you needed Crom Faeyr to do it!
Not sure. I don't know if the Piercing/Crushing dmg bonus from SotR crits or not. I purposely ignored buffs and crits, because A. some bosses in ToB are immune to critical or backstab, B. various mobs are resistant to various things, and C. HLAs throw everything out of the loop.
The baseline critical miss should be roughly equivalent though I think... I'm not sure if a roll of 19 (2HWS) or the Critical HLAs guarantees a hit even if the mob is immune to critical damage.
And I purposely chose an alternative to FotA+5 to compare DW prowess in comparison to the best 2H to drive home the point of the power of APR. I chose Crom Faeyr, because that's the next logical DPS offhand if you don't use one of the +APR swords. Even with a less powerful MH, it still rivals/surpasses SotR and that says a lot about the importance of APR. I think most of the other weapon alternatives (Storm Star, Angurvadal, Foebane, etc.) do about as much as Spectral Brand, but none of these damage comparisons even factor in the various bonuses the MH provides. Let's face it though, nothing really comes close to FotA+5 in sheer damage.
In BG1 there is an argument for all (or indeed none) of the styles: Dual wielding – more apr, more damage. 2H – Highest damaging weapons and crit bonus. Single weapon – 2 AC bonus as good as any shield + crit bonus. Sword and Shield – Missile weapons are a genuine threat, but there are other ways to boost missile defense so it’s still the worst option really. No style – E.g. A F(3)->T dual would be able to GM in one weapon and specialise in another.
In SoA (pre-HLAs) dual wielding is clearly the best option. Belm/Kundane are available early and once you have Imp. Haste no other style comes close in damage terms regardless of crit bonuses. AC bonuses are superseded by improved equipment.
In ToB HLAs narrow the field somewhat but dual wielding is still superior. Dual wielding with Imp. Haste is still better than GWW with another style as you can activate another ability in the round be it Critical Strike, casting a spell, quaffing a potion, etc. I don’t see how there can be any argument.
Now does improved haste and GWW STACK? Or does the 10 APR limit hold like I think it does?
They don't stack at all AFAIK. The best one overrides the other, until one wears out. GWW increases your APR to 10 and your APR can't go above 10, so there's no stacking.
In reality, the way the game handles things is you're hard capped at 5 APR. GWW and IH halves the usual round time from 6 seconds to 3 seconds, and thats why your char screen says 10 APR.
Since I forgot to include Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization... let's do a comparison with it and not use Belm/Kundane/Scarlet for offhand (subbing with good ol' Crom Faeyr), since it's superfluous with the gauntlet. BTW, i'm using the True GM and BGEE version of GM in my calculations, since I'm assuming BG2EE would retain it... if not you can mod it like in classic.
Equipment: Belt of Fire Giant Strength (22 Str), Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, Grandmaster (*****)in MH + Spec (**) in OH
What happens if you factor in the 0.5 percent chance of a critical miss?
Since it could be either mainhand or offhand that misses...average out the two in terms of damage, 34 and 31....that comes to 32.5...divide that in half, 17.25....and subtract that from your 167 total...you get 149.75
You still beat the SotR but not by much at that point..and you needed Crom Faeyr to do it!
Not sure. I don't know how the Piercing/Crushing dmg bonus from SotR crits or not. I purposely ignored buffs and crits, because A. some bosses in ToB are immune to critical or backstab, B. various mobs are resistant to various things, and C. HLAs throw everything in the loop.
The baseline critical miss should be roughly equivalent though I think... I'm not sure if a roll of 19 (2HWS) or the Critical HLAs guarantees a hit even if the mob is immune to critical damage.
And I purposely chose an alternative to FotA+5 to compare DW prowess in comparison to the best 2H to drive home the point the power of APR. I chose Crom Faeyr, because that's the next logical DPS offhand if you don't use one of the +APR swords. Even with a less powerful MH, it still rivals/surpasses SotR and that says a lot about the importance of APR. I think most of the other weapon alternatives (Storm Star, Angurvadal, Foebane, etc.) do about as much as Spectral Brand, but none of these damage comparisons even factor in the various bonuses the MH provides. Let's face it though, nothing really comes close to FotA+5 in sheer damage.
I have used all of the styles before, it just depends on what I want to play. These are classes I have used the various styles for:
Single Weapon Style: Swashbuckler, MONK (only one they can use), Kensai and Kensai/Mage Two-Handed: Any Paladin, some Fighters, Beastmasters, Cleric/Thief Sword and Shield Style: Half-Orc Fighter/Cleric (I don't particularly like this style, I did try it out once though. I dissuade people I introduce to the BG series from this style) Two Weapon Fighting: Fighters, all Rangers except Beastmasters and Archers, Fighter/Cleric, Kensai and Kensai/Mage (as @Aosaw said, I start off with Single Weapon for the AC bonus and then move on to two weapons), Swashbuckler (once you have decent AC and the proficiency points for it, it is a reliable way to get more attacks and if you go with Belm it can make your swashbuckler deal out hefty damage in addition to his trap-like skills).
I kind of wish Ranged Weapons had a few style choices, though I can't think of what kind of bonuses they would get. Maybe something like two arrows in the first shot of a round for bonus damage? Or extra speed Factor/Crit/damage bonus like some of the other styles have? I don't see AC bonus fitting in, but a 19-20 Crit would be appreciated for those who Arch.
Is it clear how GM is going to affect dual wielding/improved haste with the EE game?
Right now with two normal weapons and GM, improved haste boosts a high level fighter to 8 attacks per round. If you add in the Gauntlets of Extraordinary specialization and the bonus APR from Belm, etc., is this just going to add up to 9 as in BG2 or will it get rolled to 10? That isn't clear to me.
In normal BG2, using two normal weapons and GM got you only 7 attacks per round with improved haste. Adding Belm and the Gauntlets pushed you up to 9.
It isn't clear to me that the EE with GM will cap out at 9 attacks per round when normal weapons with GM and the Gauntlets would hit 9 attacks per round before the APR bonus from Belm, etc. If that is the case, then you might as well wield something much better in the offhand and still have 9 attacks per round in the EE.
It depends mostly on the CHARNAME , I am playiong If I am playing a Duel or multiclass fighter thief I will go duel weild or a Paladin will go for the 2 handed Style if I am playing a fighter I am more likely to go like a Kaigain like tank with Shield
- dual-wield deals more damage than 2h - APR is the biggest contributor to your damage - shields become weaker the higher you go in levels throughout the trilogy - single-weapon spec is almost useless
Did I miss anything? Most of the discussion is arguments proving these points, particularly the first two.
When I roll up a Kensai, I always start BG1 with Single Weapon Style. That extra +1/+2 AC in the early levels helps immensely to make up for the lack of armor.
By the time I finish SoA, though, I'm usually dual-wielding. It's less a matter of style, though, and more a matter of not having anything else I want to spend proficiency points on.
I never really got the presumed Kensai-no-armor-problem. If you just buff them with your casters they tank just fine. In my Kensai/thief run, at the point when I finally got UAI I didn't even notice much of a difference.
The most useful fighting style depends on what use you want your fighter to fulfill.
Sword and Shield is better if you want a tank. Single-weapon...okay, honestly not sure what that's useful for. I guess it's better than early shields, but by the time you get enchanted shields you're better off using S&S Two-weapon and two-handed weapon are good for DPS, using one or the other is really just a matter of flavour.
For BG1/BGEE, definitely weapon & shield IMO. It's way more important to have a lower armor class and to protect yourself from missiles adequately when you are lower level, as 1 or 2 good hits will take you down.
For BG2, however, I would answer this differently -- in that case I tend to go with a 2-handed weapon if my warrior is strength-oriented or dual-wield if dexterity-oriented (but I stress that that's purely an RPG decision than an actual statement as to which of those two is better -- either will do).
Since I forgot to include Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization... let's do a comparison with it and not use Belm/Kundane/Scarlet for offhand (subbing with good ol' Crom Faeyr), since it's superfluous with the gauntlet. BTW, i'm using the True GM and BGEE version of GM in my calculations, since I'm assuming BG2EE would retain it... if not you can mod it like in classic.
Equipment: Belt of Fire Giant Strength (22 Str), Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, Grandmaster (*****)in MH + Spec (**) in OH
Staff of the Ram+6 (4 APR): 3.5(Staff) + 12(Crushing) + 2.5(Piercing) + 10(Str) + 5(Wpn Spec) + 1(2HWS) + 2(Gauntlets) = 36 x 4APR Net Avg Damage over 1 Round (if all hits land): 144
Good maths, but you have to take into account (sorry if somebody told it before) the chance for critical hits and critical misses. The chance for crit. hits is higher in the case of 2 H weapons (10% chance for 2H, 5% chance for 2WF, considering you get one attack more with 2WF that is 40% chance vs. 25% chance), the chance for crit miss is higher for 2 handed fighting (as the more attacks you have the higher the chances to get a crit. miss), and all that will change your numbers
And one small thing more, the chances for your MH landing a blow are higher than for your OH (as you attack with -2 penalty). That basically means you can´t compare exactly both attacks. If the MH attacks hits 80% of times (to say a number), the OH attack will hit slightly less
The chance for a critical miss is not increased for dual wield. You get more critical misses on average because you do more attacks, but the CHANCE will remain exactly the same (5%). The NUMBER of critical misses increases to be sure, but this is largely canceled out by the fact that you also do more attacks, i.e. more overall damage. How relevant CMs become then, depends on the implementation of CM penalties in BG2, of which I am unsure. I did some rudimentary testing on the fly and did not notice any penalties, but that is anecdotal at best.
Something similar is true for the increased critical strike chance; while you do have double the chance for 2h, it is not enough of an increase to offset the lower APR. Yes, even taking into account the OH penalties. Not to mention that using the Critical Strike HLA makes the critical chance bonus of 2h-mastery completely useless.
The chance for a critical miss is not increased for dual wield. You get more critical misses on average because you do more attacks, but the CHANCE will remain exactly the same (5%). The NUMBER of critical misses increases to be sure, but this is largely canceled out by the fact that you also do more attacks, i.e. more overall damage. How relevant CMs become then, depends on the implementation of CM penalties in BG2, of which I am unsure. I did some rudimentary testing on the fly and did not notice any penalties, but that is anecdotal at best.
Something similar is true for the increased critical strike chance; while you do have double the chance for 2h, it is not enough of an increase to offset the lower APR. Yes, even taking into account the OH penalties. Not to mention that using the Critical Strike HLA makes the critical chance bonus of 2h-mastery completely useless.
Sorry if I was not clear enough. Of course, the chance for getting a CM is the same PER ATTACK, BUT YOU WONT GET THE SAME CHANCE OF CMs in a given ROUND, as you have more attacks (so more chances of getting a CM overall) dual wielding.
Anyway, after some maths, takign into account CMs and CHs in 20 rounds of attacks, I think you are right, dual wielding is sligthly better. The only thing I didnt take into account in my numbers is the fact that the OH weapons attacks at -2.
The chance for a critical miss is not increased for dual wield. You get more critical misses on average because you do more attacks, but the CHANCE will remain exactly the same (5%). The NUMBER of critical misses increases to be sure, but this is largely canceled out by the fact that you also do more attacks, i.e. more overall damage. How relevant CMs become then, depends on the implementation of CM penalties in BG2, of which I am unsure. I did some rudimentary testing on the fly and did not notice any penalties, but that is anecdotal at best.
Something similar is true for the increased critical strike chance; while you do have double the chance for 2h, it is not enough of an increase to offset the lower APR. Yes, even taking into account the OH penalties. Not to mention that using the Critical Strike HLA makes the critical chance bonus of 2h-mastery completely useless.
Sorry if I was not clear enough. Of course, the chance for getting a CM is the same PER ATTACK, BUT YOU WONT GET THE SAME CHANCE OF CMs in a given ROUND, as you have more attacks (so more chances of getting a CM overall) dual wielding.
Anyway, after some maths, takign into account CMs and CHs in 20 rounds of attacks, I think you are right, dual wielding is sligthly better. The only thing I didnt take into account in my numbers is the fact that the OH weapons attacks at -2.
Since Critical Misses happen on rolls of a 1 regardless of THAC0 I tend to see them and critical hits as thing that cancel each other out.
But with Two-Handed weapon style...again as stated prior the bonus to crit chance essentially gives you on more normal attack range of damage when you think about it.
The critical miss/critical hit calculation will mean a roughly 5% increase in total damage by the two-handed weapon using character (on rolls on a d20 of anything but 19 the damage profile is the same for dual and two-handed so a 100% increase 1 out of 20 times means a 5% net increase).
That increase has been factored into some of the calculations on this thread.
Good maths, but you have to take into account (sorry if somebody told it before) the chance for critical hits and critical misses. The chance for crit. hits is higher in the case of 2 H weapons (10% chance for 2H, 5% chance for 2WF, considering you get one attack more with 2WF that is 40% chance vs. 25% chance), the chance for crit miss is higher for 2 handed fighting (as the more attacks you have the higher the chances to get a crit. miss), and all that will change your numbers.
Just wanted to point out that this is not the correct way to calculate the probability of critical hitting (or critical missing, or any on-hit random chance event) in a round when you have mulitple APR. Here's the correct way: 1- {(1-[event probability])^(APR)} = probability of event occurring in one round So with the 2H weapons/vs dual wielding example you were talking about, the probabilies would be 34.39% and 22.62% respectively.
Here's the correct way: 1- {(1-[event probability])^(APR)} = probability of event occurring in one round
Mmm. That's the probability of the event occurring one or more times in one round.
If we're looking for the damage contribution, your calculation isn't particularly useful.
The correct way would be more like: - Rolls which miss: assign 0 damage to these rolls - Rolls which hit normally: assign expected normal damage to these rolls - Rolls which crit: assign expected crit damage to these rolls Sum over all possible rolls, divide result by 20.
If you have a non-trivial chance to miss, the contribution from doubling the crit range will exceed 5% expected additional damage. As an edge case, consider attacking an enemy who you can only hit if you roll a 19 or a 20. Your expected damage is, say, 1d8+10 = 14.5 expected damage, 29 expected crit damage.
Normally your expected damage per attack is (14.5 + 29) / 20 = 2.175 dpa. 2H style gives you (29 + 29) / 20 = 2.9 dpA, which is a 0.726 dpA difference, which is 25% of 2.9 (and 33% of 2.174), so in this very contrived example, Two Handed Style granted a +25% or a +33% increase in expected damage per attack.
Once you have your dpA calculated, you can just add those up across apr (attacks per round) to get expected dpR.
Note that it's impossible to calculate dpA without knowing your target AC and your THAC0.
Here's the correct way: 1- {(1-[event probability])^(APR)} = probability of event occurring in one round
Mmm. That's the probability of the event occurring one or more times in one round.
If we're looking for the damage contribution, your calculation isn't particularly useful.
The correct way would be more like: - Rolls which miss: assign 0 damage to these rolls - Rolls which hit normally: assign expected normal damage to these rolls - Rolls which crit: assign expected crit damage to these rolls Sum over all possible rolls, divide result by 20.
If you have a non-trivial chance to miss, the contribution from doubling the crit range will exceed 5% expected additional damage. As an edge case, consider attacking an enemy who you can only hit if you roll a 19 or a 20. Your expected damage is, say, 1d8+10 = 14.5 expected damage, 29 expected crit damage.
Normally your expected damage per attack is (14.5 + 29) / 20 = 2.175 dpa. 2H style gives you (29 + 29) / 20 = 2.9 dpA, which is a 0.726 dpA difference, which is 25% of 2.9 (and 33% of 2.174), so in this very contrived example, Two Handed Style granted a +25% or a +33% increase in expected damage per attack.
Once you have your dpA calculated, you can just add those up across apr (attacks per round) to get expected dpR.
Note that it's impossible to calculate dpA without knowing your target AC and your THAC0.
Umm, I think we are both correct, we're just calculating different things. I know how expected values work, but that's not what I was calculating. I was simply showing the probability of whether or not something occurs in a round. I never claimed that it was particularly effective for calculating actual damage output, I was just correcting the other poster, who made the rather common mistake of thinking that the probability would be (chance per attack)x(number of attacks).
Umm, I think we are both correct, we're just calculating different things. I know how expected values work, but that's not what I was calculating. I was simply showing the probability of whether or not something occurs in a round. I never claimed that it was particularly effective for calculating actual damage output, I was just correcting the other poster, who made the rather common mistake of thinking that the probability would be (chance per attack)x(number of attacks).
My misunderstanding, then. I did think we were all talking about expected damage.
Comments
But even so: to get to 10 APR you'd need 5 APR to begin with - which you will NOT have with 2h weapons. The most you can get is 4 APR: 2 from being a 13+ fighter, 1/2 from Specialization, 1 from Grandmastery and 1/2 from the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. With Improved Haste, that would be 8 APR. With dual wield, you gain the above, PLUS 1 from your Offhand (2 with IH) and also potentially 1 from the +APR offhands (Belm/Kundane/Scarlet Ninja-to) maxing out APR at 5 (it can't go higher for baseline) or 10 APR (again, can't go higher). 4(8) of those will be MH-only attacks, the same (or less, if someone else is wearing the Gauntlets) as someone using a 2h.
Equipment: Belt of Fire Giant Strength (22 Str), Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, Grandmaster (*****)in MH + Spec (**) in OH
Spectral Brand+5 + Crom Faeyr (5 APR):
MH: 4.5(Scimitar) + 5(Enchantment) + 3.5(Cold Dmg) + 14(Str) + 5(Wpn Spec) + 2(Gauntlets) = 34 x 4APR
OH: 5(Hammer) + 3(Enchantment) + 5(Hidden Elec Dmg) + 14(Str) + 2(Wpn Spec) + 2(Gauntlets) = 31 x 1APR
Net Avg Damage over 1 Round (if all hits land): 167
Staff of the Ram+6 (4 APR):
3.5(Staff) + 12(Crushing) + 2.5(Piercing) + 10(Str) + 5(Wpn Spec) + 1(2HWS) + 2(Gauntlets) = 36 x 4APR
Net Avg Damage over 1 Round (if all hits land): 144
Ahhhh, so I can't to 10...hrmn....unless I use GWW.
hrmn.....that means my last post is wrong @Madhax...but can be adjusted.
SoTR with 8 attacks and Critical Strike would do 992 Damage over 2 rounds then....still beating Foebane...just with less attacks.
What happens if you factor in the 0.5 percent chance of a critical miss?
Since it could be either mainhand or offhand that misses...average out the two in terms of damage, 34 and 31....that comes to 32.5...divide that in half, 16.25....and subtract that from your 167 total...you get 150.75
You still beat the SotR but not by much at that point..and you needed Crom Faeyr to do it!
(Note this is oversimplified...odds are really that it would be your main that misses...which would make you an even 150.)
Now does improved haste and GWW STACK? Or does the 10 APR limit hold like I think it does?
I also ♥ sword and shield in BG. Missile weapons are very dangerous in BG (a point made above many times).
Honestly, for the most part, you can't really go wrong here. Think of the character, first, then match proficiencies to optimize the character. I am playing a cavalier, so the limit of how many stars per weapon means I don't 'lose' as much by putting points in to sword and shield. I wanted a shield-carrying character, so I'm optimizing that.
I would love sword and shield to add a shield bash of some sort (maybe a 10% chance of an extra attack (bludgeoning) for 1-4 damage (buckler), 1-6 (med), 1-8 large, 2-8 tower? - or is that OP?) that comes with the style.
Also, a final note on sword and shield, it's great for buckler users, as they get help against arrows (thieves, right? As well as the weak
The baseline critical miss should be roughly equivalent though I think... I'm not sure if a roll of 19 (2HWS) or the Critical HLAs guarantees a hit even if the mob is immune to critical damage.
And I purposely chose an alternative to FotA+5 to compare DW prowess in comparison to the best 2H to drive home the point of the power of APR. I chose Crom Faeyr, because that's the next logical DPS offhand if you don't use one of the +APR swords. Even with a less powerful MH, it still rivals/surpasses SotR and that says a lot about the importance of APR. I think most of the other weapon alternatives (Storm Star, Angurvadal, Foebane, etc.) do about as much as Spectral Brand, but none of these damage comparisons even factor in the various bonuses the MH provides. Let's face it though, nothing really comes close to FotA+5 in sheer damage.
Dual wielding – more apr, more damage.
2H – Highest damaging weapons and crit bonus.
Single weapon – 2 AC bonus as good as any shield + crit bonus.
Sword and Shield – Missile weapons are a genuine threat, but there are other ways to boost missile defense so it’s still the worst option really.
No style – E.g. A F(3)->T dual would be able to GM in one weapon and specialise in another.
In SoA (pre-HLAs) dual wielding is clearly the best option. Belm/Kundane are available early and once you have Imp. Haste no other style comes close in damage terms regardless of crit bonuses. AC bonuses are superseded by improved equipment.
In ToB HLAs narrow the field somewhat but dual wielding is still superior. Dual wielding with Imp. Haste is still better than GWW with another style as you can activate another ability in the round be it Critical Strike, casting a spell, quaffing a potion, etc. I don’t see how there can be any argument.
In reality, the way the game handles things is you're hard capped at 5 APR. GWW and IH halves the usual round time from 6 seconds to 3 seconds, and thats why your char screen says 10 APR.
Hrmn....that's a GREAT point about the piercing damage. I wonder how we can confirm that?
Single Weapon Style: Swashbuckler, MONK (only one they can use), Kensai and Kensai/Mage
Two-Handed: Any Paladin, some Fighters, Beastmasters, Cleric/Thief
Sword and Shield Style: Half-Orc Fighter/Cleric (I don't particularly like this style, I did try it out once though. I dissuade people I introduce to the BG series from this style)
Two Weapon Fighting: Fighters, all Rangers except Beastmasters and Archers, Fighter/Cleric, Kensai and Kensai/Mage (as @Aosaw said, I start off with Single Weapon for the AC bonus and then move on to two weapons), Swashbuckler (once you have decent AC and the proficiency points for it, it is a reliable way to get more attacks and if you go with Belm it can make your swashbuckler deal out hefty damage in addition to his trap-like skills).
I kind of wish Ranged Weapons had a few style choices, though I can't think of what kind of bonuses they would get. Maybe something like two arrows in the first shot of a round for bonus damage? Or extra speed Factor/Crit/damage bonus like some of the other styles have? I don't see AC bonus fitting in, but a 19-20 Crit would be appreciated for those who Arch.
Right now with two normal weapons and GM, improved haste boosts a high level fighter to 8 attacks per round. If you add in the Gauntlets of Extraordinary specialization and the bonus APR from Belm, etc., is this just going to add up to 9 as in BG2 or will it get rolled to 10? That isn't clear to me.
In normal BG2, using two normal weapons and GM got you only 7 attacks per round with improved haste. Adding Belm and the Gauntlets pushed you up to 9.
It isn't clear to me that the EE with GM will cap out at 9 attacks per round when normal weapons with GM and the Gauntlets would hit 9 attacks per round before the APR bonus from Belm, etc. If that is the case, then you might as well wield something much better in the offhand and still have 9 attacks per round in the EE.
If I am playing a Duel or multiclass fighter thief
I will go duel weild
or a Paladin will go for the 2 handed Style
if I am playing a fighter I am more likely to go like a Kaigain like tank
with Shield
than I thought. Good discussion! (Too bad there isn't a Cliff Notes of it.)
Also: it's nice to have Grand Mastery.
TL;DR Version of the Thread
- dual-wield deals more damage than 2h
- APR is the biggest contributor to your damage
- shields become weaker the higher you go in levels throughout the trilogy
- single-weapon spec is almost useless
Did I miss anything? Most of the discussion is arguments proving these points, particularly the first two.
Sword and Shield is better if you want a tank.
Single-weapon...okay, honestly not sure what that's useful for. I guess it's better than early shields, but by the time you get enchanted shields you're better off using S&S
Two-weapon and two-handed weapon are good for DPS, using one or the other is really just a matter of flavour.
For BG2, however, I would answer this differently -- in that case I tend to go with a 2-handed weapon if my warrior is strength-oriented or dual-wield if dexterity-oriented (but I stress that that's purely an RPG decision than an actual statement as to which of those two is better -- either will do).
And one small thing more, the chances for your MH landing a blow are higher than for your OH (as you attack with -2 penalty). That basically means you can´t compare exactly both attacks. If the MH attacks hits 80% of times (to say a number), the OH attack will hit slightly less
Something similar is true for the increased critical strike chance; while you do have double the chance for 2h, it is not enough of an increase to offset the lower APR. Yes, even taking into account the OH penalties. Not to mention that using the Critical Strike HLA makes the critical chance bonus of 2h-mastery completely useless.
Anyway, after some maths, takign into account CMs and CHs in 20 rounds of attacks, I think you are right, dual wielding is sligthly better. The only thing I didnt take into account in my numbers is the fact that the OH weapons attacks at -2.
Since Critical Misses happen on rolls of a 1 regardless of THAC0 I tend to see them and critical hits as thing that cancel each other out.
But with Two-Handed weapon style...again as stated prior the bonus to crit chance essentially gives you on more normal attack range of damage when you think about it.
That increase has been factored into some of the calculations on this thread.
1- {(1-[event probability])^(APR)} = probability of event occurring in one round
So with the 2H weapons/vs dual wielding example you were talking about, the probabilies would be 34.39% and 22.62% respectively.
If we're looking for the damage contribution, your calculation isn't particularly useful.
The correct way would be more like:
- Rolls which miss: assign 0 damage to these rolls
- Rolls which hit normally: assign expected normal damage to these rolls
- Rolls which crit: assign expected crit damage to these rolls
Sum over all possible rolls, divide result by 20.
If you have a non-trivial chance to miss, the contribution from doubling the crit range will exceed 5% expected additional damage. As an edge case, consider attacking an enemy who you can only hit if you roll a 19 or a 20. Your expected damage is, say, 1d8+10 = 14.5 expected damage, 29 expected crit damage.
Normally your expected damage per attack is (14.5 + 29) / 20 = 2.175 dpa.
2H style gives you (29 + 29) / 20 = 2.9 dpA, which is a 0.726 dpA difference, which is 25% of 2.9 (and 33% of 2.174), so in this very contrived example, Two Handed Style granted a +25% or a +33% increase in expected damage per attack.
Once you have your dpA calculated, you can just add those up across apr (attacks per round) to get expected dpR.
Note that it's impossible to calculate dpA without knowing your target AC and your THAC0.
Cheers! -- N