Oh wow i'm really impressed at your work, and even more enthusiastic at each release you make ! These icons do look nice, the background glow is all you need, no need for a small icon in a corner or anything. I also think that the silver icons may be just overkill, a darker white may be all that you need
@Mordeus While it does not specifically state half-orcs are allowed, the orc deities listed in Monster Mythology are canon to Forgotten Realms, and do allow half-orc worshipers.
But I must say, this is kind of re-inventing the wheel here. The Full Plate & Packing Steel mod already does this, and it works with lots of items added by other mods, and it can itself be modified by editing a text file in its data folder (thebiglist.txt). Rather than make a bunch of armor changes yourselves, you guys could simply bundle a modified thebiglist.txt with your files, and suggest that players apply FPPS with your settings. It would likely save a ton of work, and it would encourage inter-mod compatibility.
It's one thing I've thought but haven't yet said as I've been reading about this mod: it's VERY ambitious, and is spreading out to affect many parts of the game. That will tend to make it incompatible with other mods, which will reduce the number of people who will use this. (E.g. I simply won't play without SCS and FPPS, period, end of story. So if FoF isn't compatible with those, I won't use it.) Look at the name itself - Faiths of Faerun. Why does that mod contain armor changes, and a nonweapon proficiency system? Better, I think, to compartmentalize, by breaking it into multiple mods that work together, with each changing a distinct area of game files.
Firstly, thanks for the feedback, I don't take it critically at all, if everyone just told us the mod was amazing it would just turn into mine and mordeus' version of the game, rather than an all around improved version of it. The negative feedback, when it is constructive, will most likely be far more useful.
The armor rework was a pet project of mine and I do understand that other people have done it before, and I have no doubt they have done it very very well. For me developing it was due to a number of reasons:
1. I could bring something else to the table to differentiate the mod 2. I could prevent myself from burning out on just making kits all of the time 3. Most importantly - It's something that I have control over and can ensure guaranteed compatibility with the mod.
For point 3 some people would say that I am trying to lock other modders out, and I guess to some extent I can see why people may think that. As a result in the next version the armor rework will be completely optional, and if people want to use refinements, FPPS or anything else that will be absolutely fine. The armor rework can be a standalone mod and no part of my mod depends on it (or vice versa).
As an illustration of my point, I saw in a previous thread that you are waiting for Item Revisions and Spell Revisions. It would be relatively easy for me to emulate all of the features of those mods and include them with this mod as standalone optional components, with guaranteed compatibility. I wouldn't ever do that without permission because I would be devastated if someone stole my work. Looking at what item revisions offers i'm actually quite jealous that i didn't think of all of that stuff first.
But hopefully that shows where i'm coming from with developing a system with the same goals as some other mods. I don't mean that to come across as being nasty, just a clear explanation.
You could get the same effect, of course, by having different components of a single mod, but if they're not thematically linked, I don't see a benefit to that. And there is a benefit to splitting things up, in that you can debug and polish one group of changes and get that mod really perfect, and then move on to working on another one. Rather than having a single monolithic mod where you tell users "the spells are working well, but the proficiency system is still in beta" or something like that. Consider, e.g., how demigvrs over at Gibberlings 3 keeps Spell Revisions separate from Item Revisions, separate from (the never-released) Kit Revisions. Each does one thing, and does it well.
Anyway, just musing... it's your mod, do what you think best. I hope this doesn't come off as overly critical, because regardless of whether I personally use a mod, I think what you're doing is great and all modders should be encouraged. I'm just trying to give the perspective of a long-time mod user, which is that there is a danger in trying to do too much with one big mod.
I think in the future the chances are the title of the mod will be changed, and each component will be included but separately installable. At the moment it seems like myself and mordeus have made this huge heap of content and it's not really feasible to test it piece by piece, which is what I think mordeus said (the comments are on the last page now). It may even be that the mod is broken down into system changes and kit additions, or something along those lines. At the moment I think I can speak for both of use when we say we just want to get stuff out there, get feedback on it, then get it polished up and ready for release. Once we are out of beta we can seriously consider how best to move forward.
Also, thank you very much for all of your help with the Mac version, it is greatly appreciated.
As a final thought though, I think you are spot on with the dangers of overreaching, but ONLY if you don't give users the options to pick and choose the pieces they want, and this is something I am working on implementing. Compatibility and choice will be high up on the list.
How will multi-classing and dual-classing with this work? I'm making an assumption that a multi-class cleric can talk to the same person on creation. With dual class, if they are say a fighter (or kensai) and then when they return to Candlekeep later, are they able to talk to them then?
The Orc deities are really tricky to bring in because Monster Mythology uses an earlier template for Specialty Priests, kinda in the style of the Specialty Priests from the Greyhawk supplement From The Ashes (1992). So they are missing important information like a title other than Priest of Gruumsh, traits other than spheres and equipment or any deity specific spells. We could add those in but they'd be inferior to the other kits. There's actually alot of demi-human gods (particularly Goblin, Orc and Demon deities) that would be really interesting inclusions but they're just not detailed enough.
I thought of combining the deity Prestige Classes from 3ed with the source material of Monster Mythology. So we could have a kit like Eye of Gruumsh but it was still missing enough unique traits. What could be done is to switch the role of Hextor with that of Gruumsh, so instead of a Battlescourge of Hextor... it would be Battlescourge of Gruumsh. Then we'd restrict that kit for Half-Orcs only, just to give Half-Orcs something unique to them. So I'll change the poll to reflect this.
As for the Gloryaxe of Heironeous, that could be discarded since it largely overlaps with the Holy Justice of Torm (not to mention the Gloryaxe is a little overpowered in comparison). We may bring in the Glyphs used in the Heironeous kit but that could be done via the Runecaster. So I'll delete that from the poll.
---
@Evinfuilt I don't think we've put any restrictions on multi and dual-classing yet. So I think it should work with a multi-class character. But I think in the end we are just going to forbid the specialty priests from multi-class combinations on the grounds of balance, since they are fairly powerful as is. Not to mention that in the case of the multi-class specialty priests, you'd lose the kit description. Besides the 2ed rules largely forbids the multi-classing of Specialty Priests. Although there are some exceptions.
We might keep the ability to dual-class from and into a Specialty Priest. I'm not so sure how that actually works in regards to the p&p rules. Or really how it works in game.
But the script works upon the moment you become a cleric. So I assume that when you dual into one, the celestial should appear at the point you do. As for the Candlekeep map, I think there's actually two different ones. So the Celestial will be there waiting at the tutorial Candlekeep map but when you revisit Candlekeep in a post-tutorial map, it shouldn't be there.
---
@Callimachus Would it be ok to combine aspects of the Lythari kit with the Rillifane Rallathil's Skinwalker kit? Since both are shapeshifters.
@Evinfuilt at the moment dual-classing and multi-classing remain the same as they always were. You can dual class from a kitted cleric to a standard trueclass, or from another class to a standard cleric. There isn't yet any functionality to choose a kit after you have dual classed to a cleric, but I will at least look into adding it - on the one hand there are concerns over possible balance issues, which is why I think the makers of BG never allowed dual-classing to kits. On the other hand, it would be nice to be able to select your god when you become a cleric.
Multi-classes with kits are proving to be extremely tricky, they can work, but never perfectly, and only if you edit the .cre file when installing a mod, e.g. by using weidu. If you try to do it in game the system won't properly use the kit ability file or show the kit details. There may be a clever way around this, but neither myself nor Mordeus have found it yet.
So currently If you make a multi or dual class to a cleric you will have the same equipment restrictions and sphere access as the standard cleric (i.e. one who doesn't worship one specific deity).
Ok, did a second draft of the innate skill icons. Can't test the colour of them in game at the moment, but I might as well make .bams for them if the users approve of the style.
@Callimachus Would it be ok to combine aspects of the Lythari kit with the Rillifane Rallathil's Skinwalker kit? Since both are shapeshifters.
I think the main difference is that Lythari are good werewolves/lycanthropes (aka wolf-elves) that are considered as a different race, not really a kit while the Rillifane Rallathil's Skinwalker are more akin to druids, with multiples shapeshifting forms.
@Jaeldyn It's not something we have really properly talked about, it may be on the cards for the future, the idea is probably relatively easy to implement. However @corsymyr does already have a very popular subraces mod if you wanted to try that out for now.
@callimachus I won't be able to do much tomorrow but I can work on a more detailed breakdown of what is included.
@Jaeldyn Eventually yes, I added that as one of the options in the voting form. So it depends on how popular it gets. At the moment the reception to it is pretty mixed. But only 2ed Forgotten Realms races will be added, so that's quite a limited number. So stuff like Tieflings, Aasimar, Genasi, etc... won't be included.
The general idea is to have NPCs littered around the tutorial map of Candlekeep, where you can join their culture/subrace.
@callimachus I've been reading up on the Lythari and it seems to be listed both in the races section and kit section of Demihumans of the Realms. It might just be easier to have it as a race, since it says that the Lythari can be a fighter, cleric or fighter/cleric.
So from Demihumans of the Realms the valid subraces are...
Elves - Gold, Moon, Wild, Sea, Drow, Half-Elf, Lythari and Winged. Dwarves - Shield, Gold, Duergar, Jungle and Arctic. Gnomes - Rock, Forest and Deep. Halfling - Hairfoot, Stout and Tallfellow.
They list Wildspace Elves as a valid subrace since they exist in Evermeet, Evereska and Cormanthor. But not sure if we should add it. Also might as well add Half-Ogres as an option for Half-Orcs. I think that's all the valid 2ed subraces.
As for humans, I originally thought of adding in ethnicities. Like a human from Chult, Thay, Rashemen, etc... But we may just go with the plain old Human since there doesn't seem to be any 2ed guides that give abilities to various Human 'subraces'.
Ok just added the new innate skill icons to a new version of the mod (v0.4d). I tested them in BG2 but I have no idea how they look in BG:EE. So I'm going to have to rely on the eyes of everyone. Not to mention that I might have missed out on creating some icons for some skills. So hopefully this is the last set of icons to replace the old. That is until we starting creating new spells and adding in new HLA/Low-Level Abilities.
Also it's probably time to start receiving suggestions for the name of the mod since the placeholder name is getting a tad redundant. I'm thinking something along the lines of "2ed Kit Overhaul (Mod)" so the abbreviation would be "2KO". So the focus would be that the mod is about pure 2ed concepts and the use of Overhaul to reference the developers of BG:EE.
---
Also just 6 more votes required for the voting form, until we'll decide on the next step of the project.
So far it looks like people have voted that our priorities should be the following:
1st: Rogue Kits and More Specialty Priests 2nd: Warrior Kits 3rd: More Arcane Spells 4th: Priest and Wizard Kits 5th: Sub-Races 6th: Low-Level Abilities
---
Just had an idea of how to handle Druid kits. Just like how a Celestial comes to you asking you to pick a Specialty Priest, we could have a Nymph come to you asking what Druid Branch you belong to. So you pick between Arctic, Desert, Gray, Forest, Jungle, Mountain, Plains and Swamp. With each one having certain spheres and traits but importantly it will decide on what sort of form you can shapeshift into. So an Arctic Druid would have option like Winter Wolves, Frost Salamander, Ice Troll, etc... While a Mountain Druid would have options like Mountain Bears, Mountain Lion, etc...
Then for the Mage Specialists we could have a hooded mage approach you to ask what specialty you want to master.
It might be better to have the Specialty Priests, Druid Branches and Mage Specialists as its' own standalone kit in the Character Creation menu. Firstly so we don't do any major changes to the core Cleric/Mage/Druid class and secondly because we can put a description of the subkit options in the Character Creation screen. Which is important so the player can be prepared for the subkit's requirements.
Thirdly it would then allow us to disable the weapon proficiencies at the Character Creation screen, so the player doesn't accidentally put points into a weapon they can no longer use after taking a subkit. Then there's the option to either give the player a bonus point at level 2 to make up for their lost proficiency level or when the player chooses a Specialty Priest/Druid Branch/Mage Specialist they start off as Level 0, and then after changing can immediately level up to level 1.
@Mordeus Nevermind, I read it all. Amazing job! Btw, there are 2 bugged/OP spells: Anyspell and Imbue With Spell Ability. They have no downsides at the moment, I mean...the downsides do not work.
@SpaceInvader Yeah the Dweomerkeeper is one of the more powerful kits. But I guess that's expected considering she is the goddess of magic. The downside to Anyspell is something that can't be modded in. The sourcebook says the priest must borrow a scroll from a wizard to be able to cast it but that's just not viable in BG. We could increase the casting time by combing the casting time of 7 with the average spell casting time to make it not so overpowered. Unfortunately it seems the opcode that makes the spell possible just doesn't factor in the extra casting time of the selected spell.
But at the same time it's not as bad as say the Azuth kit who can get all the spells from either Invocation or Alteration with a casting time reduced by 3. There's some fairly strong kits but the demi-power kits aren't so powerful.
As for Imbue with Spell Ability, it does remove an extra spell from the caster's spellbook as penalty for giving a spell to a creature?
Actually, the single most powerful class of specialty priests in the FR are probably the Skyweavers of Isis (Powers & Pantheons p. 116) - that class is the equivalent of the drow in advantages, without any of the disadvantages.
Ok, going to start up plans for the next stage of the mod. The votes have indicated that what we should pursue next is More Arcane Spells and Mage Kits.
This is a fairly tricky since there's way more Arcane spells out there and the extra mage kits are so unique to themselves. So I'm going to break it down into two parts.
---
1. Assess the current deficiencies in spell selection. So we should be aiming for near equal representation of schools per level. Hopefully with at least three school spells per level as a minimum (Divination however is going to be fairly bare).
We will have to move some spells around to their proper p&p levels and schools because there's alot of Abjuration magic in the game, especially at certain levels. Some of which are dual school spells that could be better suited as something like Alteration.
I'll post an excel spreadsheet with the entire mapping out of the spells and with their p&p changes for feedback.
2. After the general pool of spells has been modified and increased, the next step to work on kit specific spells. So Wu Jen, Red Wizard, Ninja, etc... magic will be added, and updates to Wild Magic will happen. We'll work on this from a case by case basis, so the Wu Jen would be released, then the Red Wizard, etc...
---
The tricky thing at play here is dealing with the Spell Menu present at Character Creation. It fits in fine with the main 8 mage specialist kits but there's conflicts with the new kits. So we have two choices here.
1. Disable the character creation spell menu but give a new mage a set of scrolls to help them start off. These scrolls would be specifically designed to fit in with their specialty. So an Invoker would get offensive spells, an Abjurer gets protective spells, etc...
2. Run through the kit at the character creation stage as a non-spell caster but change the class id immediately during gameplay. So if it starts off as a fighter, it then can turn into a mage with all the mage abilities. This isn't a solution if you plan on importing the character to BG2:EE cause then the spell menu would then pop up. This is just a theory, so it could fail.
3. Or we can just not bring in Mage kits and just add in Arcane spells instead.
Isn't it possible to add kits that don't show up on the menu? If so, would it perhaps work to have the game run a check to see if you have a specialization at the beginning of the game and if you don't, it summons a hooded wizard who can give you a kit.
@Tome Yeah it is possible to add kits through the method we've done with the Specialty Priests. The idea is to condense the 8 specialty mages into one kit, so upon gameplay you pick your specialty. That way we free up 8 slots in the mage menu.
The problem is really with the spell menu that pops up asking you to select some spells to memorize. You can only restrict it via the 8 main schools, so it makes other kits incredibly hard to implement since their restrictions exist across the schools.
@SpaceInvader We wish we could do that but there's a problem. The spell menu is hardcoded so the spells are the same for each kit or Arcane class. So if we changed one spell in the menu, it would change it for everyone else. We could make spell files that override the ones in the menu but that would cause damage to mage enemies. So if we changed Magic Missile to something else, then every mage in the game who should be able to use Magic Missile would end up casting the new spell.
To get around that would mean making edited copies of every character file, switching their spells to link to the new ones. Or looking through the spells to find ones that aren't used by enemy characters like the Wild Magic ones. But there's only around 3 that are unused.
It's best to just disable the menu and rely on scrolls for now. Hopefully the developers will implement editable spell memorization menus. Then we can add new spells to the Character Creation screen that vary from mage kit.
Besides it seems that disabling the menu could make things work out in line with p&p rules. Instead of choosing your spells, in 2ed you roll a 1d12 dice with each of the 1-12 numbers assigned to a spell. And whatever numbers come up are the spells you start with. Each mage kit gets a list of 12 spells that are their possible starter spells. So we can make it that upon creation, the game randomly generates a set of scrolls taken from 12 possible outcomes.
We won't be able to make Sorcerer kits at the moment because they don't even have the option to learn via scrolls, so the spell menu is vital to them. But if you can't edit the content of the menu, then you can't do much with Sorcerers. That's why the Dragon Disciple kit didn't add anything to a Sorcerer's magic but rather subtracted from it. It's a shame but we'll have to wait til the developers do something about it.
@Tome Yeah it is possible to add kits through the method we've done with the Specialty Priests. The idea is to condense the 8 specialty mages into one kit, so upon gameplay you pick your specialty. That way we free up 8 slots in the mage menu.
Wouldn't this cause a problem with people being able to select spells that they wouldn't be able to pick due to their specialty? (ie; A wizard picking Evocation spells at character creation and then choosing Enchanter in-game).
Just a small point on this. In v0.1 the spell we use to remove priest spells also removed all wizard spells. This caused the game to crash when you made a cleric mage and clicked start game as the mage had no spells. As soon as the wizard spells were left alone it worked fine.
I'm pretty sure the mage would need at least one spell to start with just to prevent the game from crashing, however what could be done is to remove all spells then immediately afterwards add one or two cantrips based on specialisation.
The cantrip spells are a tad useless. I think an easier solution would be just to ditch the arcane spells from the remove spell file. I actually don't remember the reasoning I had for including them in originally. Maybe it was something related to Sorcerers.
I think with adding in the Arcane spells, that we'll just do the level 1-5 spells. level 6+ ones can be left for when BG2:EE comes out.
One thing I've noticed is that certain Arcane spells don't seem to have p&p origins. Or at least go under slightly different names and also some have restricted access. Mantle (Alustriel's Mantle) and Improved Mantle (Alustriel's Improved Mantle) are spells reserved for Harpers or the Seven Sisters, so they'll have to be extremely rare to obtain. Same with Khelben's Warding Whip which by p&p standards is exclusive to the wizard Khelben himself.
Speaking of which, I never did find the origin for the Divine Spell called Doom. Hence why it wasn't included, other unknowns were included because they at least had listed spheres.
We also have to figure out how to distribute these spells. I'm really not familiar with how loot works but implementing something like the Gibberlings 3 Randomizer mod except purely for scrolls would be ideal.
I wonder if we should strip all the scrolls clean from store files and build them up with new ones. We also have to make some new storekeepers for Red Wizards, Witches, Bards, Oriental Mages, Elven Magic, Evil/Lich magic and the Harper exclusive spells. Some will have to be included fairly early.
---
Now the most controversial change that I think should be made is applying the p&p restrictions to Specialist Mages.
Abjurer can't use Alteration or Illusion Conjurer can't use Divination or Invocation Diviner can't use Conjuration Enchanter can't use Invocation or Necromancy Illusionist can't use Necromancy, Invocation or Abjuration. Invoker can't use Enchantment or Conjuration Necromancer can't use Illusion or Enchantment Transmuter can't use Abjuration or Necromancy
BG2 is overly generous to the Specialist Mages and for some reason BG1 decided to only apply p&p rules to the Diviner and Invoker while leaving the other 6 untouched. The most affected of the group is the Illusionist but it makes sense since the vast majority of them are Gnomes.
I'm eager to apply p&p rules to them because the other mage kits have some fairly strong restrictions. The Incantatrix has 4 oppositional schools and each Elven Dualist specialist has 6 oppositional schools. The Elven Dualist is quite an interesting specialist mage because it specializes in completely oppositional schools for the tradeoff of two bonus spell memorization slots instead of the usual 1 for specialists.
e.g. Aluakkar only uses Abjuration and Alteration Dijakkar only uses Conjuration and Divination Encikkar only uses Enchantment and Invocation Nelluonkkar only uses Necromancy and Illusion
The names of each Elven Dualist are basically mash-ups of their two schools.
Comments
The armor rework was a pet project of mine and I do understand that other people have done it before, and I have no doubt they have done it very very well. For me developing it was due to a number of reasons:
1. I could bring something else to the table to differentiate the mod
2. I could prevent myself from burning out on just making kits all of the time
3. Most importantly - It's something that I have control over and can ensure guaranteed compatibility with the mod.
For point 3 some people would say that I am trying to lock other modders out, and I guess to some extent I can see why people may think that. As a result in the next version the armor rework will be completely optional, and if people want to use refinements, FPPS or anything else that will be absolutely fine. The armor rework can be a standalone mod and no part of my mod depends on it (or vice versa).
As an illustration of my point, I saw in a previous thread that you are waiting for Item Revisions and Spell Revisions. It would be relatively easy for me to emulate all of the features of those mods and include them with this mod as standalone optional components, with guaranteed compatibility. I wouldn't ever do that without permission because I would be devastated if someone stole my work. Looking at what item revisions offers i'm actually quite jealous that i didn't think of all of that stuff first.
But hopefully that shows where i'm coming from with developing a system with the same goals as some other mods. I don't mean that to come across as being nasty, just a clear explanation. I think in the future the chances are the title of the mod will be changed, and each component will be included but separately installable. At the moment it seems like myself and mordeus have made this huge heap of content and it's not really feasible to test it piece by piece, which is what I think mordeus said (the comments are on the last page now). It may even be that the mod is broken down into system changes and kit additions, or something along those lines. At the moment I think I can speak for both of use when we say we just want to get stuff out there, get feedback on it, then get it polished up and ready for release. Once we are out of beta we can seriously consider how best to move forward.
Also, thank you very much for all of your help with the Mac version, it is greatly appreciated.
As a final thought though, I think you are spot on with the dangers of overreaching, but ONLY if you don't give users the options to pick and choose the pieces they want, and this is something I am working on implementing. Compatibility and choice will be high up on the list.
New version 0.4c now available for testing.
The Orc deities are really tricky to bring in because Monster Mythology uses an earlier template for Specialty Priests, kinda in the style of the Specialty Priests from the Greyhawk supplement From The Ashes (1992). So they are missing important information like a title other than Priest of Gruumsh, traits other than spheres and equipment or any deity specific spells. We could add those in but they'd be inferior to the other kits. There's actually alot of demi-human gods (particularly Goblin, Orc and Demon deities) that would be really interesting inclusions but they're just not detailed enough.
I thought of combining the deity Prestige Classes from 3ed with the source material of Monster Mythology. So we could have a kit like Eye of Gruumsh but it was still missing enough unique traits. What could be done is to switch the role of Hextor with that of Gruumsh, so instead of a Battlescourge of Hextor... it would be Battlescourge of Gruumsh. Then we'd restrict that kit for Half-Orcs only, just to give Half-Orcs something unique to them. So I'll change the poll to reflect this.
As for the Gloryaxe of Heironeous, that could be discarded since it largely overlaps with the Holy Justice of Torm (not to mention the Gloryaxe is a little overpowered in comparison). We may bring in the Glyphs used in the Heironeous kit but that could be done via the Runecaster. So I'll delete that from the poll.
---
@Evinfuilt I don't think we've put any restrictions on multi and dual-classing yet. So I think it should work with a multi-class character. But I think in the end we are just going to forbid the specialty priests from multi-class combinations on the grounds of balance, since they are fairly powerful as is. Not to mention that in the case of the multi-class specialty priests, you'd lose the kit description. Besides the 2ed rules largely forbids the multi-classing of Specialty Priests. Although there are some exceptions.
We might keep the ability to dual-class from and into a Specialty Priest. I'm not so sure how that actually works in regards to the p&p rules. Or really how it works in game.
But the script works upon the moment you become a cleric. So I assume that when you dual into one, the celestial should appear at the point you do. As for the Candlekeep map, I think there's actually two different ones. So the Celestial will be there waiting at the tutorial Candlekeep map but when you revisit Candlekeep in a post-tutorial map, it shouldn't be there.
---
@Callimachus Would it be ok to combine aspects of the Lythari kit with the Rillifane Rallathil's Skinwalker kit? Since both are shapeshifters.
Multi-classes with kits are proving to be extremely tricky, they can work, but never perfectly, and only if you edit the .cre file when installing a mod, e.g. by using weidu. If you try to do it in game the system won't properly use the kit ability file or show the kit details. There may be a clever way around this, but neither myself nor Mordeus have found it yet.
So currently If you make a multi or dual class to a cleric you will have the same equipment restrictions and sphere access as the standard cleric (i.e. one who doesn't worship one specific deity).
Ok, did a second draft of the innate skill icons. Can't test the colour of them in game at the moment, but I might as well make .bams for them if the users approve of the style.
@Requiem
The readme gives a very general idea, where can I find what kits/specialty priests etc. made the final (current) cut?
@callimachus I won't be able to do much tomorrow but I can work on a more detailed breakdown of what is included.
The general idea is to have NPCs littered around the tutorial map of Candlekeep, where you can join their culture/subrace.
@callimachus I've been reading up on the Lythari and it seems to be listed both in the races section and kit section of Demihumans of the Realms. It might just be easier to have it as a race, since it says that the Lythari can be a fighter, cleric or fighter/cleric.
So from Demihumans of the Realms the valid subraces are...
Elves - Gold, Moon, Wild, Sea, Drow, Half-Elf, Lythari and Winged.
Dwarves - Shield, Gold, Duergar, Jungle and Arctic.
Gnomes - Rock, Forest and Deep.
Halfling - Hairfoot, Stout and Tallfellow.
They list Wildspace Elves as a valid subrace since they exist in Evermeet, Evereska and Cormanthor. But not sure if we should add it. Also might as well add Half-Ogres as an option for Half-Orcs. I think that's all the valid 2ed subraces.
As for humans, I originally thought of adding in ethnicities. Like a human from Chult, Thay, Rashemen, etc... But we may just go with the plain old Human since there doesn't seem to be any 2ed guides that give abilities to various Human 'subraces'.
Also it's probably time to start receiving suggestions for the name of the mod since the placeholder name is getting a tad redundant. I'm thinking something along the lines of "2ed Kit Overhaul (Mod)" so the abbreviation would be "2KO". So the focus would be that the mod is about pure 2ed concepts and the use of Overhaul to reference the developers of BG:EE.
---
Also just 6 more votes required for the voting form, until we'll decide on the next step of the project.
So far it looks like people have voted that our priorities should be the following:
1st: Rogue Kits and More Specialty Priests
2nd: Warrior Kits
3rd: More Arcane Spells
4th: Priest and Wizard Kits
5th: Sub-Races
6th: Low-Level Abilities
---
Just had an idea of how to handle Druid kits. Just like how a Celestial comes to you asking you to pick a Specialty Priest, we could have a Nymph come to you asking what Druid Branch you belong to. So you pick between Arctic, Desert, Gray, Forest, Jungle, Mountain, Plains and Swamp. With each one having certain spheres and traits but importantly it will decide on what sort of form you can shapeshift into. So an Arctic Druid would have option like Winter Wolves, Frost Salamander, Ice Troll, etc... While a Mountain Druid would have options like Mountain Bears, Mountain Lion, etc...
Then for the Mage Specialists we could have a hooded mage approach you to ask what specialty you want to master.
It might be better to have the Specialty Priests, Druid Branches and Mage Specialists as its' own standalone kit in the Character Creation menu. Firstly so we don't do any major changes to the core Cleric/Mage/Druid class and secondly because we can put a description of the subkit options in the Character Creation screen. Which is important so the player can be prepared for the subkit's requirements.
Thirdly it would then allow us to disable the weapon proficiencies at the Character Creation screen, so the player doesn't accidentally put points into a weapon they can no longer use after taking a subkit. Then there's the option to either give the player a bonus point at level 2 to make up for their lost proficiency level or when the player chooses a Specialty Priest/Druid Branch/Mage Specialist they start off as Level 0, and then after changing can immediately level up to level 1.
Btw, there are 2 bugged/OP spells: Anyspell and Imbue With Spell Ability.
They have no downsides at the moment, I mean...the downsides do not work.
But at the same time it's not as bad as say the Azuth kit who can get all the spells from either Invocation or Alteration with a casting time reduced by 3. There's some fairly strong kits but the demi-power kits aren't so powerful.
As for Imbue with Spell Ability, it does remove an extra spell from the caster's spellbook as penalty for giving a spell to a creature?
This is a fairly tricky since there's way more Arcane spells out there and the extra mage kits are so unique to themselves. So I'm going to break it down into two parts.
---
1. Assess the current deficiencies in spell selection. So we should be aiming for near equal representation of schools per level. Hopefully with at least three school spells per level as a minimum (Divination however is going to be fairly bare).
We will have to move some spells around to their proper p&p levels and schools because there's alot of Abjuration magic in the game, especially at certain levels. Some of which are dual school spells that could be better suited as something like Alteration.
I'll post an excel spreadsheet with the entire mapping out of the spells and with their p&p changes for feedback.
2. After the general pool of spells has been modified and increased, the next step to work on kit specific spells. So Wu Jen, Red Wizard, Ninja, etc... magic will be added, and updates to Wild Magic will happen. We'll work on this from a case by case basis, so the Wu Jen would be released, then the Red Wizard, etc...
---
The tricky thing at play here is dealing with the Spell Menu present at Character Creation. It fits in fine with the main 8 mage specialist kits but there's conflicts with the new kits. So we have two choices here.
1. Disable the character creation spell menu but give a new mage a set of scrolls to help them start off. These scrolls would be specifically designed to fit in with their specialty. So an Invoker would get offensive spells, an Abjurer gets protective spells, etc...
2. Run through the kit at the character creation stage as a non-spell caster but change the class id immediately during gameplay. So if it starts off as a fighter, it then can turn into a mage with all the mage abilities. This isn't a solution if you plan on importing the character to BG2:EE cause then the spell menu would then pop up. This is just a theory, so it could fail.
3. Or we can just not bring in Mage kits and just add in Arcane spells instead.
The problem is really with the spell menu that pops up asking you to select some spells to memorize. You can only restrict it via the 8 main schools, so it makes other kits incredibly hard to implement since their restrictions exist across the schools.
@SpaceInvader We wish we could do that but there's a problem. The spell menu is hardcoded so the spells are the same for each kit or Arcane class. So if we changed one spell in the menu, it would change it for everyone else. We could make spell files that override the ones in the menu but that would cause damage to mage enemies. So if we changed Magic Missile to something else, then every mage in the game who should be able to use Magic Missile would end up casting the new spell.
To get around that would mean making edited copies of every character file, switching their spells to link to the new ones. Or looking through the spells to find ones that aren't used by enemy characters like the Wild Magic ones. But there's only around 3 that are unused.
It's best to just disable the menu and rely on scrolls for now. Hopefully the developers will implement editable spell memorization menus. Then we can add new spells to the Character Creation screen that vary from mage kit.
Besides it seems that disabling the menu could make things work out in line with p&p rules. Instead of choosing your spells, in 2ed you roll a 1d12 dice with each of the 1-12 numbers assigned to a spell. And whatever numbers come up are the spells you start with. Each mage kit gets a list of 12 spells that are their possible starter spells. So we can make it that upon creation, the game randomly generates a set of scrolls taken from 12 possible outcomes.
We won't be able to make Sorcerer kits at the moment because they don't even have the option to learn via scrolls, so the spell menu is vital to them. But if you can't edit the content of the menu, then you can't do much with Sorcerers. That's why the Dragon Disciple kit didn't add anything to a Sorcerer's magic but rather subtracted from it. It's a shame but we'll have to wait til the developers do something about it.
I'm pretty sure the mage would need at least one spell to start with just to prevent the game from crashing, however what could be done is to remove all spells then immediately afterwards add one or two cantrips based on specialisation.
I think with adding in the Arcane spells, that we'll just do the level 1-5 spells. level 6+ ones can be left for when BG2:EE comes out.
One thing I've noticed is that certain Arcane spells don't seem to have p&p origins. Or at least go under slightly different names and also some have restricted access. Mantle (Alustriel's Mantle) and Improved Mantle (Alustriel's Improved Mantle) are spells reserved for Harpers or the Seven Sisters, so they'll have to be extremely rare to obtain. Same with Khelben's Warding Whip which by p&p standards is exclusive to the wizard Khelben himself.
Speaking of which, I never did find the origin for the Divine Spell called Doom. Hence why it wasn't included, other unknowns were included because they at least had listed spheres.
We also have to figure out how to distribute these spells. I'm really not familiar with how loot works but implementing something like the Gibberlings 3 Randomizer mod except purely for scrolls would be ideal.
I wonder if we should strip all the scrolls clean from store files and build them up with new ones. We also have to make some new storekeepers for Red Wizards, Witches, Bards, Oriental Mages, Elven Magic, Evil/Lich magic and the Harper exclusive spells. Some will have to be included fairly early.
---
Now the most controversial change that I think should be made is applying the p&p restrictions to Specialist Mages.
Abjurer can't use Alteration or Illusion
Conjurer can't use Divination or Invocation
Diviner can't use Conjuration
Enchanter can't use Invocation or Necromancy
Illusionist can't use Necromancy, Invocation or Abjuration.
Invoker can't use Enchantment or Conjuration
Necromancer can't use Illusion or Enchantment
Transmuter can't use Abjuration or Necromancy
BG2 is overly generous to the Specialist Mages and for some reason BG1 decided to only apply p&p rules to the Diviner and Invoker while leaving the other 6 untouched. The most affected of the group is the Illusionist but it makes sense since the vast majority of them are Gnomes.
I'm eager to apply p&p rules to them because the other mage kits have some fairly strong restrictions. The Incantatrix has 4 oppositional schools and each Elven Dualist specialist has 6 oppositional schools. The Elven Dualist is quite an interesting specialist mage because it specializes in completely oppositional schools for the tradeoff of two bonus spell memorization slots instead of the usual 1 for specialists.
e.g.
Aluakkar only uses Abjuration and Alteration
Dijakkar only uses Conjuration and Divination
Encikkar only uses Enchantment and Invocation
Nelluonkkar only uses Necromancy and Illusion
The names of each Elven Dualist are basically mash-ups of their two schools.