It does not address my previous point. Please show me your numerical evidence and subsequently the statistical testing that you conducted that indicates that 99% of players agree with your position on this subject. Do you even have evidence as to how many people actually visit this forum?
"99%" is a common way to say "almost everyone". If there is further information you might need on sayings, common phrases, manners of speaking. My door is wide open. The tea I can provide perhaps even the milk. Low fat.
You can summon an entire army of forum members if you wish, it indicates an inability of an individual to successfully debate a point of view by themselves.
Well yes, I could summon many people to prove that the Dragon Disciple advantages/disadvantages thing has been widely discussed. And you know why I can? Because I always contributed in those threads with my "inability to successfully debate a point of view by myself". But yeah, by now I could have earned a badge by... I don't know... spamming "Interesting...", "Most interesting...", random necroposting, "To end... like this?" everywhere.
So the real purpose of your debate on this thread is to make an attack me? Unfortunately you have failed and have only demonstrated your own limitations by going down this route.
Your previous replies made me laugh, but this one's epic. Egocentrism at its finest.
The pros of the dragon disciple doesn't make up for the negatives. It's that simple. If the sorcerer class was more stat-dependent (I wouldn't mind a higher int-requirement), then the con-bonus would make more sense. Alternatively, giving the DD some thaco bonuses to make it viable in melee, would also help tremendously.
And @Bhaaldog, you are too politically correct for your own good.
The DD is simply an RP choice for me. A sorcerer is a little OP to begin with in my opinion. The DD is a fun addition as far as I'm concerned despite any disadvantages. It is still a damn powerful class.
I'd like to remind everyone that this is a place for polite and intelligent discussion, not personal attacks and rude behavior. If you have questions about the site's rules, there's a link at the top of the page.
Bhaaldog, I don't mean any harm, but I think you should consider reading SpaceInvader's posts one more time, You said yourself that if so many people don't like the DD kit, Beamdog should remove it, but a few posts later you are asking for evidence for the very same statement you made. I don't understand why would you dislike having Beamdog balance the kit, if so many people, even according to you, don't like it the way it is now.
In addition, I seriously don't understand the benefit of +2 constitution...I thought only warriors get benefit beyond 16 constitution. Or has this been changed in BG EE?
Start with 18 Constitution ... Get to 20 Con ... Merry Christmas, you have a naturally regenerating mage.
In addition, I seriously don't understand the benefit of +2 constitution...I thought only warriors get benefit beyond 16 constitution. Or has this been changed in BG EE?
Start with 18 Constitution ... Get to 20 Con ... Merry Christmas, you have a naturally regenerating mage.
Yeah, but the regeneration is so slow that it's only useful for healing while resting. And by the time you get 20 CON, you're level 15 (1875000 xp), so you'll have access to a variety of more effective sources of healing.
In addition, I seriously don't understand the benefit of +2 constitution...I thought only warriors get benefit beyond 16 constitution. Or has this been changed in BG EE?
Start with 18 Constitution ... Get to 20 Con ... Merry Christmas, you have a naturally regenerating mage.
Yes, but with an Elf Sorcerer you get +1 Dex, -1 Con, 90% resistance to Charm and Sleep effects, +1 to hit with bows and swords, infravision.
A Human/Half-elf Sorcerer can reach 20 Con faster, but that 20 just means a 1hp/60sec regen. Also, that won't stack with a Ring/spell that gives regen.
The class doesnt *have* to be balanced, IMO. Even though I agree that the class is somewhat underwhelming, it can stay the way it is and it wouldnt disturb me - I just like increased variety. If I could choose, I would rather have different choice, such as sub-races, but that is another story
The class doesnt *have* to be balanced, IMO. Even though I agree that the class is somewhat underwhelming, it can stay the way it is and it wouldnt disturb me - I just like increased variety. If I could choose, I would rather have different choice, such as sub-races, but that is another story
This.
I like how they took it from the source material, and made it work with the engine... It doesn't get the claw weapon, blindsense, or growth of wings that the 3rd Edition prestige class does, but well, would those ever work in an Infinity Engine game, claw weapon aside. Huh, and looking at the source material, it looks like they got bonus spells, to compensate for the loss of original spellcasting ability. I'm just going to chalk that up to "Hey, Wizards of the Coast was experimenting when they made this class, just like they were when they made the Hexblade. It's cool.". Still, it's a pretty nice adaptation, if you ask me.
1.-> +2 CON (I don't need it, 15 CON + Manual of Bodily Health, and Sorcerers don't need INT)
2.-> 100% fire resistence: It is redundant with many spells and objets. My sorcerer easily has 127% (maximum) fire, cold, electrical and magic damage resistance and 75% acid resistance.
3.-> -5CA and +20HP: A good Sorcerer never gets hurt.
4.-> The Breath weapon is a joke (8d8 max at level 18, 1/day, It doesn't bypass magic resistance and furthermore it has bugs )
I would love a good sorcerer kit. What a pity
Regeneration with 20 CON 1hp/60sec. Wow! Even if it were 25 CON 1HP/10sec. Not useful for battle.
A better THAC0 progression, more weapon choices, strength bonuses instead con bonus, a better breath weapon...
Well, many things would change if ddis got warrior con bonus stuff, and rogue thac0. Too good? Eh, lose another spell slot. Sure, another slot is more powerful, but this could actually get into combat.
Well, many things would change if ddis got warrior con bonus stuff, and rogue thac0. Too good? Eh, lose another spell slot. Sure, another slot is more powerful, but this could actually get into combat.
Yeah, it would make things interesting... atm its a self nerf sorcerer, you play it the exact same way. Which is pointless... id love the build to be made more relevant.
WHile I do agree with Dragon Disciple having a bit too much disadvantages, and while at first aI did like the STR bonus in another discussion, I'm not really sure now. SInce the big difference between 18 and 19, Dragon Disciples would run around with incredibly high STR stats. If we take an evil DD, with +2 STR from class benefits, he could have a STR of 24 by ToB. I'd rather have some cool and useful dragon-like abilities. Or maybe warrior CON bonuses? DD is not that weak or broken, even compared to a regular sorcerer, so I think it only needs a little buff. The warrion hp bonus would be sooo great, since you don't really benefit from CON above 16, with the bonus points from BG1 and BG2, you could start the game at 12 and stilll get the +2 hp/lvl bonus, although very late game. If you have higher CON to begin with, it feels like wasted points... Even if you give the tomes to others it takes so long for that second point to kick in... (I started my DD with 15 CON).
So, in my vote goes for more spec abilities or warrior CON bonuses. Maybe other weapon profs. THAC0 raise by itself seems a bit irrelevant and useless, piled up with the others seem just too much of a buff for me.
@Senash What's the difference between a Sorcerer with 50 hp and a DD with 150 hp? In my opinion there is none: both of them belong to a class that, with the right spells, can avoid being damaged.
Been skimming through this thread at work, It started out really good and then it turned into a arguing contest lol. Im currently playing DD and am enjoying it, I do see cause for concern in how it will perform in late SoA and ToB but I have faith overhaul will implement high level advantages for their new kits by then.
...yet, MAYBE if you gave them another GOOD strategy, maybe not minmax good, but viable, folks would use it. Thsts also why i support a thac0 boost. If further nerf is needed, less spells per day would still be versatile without being crappy attacker. Overall, itd have less casteryness than a sorcerer, but ability to enter melee on par with a rogue.
I surely hope they implement some buffs at high levels. If they don't, at least buff up the Dragon Breath and increase the number of uses. It's supposed to be the signature spell that defines the class right? It's really hard to properly aim dragon breath to hit the enemies and the damage is just underwhelming. Just like DreadKhan already said, right now Dragon Disciple is like a self-nerfed Sorcerer....
Just thought of something... The redevs probably played the game before, or at least researched to make sure ddis wasnt going to be overpowered, but i suspect they might have been unconciously balancing the ddis for powergamers, forgetting sorcerer is inanely overpowered to begin with. Erm, i guess i am wondering if they remembered that sorc is only overpowered of you pick spells decently. If you are not a powergamer, and thus dont look up great spell choice lists, most folks are... gonna have a bad time if they choose dragon dis, since the bugger gets less spells for a cons bonus?! Sorc cap at 16, and yeah, not everyone rerolls, but most people do. Heck I'd say damn near everyone rerolls, so atm ddis does nothing... and people give up a spell per level? Imo, look at bgee as a project, cuz ddis ought to be boosted.
@Senash What's the difference between a Sorcerer with 50 hp and a DD with 150 hp? In my opinion there is none: both of them belong to a class that, with the right spells, can avoid being damaged.
True. but with a lot of plus HP you may use that time to do some damage instead of protecting yourself.
Comments
But then your character will be close to (or past) 3M XP, at which point it'll be gaining a new HLA every level.
Because I always contributed in those threads with my "inability to successfully debate a point of view by myself".
But yeah, by now I could have earned a badge by... I don't know... spamming "Interesting...", "Most interesting...", random necroposting, "To end... like this?" everywhere.
Alternatively, giving the DD some thaco bonuses to make it viable in melee, would also help tremendously.
And @Bhaaldog, you are too politically correct for your own good.
In regards to how DDs play right now--I have been enjoying mine. But yeah, the breath weapon is a bit underwhelming. It could use a boost.
A Human/Half-elf Sorcerer can reach 20 Con faster, but that 20 just means a 1hp/60sec regen.
Also, that won't stack with a Ring/spell that gives regen.
I like how they took it from the source material, and made it work with the engine... It doesn't get the claw weapon, blindsense, or growth of wings that the 3rd Edition prestige class does, but well, would those ever work in an Infinity Engine game, claw weapon aside.
Huh, and looking at the source material, it looks like they got bonus spells, to compensate for the loss of original spellcasting ability. I'm just going to chalk that up to "Hey, Wizards of the Coast was experimenting when they made this class, just like they were when they made the Hexblade. It's cool.". Still, it's a pretty nice adaptation, if you ask me.
Even if it were 25 CON 1HP/10sec. Not useful for battle.
A better THAC0 progression, more weapon choices, strength bonuses instead con bonus, a better breath weapon...
I wish they listen to us.
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/dragonDisciple.html
I'd rather have some cool and useful dragon-like abilities. Or maybe warrior CON bonuses? DD is not that weak or broken, even compared to a regular sorcerer, so I think it only needs a little buff. The warrion hp bonus would be sooo great, since you don't really benefit from CON above 16, with the bonus points from BG1 and BG2, you could start the game at 12 and stilll get the +2 hp/lvl bonus, although very late game. If you have higher CON to begin with, it feels like wasted points... Even if you give the tomes to others it takes so long for that second point to kick in... (I started my DD with 15 CON).
So, in my vote goes for more spec abilities or warrior CON bonuses. Maybe other weapon profs. THAC0 raise by itself seems a bit irrelevant and useless, piled up with the others seem just too much of a buff for me.
What's the difference between a Sorcerer with 50 hp and a DD with 150 hp?
In my opinion there is none: both of them belong to a class that, with the right spells, can avoid being damaged.