Make infravision do something

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Pecca

The problem with infravision is that of how the game treats vision itself. You see arbitrary range all around your character (even behind his back) and no more, no less. It makes little sense, but it's how the engine works. Also making infravision this way would heavily impact the use of humans with no counterbalance. It would at the very least need to introduce new items such as torches and lanterns, and create new animations for them as no human would go blind into the woods without them.

In the end, the idea would be like trying to implement food mechanics. It would be closer to reality, but the game just works fine even without it. I can see it as a mod, but definitely not an official feature.

Awong124

A possible way to make infravision actually relevant is to have a penalty to THAC0 in the dark unless you have infravision. I'm not saying I actually want that implemented, just an idea. I'd rather have the game left the way it is.

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Pecca

Pecca said:

Also making infravision this way would heavily impact the use of humans with no counterbalance.

What I had in mind is that I think that the game doesn't take into consideration any advantages of infravision, therefore should there be any (any at all), it would probably mess with the game balance.

Kozaro

Pecca said:

What I had in mind is that I think that the game doesn't take into consideration any advantages of infravision, therefore should there be any (any at all), it would probably mess with the game balance.

Nonsense.

Putting many features to a game where some are ineffective compared to others could mean that the game's imbalanced at one of its aspects. Putting a feature that is well scripted, appears at the start of character generation, options menu, appears as a spell, and finally, appears as magic item's unique function and does literally nothing - did I forget about the potions? - well that is what I would call imbalanced.

I would opt for @subtledoctor 's or @Awong124 's idea - making it do something. Or to remove Infravision from the game at all. Leaving it as it is, one of the most apparent mistakes of Baldur's Gate mechanics, in Enhanced edition - unacceptable.

Anduin

Infra vision does SOMETHING.

It highlights the monsters in that shimmering red in the dark.

You can thus just click on them that little bit more easily so you can cast that spell or send a fighter to kill them.

IT DOESN'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING MORE!

Apart from waste a slot in your wizards spell book, IMHO.

If anything. I would like a really dark map, where infravision would be extremely crucial as without it you would not be able to see anything apart from where your mouse pointer turns into a cross hair or a sword.

THAT would make things interesting.

Awong124

Anduin said:

Infra vision does SOMETHING.

It highlights the monsters in that shimmering red in the dark.

You can thus just click on them that little bit more easily so you can cast that spell or send a fighter to kill them.

The bright red circles underneath the monsters kind of do a better job of that.

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Pecca

Kozaro said:

Pecca said:

What I had in mind is that I think that the game doesn't take into consideration any advantages of infravision, therefore should there be any (any at all), it would probably mess with the game balance.

Nonsense.

Putting many features to a game where some are ineffective compared to others could mean that the game's imbalanced at one of its aspects. Putting a feature that is well scripted, appears at the start of character generation, options menu, appears as a spell, and finally, appears as magic item's unique function and does literally nothing - did I forget about the potions? - well that is what I would call imbalanced.

I would opt for @subtledoctor 's or @Awong124 's idea - making it do something. Or to remove Infravision from the game at all. Leaving it as it is, one of the most apparent mistakes of Baldur's Gate mechanics, in Enhanced edition - unacceptable.

I agree with @Anduin. Infravision does something, even if the effect is very minor. If you gave the infravision more advantages, like THACO penalty for normal sight at night, than with all the infravision items available early and so many human foes in the game, it would make the game easier (think of a bandit camp for example) and I really don't think that is what the game needs.

Mordeus

I'm all for tying the Infravision spell in with the Fog of War. Sure it isn't perfect but it's really the simplest way of implementing an "increased vision" effect. Having it work in conjunction with the "dungeon" and "night" maps makes it even more of a clever solution.

Not to mention it would make the Underdark even more intimidating in BG2 or even the Sewers/Undercity of BG1.

As for having to create torch items for human characters... They could just equip the Helm of Infravision or the Ring of Infravision, if they want to catch up to their demi-human counterparts. Besides humans have enough benefits as is, might as well throw a bone to the demi-human races.

Anduin

@Awong124 You are spot on mentioning the circles.

The route of increasing THAC0 and making people with infra-vision see further would make things too easy.

I prefer the route of disable tab key in dark environments for characters without infravision.

Disable those circles for people without infravision as well!

A penalty to trap finding, lock picking, set traps and pick pockets in dark environments could also be implemented?

It would make things harder for humans. I prefer 'make it harder' route over 'lets give a bonus to / make it easier for' route.

I am not against the @subtledoctor concept of making infravision more worthwhile for those that have it.

Changing the fog of war is a problem when you think of the moster perspective. How far does a hobgoblin see? Are you opening up the option of CHARNAME being attacked without see who the attacker is? Or worse allow you to attack a monster without them seeing you?

That is what stealth is for.

I see the fog of war as more about the surroundings that you can see and manipuate (within bow shot) not actually what the character can see.

Kozaro

-1 DEX penalty in obscured areas would deal with it at all. Characters who doesn't rely on this attribute would not suffer any consequences. But archers and thieves will, just as they should.

Bright side of this solution is that certain monsters would be easier to hit (and backstabbed) at night due to reduced Armor Class. Increased difficulty of all precision based thieves' skills is quite obvious. As well as aiming.

The only skill that should be unaffected is Hide in Shadows. Move Silently could be still decreased due to the fact that not-seeing obstacles dramatically increases the chance of tripping over and causing just a bit more noise than usual.

Adding a special icon while being in the *dark place* could inform a player that either it's a good thing to immediately cast the mighty Infravision spell or to start... Lurking...

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Anduin

@Subtledoctor The tab key is used to highlight containers mostly. My idea would have that turned off in dark areas. You could still scrabble about (move your cursor) all over the screen though.

And make those players Squint! Not enough squintin going on in my book...

Back in 1998 I used to squint at the computer all the time!

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Tyranus

Bhaaldog said:

Anduin said:

Back in 1998 I used to squint at the computer all the time!

Those were the good old days...

REAL gamers have crows feet by age 15.

Senash

We already had topics on this. You can read a lot of opinions on the matter here:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/823/have-infravision-actually-do-something/p1
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5291/do-you-wish-infravision-mattered-more

I thought I actually posted in these topics, but apparently I was just observing, so here's my opinion:

Yes. It should definetly do something. If the engine allows it... THAC0 penalties/bonus would be great, and most realistic, but when does darkness start? Do you get the penalties in a dungeon? What about when it's raining? And what about spells?

Nifft

The THAC0 penalty stuff should be possible.

IWD2 had the inverse penalty situation: Drow and Dvargar had a penalty during daylight hours when outside.

Using that kind of code, it ought to be possible to impose penalties on Humans and Halflings -- the only ones without Infravision, right? -- when they're outdoors at night.

artificial_sunlight

The only point off infravision is the magical Helm of Infravision (gold, can't break (can armor break in EE?)). It looks better than the horned helmet.

franco

Whenever my party finds a helm or a scroll or infravision, I immediately know that I'm just going to sell it, since there are no penalties in the game for lack of infravision. Yet, invariably the thought comes to me, and many of you, that this is not very realistic.

There have been really good ideas in this thread of how to make infravision actually do something. I'm just going to expand a little on some of those I agree with.

1. Decrease Thaco and armor class protection by 1 and Find Traps for thieves by 10%, for all those that lack infravision.
2. Include a symbol on the screen indicating Darkness. optional: darken screen.
3. Do not apply the penalties to any character with infravision either naturally or through magic.

Optionals
4. Decrease Thaco and armor class protection by 2 and Find Traps for thieves by 20% if there is no member in the party that has infravision, so they can't receive some auditory guidance.
5. Require a torch or lantern be equipped by at least one character in the party (just the act of buying these and equipping them adds a more realistic feeling to the game) in order to remove the penalties from the party.
Also, the party member bearing the torch or lantern cannot equip a two handed weapon, a second weapon or shield.

Up to this point most of us have dismissed infravision in the game as unimportant and just a reminder of pnp D&D. With rules similar to these then the magic items and scrolls granting infravision will become more valuable, and I would certainly not go selling them as I do now.

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Pecca

subtledoctor said:

It actually shouldn't be very hard to create (or mod) a torch in the game. Just have it occupy the shield slot, like some harps and instruments do for bards. Once you decide what the effect for infravision is (fog of war extension, thac0 bonus, whatever) then the torch item would have the equipped effect of granting infravision to the bearer. (At the expense of weapon style bonuses.) Easy-peasy.

It would require a new paperdoll and that is a lot of work. Other than that, it's easy. But as I think of it, torch without proper light effect wouldn't look very well, and I'm not sure how hard, if even possible, would it be, to create such an effect.

Edvin

At night just give +2 THACO bonus to races with infravision.
Guys try think up easy solutions...

Awong124

Giving non-infravision races a THAC0 penalty in the dark makes more sense than giving infravision races a bonus. A creature without infravision sees worse in the dark. A creature with infravision doesn't see better in the dark.

Actually it would make sense if non-infravision races receive a THAC0 and AC penalty in the dark. But infravision races shouldn't receive a bonus.

Edvin

Oh right, instead +THACO to groupmembers you suggest -THACO to WHOLE WORLD ?
That is very easy solution...

franco

O.K. simplify :

Thaco and AC protection penalty of -2, and Find Traps/Open Locks penalty of -10% for party members who do not have infravision. (I think the size of the penalty is realistic if the guy can't see).

Penalty removed for characters having spell or magic item for infravision or light.

Penalty can be removed for whole party if at least one is carrying a torch/lantern equipped in shield or weapon slot (if this can be implemented).

Awong124

Edvin said:

Oh right, instead +THACO to groupmembers you suggest -THACO to WHOLE WORLD ?
That is very easy solution...

You haven't really thought this through have you? Either way you do it it still affects the whole world. Not only your group members are subject to infravision. Enemies and creatures can have infravision too.

And you got + and - THAC0 backwards. Bonus is -, and penalty is +.

Dee

I always just assumed that your characters were carrying around torches, or your wizards were casting Light spells.

Awong124

Aosaw said:

I always just assumed that your characters were carrying around torches, or your wizards were casting Light spells.

There's an option called "Group Infravision" which I've never figured out its purpose.

franco

Aosaw said:

I always just assumed that your characters were carrying around torches, or your wizards were casting Light spells.

But that would make redundant items like the helm of infravision and scrolls giving infravision etc. I think that original designers intended something a little more in this area, but ran out of time and decided the game was already great as is.