The reason I was not impressed with the C-F is that I didn't feel it did much. It was an okay fighter, but the cleric part just didn't seem to add much. It certainly made the fighter better through DuHM, RM and Boon, but I think that if I had simply gone for another K->M, even with 1 APR less, I'd have gotten more benefit out of it simply due to having more spells to throw around. The difference wouldn't be huge I suppose, I just expected more out of the cleric
I suppose it really says something that a Fighter with 25 Str and 5 APR has difficulty measuring up to a K->M.
I'm right with you on the Cleric spellcasting being rather lackluster; when I did a playthrough with a F/C I kept expecting to find some spell that would make things really click, be it Blade Barrier, Bolt of Glory, or one of the Quest spells, but nothing really lived up to my expectations.
@Kaigen: Maybe I'm just biased, or simply don't recognize the power of the C->F because it is so, well, subtle. If you just stand there hitting things with your 25 STR, there's not much of an effect unless you pay close attention to the combat log. With mages, you see a flash and a bang >_> But I think the main issue is defenses, and buffs; it's sad that a cleric is in fact quite inferior to a mage in that respect, simply because of the power of Stoneskin and Improved Haste, the arguably best buffs in those two categories by far. I regularly found my C->F pummeled to dangerous levels by random damage, and Armor of Faith didn't help an awful lot against the numbers in question; turning a 160 damage backstab into a 120 one isn't the biggest help.
@Iamaros: I only play BG2, really. I've played through BG1 a few times, but I don't like it as much as I do BG2. It's quite difficult to find a good balance between BG1 and BG2 and make characters that are optimal for both. It can be done, but it would probably require compromise somewhere. Not that I don't think you couldn't brute-force BG1 with the BG2 setup (you very likely could), it just wouldn't be optimal. I don't have extensive experience with BG1, but I do remember it being a fair bit easier at the high end than BG2.
You touch upon an interesting topic with the NPCs, though. While I do usually run completely custom setups in terms of class/kit combination, I usually do so by modifying the existing NPCs rather than creating entirely new ones, or I make custom ones to start with, then replace them one by one as I recruit NPCs to take their place. The reason I do this is primarily fun, as the banters and romance are a welcome diversion; some NPCs, particularly from mods (like Solaufein), also add challenges I wouldn't want to miss.
However, the NPCs do have more to offer other than their personalities. They actually have several benefits that are of interest for powergaming, some more than others. Here's a list of them, in no particular order, with the benefits they bring and how good they are:
Edwin: unique necklace with +spell levels. He's probably the most powerful NPCs of all, being a Thayvian "super specialist" mage. He has significantly more spell levels all the way up to 9th, and that is quite simply a-ma-zing.
Minsc: Berserker Rage. Definitely a useful ability to have, though you have to be careful: if you pair him with Aerie and he accepts her as his new witch, he'll go berserk uncontrollably if she is killed.
Nalia: unique ring of protection+2 with 50% fire resistance. That ring is more useful than you'd think, and quite a powerful piece of gear I wish I could just pry off her cold, dead finger... :P Fire resistance is certainly the best type of elemental resistance to have.
Jaheira: Ring of Wizardry. Wait, what? Yes, indeed, if you stay with our old Harper friend long enough (longer if in a romance), you eventually end up in a fight with her old friends, and one of them drops an extra Ring of Wizardry you wouldn't otherwise get in the normal course of the game. She also gets her Harper Pin at the very end of the romance, but it's not a very good item. Jaheira also has the romance with the most XP to gain, and also the most bugs/annoying hoops to go through to complete it,
Aerie: nothing. Sad but true, our little emo elf has no real benefit whatsoever. She's an elven cleric/mage which is not a combination that race is usually allowed, but since C/M aren't exactly powergaming material (and racial bonuses aren't very relevant in BG2 anyway) that's not exactly relevant.
Haer'dalis: prolific resistances and unique weapons. Being a Tiefling has its perks, it seems. Haer'dalis has a load of not only elemental resistances (50 cold, 25 fire/electricity), but also 15% resistance to *all* forms of physical damage! That is quite significant, making him a very powerful choice. If that wasn't enough, though, he also has a pair of unique swords that are alright (though short swords aren't great in general). They can both be upgraded with the ItemUpgrade mod and gain interesting effects (such as cast Greater Malison on hit), but they are not competitive with other high-end weapon choices.
Anomen: unique shield with missile protection. Mr. Unpopular continues the trend with a fairly useless unique item, a shield with 3 daily uses of Protection from Missiles. Mildly useful at times, it becomes irrelevant quite quickly. You can upgrade it with the ItemUpgrade mod and make it into one of the more powerful shields in the game, but it's still, well, a SHIELD.
Valygar: unique weapon and armor. The weapon is okay, but becomes obsolete fairly quickly. The armor is pretty good, granting immunity to charm and decent resistances. It can be further upgraded with the ItemUpgrade mod, becoming quite useful even at endgame. For Valygar himself, or for a UAI thief with murderous intent...
Korgan: some XP/gold. I admit I haven't played with the guy in a long time (I just don't like him) but I cannot recall him having anything worth mentioning. He does come with a quest which you can complete early on, but the XP and gold you gain from it is fairly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Keldorn: unique weapon and armor. As with Valygar, both are quite nice at early game, and both can be upgraded with the ItemUpgrade mod. The weapon in particular is of interest, as it essentially becomes a minor version of Carsomyr fairly early in the game (requires Demon Heart and 20 rep). The armor is decent as well in its upgraded form, rivaling most alternatives. A solid choice if you play with the mod, otherwise not overly useful.
Mazzy: unique sword and bow, can remove fear/invoke courage. Mazzy is half a paladin with her special abilities, which while marginally relevant can be useful at times. Her weapons are unimpressive, but her sword can be upgraded with the ItemUpgrade mod and become fairly decent (+5 enchantment, +1 STR bonus), though not overly powerful due to being a short sword.
Cernd: unique staff and cloak. His cloak is just a Cloak of Protection+1 with flavor, his staff pretty much completely useless. Neither can be upgraded, and so Cernd has basically nothing special going for him except his colorful and deep personality (sarcasm-alert!).
Imoen: nothing. Our little sister is as vanilla as they come, but I do believe some mod or another gives her a few minor Bhaalspawn powers in ToB, more for flavor than use. In fact, it can be argued that taking Imoen is actively *bad* for you, as she'll become the Slayer during the final battle and turn on you.
Viconia: magic resistance. Like all drow, Viconia has a good chunk of magic resistance (60-something I believe). MR is very useful in many respects, and depending on class choice and equipment can be stacked higher, too, to amazing effect. A solid pick.
Jan: special xbow, armor, goggles, gloves. Jan has the most unique equipment in the game, in more sense than one. His weapon is useless, but his gloves and goggles confer decent thieving skill bonuses that are handy especially at early game. If you don't make him a thief, they are obviously irrelevant, though the goggles do have an on-use effect that dispels invisibility. His armor on the other hand can be very useful, even powerful with the right setup. I once made him a Barbarian->Cleric, using his armor with Defender of Easthaven and Armor of Faith, stacking damage resistances left and right. Given that you can combine the armor with Bracers of Defense AC3, you can use it to some effect in several setups; especially later on in the game, where AC becomes less and less useful, while damage reduction becomes better and better.
Yoshimo: xp, some gold. Taking Yoshimo all the way nets you his heart, which you can turn in for some XP and gold. Yep, that's as good as it gets with him.
Sarevok: Deathbringer Assault. Sarevok's special ability gives a 3% chance of 200 piercing damage and 10% chance of Stun (Save vs. Spells at -4). Yep, 200. Random though it is, this is arguably the most powerful special ability in the entire game. With 10 APR, it actually happens fairly regularly, and it's nothing short of devastating when it occurs. There's few enemies in the game that can survive a hit, though I'm not 100% sure on whether it works against bosses, and what kind of damage it is/which protections affect it. Keep in mind though that he may betray you during the final battle, depending on what choices you make in ToB.
MODDED NPCS:
Solaufein: unique challenges, unique sword, magic resistance. I mention Solaufein because he comes with one of the harder fights in the game, which can be quite a nut to crack. It's a ToB encounter that happens once you're past a certain XP value, and is quite a rewarding experience, difficulty-wise. He also has a moderately tough battle in SoA, which if defeated rewards you with a special sword - which is the most broken, overpowered, cheesy bit of gear you'll ever find. I refuse to use it on principle, but if you do it's a +5 long sword with +1 APR, -2 AC, a chance for extra damage, and *permanent* DuHM, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Luck, Free Action, and Armor of Faith. Yeah, not overpowered at all. Solaufein, as a drow, also comes with innate magic resistance and a bookshelf full of pretentious philosophical babble.
NOTE: I assume all NPCs to be modified as you see fit in terms of class/kit. Personally, I also modify the race to properly fit dual/multi classing choices (while retaining the appearance, for flavor), but that's a personal choice. Racial bonuses are not the most relevant in BG2 anyway, aside from perhaps Half-Orcs, which none of the NPCs are anyway (yet...) so it's not too big a deal. That means the original NPC stats/classes don't matter at all to me, but that too is a choice I've settled on. You could argue that custom stats paired with the NPCs unique perks and items are too powerful, and I could see why; I personally think it adds some much-needed variety, and I do limit myself in terms of stats to reasonable roll-totals (usually 85 for NPCs, 90 for CHARNAME; 90/95 if I'm in a hurry). Your mileage, as always, may vary.
A note on Jaheira: If you are not romancing her, you can get to the fight where the Ring of Wizardry drops pretty quickly, as she'll be summoned away to the Harper Hold directly after the Xzar/Montaron sidequest. Sometimes I'll just drag her along to that point and then ditch her so I can hear other NPCs banter, but I like a lot of her banters so I often end up keeping her anyway.
Pretty sure the Harper Hold encounter with her is part of the romance; an early part to be sure, but it means it may not be available if you are not a romantic match for her. I could be wrong, though, I haven't really checked the particulars as I always end up romancing her when she's in the party.
Pretty sure the Harper Hold encounter with her is part of the romance; an early part to be sure, but it means it may not be available if you are not a romantic match for her. I could be wrong, though, I haven't really checked the particulars as I always end up romancing her when she's in the party.
While the later Harper encounters are part of the romance, the very first one in Harper Hold (where the Ring of Wizardry drops) is not. In fact, it will come earlier if you are not in the romance, because if you are in the romance the game waits until you've advanced the lovetalks far enough before triggering the event.
Well, that's good to know, then! Thanks! I'll edit the post above so it's clear for those using it as a reference. I'm sure I missed another thing or two somewhere...
Just a note. In another thread Anton points out that Deathbringer Assault gives 3% chance of 200 piercing damage and 10% chance of Stun (Save vs. Spells at -4).
The NPCs I like to use for maximum effectiveness are Edwin for his amulet which gives +2 Spells/Level for Levels 1-9, Viconia for the +65% magic resistance, and Sarevok for the Deathbringer Assault. Both Edwin and Viconia make excellent Sorcerers, Edwin for the extra spells and Viconia for the 19 DEX and 18 WIS (Wish Spell). As Lord_Tansheron points out, Solaufein is wickedly powerful, challenging, and fun to play. Returning from Spellhold to Bodhi's lair with him and while in a romance with Viconia makes for a white-knuckle fight, especially if your party has less than six members to begin with.
@Curmudgeon: Thanks for the details, I'll edit them in!
I agree very much with your choice of NPCs, they are certainly among the best. The Undead Solaufein fight is great fun, of course less so if you have a thief to trivialize it... >_>
My own favorite party is Edwin, Viconia, Haer'dalis, and Solaufein, swapping in Sarevok in ToB for Viconia or Haer'dalis (depending on how/where I want to stack resistances). Lately I've varied things up a bit, though, taking some under-used NPCs and trying out the Nalia romance mod. Power-wise, the evil bunch definitely take the cake, though.
To take this in a different direction: what do people think the best ways to power level dual class characters are? What's the best kill and quest experience that can be saved up to quickly jump a few levels?
As for the best npc characters to power level in BG 1, you'd have to go with Edwin, Coran, Kivan, and dualed Imoen, probably. Minsc is also great as a glass cannon.
@Iamaros: It's difficult to answer the leveling question, because of how the answer changes depending on the exact mod setup and party composition. Depending on the variables, some things can be easier or harder for people.
One of the "big ones" in terms of quest XP early on is the main quest. Trademeet is also fairly easy to complete, and has two per-character XP rewards (druids and Dao). Windspear Hills is easy if you skip Firkraag for later.
Dualing to mage, you also have scroll-scribing of course. With enough money on hand you can buy out most spells available, and with two mages it's double the fun. Usually I dual to mage, then scribe immediately and end up with like lvl 5 or even higher from the get-go. You could delete spells to re-scribe if you have the money, but I think that's a borderline exploitative tactic; use at your own discretion, I choose not to.
The dual-class downtime is not a big deal if you dual at lvl9. The amount of xp required to regain the class is very low, and can usually be earned in a very short amount of time (~1h). Lvl13 duals are a different matter. You'll have to do most side quests just to get to 13, and then some more to hope and regain. When I had a large portion of 13 duals in my party in earlier setups, I *barely* managed to regain the levels by the time I had finished basically every side quest before departure to Spellhold.
Once you get to Spellhold and beyond, the XP rewards increase noticeably. If you do have some stragglers, they'll catch up quickly, usually in time for the Underdark. You can also rush to Spellhold at lower levels to take advantage of this, but keep in mind that depending on your mods, there may be some annoying battles to fight there (the Lich before Dace regularly gives me trouble).
The biggest XP-bomb for sure is Watcher's Keep, though. It has a gazillion side quests with per-character XP, as well as a high number of enemies with good XP values. However, it can be quite the challenge to get through at lower levels. Also note that (afaik) the statues on Level One of WK do scale with party levels in the way that not all of them may activate if you go there too early; potentially, this can cost you loot.
Back on the BG1/whole saga powergaming thing, given BG2 is pretty much discussed to death:
Archers are gods and would have to make a slot for sure. They dominate BG1 and remain great for much of early-mid BG2. Elf, obviously. Inquisitors are still gods. Fighter/Thieves are great from the get go, and would have a spot. Backstabbing is good, thieving skills are handy, and late game with two class HLAs they remain very damaging. Obviously you get a demi-human, with Dwarves probably the best option due to saving throws and the +dex tome in BG1.
The last two spots (no need for a full party) would be for mage duals of one kind or another. Kensais are a little meh in BG1 for a number of reasons, so you'd maybe nod to berserkers instead. The differences late game won't be make or break IMO, and they will power through early on. A sorcerer would also be ok, though it's less optimal than a fighter kit->mage.
I can't speak to BG1 as my experience with it is too limited. Tentatively I'd say ranged > all, but I think you'd run into problems optimizing a party for both BG1 and BG2 for various reasons. One, you'd lack an early caster. Having pure casters is quite detrimental in BG2, but you can hardly afford to play through all of BG1 without one. Even low level duals (i.e. 7) leave you with large portions of the game completely without casters. Also, since you want to go for ranged weapons so much, you'll end up with poorly spent proficiency points on all your fighters. You'd have to make huge compromises in terms of where to spend points, and risk ending up short in BG2.
All in all, I think it's fine to discuss BG1 as a separate thing; but I think that BG1 and BG2 are too different to find a consistent optimization for all throughout the saga. Besides, very few people actually play like that, as the games are so different. And this *is* a BG2/ToB specific thread after all... >_>
I dunno, I like to play the series through, as a couple of others do too.
You don't really need casters in BG1 for the most part or at all. In fact I'd say having a cleric is more useful in BG1 than a mage.
You don't really get enough spells that make a big difference, you're often better off jus using potions and, where you can, wands and scrolls. Also you have an inquisitor.
Archers are good, but a fighter thief in heavy armor (w/ find traps and detect illusions) is very decent in melee (plus you're got the returning weapons), backstabbing and shutting down casters.
Berserkers are also great early, and transition to BG2 well. The resistances are handy and they don't have the kensai weaknesses.
In comparison to your BG2 setup you're looking at:
@Iamaros: that party sounds reasonable. But as I said, I am not qualified to make an assessment on BG1 powergaming because my experience is so limited. I don't know how important mages or clerics are there.
@Lord_Tansheron Hello, sorry for the intromissioin...i know i am totally off topic, but could you please tell me the name of the mod you use to change the class/kit of the npcs? Also, in a totally custom game with 5 characters could you please tell me wich skill for the weapon do you assign to your party? plan for my party is : Kensai (13)->mage x2 Inquisitor Archer Kensai (or berserker) 13->thief
thanks in advance for your advices and sorry for my bad english.
Edit: i know you said that 4 is the perfect number for a party in bg2, but i never tried less than 6..that's why i am going with 5
@jean30: I use Shadowkeeper to edit my characters, it's the easiest way to get what you want.
As for weapon skills, it's fairly easy: you want as many people dual-wielding with +APR offhands as possible. There's only 3 of those, though, and one requires UAI. So that's your K->Thief with Scarlet Ninja-to already, and the K->Mages with Kundane and Belm, respectively. The Inquisitor is easy because you can only spend 2 points anyway, so you can get a lot of various types and switch around. 2h Swords is a given thanks to Carsomyr, I also like some ranged weapons for the early game. Archer is very easy, too: Crossbow -> Short Bow. Army Scythe and Firetooth are available very early, and then you can go for Tuigan Bow and Short Bow of Gesen later on.
That only leaves the mainhands for your three Kensais. For that, just go with the most damaging weapons in the game, i.e. Flail of Ages, Crom Faeyr, and Club of Detonation. Give Crom Faeyr to whoever has the lowest STR out of the three, so you get the most benefit, the others you can split as you like. An alternative to Club of Detonation is going for Long Swords to use Angurvadal; this has the advantage of being able to use some of the early game Long Swords like Daystar more effectively.
The exact choices depend a lot on your game progression, and the mods you use. If you're using ItemUpgrade, for example, you may want to stick with Clubs from the start, since Pitchwife+5 is very easy to get. Similarly, if you are using modified NPCs instead of all-custom chars, you may want to use one of their unique weapons in upgraded form (such as Mazzy's Sword of Arvoreen+5).
Generally, you should try to time things so you have Grandmastery in your weapon of choice as soon as you have access to it. Find out what weapons are available to you at what point, and plan accordingly. War Hammers, for example, have an amazing endgame choice (Crom Faeyr) but very few early game picks; you may want to start off using something else, then switch so you achieve GM just as you gain access to CF. This can be tricky to do, and isn't even always worth it; exact values and plans are difficult to standardize, because of the different way people play and progress through the story. One advice I can give you is that you can easily disregard offhand proficiencies, because they are only 20% of your swings and do not benefit from APR gains through proficiency points. Also, try to spend points in your dual class so that you aren't wasting any (i.e. don't put points in the same weapon in both classes). I recommend dualing at 9 instead of 13, as it'll make things a lot easier and more convenient.
i made my "ideal" team and played them all separately and solo before making the team. Not trough all the saga for all characters but a large part of it.
- Berserker13/Mage: berserk state is the best ability ingame in my opinion, combined with PFMW and you are immune to everything, granted you have the normal weapons protection from hell trials. He is the ideal character to go up in frontline first once berserk mode is triggered. weapons: BlackRazor/Argrudaval (whatever is the name i never remember)
- The F/M/C: the best tank i've played even when dispelled and/or breached or whatever he can still tank, forever... Pretty good damage as well in melee with selected weapons. They are very very strong end game and can adapt a lot. weapons: Crom Faeyr/Defender
- The F/M/T: pretty cool toon to play with, many abilities and tricks, 80% magic resistance without gimping yourself, can breach, can backstab, can detect illusion, etc... just lovely. UAI is fun, i love the harp of pandemonium, montolio's cloak etc... And the insane traps and the fighter HLA. weapons: Hindo's Doom(fast weapon for backstab)/The Purifier +5 (for the 30% magic resist mostly and the pretty steady dmg as well)
- The Inquisitor: awesome dude to kill mages in a matter of seconds weapons: Piosinc Blade/firetooth crossbow loaded with stunning bolts (with attack on sight its great)/Staff of the Ram/Carsomyr. My favorite Combo is to use the Staff of the ram until you get the proc, then switch to crossbow and GWW while staying where you are, If the guy manage to go through this without getting stunned and / or killed, then he deserves some more ! switch to your sword, smite ! crossbow again and a big lol ! hehe.
- The Wizard Slayer15/Thief: Yes ! oh yes ! he is not the greatest character around but for some reason i do like him, and he's not bad at all, far from it ! i built him as a real wizard slayer so to speak, indeed he has exactly 100% magic resistance and his favorite sword is the answerer along with some scimitars for fast backstab (the scimitar +5 spectral brand is awesome for that if u click the ability before backstabbing, you can remain hidden while doing this, it adds quite a lot of damage !) He's also my sword master ! he has 5 pips in three different proficiencies and dual weapons maxed as well.
- The M/C not much to say, just here to ease everything up, this character was not doing much to be honest, watching the slaughtering mostly, spamming dispells, breach and the like to make things even easier. weapons: club of detonation/storm star or quarterstaff, or nothing
I make the inquisitor and the wizard slayer cooperating and its quite fun to utterly destroy any mage that come across them. If the mage is lucky enough to cast true sight before i backstab him to death and if he also has some protection like stoneskin, he will get dispelled by the inquisitor and killed right away by both of them, when the wizard slayer hit one dude its -2AC, -15% magic resist and 10% casting failure (i suspect its much more than that) and its cumulative. For melee the B/M the F/M/T and the F/M/C tank and kill, they breach whatever is needed as well if the M/C is too lazy to do it.
i made my "ideal" team and played them all separately and solo before making the team. Not trough all the saga for all characters but a large part of it.
- Berserker13/Mage: berserk state is the best ability ingame in my opinion, combined with PFMW and you are immune to everything, granted you have the normal weapons protection from hell trials. He is the ideal character to go up in frontline first once berserk mode is triggered. weapons: BlackRazor/Argrudaval (whatever is the name i never remember)
- The F/M/C: the best tank i've played even when dispelled and/or breached or whatever he can still tank, forever... Pretty good damage as well in melee with selected weapons. They are very very strong end game and can adapt a lot. weapons: Crom Faeyr/Defender
- The F/M/T: pretty cool toon to play with, many abilities and tricks, 80% magic resistance without gimping yourself, can breach, can backstab, can detect illusion, etc... just lovely. UAI is fun, i love the harp of pandemonium, montolio's cloak etc... And the insane traps and the fighter HLA. weapons: Hindo's Doom(fast weapon for backstab)/The Purifier +5 (for the 30% magic resist mostly and the pretty steady dmg as well)
- The Inquisitor: awesome dude to kill mages in a matter of seconds weapons: Piosinc Blade/firetooth crossbow loaded with stunning bolts (with attack on sight its great)/Staff of the Ram/Carsomyr. My favorite Combo is to use the Staff of the ram until you get the proc, then switch to crossbow and GWW while staying where you are, If the guy manage to go through this without getting stunned and / or killed, then he deserves some more ! switch to your sword, smite ! crossbow again and a big lol ! hehe.
- The Wizard Slayer15/Thief: Yes ! oh yes ! he is not the greatest character around but for some reason i do like him, and he's not bad at all, far from it ! i built him as a real wizard slayer so to speak, indeed he has exactly 100% magic resistance and his favorite sword is the answerer along with some scimitars for fast backstab (the scimitar +5 spectral brand is awesome for that if u click the ability before backstabbing, you can remain hidden while doing this, it adds quite a lot of damage !) He's also my sword master ! he has 5 pips in three different proficiencies and dual weapons maxed as well.
- The M/C not much to say, just here to ease everything up, this character was not doing much to be honest, watching the slaughtering mostly, spamming dispells, breach and the like to make things even easier. weapons: club of detonation/storm star or quarterstaff, or nothing
I make the inquisitor and the wizard slayer cooperating and its quite fun to utterly destroy any mage that come across them. If the mage is lucky enough to cast true sight before i backstab him to death and if he also has some protection like stoneskin, he will get dispelled by the inquisitor and killed right away by both of them, when the wizard slayer hit one dude its -2AC, -15% magic resist and 10% casting failure (i suspect its much more than that) and its cumulative. For melee the B/M the F/M/T and the F/M/C tank and kill, they breach whatever is needed as well if the M/C is too lazy to do it.
In a party of 6 like that neither the F/M/T or F/M/C will do very well as they won't reach high levels. I would remove the F/M/C and use a C/R instead and remove the F/M/T as well and get a Skald.
Both F/M/T and F/M/C are still omgwtfbbq strong in a full party. Plus if you remove the F/M/T he doesn't have a Thief until his Wizard Slayer duals into one.
I could argue that DUHM alone makes the F/M/C a better Fighter than a single class one or than a F/M.
Both F/M/T and F/M/C are still omgwtfbbq strong in a full party. Plus if you remove the F/M/T he doesn't have a Thief until his Wizard Slayer duals into one.
I could argue that DUHM alone makes the F/M/C a better Fighter than a single class one or than a F/M.
With two dual classes, a F/M/T, F/M/C and a M/C his team will be incredible weak for most of the game. And no your F/M/T and F/M/C won't be OMGWTFBBQ strong at all in a 6 man party. A single class mage would have done much more for that party because not only do they have to share experience between 3 classes, they also won't reach that high level on their caster classes.
And he is sitting with 4 mages. While mages are very strong, he won't have nearly enough spells to spread out to make them all useful. A R/C would be much stronger than the F/M/C and he won't need a F/M/T at all. Rather replace it with a Skald or perhaps a thief -> mage dual class if he wants that mage.
it s not a concern at all for me that they don't reach highest levels, they are already strong enough (i played them already, both solo and in team) Furthermore i think the FMC is the strongest character when it comes to survive melee so why not using one ? they are amazing, try one you will see by yourself.
And the F/M/T is my favorite characater because of the play style !
i played them solo first so they were at their highest level when i made the team, but true for a regular team i wont choose any of them.
it s not a concern at all for me that they don't reach highest levels, they are already strong enough (i played them already, both solo and in team) Furthermore i think the FMC is the strongest character when it comes to survive melee so why not using one ? they are amazing, try one you will see by yourself.
And the F/M/T is my favorite characater because of the play style !
I have played a F/M/C several times and they aren't that strong. A M/C is a much stronger tank and so is a pure class mage.
I can tell you right now that unless you're running with mods those two are not going to reach any type of power until the very end of ToB.
The only reason a F/M/C and F/M/T are strong is because of the M part. And he won't have that many spells nor that high level spells in a combination like that. In your team (with a thief already) a F/M would have been stronger than the F/M/T and a C/R would have been a better choice than the F/M/C.
The C/R will level up much faster than the F/M/C. The C/R will actually have a useful turn undead. The C/R will grant you druid spells in your party.
The F/M/C will have arcane spells, you already got 3 other mages in your party.
as i told you i played them solo first, i agree i wouldnt choose any of them if i had a full party. i still think the F/M/C is very strong, stronger than any fighter/mage dual or multi when it comes to take damage, the numbers are there, PFMW and 80% dmg resistance all the time up unless dispelled you go down to 60% but the spell is instant cast, and then you have the heals, sanctuary etc...
as i told you i played them solo first, i agree i wouldnt choose any of them if i had a full party. i still think the F/M/C is very strong, stronger than any fighter/mage dual or multi when it comes to take damage, the numbers are there, PFMW and 80% dmg resistance all the time up unless dispelled you go down to 60% but the spell is instant cast, and then you have the heals, sanctuary etc...
As a mage you're able to make yourself completely immune to all damage, you don't need a cleric or fighter to help you. A pure class mage will be a much better tank than any F/M/C. You won't need heals because you're not going to take any damage, same goes with Sanctuary.
If you do want the cleric spells then you can run a M/C and it would still be a stronger tank than the F/M/C.
Both the F/M/C and F/M/T are very strong in solo play or a small party (2-4). But if you're going to run with the 6 man party you had mentioned before, they won't be very strong at all.
And that party will only ever be strong in ToB. In my opinion it's silly to make a party that will be weak for most of the game so they can shine when you go through the last 10-15%.
i ran this team already, all max level, played tob and black pits 2 with them just for fun, that was fast ! hehe, but yea of course they would be horrible to level up as a full team, thats why i didnt do it !
Dragon Disciple with a berseker wearing the dragon armor and getting both 127% fire and 100% poison resist, spamming incendiary cloud, cloudkill and stinking cloud !
As a mage you're able to make yourself completely immune to all damage, you don't need a cleric or fighter to help you. A pure class mage will be a much better tank than any F/M/C. You won't need heals because you're not going to take any damage, same goes with Sanctuary.
Yeah but as a Mage you are not even close to the damage a F/M/C can deliver with crom and defender buffed plus spells plus HLA, not counting the 5 damage shields that can surround you and you can stack together to make use of your low AC because you wear a robe of vecna. Correct me if i am wrong, and i might be but its a massive amount of damage to me, they just destroy everything properly buffed because they are highly resistant to everything, they also can reach very good saving throws through buffs. Sanctuary is for the contingency, just to make even more sure you wont die.
they are a lot of valid, good and overpowered characters but this one is one of the best to me even if they look very wrong and i prefer to play other characters !!! Granted the berseker/mage is ten times easier to manage than the FMC and as much overpowered, plus its easy as hell to solo bg1 with a pure berserker, looks like the game has been made for them.
In a 6 man party, everyone will be low level, not only the triple classes. A single class mage won't contribute much simply because between 2 casts he is not very useful. I find the F/M/T absolutely awesome in a full party because he can cover all your thieving needs with no waste and no downtime from Candlekeep to Ascension while a Thief or a F/T will be weak in combat and will have too many skill points.
Plus, the ability to backstab is enhanced so much by the F/M part, you have a very good thac0 and bonus damage which gets multiplied and with the Mage part, you will be able to backstab far more often, I find the synergy to be too good to pass up. With some micro, the F/M/T can have the most kill of the team pretty easely.
The C/M is arguably a better tank than a F/M/C (even if he doesn't have as much HP, which can be handy in some situations like in the early BG1), that's probably true but it is no good to be a tank if you don't do anything useful during a fight. Between two casts, the C/M is useless. Even with heavy buffing, he won't ever do as much damage in melee than a F/M/C and with his cripple progression he can't fully rely on casting like a Sorcerer.
The C/R is an interesting character, only good in my mind because he can cast Iron Skin which is still worse than Stoneskin, but going from 1 class to 2 slows your progression a lot, but going from 2 to 3 not so much, plus the Ranger has a slower progression than the Fighter. A C/R generally has 1 more level in his Ranger class than the F/M/C in his Fighter class and zero (BG1 xp cap) to two (BG2 xp cap) more levels in his Cleric class than the F/M/C.
The F/M/C trades this for Sleep / Mirror Image / Stoneskin / Improved Haste / Spell Immunity / All the sequencers spells / ALL THE SPELLS REMOVALS etc. To my mind there is no contest, the Mage part is so good that the F/M/C is an improved C/R. Still, I think the C/R can be very useful for the insects spells, but he doesn't need to replace the F/M/C. And the Turning Undead is not an argument IMO, a C/R or a C/M in a 6 man party is going to be too low level anyway for it to be to worth it (it's going to work against weak foes which you can slain easely already).
Then, I think dual classes are poor powergaming character. They aren't worth the downtime, lose of HLA etc. IMO.
To me, all the usefulness of a character depends of being able to cast a useful spell every round. You can only make one special action per round and it better be a good one. Then you must be able to have a high DPS during the downtime between two special actions, which means you must be a Fighter (for the half APR from level 7/13 and specialization). And finally you must be resilient (Stoneskin).
So I think a good powergaming character is either a F/M, a F/M/T or a F/M/C. There are a few exceptions to this however.
Sorcerer : Can deserve a spot IMO. Will unlock all the high level spells first which will unlock some fights impossible without X or Y spell. Is straight up impossible to kill and omnipotent in late game if you are extremely good at the game and know every spells by heart. I think a max level Sorcerer played perfectly by some kind of awesome IA could defeat any powergaming party alone.
Inquisitor : Weak in melee but has the awesome Dispel Magic and True Sight, in a 6 man party anyone is going to be too low level for dispelling so the Inquisitor comes in handy. Can still be pretty easely countered by Spell Immunity.
Blackguard : In some fights he is going to be weak, but in most he is going to make you win in the first round by poisoning everyone. Because he can't cast Mirror Image / Stoneskin, he is going to be weak in melee, like the Inquisitor, so I think the best thing to do is to make him your archer. Poisoning every casters from range at round 1 which bypasses Mirror Image / Stoneskin and doing obscene amount of damage will win you most fights of the game. Even Liches can be poisoned, it's really good.
Cleric/Ranger : Same than the Blackguard, he is not the best character in fight because he lacks some proper buffing, but he can win you another large part of the game with the insect spells.
Blade/Skald : Only, and ONLY for clone singing the HLA song / Skald song. The character is aweful IMO, but +2(+4)AC/Hit/Damage for anyone including himself is VERY strong in a 6 man party where anyone can fight in melee. I would still only play one with the restored spell progression mod (which allows Bards to reach level 7 and 8 spells as per PnP).
To conclude, my powergaming party would be something like :
F/M/T F/M/C Sorcerer Blackguard Skald or F/I Cleric/Ranger or F/I
From BG1 to ToB. All your thieving skills are covered from the start to the end, 95% of the fights will be won thanks to either Poison Weapon, Insect Plague or your newly unlocked spell by your Sorcerer. No dual means no weakness in the early game or in the late game. Very versatile and very powerful in pure fights. Everyone except the Blackguard will be protected from physicals attacks.
As always, I would like to apologize for my poor english, thanks for reading !
Comments
Or, what is the best class and group composition if you only play a single character and use npcs for the rest.
I'm right with you on the Cleric spellcasting being rather lackluster; when I did a playthrough with a F/C I kept expecting to find some spell that would make things really click, be it Blade Barrier, Bolt of Glory, or one of the Quest spells, but nothing really lived up to my expectations.
@Iamaros: I only play BG2, really. I've played through BG1 a few times, but I don't like it as much as I do BG2. It's quite difficult to find a good balance between BG1 and BG2 and make characters that are optimal for both. It can be done, but it would probably require compromise somewhere. Not that I don't think you couldn't brute-force BG1 with the BG2 setup (you very likely could), it just wouldn't be optimal. I don't have extensive experience with BG1, but I do remember it being a fair bit easier at the high end than BG2.
You touch upon an interesting topic with the NPCs, though. While I do usually run completely custom setups in terms of class/kit combination, I usually do so by modifying the existing NPCs rather than creating entirely new ones, or I make custom ones to start with, then replace them one by one as I recruit NPCs to take their place. The reason I do this is primarily fun, as the banters and romance are a welcome diversion; some NPCs, particularly from mods (like Solaufein), also add challenges I wouldn't want to miss.
However, the NPCs do have more to offer other than their personalities. They actually have several benefits that are of interest for powergaming, some more than others. Here's a list of them, in no particular order, with the benefits they bring and how good they are:
Edwin: unique necklace with +spell levels. He's probably the most powerful NPCs of all, being a Thayvian "super specialist" mage. He has significantly more spell levels all the way up to 9th, and that is quite simply a-ma-zing.
Minsc: Berserker Rage. Definitely a useful ability to have, though you have to be careful: if you pair him with Aerie and he accepts her as his new witch, he'll go berserk uncontrollably if she is killed.
Nalia: unique ring of protection+2 with 50% fire resistance. That ring is more useful than you'd think, and quite a powerful piece of gear I wish I could just pry off her cold, dead finger... :P Fire resistance is certainly the best type of elemental resistance to have.
Jaheira: Ring of Wizardry. Wait, what? Yes, indeed, if you stay with our old Harper friend long enough (longer if in a romance), you eventually end up in a fight with her old friends, and one of them drops an extra Ring of Wizardry you wouldn't otherwise get in the normal course of the game. She also gets her Harper Pin at the very end of the romance, but it's not a very good item. Jaheira also has the romance with the most XP to gain, and also the most bugs/annoying hoops to go through to complete it,
Aerie: nothing. Sad but true, our little emo elf has no real benefit whatsoever. She's an elven cleric/mage which is not a combination that race is usually allowed, but since C/M aren't exactly powergaming material (and racial bonuses aren't very relevant in BG2 anyway) that's not exactly relevant.
Haer'dalis: prolific resistances and unique weapons. Being a Tiefling has its perks, it seems. Haer'dalis has a load of not only elemental resistances (50 cold, 25 fire/electricity), but also 15% resistance to *all* forms of physical damage! That is quite significant, making him a very powerful choice. If that wasn't enough, though, he also has a pair of unique swords that are alright (though short swords aren't great in general). They can both be upgraded with the ItemUpgrade mod and gain interesting effects (such as cast Greater Malison on hit), but they are not competitive with other high-end weapon choices.
Anomen: unique shield with missile protection. Mr. Unpopular continues the trend with a fairly useless unique item, a shield with 3 daily uses of Protection from Missiles. Mildly useful at times, it becomes irrelevant quite quickly. You can upgrade it with the ItemUpgrade mod and make it into one of the more powerful shields in the game, but it's still, well, a SHIELD.
Valygar: unique weapon and armor. The weapon is okay, but becomes obsolete fairly quickly. The armor is pretty good, granting immunity to charm and decent resistances. It can be further upgraded with the ItemUpgrade mod, becoming quite useful even at endgame. For Valygar himself, or for a UAI thief with murderous intent...
Korgan: some XP/gold. I admit I haven't played with the guy in a long time (I just don't like him) but I cannot recall him having anything worth mentioning. He does come with a quest which you can complete early on, but the XP and gold you gain from it is fairly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Keldorn: unique weapon and armor. As with Valygar, both are quite nice at early game, and both can be upgraded with the ItemUpgrade mod. The weapon in particular is of interest, as it essentially becomes a minor version of Carsomyr fairly early in the game (requires Demon Heart and 20 rep). The armor is decent as well in its upgraded form, rivaling most alternatives. A solid choice if you play with the mod, otherwise not overly useful.
Mazzy: unique sword and bow, can remove fear/invoke courage. Mazzy is half a paladin with her special abilities, which while marginally relevant can be useful at times. Her weapons are unimpressive, but her sword can be upgraded with the ItemUpgrade mod and become fairly decent (+5 enchantment, +1 STR bonus), though not overly powerful due to being a short sword.
Cernd: unique staff and cloak. His cloak is just a Cloak of Protection+1 with flavor, his staff pretty much completely useless. Neither can be upgraded, and so Cernd has basically nothing special going for him except his colorful and deep personality (sarcasm-alert!).
Imoen: nothing. Our little sister is as vanilla as they come, but I do believe some mod or another gives her a few minor Bhaalspawn powers in ToB, more for flavor than use. In fact, it can be argued that taking Imoen is actively *bad* for you, as she'll become the Slayer during the final battle and turn on you.
Viconia: magic resistance. Like all drow, Viconia has a good chunk of magic resistance (60-something I believe). MR is very useful in many respects, and depending on class choice and equipment can be stacked higher, too, to amazing effect. A solid pick.
Jan: special xbow, armor, goggles, gloves. Jan has the most unique equipment in the game, in more sense than one. His weapon is useless, but his gloves and goggles confer decent thieving skill bonuses that are handy especially at early game. If you don't make him a thief, they are obviously irrelevant, though the goggles do have an on-use effect that dispels invisibility. His armor on the other hand can be very useful, even powerful with the right setup. I once made him a Barbarian->Cleric, using his armor with Defender of Easthaven and Armor of Faith, stacking damage resistances left and right. Given that you can combine the armor with Bracers of Defense AC3, you can use it to some effect in several setups; especially later on in the game, where AC becomes less and less useful, while damage reduction becomes better and better.
Yoshimo: xp, some gold. Taking Yoshimo all the way nets you his heart, which you can turn in for some XP and gold. Yep, that's as good as it gets with him.
Sarevok: Deathbringer Assault. Sarevok's special ability gives a 3% chance of 200 piercing damage and 10% chance of Stun (Save vs. Spells at -4). Yep, 200. Random though it is, this is arguably the most powerful special ability in the entire game. With 10 APR, it actually happens fairly regularly, and it's nothing short of devastating when it occurs. There's few enemies in the game that can survive a hit, though I'm not 100% sure on whether it works against bosses, and what kind of damage it is/which protections affect it. Keep in mind though that he may betray you during the final battle, depending on what choices you make in ToB.
MODDED NPCS:
Solaufein: unique challenges, unique sword, magic resistance. I mention Solaufein because he comes with one of the harder fights in the game, which can be quite a nut to crack. It's a ToB encounter that happens once you're past a certain XP value, and is quite a rewarding experience, difficulty-wise. He also has a moderately tough battle in SoA, which if defeated rewards you with a special sword - which is the most broken, overpowered, cheesy bit of gear you'll ever find. I refuse to use it on principle, but if you do it's a +5 long sword with +1 APR, -2 AC, a chance for extra damage, and *permanent* DuHM, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Luck, Free Action, and Armor of Faith. Yeah, not overpowered at all. Solaufein, as a drow, also comes with innate magic resistance and a bookshelf full of pretentious philosophical babble.
NOTE: I assume all NPCs to be modified as you see fit in terms of class/kit. Personally, I also modify the race to properly fit dual/multi classing choices (while retaining the appearance, for flavor), but that's a personal choice. Racial bonuses are not the most relevant in BG2 anyway, aside from perhaps Half-Orcs, which none of the NPCs are anyway (yet...) so it's not too big a deal. That means the original NPC stats/classes don't matter at all to me, but that too is a choice I've settled on. You could argue that custom stats paired with the NPCs unique perks and items are too powerful, and I could see why; I personally think it adds some much-needed variety, and I do limit myself in terms of stats to reasonable roll-totals (usually 85 for NPCs, 90 for CHARNAME; 90/95 if I'm in a hurry). Your mileage, as always, may vary.
The NPCs I like to use for maximum effectiveness are Edwin for his amulet which gives +2 Spells/Level for Levels 1-9, Viconia for the +65% magic resistance, and Sarevok for the Deathbringer Assault. Both Edwin and Viconia make excellent Sorcerers, Edwin for the extra spells and Viconia for the 19 DEX and 18 WIS (Wish Spell). As Lord_Tansheron points out, Solaufein is wickedly powerful, challenging, and fun to play. Returning from Spellhold to Bodhi's lair with him and while in a romance with Viconia makes for a white-knuckle fight, especially if your party has less than six members to begin with.
I agree very much with your choice of NPCs, they are certainly among the best. The Undead Solaufein fight is great fun, of course less so if you have a thief to trivialize it... >_>
My own favorite party is Edwin, Viconia, Haer'dalis, and Solaufein, swapping in Sarevok in ToB for Viconia or Haer'dalis (depending on how/where I want to stack resistances). Lately I've varied things up a bit, though, taking some under-used NPCs and trying out the Nalia romance mod. Power-wise, the evil bunch definitely take the cake, though.
As for the best npc characters to power level in BG 1, you'd have to go with Edwin, Coran, Kivan, and dualed Imoen, probably. Minsc is also great as a glass cannon.
One of the "big ones" in terms of quest XP early on is the main quest. Trademeet is also fairly easy to complete, and has two per-character XP rewards (druids and Dao). Windspear Hills is easy if you skip Firkraag for later.
Dualing to mage, you also have scroll-scribing of course. With enough money on hand you can buy out most spells available, and with two mages it's double the fun. Usually I dual to mage, then scribe immediately and end up with like lvl 5 or even higher from the get-go. You could delete spells to re-scribe if you have the money, but I think that's a borderline exploitative tactic; use at your own discretion, I choose not to.
The dual-class downtime is not a big deal if you dual at lvl9. The amount of xp required to regain the class is very low, and can usually be earned in a very short amount of time (~1h). Lvl13 duals are a different matter. You'll have to do most side quests just to get to 13, and then some more to hope and regain. When I had a large portion of 13 duals in my party in earlier setups, I *barely* managed to regain the levels by the time I had finished basically every side quest before departure to Spellhold.
Once you get to Spellhold and beyond, the XP rewards increase noticeably. If you do have some stragglers, they'll catch up quickly, usually in time for the Underdark. You can also rush to Spellhold at lower levels to take advantage of this, but keep in mind that depending on your mods, there may be some annoying battles to fight there (the Lich before Dace regularly gives me trouble).
The biggest XP-bomb for sure is Watcher's Keep, though. It has a gazillion side quests with per-character XP, as well as a high number of enemies with good XP values. However, it can be quite the challenge to get through at lower levels. Also note that (afaik) the statues on Level One of WK do scale with party levels in the way that not all of them may activate if you go there too early; potentially, this can cost you loot.
Archers are gods and would have to make a slot for sure. They dominate BG1 and remain great for much of early-mid BG2. Elf, obviously.
Inquisitors are still gods.
Fighter/Thieves are great from the get go, and would have a spot. Backstabbing is good, thieving skills are handy, and late game with two class HLAs they remain very damaging. Obviously you get a demi-human, with Dwarves probably the best option due to saving throws and the +dex tome in BG1.
The last two spots (no need for a full party) would be for mage duals of one kind or another. Kensais are a little meh in BG1 for a number of reasons, so you'd maybe nod to berserkers instead. The differences late game won't be make or break IMO, and they will power through early on. A sorcerer would also be ok, though it's less optimal than a fighter kit->mage.
All in all, I think it's fine to discuss BG1 as a separate thing; but I think that BG1 and BG2 are too different to find a consistent optimization for all throughout the saga. Besides, very few people actually play like that, as the games are so different. And this *is* a BG2/ToB specific thread after all... >_>
You don't really need casters in BG1 for the most part or at all. In fact I'd say having a cleric is more useful in BG1 than a mage.
You don't really get enough spells that make a big difference, you're often better off jus using potions and, where you can, wands and scrolls. Also you have an inquisitor.
Archers are good, but a fighter thief in heavy armor (w/ find traps and detect illusions) is very decent in melee (plus you're got the returning weapons), backstabbing and shutting down casters.
Berserkers are also great early, and transition to BG2 well. The resistances are handy and they don't have the kensai weaknesses.
In comparison to your BG2 setup you're looking at:
Inquisitor = Inquisitor
Archer = Archer
Berserker->Mage = Kensai->Mage (x2)
Fighter/Thief = Kensai->Thief
I would argue that the former would be a fair bit better in BG1 up to mid game BG2 and be behind in the ToB endgame to only a small extent.
Also, in a totally custom game with 5 characters could you please tell me wich skill for the weapon do you assign to your party?
plan for my party is :
Kensai (13)->mage x2
Inquisitor
Archer
Kensai (or berserker) 13->thief
thanks in advance for your advices and sorry for my bad english.
Edit: i know you said that 4 is the perfect number for a party in bg2, but i never tried less than 6..that's why i am going with 5
As for weapon skills, it's fairly easy: you want as many people dual-wielding with +APR offhands as possible. There's only 3 of those, though, and one requires UAI. So that's your K->Thief with Scarlet Ninja-to already, and the K->Mages with Kundane and Belm, respectively. The Inquisitor is easy because you can only spend 2 points anyway, so you can get a lot of various types and switch around. 2h Swords is a given thanks to Carsomyr, I also like some ranged weapons for the early game. Archer is very easy, too: Crossbow -> Short Bow. Army Scythe and Firetooth are available very early, and then you can go for Tuigan Bow and Short Bow of Gesen later on.
That only leaves the mainhands for your three Kensais. For that, just go with the most damaging weapons in the game, i.e. Flail of Ages, Crom Faeyr, and Club of Detonation. Give Crom Faeyr to whoever has the lowest STR out of the three, so you get the most benefit, the others you can split as you like. An alternative to Club of Detonation is going for Long Swords to use Angurvadal; this has the advantage of being able to use some of the early game Long Swords like Daystar more effectively.
The exact choices depend a lot on your game progression, and the mods you use. If you're using ItemUpgrade, for example, you may want to stick with Clubs from the start, since Pitchwife+5 is very easy to get. Similarly, if you are using modified NPCs instead of all-custom chars, you may want to use one of their unique weapons in upgraded form (such as Mazzy's Sword of Arvoreen+5).
Generally, you should try to time things so you have Grandmastery in your weapon of choice as soon as you have access to it. Find out what weapons are available to you at what point, and plan accordingly. War Hammers, for example, have an amazing endgame choice (Crom Faeyr) but very few early game picks; you may want to start off using something else, then switch so you achieve GM just as you gain access to CF. This can be tricky to do, and isn't even always worth it; exact values and plans are difficult to standardize, because of the different way people play and progress through the story. One advice I can give you is that you can easily disregard offhand proficiencies, because they are only 20% of your swings and do not benefit from APR gains through proficiency points. Also, try to spend points in your dual class so that you aren't wasting any (i.e. don't put points in the same weapon in both classes). I recommend dualing at 9 instead of 13, as it'll make things a lot easier and more convenient.
Edit: i just noticed i have to restart the game again eh eh
- Berserker13/Mage: berserk state is the best ability ingame in my opinion, combined with PFMW and you are immune to everything, granted you have the normal weapons protection from hell trials. He is the ideal character to go up in frontline first once berserk mode is triggered.
weapons: BlackRazor/Argrudaval (whatever is the name i never remember)
- The F/M/C: the best tank i've played even when dispelled and/or breached or whatever he can still tank, forever... Pretty good damage as well in melee with selected weapons. They are very very strong end game and can adapt a lot.
weapons: Crom Faeyr/Defender
- The F/M/T: pretty cool toon to play with, many abilities and tricks, 80% magic resistance without gimping yourself, can breach, can backstab, can detect illusion, etc... just lovely. UAI is fun, i love the harp of pandemonium, montolio's cloak etc... And the insane traps and the fighter HLA.
weapons: Hindo's Doom(fast weapon for backstab)/The Purifier +5 (for the 30% magic resist mostly and the pretty steady dmg as well)
- The Inquisitor: awesome dude to kill mages in a matter of seconds
weapons: Piosinc Blade/firetooth crossbow loaded with stunning bolts (with attack on sight its great)/Staff of the Ram/Carsomyr.
My favorite Combo is to use the Staff of the ram until you get the proc, then switch to crossbow and GWW while staying where you are, If the guy manage to go through this without getting stunned and / or killed, then he deserves some more ! switch to your sword, smite ! crossbow again and a big lol ! hehe.
- The Wizard Slayer15/Thief: Yes ! oh yes ! he is not the greatest character around but for some reason i do like him, and he's not bad at all, far from it ! i built him as a real wizard slayer so to speak, indeed he has exactly 100% magic resistance and his favorite sword is the answerer along with some scimitars for fast backstab (the scimitar +5 spectral brand is awesome for that if u click the ability before backstabbing, you can remain hidden while doing this, it adds quite a lot of damage !)
He's also my sword master ! he has 5 pips in three different proficiencies and dual weapons maxed as well.
- The M/C not much to say, just here to ease everything up, this character was not doing much to be honest, watching the slaughtering mostly, spamming dispells, breach and the like to make things even easier.
weapons: club of detonation/storm star or quarterstaff, or nothing
I make the inquisitor and the wizard slayer cooperating and its quite fun to utterly destroy any mage that come across them. If the mage is lucky enough to cast true sight before i backstab him to death and if he also has some protection like stoneskin, he will get dispelled by the inquisitor and killed right away by both of them, when the wizard slayer hit one dude its -2AC, -15% magic resist and 10% casting failure (i suspect its much more than that) and its cumulative.
For melee the B/M the F/M/T and the F/M/C tank and kill, they breach whatever is needed as well if the M/C is too lazy to do it.
I could argue that DUHM alone makes the F/M/C a better Fighter than a single class one or than a F/M.
And he is sitting with 4 mages. While mages are very strong, he won't have nearly enough spells to spread out to make them all useful. A R/C would be much stronger than the F/M/C and he won't need a F/M/T at all. Rather replace it with a Skald or perhaps a thief -> mage dual class if he wants that mage.
Furthermore i think the FMC is the strongest character when it comes to survive melee so why not using one ? they are amazing, try one you will see by yourself.
And the F/M/T is my favorite characater because of the play style !
i played them solo first so they were at their highest level when i made the team, but true for a regular team i wont choose any of them.
I can tell you right now that unless you're running with mods those two are not going to reach any type of power until the very end of ToB.
The only reason a F/M/C and F/M/T are strong is because of the M part. And he won't have that many spells nor that high level spells in a combination like that. In your team (with a thief already) a F/M would have been stronger than the F/M/T and a C/R would have been a better choice than the F/M/C.
The C/R will level up much faster than the F/M/C.
The C/R will actually have a useful turn undead.
The C/R will grant you druid spells in your party.
The F/M/C will have arcane spells, you already got 3 other mages in your party.
The M/C will tank better than any of them.
i still think the F/M/C is very strong, stronger than any fighter/mage dual or multi when it comes to take damage, the numbers are there, PFMW and 80% dmg resistance all the time up unless dispelled you go down to 60% but the spell is instant cast, and then you have the heals, sanctuary etc...
If you do want the cleric spells then you can run a M/C and it would still be a stronger tank than the F/M/C.
Both the F/M/C and F/M/T are very strong in solo play or a small party (2-4). But if you're going to run with the 6 man party you had mentioned before, they won't be very strong at all.
And that party will only ever be strong in ToB. In my opinion it's silly to make a party that will be weak for most of the game so they can shine when you go through the last 10-15%.
Dragon Disciple with a berseker wearing the dragon armor and getting both 127% fire and 100% poison resist, spamming incendiary cloud, cloudkill and stinking cloud !
Plus, the ability to backstab is enhanced so much by the F/M part, you have a very good thac0 and bonus damage which gets multiplied and with the Mage part, you will be able to backstab far more often, I find the synergy to be too good to pass up. With some micro, the F/M/T can have the most kill of the team pretty easely.
The C/M is arguably a better tank than a F/M/C (even if he doesn't have as much HP, which can be handy in some situations like in the early BG1), that's probably true but it is no good to be a tank if you don't do anything useful during a fight. Between two casts, the C/M is useless. Even with heavy buffing, he won't ever do as much damage in melee than a F/M/C and with his cripple progression he can't fully rely on casting like a Sorcerer.
The C/R is an interesting character, only good in my mind because he can cast Iron Skin which is still worse than Stoneskin, but going from 1 class to 2 slows your progression a lot, but going from 2 to 3 not so much, plus the Ranger has a slower progression than the Fighter. A C/R generally has 1 more level in his Ranger class than the F/M/C in his Fighter class and zero (BG1 xp cap) to two (BG2 xp cap) more levels in his Cleric class than the F/M/C.
The F/M/C trades this for Sleep / Mirror Image / Stoneskin / Improved Haste / Spell Immunity / All the sequencers spells / ALL THE SPELLS REMOVALS etc. To my mind there is no contest, the Mage part is so good that the F/M/C is an improved C/R. Still, I think the C/R can be very useful for the insects spells, but he doesn't need to replace the F/M/C. And the Turning Undead is not an argument IMO, a C/R or a C/M in a 6 man party is going to be too low level anyway for it to be to worth it (it's going to work against weak foes which you can slain easely already).
Then, I think dual classes are poor powergaming character. They aren't worth the downtime, lose of HLA etc. IMO.
To me, all the usefulness of a character depends of being able to cast a useful spell every round. You can only make one special action per round and it better be a good one. Then you must be able to have a high DPS during the downtime between two special actions, which means you must be a Fighter (for the half APR from level 7/13 and specialization). And finally you must be resilient (Stoneskin).
So I think a good powergaming character is either a F/M, a F/M/T or a F/M/C. There are a few exceptions to this however.
Sorcerer : Can deserve a spot IMO. Will unlock all the high level spells first which will unlock some fights impossible without X or Y spell. Is straight up impossible to kill and omnipotent in late game if you are extremely good at the game and know every spells by heart. I think a max level Sorcerer played perfectly by some kind of awesome IA could defeat any powergaming party alone.
Inquisitor : Weak in melee but has the awesome Dispel Magic and True Sight, in a 6 man party anyone is going to be too low level for dispelling so the Inquisitor comes in handy. Can still be pretty easely countered by Spell Immunity.
Blackguard : In some fights he is going to be weak, but in most he is going to make you win in the first round by poisoning everyone. Because he can't cast Mirror Image / Stoneskin, he is going to be weak in melee, like the Inquisitor, so I think the best thing to do is to make him your archer. Poisoning every casters from range at round 1 which bypasses Mirror Image / Stoneskin and doing obscene amount of damage will win you most fights of the game. Even Liches can be poisoned, it's really good.
Cleric/Ranger : Same than the Blackguard, he is not the best character in fight because he lacks some proper buffing, but he can win you another large part of the game with the insect spells.
Blade/Skald : Only, and ONLY for clone singing the HLA song / Skald song. The character is aweful IMO, but +2(+4)AC/Hit/Damage for anyone including himself is VERY strong in a 6 man party where anyone can fight in melee. I would still only play one with the restored spell progression mod (which allows Bards to reach level 7 and 8 spells as per PnP).
To conclude, my powergaming party would be something like :
F/M/T
F/M/C
Sorcerer
Blackguard
Skald or F/I
Cleric/Ranger or F/I
From BG1 to ToB. All your thieving skills are covered from the start to the end, 95% of the fights will be won thanks to either Poison Weapon, Insect Plague or your newly unlocked spell by your Sorcerer. No dual means no weakness in the early game or in the late game. Very versatile and very powerful in pure fights. Everyone except the Blackguard will be protected from physicals attacks.
As always, I would like to apologize for my poor english, thanks for reading !