@Linkamus: I suggest you re-read the discussion, I think it's been fairly exhaustively demonstrated why K->Ms are as good as they are.
I know kensai mages are amazing. I just think the ability to pick any spell from your book at any time is just simply unrivaled.
As much as I agree with you that being able to pick any spell you know and cast it on the fly is amazing... as far as power gaming is concerned, characters that deal physical damage have the edge vs. those that deal damage with spells due to how the game mechanics work.
Add to that a character that not only deals formidable weapon damage with multiple attacks but also has the ability to self buff/debuff foes like a K>M can and it's likely that the K>M will be killing more stuff faster and with fewer resting/wishing pit stops than a sorcerer.
If spells scaled better and/or there were more ways to increase spell damage it might be different.
I disagree about melee damage having the edge over magic. At least in the end game. Greater Alacrity + Timestop + horrid wilting and other high level damage spells can dish out way more dps than any melee could. Like... If you're meleeing with a kensai mage during any somewhat major fight in the late game, there is something wrong.. in my humble opinion.
I disagree about melee damage having the edge over magic. At least in the end game. Greater Alacrity + Timestop + horrid wilting and other high level damage spells can dish out way more dps than any melee could. Like... If you're meleeing with a kensai mage during any somewhat major fight in the late game, there is something wrong.. in my humble opinion.
That is not true. It seems that way because Time Stop makes it all fire at once, but you aren't faster in terms of real time; in fact you are quite a bit slower simply because Time Stop reduces your party to 1 member, eliminating all the damage from the rest of the party.
Spells have an edge when fighting against large numbers of opponents. Outside of that, even with IA, you are simply too slow casting. A buffed K->M at high level easily deals 50 damage per hit, at 10 APR. Even with Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power, mages won't be able to compete simply due to the spell-casting speed limitations.
All this has been discussed at length already, though. Please re-read the last few pages, it's come up a few times.
@Linkamus That's already been proven wrong, pretty much. Basically, multiple characters beating on the boss melee is more dps combined than one or more sorcerers popping time stop sequentially - there's down time and only one character attacking at any time.
Having just finished a run through of BG1 with a standard NPC party I would observe that an archer or warrior with ranged weapons is easily the most powerful class for rushing through.
Given that the only fights of any concern at all are those against mages (SCS does have the unfortunate effect of exacerbating this difficulty gap as other classes simply don't improve as much with better scripting) having arrows of dispelling and the like are pretty vital, as are other classes that can dispel.
Bard gets the highest level normal dispel, but it's pretty useless overall (bards don't get that useful until lateish SoA I'd say) but Mages are the only ones who can get to level 5 spells and the grail that is breech.
Other than that you're looking at Inquisitors or Archers to dispel, and really they're probably a lot more useful in general than a mage.
Removing combat protections (PfMW mainly) and imp invisibility is the most (only) challenging part of BG1, once that's done it's pretty easy to win.
@Lord_T There seems a break here between when you describe the late game as the most challenging part, but where you often talk about breezing through it when you get there and struggling more in dualling over through SoA?
Also I still disagree about the massive importance of DPS. That's great for speeding through, but in terms of doing the game easily you are concerned with mitigating damage to yourself and then doing enough damage to handle the encounters. How much DPS you need per encounter isn't always 'as much as possible', but can be simply enough to get the job done.
Unless there is a collection of specific fights where a little extra damage can be demonstrably shown to make it easier - and by demonstrably I mean break out the numbers - I remain skeptical if DPS is as much a king as suggested.
@Iamaros: Being super strong in the late game for me is the result of having an optimized party. Most of it is a breeze to be sure, but some of the more difficult fights remain difficult (e.g. Eclipse, Ascension). It's true that I sometimes struggle more with early/mid game, but it's still easier to struggle there than to change the setup and struggle in late game instead. Also, my play style is very aggressive; if I was a bit more conservative with what I do, it would probably be easier. Still, I'm not neglecting the problem: my recent re-inclusion of Archer, for example, is specifically done with that part of the game in mind.
DPS is a big part, but you are right that mitigation is very important. The reason I don't go into detail there much is that it's largely incidental in my setups: since half my party are usually mages, having things like Stoneskins up at all times is almost a given. Also, all of my characters usually include a fighter base, partly because of the high HP and consequently higher damage-soaking potential. Since I so rarely heal mid-fight, high HP pools are essentially my best defense. But they only work well in that capacity if you have a great offense. I could go for a more defense-oriented party (and I have, like with my Barbarian->Cleric tank), but there simply aren't enough tools available in the game to make that approach better than a straight, brute-force one.
I'm still toying with the fine tuning, of course. Recently I've started going back on the DPS a bit with the lvl9 duals, sacrificing 1/2 APR for more flexibility and earlier access of the other class. Things change constantly, and I do keep the balance between offense and defense in mind; it's just that compared to the offensive tools at our disposal, the defensive ones are a bit lackluster.
@Lord_Tansheron This is just me speculating out loud and trying to reexamine some assumptions, but could it possibly be advantageous from an efficiency standpoint to take a fifth party member that is discarded once your K->Mages are up to speed? A Bard kit or a Sorcerer could shore up your capabilities in the dispel wars until your K->M have enough spells to take over and then be ditched so as not to be slowed down by their relatively lower power levels in the late game. I'm not sure it would be worth the loss in XP, though, especially since it would delay dualling and the re-acquisition of previous class powers.
@Kaigen: I've been considering going up to 5 members anyway. The reasons are several. First, with my new lvl 9 dual approach, I do not need every last drop of XP in the early/mid game quite so desperately. Second, with an Archer aboard the power in the early/mid game increases considerably, enough to offset the lower xp values. Third, I noticed that with 4 party members I reach ungodly amounts of XP even in SoA; I finished my last 4-man playthrough at just about 8.000.000 average per person - which is essentially the ToB xp cap. As high levels start hitting diminishing returns of their value, I think I can afford to up the count to 5. That would, in essence, reduce everyone's XP by 20%, which given my numbers should still put me in a comfortable enough spot.
The Inquisitor is a theoretical choice; I recognize its tremendous power, and do believe it has a firm place in the powergaming setup. However, on a personal level, I am now dropping it from my party because I find it *too* good. Currently I have replaced it with a Cleric of Lathander 12 -> Fighter, mainly to see how viable that combination is. But as I said: Inquisitor remains, to me, the cornerstone of an optimal party. I just choose to be less than optimal in order to give myself more of a challenge.
This also ties in with your question of dispel wars. While high-level combat certainly (d)evolves around that, it's actually not too much of an issue in the early game unless you decide to go and play with Liches before you're ready. By mid game, especially with the new lvl 9 duals, your mages are up to snuff and have everything you need. Even without an Inquisitor, there is little need to bring a dedicated dispeller as you suggest.
Speaking of Liches, by the way: I think that they should not be so easily dispatched by undead-destroying weapons. Mace of Disruption and Azuredge eat them for breakfast as soon as you find the tiniest gap in their defenses, and I think that's a bit too powerful. Considering what Liches are, nigh-immortal, ancient mages of the highest order, I'd think they would have found a way to deal with such weapons; if not becoming immune, then at least becoming more resistant. Heck, it's harder to destroy a Greater Mummy than it is a Lich! Turn Undead is less of an issue, because you need it to be at a really high level in order to deal with Liches - it's fine if you can poof them once you're a lvl 30+ cleric, but a lvl 11 weenie blasting them away with Azuredge is just a tad bit silly.
@Lord_Tansheron Fair enough. I'll admit I have little familiarity with the cocktail of difficulty mods you are using, so my perception of where the rough spot that dual-classing at level 13 created exists is rather fuzzy. My thought was simply that a disposable party member might allow you to maintain the level 13 dual point by shoring up the short term weaknesses such a late dual-classing can create.
I suppose with three Kensai in the party, you could also consider dual-classing some of them at different times. Since you do just fine without thieving abilities, you could easily delay that dual-class until level 13 (especially considering the faster Thief leveling rate), and perhaps one of the Mages as well. You lose the pleasing symmetry of having all of your Kensai switch over at the same time, but a staggered approach might smooth things over while still letting you get the higher APR on some characters.
@Kaigen: a valid point. K13->Thief might be better indeed.
As for your other suggestion, I'm not sure it does much. You delay the duals to 13, *and* add another member... that means less XP efficiency on two fronts. It's certainly doable, I'm just not sure it's better than the alternative. Not to mention that, as I mentioned, dispel wars etc. can actually largely be avoided until a little later in the game.
The Inquisitor is a theoretical choice; I recognize its tremendous power, and do believe it has a firm place in the powergaming setup. However, on a personal level, I am now dropping it from my party because I find it *too* good. Currently I have replaced it with a Cleric of Lathander 12 -> Fighter, mainly to see how viable that combination is. But as I said: Inquisitor remains, to me, the cornerstone of an optimal party. I just choose to be less than optimal in order to give myself more of a challenge....
@Lord_Tansheron: For your Cleric12->Fighter, have you considered "Pitchwife"? 1d6 + 10 + 3 + ...
---------------------- C2BLUN01 - Club +5: Pitchwife [WW Item Upgrade]
Resistance to Acid: +25%
THAC0: +5 DMG: 1d6 + 5, +5 Acid DMG / 3 points of extra DMG/round for four rounds DMG Type: Crushing Weight: 3 Speed Factor: 1 Proficiency Type: Club Type: 1-Handed Requires: 5 Strength NOT Usable by Mage
BLUN22 - Club +3, Blackblood [Trademeet Vendor] BLUN24 - Club +2, Gnasher [Druid Grove, Druid outside Temple] Cromwell / 15,000 Gold ----------------------
@Curmudgeon: that is what I am using, yes. At least until I get Club of Detonation. My weapon setup is currently this:
K9->M: Short Sword of Mask+4/Dakkon's Zerth Blade (will get Crom Faeyr/Kundane soon) K9->M: FoA+3/Belm K9->T: Daystar/Defender of Easthaven (will get Sunblade/Scarlet Ninja-to soon) Archer: Light Crossbow of Speed/Tuigan Bow CoL12->F: Pitchwife/Shield
I'm just about wrapping up the Underdark (in Mind Flayer Lair, rest done), just around 2.500.000xp each. Rushed down there this time to get Crom/Sunblade sooner, so I have most side quests and WK still to do.
@Lord_Tansheron: Does Pitchwife's 3 extra damage/round for four rounds snowball depending on the number of attacks you have?
Just curious. Have you ever played a no-reload game with your usual mod and difficulty configuration? Does (Would) the composition of your most effective party change?
I am not interested in no-reload at all, because it forces an extremely conservative play style that I find far too tedious. The basic precepts would probably remain the same, though I'd consider extremely small parties, too - simply because they are easier to protect. You don't care about efficiency in that scenario, only pure survival. You'd also need to leave early levels ASAP, and would probably favor multi over dual class.
So yeah, a whole different set of variables for such specific challenges. I understand what people find attractive about them, but I personally can't bring myself to do them. I tend to play very aggressively, and very quickly - both of which spell certain death with no-reload. Also, I am very much one to experiment - I frequently try things out, vary strategies, consider exotic approaches. That, for me, is much more fun than clinging to life at every turn.
@Curmudgeon: On Pitchwife - I haven't done dedicated testing, but it seems that the damage does not stack. You get 3 damage every so often, not more; the duration might be extended, I don't know for sure, but the damage doesn't seem to go up, nor happen more often. In theory it should be nice to interrupt mages, but in practice I've basically never seen it do that - once I get to actually hit mages, they die. It's still a decent weapon, though, and (most importantly) very easy to get. Perhaps too easy... even without the splinters, it ranks just below a fully upgraded Foebane, which is too good for something you can get early in Chapter 2. But that's a general problem with the ItemUpgrade mod, it's still unbalanced in places - but it's the best item mod I know of. If you have alternative suggestions for a similar mod (i.e. expand on item and weapon type variety) please let me know!
@Curmudgeon: I'll check out the Item Pack mod, thanks! And yes I do know the Underrepresented Items mod, and find it fairly useless. Adding everything onto a vendor is a very bad solution.
Finished the run with my new Inquisitor-less setup now. Overall, it was noticeably more annoying, especially at early game. At late game, the difference was far less pronounced, and I could compensate easily. Having a thief to Detect Illusions helped a bunch!
Speaking of thief, I found the K9->T quite alright. I might consider K13->T instead, as thieves do level quite quickly and I'd rather have more fighter levels. I tried microing in more backstabs this time as well, but found it too much of a hassle. Outside of a few specific situations (like early game random city ambushes at night) it wasn't all that necessary. I did end the game with >150 Invisibility Potions, I suppose I could have been more prolific. Detect Illusions was golden, as I mentioned, and Spike Traps certainly cheese certain encounters (like Twisted Rune, or the final seal in WK).
The Cleric of Lathander 12 -> Fighter on the other hand was not very impressive. While it worked as planned, it just... didn't do much. A fighter with DuHM and Righteous Magic is great, but it took quite a while to get the cleric to 12 and regain the levels (5-man party after all). Also, I didn't really use many spells. The two I mentioned, and Protection from Evil 10' radius pretty much, and little else. I think if I'd just gone with another K9->M, I'd have gotten more bang out of it, despite the missing APR offhand. Without an Inquisitor, there is a lot of chain-dispelling going on, and having an extra mage helps.
Concerning mages, I've grown to love Dragon's Breath lately. I only used it occasionally till now, but I've started blasting stuff more and more now, and it works quite effectively. Since it bypasses MR, it can be effective even against enemies you'd normally not use too many spells against (like Mind Flayers), and its knockdown-effect can randomly blast enemies into oblivion pretty much instantly. I'd also like to mention Khelben's Warding Whip. While I certainly knew how good it was before this playthrough, I'd just like to state it again in case people still underestimate it: this spell is insanely good! It handles the plethora of immunity effects out there effectively and it just keeps on going and going. I've gone to filling all of my lvl7 slots with it, and never looked back. The only time I use a different dispel is when I use Spell Thrust to dispel Spell Shield (and on lower levels of course) - wouldn't want to waste a Whip!
The Archer has pretty much performed as expected. It does what it's supposed to do extremely well, i.e. dominate early/mid game. In late game, it becomes support and utility, though I didn't pwn quite as much as I'd hoped with my Underdark cache of Paralytic Bolts Still, I find Archers versatile and fun to play, and watching them mow down an entire nest of Beholders with the Critical Strike HLA makes me giggle every time. I think for a 5-person party, they are definitely worth their salt; early game can have some icky spots, where the Archer saves the day. Their performance drops noticeably, though. I regularly checked the % of party kills, and it's pretty clear how things work: they start as powerhouses (well over 50%), and as soon as the Kensai->Mages catch up in levels and get some of the better weapons, the Archer goes into a tailspin. At the end of the game, both K->Ms had overtaken the Archer, and the K->T was getting close. Maybe I'll be bold and try Weimer's Generic Archer kit after all, dualing into mage. Won't do much in terms of bows, but that's alright, my trusted LXoS can do the job. It might be a tad bit cheesy, I'm not sure, and it would definitely have to be a 13 dual, as APR are super important with ranged attacks.
For now, I don't really have a testing schedule anymore though. Most of my questions have been explored, and I don't really have much left I want to try out. My biggest qualms with the game remain the itemization, and the remaining few bits of cheese, like Spike Traps. For those I might consider the Rogue Rebalancing Mod, though I probably won't get too much mileage out of it. Itemization is a real issue, though. There's like 15 weapons or so max that I use throughout the entire game, from SoA to ToB. That's not very healthy, in my opinion, but I suppose I'm partly to blame, too, for being so selective with my class setups. I definitely used some more when I was still running with a Paladin, which is no surprise given that they have more proficiency points to spend in a variety of types (due to no GM).
If anyone has ideas or suggestions for something interesting to explore in terms of powergaming, feel free to speak up! Outside of that, I think I'll be waiting for BG2:EE now, and see what changes it brings. I'm sure there will be new kits and new items to evaluate, and I'm hoping that they prove to be interesting and competitive.
IMO most of the 'rebalancing' mods add in more overpowered stuff than they fix, and make the game worse overall. I don't like using them.
As for testing something: Wizard Slayers? Some crazy Bounty Hunter dual at level 21? Have you tested Blades (though I expect they wont do much with your group setup)?
Also, yeah, use invis potions, that will make a fair difference to a thiefs damage output. Also it will help them solo clean up some stuff (sneak in, bs, invis, bs) if it's especially annoying and risky to go into a straight out fight without thinning the field (not so many of these fights).
I've tested Wizard Slayers, and also high-level thief duals. Neither does anything special enough to be worth including. WS suffer from an inherent defect, namely that any mage you get to hit is pretty much dead at that point anyway; high-level thief duals are a pain to execute, and overall almost always worse than a low dual or multi-class. BH traps are fairly irrelevant, I don't want to Maze things I want to kill them.
As for Blades, they are pretty useless for powergaming; they are just weaker versions of K->Ms and not much more. They level fairly quickly, but gain little in the process; their damage output isn't very high (low natural APR, no GM, Spin blocks Improved Haste), their thieving/lore skills irrelevant. Bard song is the only thing they bring (HLA) and only if you "abuse" game mechanics. No reason to pick them whatsoever.
The problem with BS micro, I find, is that it takes too much time. Just jumping in swords blazing is usually faster, overall, than trying to sneak around and position for a good BS. You are right in that there are a few fights where it can be useful, but that's very few indeed. Even mid-combat invis wastes time with positioning, doubly so because things tend to be rather hectic at times. With my high APR, just standing there beating on someone is often more DPS than wasting five seconds for a x5 backstab. Keep in mind that with 10 APR, you have an attack every 0.6 seconds, so you have preciously little time if you want to actually benefit from BS. Sometimes it works out nicely, but more often it doesn't.
By abuse the mechanics do you mean singing and fighting at the same time? Because I thought that was intended? (That Songs get more than one tick a round so you can do it and something else in it.)
I'm pretty sure that it's not intended for them to be singing and fighting at the same time. Same with thieves, Find Traps/Detect Illusions and fighting at the same time sounds like an unintended oversight.
I'm not 100% sure about this of course, but given that it only works if you do it in a specific sequence and fails otherwise makes me think it was not intended to be used that way.
I also consider Mislead + Bard Song to be a bug, not a feature.
@Lord_Tansheron: What do you think made the C12->Fighter lackluster? With Boon of Lathander I assume that you got to 5 ApR. Was weapon selection the problem? Did you ultimately dual Club of Detonation & Pitchwife? A mediocre combination? Sorry, rereading your post I see that you used a shield. Why that instead of dual-wielding?
PS: The BG2 Item Pack Mod, I find, has a minor bug or two (Mistaken picture icons, mistaken user prohibitions). Easily fixed using NearInfinity, but unfortunate.
I used the shield at that point, because I hadn't done WK yet. I did end up with CoD/Pitch eventually though, you are right about that. The reason I was not impressed with the C-F is that I didn't feel it did much. It was an okay fighter, but the cleric part just didn't seem to add much. It certainly made the fighter better through DuHM, RM and Boon, but I think that if I had simply gone for another K->M, even with 1 APR less, I'd have gotten more benefit out of it simply due to having more spells to throw around. The difference wouldn't be huge I suppose, I just expected more out of the cleric. Maybe I'm missing something really obvious somewhere, I just never seem to find a good use for divine spells outside of the 3, 4 spells I'm using. The fact that Clerics have so little offensive potential is somewhat annoying; there really should be a more aggressive dispel or something! The one thing I did like about the C->F was that she did well with Staff of the Ram+6 and GWW, which is quite a hilarious combination. Completely irrelevant, sadly, as it's only available at a point where you are so powerful it has very little impact.
I've looked at the item pack items, and they seem alright. Nothing too powerful for the most part, and I do like that they are hiding the stuff in various higher-level places (like WK). I'll give it a try for my next playthrough, I didn't want to upset all my planning mid-run.
I've also been looking at some mods to expand kit/class selection a bit, less for serious discussion and more for fun; unfortunately, the only one I could find that seems done well enough only has cleric kits (thought a lot of them). Anyone have some such mods they can recommend? It's tough to find a balance between useless and OP, but maybe I've overlooked something awesome somewhere...
OP is a general problem I'm having now. I've done so many runs now and delved so deeply into the details of powergaming that the game is just too easy. Dropping the Inquisitor helped, but I still murder everything horribly after I pass something like 4 or 5m xp or so; there's basically nothing that can stop me ever again. Fits well with my Bhaalspawn image, but doesn't make for terribly exciting gameplay unfortunately. I really don't like imposing some sort of challenge condition on myself, but maybe I will do a solo run or something, just to bridge the time until BG2:EE. Don't think it will be much different, if anything it'll be easier to protect myself and gain XP like crazy. Also, it doesn't really fit with the powergaming theme, so this isn't really the place to talk about stuff like that.
Comments
/thread
Sorcerer > kensai mage
Add to that a character that not only deals formidable weapon damage with multiple attacks but also has the ability to self buff/debuff foes like a K>M can and it's likely that the K>M will be killing more stuff faster and with fewer resting/wishing pit stops than a sorcerer.
If spells scaled better and/or there were more ways to increase spell damage it might be different.
Spells have an edge when fighting against large numbers of opponents. Outside of that, even with IA, you are simply too slow casting. A buffed K->M at high level easily deals 50 damage per hit, at 10 APR. Even with Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power, mages won't be able to compete simply due to the spell-casting speed limitations.
All this has been discussed at length already, though. Please re-read the last few pages, it's come up a few times.
Having just finished a run through of BG1 with a standard NPC party I would observe that an archer or warrior with ranged weapons is easily the most powerful class for rushing through.
Given that the only fights of any concern at all are those against mages (SCS does have the unfortunate effect of exacerbating this difficulty gap as other classes simply don't improve as much with better scripting) having arrows of dispelling and the like are pretty vital, as are other classes that can dispel.
Bard gets the highest level normal dispel, but it's pretty useless overall (bards don't get that useful until lateish SoA I'd say) but Mages are the only ones who can get to level 5 spells and the grail that is breech.
Other than that you're looking at Inquisitors or Archers to dispel, and really they're probably a lot more useful in general than a mage.
Removing combat protections (PfMW mainly) and imp invisibility is the most (only) challenging part of BG1, once that's done it's pretty easy to win.
Also I still disagree about the massive importance of DPS. That's great for speeding through, but in terms of doing the game easily you are concerned with mitigating damage to yourself and then doing enough damage to handle the encounters. How much DPS you need per encounter isn't always 'as much as possible', but can be simply enough to get the job done.
Unless there is a collection of specific fights where a little extra damage can be demonstrably shown to make it easier - and by demonstrably I mean break out the numbers - I remain skeptical if DPS is as much a king as suggested.
DPS is a big part, but you are right that mitigation is very important. The reason I don't go into detail there much is that it's largely incidental in my setups: since half my party are usually mages, having things like Stoneskins up at all times is almost a given. Also, all of my characters usually include a fighter base, partly because of the high HP and consequently higher damage-soaking potential. Since I so rarely heal mid-fight, high HP pools are essentially my best defense. But they only work well in that capacity if you have a great offense. I could go for a more defense-oriented party (and I have, like with my Barbarian->Cleric tank), but there simply aren't enough tools available in the game to make that approach better than a straight, brute-force one.
I'm still toying with the fine tuning, of course. Recently I've started going back on the DPS a bit with the lvl9 duals, sacrificing 1/2 APR for more flexibility and earlier access of the other class. Things change constantly, and I do keep the balance between offense and defense in mind; it's just that compared to the offensive tools at our disposal, the defensive ones are a bit lackluster.
Currently, I'm looking at this setup:
Kensai 9 -> Mage
Kensai 9 -> Mage
Kensai 9 -> Thief
Archer
Inquisitor*
The Inquisitor is a theoretical choice; I recognize its tremendous power, and do believe it has a firm place in the powergaming setup. However, on a personal level, I am now dropping it from my party because I find it *too* good. Currently I have replaced it with a Cleric of Lathander 12 -> Fighter, mainly to see how viable that combination is. But as I said: Inquisitor remains, to me, the cornerstone of an optimal party. I just choose to be less than optimal in order to give myself more of a challenge.
This also ties in with your question of dispel wars. While high-level combat certainly (d)evolves around that, it's actually not too much of an issue in the early game unless you decide to go and play with Liches before you're ready. By mid game, especially with the new lvl 9 duals, your mages are up to snuff and have everything you need. Even without an Inquisitor, there is little need to bring a dedicated dispeller as you suggest.
Speaking of Liches, by the way: I think that they should not be so easily dispatched by undead-destroying weapons. Mace of Disruption and Azuredge eat them for breakfast as soon as you find the tiniest gap in their defenses, and I think that's a bit too powerful. Considering what Liches are, nigh-immortal, ancient mages of the highest order, I'd think they would have found a way to deal with such weapons; if not becoming immune, then at least becoming more resistant. Heck, it's harder to destroy a Greater Mummy than it is a Lich! Turn Undead is less of an issue, because you need it to be at a really high level in order to deal with Liches - it's fine if you can poof them once you're a lvl 30+ cleric, but a lvl 11 weenie blasting them away with Azuredge is just a tad bit silly.
I suppose with three Kensai in the party, you could also consider dual-classing some of them at different times. Since you do just fine without thieving abilities, you could easily delay that dual-class until level 13 (especially considering the faster Thief leveling rate), and perhaps one of the Mages as well. You lose the pleasing symmetry of having all of your Kensai switch over at the same time, but a staggered approach might smooth things over while still letting you get the higher APR on some characters.
As for your other suggestion, I'm not sure it does much. You delay the duals to 13, *and* add another member... that means less XP efficiency on two fronts. It's certainly doable, I'm just not sure it's better than the alternative. Not to mention that, as I mentioned, dispel wars etc. can actually largely be avoided until a little later in the game.
1d6 + 10 + 3 + ...
----------------------
C2BLUN01 - Club +5: Pitchwife [WW Item Upgrade]
Resistance to Acid: +25%
THAC0: +5
DMG: 1d6 + 5, +5 Acid DMG / 3 points of extra DMG/round for four rounds
DMG Type: Crushing
Weight: 3
Speed Factor: 1
Proficiency Type: Club
Type: 1-Handed
Requires: 5 Strength
NOT Usable by Mage
BLUN22 - Club +3, Blackblood [Trademeet Vendor]
BLUN24 - Club +2, Gnasher [Druid Grove, Druid outside Temple]
Cromwell / 15,000 Gold
----------------------
K9->M: Short Sword of Mask+4/Dakkon's Zerth Blade (will get Crom Faeyr/Kundane soon)
K9->M: FoA+3/Belm
K9->T: Daystar/Defender of Easthaven (will get Sunblade/Scarlet Ninja-to soon)
Archer: Light Crossbow of Speed/Tuigan Bow
CoL12->F: Pitchwife/Shield
I'm just about wrapping up the Underdark (in Mind Flayer Lair, rest done), just around 2.500.000xp each. Rushed down there this time to get Crom/Sunblade sooner, so I have most side quests and WK still to do.
Just curious. Have you ever played a no-reload game with your usual mod and difficulty configuration? Does (Would) the composition of your most effective party change?
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/182/index/3120942/1
So yeah, a whole different set of variables for such specific challenges. I understand what people find attractive about them, but I personally can't bring myself to do them. I tend to play very aggressively, and very quickly - both of which spell certain death with no-reload. Also, I am very much one to experiment - I frequently try things out, vary strategies, consider exotic approaches. That, for me, is much more fun than clinging to life at every turn.
@Curmudgeon: On Pitchwife - I haven't done dedicated testing, but it seems that the damage does not stack. You get 3 damage every so often, not more; the duration might be extended, I don't know for sure, but the damage doesn't seem to go up, nor happen more often. In theory it should be nice to interrupt mages, but in practice I've basically never seen it do that - once I get to actually hit mages, they die. It's still a decent weapon, though, and (most importantly) very easy to get. Perhaps too easy... even without the splinters, it ranks just below a fully upgraded Foebane, which is too good for something you can get early in Chapter 2. But that's a general problem with the ItemUpgrade mod, it's still unbalanced in places - but it's the best item mod I know of. If you have alternative suggestions for a similar mod (i.e. expand on item and weapon type variety) please let me know!
http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/824-item-pack-v18/
It has a lot of good content. You would particularly like the tweak to SNT, which allows Fighters to use it.
And I'm sure you are aware of Weimer's Under-Represented Items mod, which makes the game considerably easier.
http://weidu.org/underrep.html
Speaking of thief, I found the K9->T quite alright. I might consider K13->T instead, as thieves do level quite quickly and I'd rather have more fighter levels. I tried microing in more backstabs this time as well, but found it too much of a hassle. Outside of a few specific situations (like early game random city ambushes at night) it wasn't all that necessary. I did end the game with >150 Invisibility Potions, I suppose I could have been more prolific. Detect Illusions was golden, as I mentioned, and Spike Traps certainly cheese certain encounters (like Twisted Rune, or the final seal in WK).
The Cleric of Lathander 12 -> Fighter on the other hand was not very impressive. While it worked as planned, it just... didn't do much. A fighter with DuHM and Righteous Magic is great, but it took quite a while to get the cleric to 12 and regain the levels (5-man party after all). Also, I didn't really use many spells. The two I mentioned, and Protection from Evil 10' radius pretty much, and little else. I think if I'd just gone with another K9->M, I'd have gotten more bang out of it, despite the missing APR offhand. Without an Inquisitor, there is a lot of chain-dispelling going on, and having an extra mage helps.
Concerning mages, I've grown to love Dragon's Breath lately. I only used it occasionally till now, but I've started blasting stuff more and more now, and it works quite effectively. Since it bypasses MR, it can be effective even against enemies you'd normally not use too many spells against (like Mind Flayers), and its knockdown-effect can randomly blast enemies into oblivion pretty much instantly.
I'd also like to mention Khelben's Warding Whip. While I certainly knew how good it was before this playthrough, I'd just like to state it again in case people still underestimate it: this spell is insanely good! It handles the plethora of immunity effects out there effectively and it just keeps on going and going. I've gone to filling all of my lvl7 slots with it, and never looked back. The only time I use a different dispel is when I use Spell Thrust to dispel Spell Shield (and on lower levels of course) - wouldn't want to waste a Whip!
The Archer has pretty much performed as expected. It does what it's supposed to do extremely well, i.e. dominate early/mid game. In late game, it becomes support and utility, though I didn't pwn quite as much as I'd hoped with my Underdark cache of Paralytic Bolts
Maybe I'll be bold and try Weimer's Generic Archer kit after all, dualing into mage. Won't do much in terms of bows, but that's alright, my trusted LXoS can do the job. It might be a tad bit cheesy, I'm not sure, and it would definitely have to be a 13 dual, as APR are super important with ranged attacks.
For now, I don't really have a testing schedule anymore though. Most of my questions have been explored, and I don't really have much left I want to try out. My biggest qualms with the game remain the itemization, and the remaining few bits of cheese, like Spike Traps. For those I might consider the Rogue Rebalancing Mod, though I probably won't get too much mileage out of it. Itemization is a real issue, though. There's like 15 weapons or so max that I use throughout the entire game, from SoA to ToB. That's not very healthy, in my opinion, but I suppose I'm partly to blame, too, for being so selective with my class setups. I definitely used some more when I was still running with a Paladin, which is no surprise given that they have more proficiency points to spend in a variety of types (due to no GM).
If anyone has ideas or suggestions for something interesting to explore in terms of powergaming, feel free to speak up! Outside of that, I think I'll be waiting for BG2:EE now, and see what changes it brings. I'm sure there will be new kits and new items to evaluate, and I'm hoping that they prove to be interesting and competitive.
As for testing something: Wizard Slayers? Some crazy Bounty Hunter dual at level 21? Have you tested Blades (though I expect they wont do much with your group setup)?
Also, yeah, use invis potions, that will make a fair difference to a thiefs damage output. Also it will help them solo clean up some stuff (sneak in, bs, invis, bs) if it's especially annoying and risky to go into a straight out fight without thinning the field (not so many of these fights).
As for Blades, they are pretty useless for powergaming; they are just weaker versions of K->Ms and not much more. They level fairly quickly, but gain little in the process; their damage output isn't very high (low natural APR, no GM, Spin blocks Improved Haste), their thieving/lore skills irrelevant. Bard song is the only thing they bring (HLA) and only if you "abuse" game mechanics. No reason to pick them whatsoever.
The problem with BS micro, I find, is that it takes too much time. Just jumping in swords blazing is usually faster, overall, than trying to sneak around and position for a good BS. You are right in that there are a few fights where it can be useful, but that's very few indeed. Even mid-combat invis wastes time with positioning, doubly so because things tend to be rather hectic at times. With my high APR, just standing there beating on someone is often more DPS than wasting five seconds for a x5 backstab. Keep in mind that with 10 APR, you have an attack every 0.6 seconds, so you have preciously little time if you want to actually benefit from BS. Sometimes it works out nicely, but more often it doesn't.
I'm not 100% sure about this of course, but given that it only works if you do it in a specific sequence and fails otherwise makes me think it was not intended to be used that way.
I also consider Mislead + Bard Song to be a bug, not a feature.
With Boon of Lathander I assume that you got to 5 ApR. Was weapon selection the problem?
Did you ultimately dual Club of Detonation & Pitchwife? A mediocre combination?
Sorry, rereading your post I see that you used a shield. Why that instead of dual-wielding?
PS: The BG2 Item Pack Mod, I find, has a minor bug or two (Mistaken picture icons, mistaken user prohibitions). Easily fixed using NearInfinity, but unfortunate.
I've looked at the item pack items, and they seem alright. Nothing too powerful for the most part, and I do like that they are hiding the stuff in various higher-level places (like WK). I'll give it a try for my next playthrough, I didn't want to upset all my planning mid-run.
I've also been looking at some mods to expand kit/class selection a bit, less for serious discussion and more for fun; unfortunately, the only one I could find that seems done well enough only has cleric kits (thought a lot of them). Anyone have some such mods they can recommend? It's tough to find a balance between useless and OP, but maybe I've overlooked something awesome somewhere...
OP is a general problem I'm having now. I've done so many runs now and delved so deeply into the details of powergaming that the game is just too easy. Dropping the Inquisitor helped, but I still murder everything horribly after I pass something like 4 or 5m xp or so; there's basically nothing that can stop me ever again. Fits well with my Bhaalspawn image, but doesn't make for terribly exciting gameplay unfortunately. I really don't like imposing some sort of challenge condition on myself, but maybe I will do a solo run or something, just to bridge the time until BG2:EE. Don't think it will be much different, if anything it'll be easier to protect myself and gain XP like crazy. Also, it doesn't really fit with the powergaming theme, so this isn't really the place to talk about stuff like that.