Lord_Tansheron let me what you think of the multi-class fighter/thief when you feel like its been tested enough. Would love to get your thoughts on how the class performed from a power gaming perspective which you seem to know a lot about. I'm not a power gamer whatsoever. So I'm looking forward to your conclusions. Cheers.
i must say that demogorgon fight is really easy i had better fun trying those demons in level 3 of watchers keep
maybe he is bugged? he had pfmw stone skin some spell turning and that is
dragons are scarier AOE breath 300+ dmg wings spells level 3 WK was scarier dead magic rooms many demons in small rooms demi-liches are way stronger i can't kill it because i run out of spells and characters to tank his spells
the only real uestion is. are 2 man party faster at going than 6 man party?
i am wondering with my LP is it necessary to have full party? is it ok to have smaller party like 3? or 2? or even 2 but adding another when your main character is high level?
since most hard enemies are mages and killing mages is easies with a mage you don't need 6 fighters killing stuff because if you can't destroy mages protections they are useless
for example party of 2 ranger/cleric + sorc ranger/cleric do what ranger/cleric does so he just destroy everything with buffs and sorcerer levels when sorcerer can destroy everything with dragon breath and other spells you can add some characters for when you are too lazy dragon breathing giberlings
ranger/cleric could be berserker/cleric or paladin/cavalier for karsomir and cleric spells + fighter hla this time only inuisitor maybe not the best option - sorc will level so fast to high level spells that dispell 2x won't be better than duhm with paladin and armor of faith 25% or even fighter/thief with karsomyr with UAI he can be scroll-mage becaues sorc can cast his own spells and doesn't read scrolls valygar's armor for 25% magic DR jan's armor for 25% DR
sorc maybe a wild mage or edwin but i don't know sorc is probably the best because with faster leveling he will get spells easy
I think that, in order to calculate what number is optimal, we need the exact number of experience that is obtained through the entire saga, including importing a character from BGEE with expansion experience cap. Maybe I can check my solo sorcerer run before I reached the hard cap and see how much exp it got, although I believe I skipped some quests.
2-3-4 characters will be more powerful (individually due to higher level, ignoring class specific balance) than 6, but you will also have less overall Hit Points, less actions per round and less chances of putting to use powerful weapons (or other items). So all has to be considered.
About Ranger/Cleric vs Berserker/Cleric, I think that the main advantage of Ranger/Cleric is being able to cast all druid spells, so that should be taken into account as well.
1. your team looks good but 2. you have 6 characters like me so that means we level up the slowest 3. buffing is really minor because you actually can't cast in gaps of 6 seconds that's how long is 1round and i am lazy 4. wizard slayer/thief dual or mage dual is great for killing every big guy like dragons with spells but liches are still a big problem 5. level 7 or 9 dual is i think worth it if you have modified grand mastery that gives 0,5 apr that way you are only 0,5 short from grand mastery 13 fighter
2. I don't mind slow leveling, as in this run I want to enjoy the tactical aspect, so I want more things to do. I have modded it so all enemies have maxed HP dice as well. 4. I'll get to see that soon, but I kinda miss having a thief already, as some traps are dealing like 80 of damage right now. Fairly annoying. 5. I have the un-nerfed grandmastery, so 13 is the best, but for the others I want a few more spells in the end.
Smaller parties have an advantage, but that tapers off again once they become TOO small. The reason for this is twofold:
#1: Enemy HP don't scale with party size. More party members means more damage output on the same HP, resulting in faster kills and more DPS.
#2: The benefit of levels decreases at high levels. Early on every level is worth a lot, but there isn't a big difference between lvl30 and lvl40 characters. If you can get two people to lvl50 it's not better than having three people at lvl40, or four people at lvl30 (numbers not to scale).
I am still unsure as to what the optimal size is, but my current testing suggests 4 or 5. Likely 4 with heavy multi and dual class, and scrapping thief completely.
I was going to add, though the fighter/thief is extremely solid, my favorite is the assassin kit. They're extremely fun and effective finesse style character.
While thieves are fun and undoubtedly add a lot of QoL, they just don't bring enough bang. They have no combat buffs, and their big attack (backstab) doesn't work against many of the difficult mobs (liches, beholders, bosses, etc.). Locks can be opened with Knock, traps can be avoided or brute-forced. In the end, the only reason I was using a thief turned out to be UAI in order to use Scarlet Ninja-to. Losing that sucks to be sure, but if you make the party small enough, you can do without it.
Of course, that's from a powergaming perspective. Thieves are fun, they are cool, they are flavorful - do not let power rob you of that, at least not unless you know exactly what you're in for.
That's why I was curious if some of these difficulty mods change things around cause In the vanilla game liches can be poisoned and backstabbed. Beholders can be poisoned. Heck even some of the dragons can be poisoned. Some of the undead spirits that can drain your level can also be poisoned. Anything left can be killed with traps. Now granted its not brute force but it gets the job done just as effectively but in a more finesse-oriented manner. If these mods do remove a lot of these various tricks then yea a thief will be useless. But if that's the case I'm not sure if like a mod that forces me into a bottleneck of playing only certain classes rendering others useless. Now granted I'm more of role player as opposed to a "let me see how quickly I can kill something" type of player. So for me I've never seen thieves as weak at all. But again I don't play with added mods that change the core gameplay around. I guess you have a completely different perspective cause you're seeing the fighter/thief as just okay while I've always thought they were a powerhouse...lol. I guess I suck...lol.
but why having 4 when you can go easy with 2 like my statement? little guys are no problem - 2 char easy liches are dead when they have no protections - this is why sorc beholders are easy with mage - sorc bosses i don't know i'm not there - yet thiefs are not mandatory and still fighter/thief can be really good with HLAs from fighter thief UAI and other stuff like scrolls actualy he could be the most OP of all coz of UAI with jan's armor defender of east heaven + damage reduced HLA it was like 85% DR
i need to test 2 char party sorc + something for fastest spell progression + epic spells and someone with great melee
That's why I was curious if some of these difficulty mods change things around cause In the vanilla game liches can be poisoned and backstabbed. Beholders can be poisoned. Heck even some of the dragons can be poisoned. Some of the undead spirits that can drain your level can also be poisoned. Anything left can be killed with traps. Now granted its not brute force but it gets the job done just as effectively but in a more finesse-oriented manner. If these mods do remove a lot of these various tricks then yea a thief will be useless. But if that's the case I'm not sure if like a mod that forces me into a bottleneck of playing only certain classes rendering others useless. Now granted I'm more of role player as opposed to a "let me see how quickly I can kill something" type of player. So for me I've never seen thieves as weak at all. But again I don't play with added mods that change the core gameplay around. I guess you have a completely different perspective cause you're seeing the fighter/thief as just okay while I've always thought they were a powerhouse...lol. I guess I suck...lol.
yes thiefs are kind of useless in moded version and it is sad
Ah that's what I suspected. Again I don't think I could play a mod that forced me to only use certain classes. I'm one of those guys that likes having a nice variation of races and classes in their party. Since this thread is about power gaming, what are the most powerful classes and races to use with these mods? My guess would be a party of dual classed spell casters or 6 sorcerers.
But what could a 6th possibly be? I realize of course that I don't NEED a full party by any stretch, but from a purely academical perspective I'd like to know if there is something missing. A big reason why I'm having trouble deciding, of course, is the fact that I wouldn't know what weapon to give them. The +APR ones are all taken, so dual-wielding loses a lot of its appeal. I could OH Crom Faeyr for 25 STR, but paired with what? Spectral Brand? Axe of the Unyielding? Nothing seems too appealing. And class-wise, what could I take? I'm worried I'm running out of proper equipment/scrolls for yet another arcane caster, I already have a thief and cleric... what, then, could I be missing?
i actually don't know if humans are better if you compare fighter/thief dwarf and kensai13/thief dwarf will have better ST dwarf will have fighter hla's that means critical + 40% damage reduction kensai kai kensai 0,5 apr more = 1 apr after improved haste i really don't know who is better in the long run
@zur312 It's definitely doable with a 2-man party. But that's not what powergaming is about - it's about how it's done BEST, or most efficiently. And for the reasons I've given, 2-man parties are probably not the most efficient.
2-man can definitely rock the early game, though, especially with a Sorceror.
the point is faster leveling who would choose sorcerer in 6 man party? but in 2 man party he will level up so fast to higher levels that it could make a difference
While that's true, it still doesn't change my second argument: high levels don't actually scale well. Sure you get there faster, but then what? lvl30 or lvl40 is so little difference in damage, or in case of Sorcerer, almost no difference at all. Rather have more people on 30 then, no?
and that is the difference sorcerer reaches max potential early in the game and he could kill everything while 6 man party need to level up doing easy quests because they can't do harder enemies
so you can add melee characters to sorcerer later on and it is probably the best part
and adding melee like ranger/cleric with sorcerer will enable him fighting resisting monsters in early game
It's not as much of a speed gain. Sorcerers don't just "kill everything"; they can kill everything, but it takes a while. Ever taken on a pack of golems with a Sorcerer?
they are probably resisting magic? ;D ok so sorcerer will hide from fgolems but kill anything else while 6 man party need to avoid everything powerfull
I think you're biased towards your part of the argument. It's not like you have a steamroller vs. a tricycle here. Yes you have an early game advantage, but it doesn't take long for it to be overcome. Plus, my argument isn't a 6-man party of full duals or anything - it's a 4-man party. They will be powerful quite quickly, too.
Comments
i had better fun trying those demons in level 3 of watchers keep
maybe he is bugged? he had pfmw stone skin some spell turning and that is
dragons are scarier AOE breath 300+ dmg wings spells
level 3 WK was scarier dead magic rooms many demons in small rooms
demi-liches are way stronger i can't kill it because i run out of spells and characters to tank his spells
wth?
just watched imprisoned one part and it looks fine to me on audio side hmm i don't know what is going on
i am wondering with my LP
is it necessary to have full party?
is it ok to have smaller party like 3? or 2?
or even 2 but adding another when your main character is high level?
since most hard enemies are mages and killing mages is easies with a mage
you don't need 6 fighters killing stuff because if you can't destroy mages protections they are useless
for example
party of 2
ranger/cleric + sorc
ranger/cleric do what ranger/cleric does so he just destroy everything with buffs and sorcerer levels
when sorcerer can destroy everything with dragon breath and other spells you can add some characters for when you are too lazy dragon breathing giberlings
ranger/cleric could be berserker/cleric
or paladin/cavalier for karsomir and cleric spells + fighter hla
this time only inuisitor maybe not the best option - sorc will level so fast to high level spells that dispell 2x won't be better than duhm with paladin and armor of faith 25%
or even fighter/thief with karsomyr with UAI he can be scroll-mage becaues sorc can cast his own spells and doesn't read scrolls
valygar's armor for 25% magic DR
jan's armor for 25% DR
sorc maybe a wild mage or edwin but i don't know
sorc is probably the best because with faster leveling he will get spells easy
2-3-4 characters will be more powerful (individually due to higher level, ignoring class specific balance) than 6, but you will also have less overall Hit Points, less actions per round and less chances of putting to use powerful weapons (or other items). So all has to be considered.
About Ranger/Cleric vs Berserker/Cleric, I think that the main advantage of Ranger/Cleric is being able to cast all druid spells, so that should be taken into account as well. 2. I don't mind slow leveling, as in this run I want to enjoy the tactical aspect, so I want more things to do. I have modded it so all enemies have maxed HP dice as well.
4. I'll get to see that soon, but I kinda miss having a thief already, as some traps are dealing like 80 of damage right now. Fairly annoying.
5. I have the un-nerfed grandmastery, so 13 is the best, but for the others I want a few more spells in the end.
#1: Enemy HP don't scale with party size. More party members means more damage output on the same HP, resulting in faster kills and more DPS.
#2: The benefit of levels decreases at high levels. Early on every level is worth a lot, but there isn't a big difference between lvl30 and lvl40 characters. If you can get two people to lvl50 it's not better than having three people at lvl40, or four people at lvl30 (numbers not to scale).
I am still unsure as to what the optimal size is, but my current testing suggests 4 or 5. Likely 4 with heavy multi and dual class, and scrapping thief completely.
Of course, that's from a powergaming perspective. Thieves are fun, they are cool, they are flavorful - do not let power rob you of that, at least not unless you know exactly what you're in for.
little guys are no problem - 2 char easy
liches are dead when they have no protections - this is why sorc
beholders are easy with mage - sorc
bosses i don't know i'm not there - yet
thiefs are not mandatory and still fighter/thief can be really good with HLAs from fighter thief UAI and other stuff like scrolls actualy he could be the most OP of all coz of UAI with jan's armor defender of east heaven + damage reduced HLA it was like 85% DR
i need to test 2 char party sorc + something for fastest spell progression + epic spells and someone with great melee
kensai13/mage
wizard slayer9/thief
wizard slayer9/mage
inquisitor
berserker9/cleric
shapeshifter13/fighter
and there are similar with less of wizard slayers
another team already playing
if you compare fighter/thief dwarf and kensai13/thief
dwarf will have better ST
dwarf will have fighter hla's that means critical + 40% damage reduction
kensai kai
kensai 0,5 apr more = 1 apr after improved haste
i really don't know who is better in the long run
definitly dwarf is more tank oriented
2-man can definitely rock the early game, though, especially with a Sorceror.
the point is faster leveling
who would choose sorcerer in 6 man party?
but in 2 man party he will level up so fast to higher levels that it could make a difference
while 6 man party need to level up doing easy quests because they can't do harder enemies
so you can add melee characters to sorcerer later on and it is probably the best part
and adding melee like ranger/cleric with sorcerer will enable him fighting resisting monsters in early game
ok so sorcerer will hide from fgolems but kill anything else while 6 man party need to avoid everything powerfull
but considering2 man party leveling to epic levels and adding melee later for more melee would be not much different