death fog kind of works but he is still casting and still killing me
maybe with 3 deathfogs that would work? ________________________________________ i will paste this again because we got sidetracked by lich that is more impossible than improved fire giants aka impossible fire giants
also i don't know if team with all partial mages would be better
if 1 dispell can ruin your protections from protections why even bother?
if 1 dispell can ruin your protections from protections why even bother?
Because you don't always get dispelled. In fact, you only rarely do, and you can usually position yourself to minimize its effects. Dispel Magic is a missile-type spell; you can run away from it with the person targeted and thus have its splash-effect occur in an area that doesn't hit too many of your party members.
In addition, you can metagame around it. You only really NEED your buffs in very specific scenarios. At all other times its an augmentation, but not a requirement. Plan ahead and know what you have to maintain (like certain immunities, or damage protections) and what is optional.
I am no big friend of the F/M/T (outside of solo); there is little reason to have high thief levels. Also, pairing several multi-class characters essentially makes your party larger, meaning you will end up lower levels in all your classes at the end. This can be more detrimental than any advantage you'd get.
And why a cleric/mage? Seems fairly useless and weak. Clerics can melee, but rather poorly; certainly nothing compared to a fighter-dual.
You are right in that you probably want a substantial number of mages to deal with enemy protections. That is why I run with two Kensai->Mages, and an Inquisitor. It gives you access to all the tools, with redundancies and workarounds. Thieves are fairly useless in high-difficulty high-mod games because a lot of mobs are immune to backstab and/or traps (for obvious reasons).
It seems to me like you're trying to take on things too early. A big part of powergaming is knowing how to balance your relative power at various stages in the game. There is no solution that is ALWAYS the best at ANYTHING available (at least not in games of sufficient difficulty). You have to set yourself priorities. If that means saving certain Liches, or WK, until after the Underdark, then by all means... I find such compromise to be more effective than having a hard time later on in ToB, when there's one tough boss fight after the other and you suddenly find yourself lacking.
Don't get too hung up on flexibility. You don't need all the options all the time, not if you know what to expect, where to go, and how to react properly. It's an intuitive and understandable reaction to want to overload on multi-class just to have "that one spell" ready at that one moment; but in the end, you probably could have approached the problem differently, and more elegantly, without resorting to such diluting compositions.
I suppose it may be a personal bias, but I find that damage > all in this game. You can prevent a lot of grief by simply dishing out so much offensive power that the enemy is dead before they become dangerous. Trying to out-trick an AI that has been specifically scripted with a near infinite arsenal of specific counter-measures seems like the wrong approach. Better just muscle through it!
i don't rarely do get dispelled liches always dispells! ;D
yeah i probably got a little angry about those liches ________________________________ LICH level 7 Warding Whip - omg this only dispells magic protection LOL
breach doesn't work = 5th level too low
funny thing _without immunity abjuration_ dispells work! so with lucky mass dispell and inquisitor can do the job contingency dispells spell sequencer dispells etc. just go for quantity over quality ; D pierce magic from wands or scrolls can target improved invisible object and remove immunity abjuration than proceed with barrage of dispells _____________________________________ Fixed by SCSII:
More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning)
Although it isn't documented, the 5th level spell Breach will remove a creature's combat protections (such as Stoneskin) even if that creature is protected by Spell Deflection, Spell Turning or Spell Trap; it will not, however, affect creatures like liches or rakshasas, because they are immune to spells of level 5 or below. This component removes both features: Breach now bounces off Spell Turning (etc.), but it affects even those creatures immune to "normal" 5th level spells. http://www.gibberlings3.net/scsii/spell.php ______________ how can i see if i have this component installed? "~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2010 // More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning): v21" from weidu.log
so for me i doesn't work _________________ works fine rubyray level 7(scroll) followed by pierce magic level 6 followed by breach level 5 with mods than it is only who cast faster breach vs another PFMW and contingencies from lich with improved invisibility vs inquisitor with true seeing etc. but finally! The problem was something deflecting breaches with 10-20 lines of text spells from first contingency when Lich buffs.
this is kind of weird because wand of breach works vs improved invisibility and your memorized breach won't go off because he is invisible
I know it seems counter-intuitive... but the best way to kill mages/liches with lots of protection magic is to just beat the snot out of them in melee. If you have enough attacks / round then you can muscle down a stoneskin really fast. I guess you could switch to non-magical weapons but I just wait for the Protection from Magic Weapons to wear off.
The only battle I had trouble with was the one where the Lich has a bunch of other monsters spawn and attack you. Imprisonment was annoying as well, I had to use my berserker to draw fire.
OP means Overpowered (or Original Post/Poster in a thread, but not in this case). It's used quite gratuitously within the gaming community... think of it as "very, very good". It rarely means actual game imbalance, though it can.
Multiclass is strong in small parties. Still, you lose the kit benefits of dual-class, which isn't always worth it. Essentially, there are only very few HLAs that are actually worth taking (from a powergaming perspective of course). The decision of whether more HLAs are worth losing kit benefits is not one that can be generalized, especially since games and setups vary wildly.
Regarding sorcerer, it is in my opinion quite overrated; melee damage is simply higher, and more consistent in a majority of cases. Of course, there's fringe scenarios where this isn't true as well, such as solo play.
Thank you very much.
I generally agree about melee guys being more effective than spellchuckers. I just think a well-planned sorcerer is a walking artillery. Nasty!
I also don't fall in love with dual classers. The kensai/Mage is so overrated it isn't even funny. And, speaking from. Power gamers view, no HLA is an nice as greater whirl wind. And he more, the merrier.
I know it seems counter-intuitive... but the best way to kill mages/liches with lots of protection magic is to just beat the snot out of them in melee. If you have enough attacks / round then you can muscle down a stoneskin really fast. I guess you could switch to non-magical weapons but I just wait for the Protection from Magic Weapons to wear off.
Liches are naturally immune to non-magical weapons. If they have PfMW up, you will not be able to hit them at all, in any way. Stoneskin is never the problem - PfMW is.
I generally agree about melee guys being more effective than spellchuckers. I just think a well-planned sorcerer is a walking artillery. Nasty!
I also don't fall in love with dual classers. The kensai/Mage is so overrated it isn't even funny. And, speaking from. Power gamers view, no HLA is an nice as greater whirl wind. And he more, the merrier.
Sorcerer certainly has its merits, but it just falls short on throughput. Spells only ever do more damage than melee if they hit a large number of enemies at once (Horrid Wilting), or of course if something is immune to physical damage (like Magic Swords). Outside of that, melee will always deliver more damage, and that's not even going into things like magic resistance or immunities to certain spell levels.
Kensai->Mage is in no way overrated. It remains the most consistent, most resilient, and most damaging class out there. The only ones who can compete are Thieves using backstabs/Spike Trap, and many mods (rightly) nerf these significantly. What part exactly is overrated about a max-APR arcane caster with significant damage bonuses, max-damage on demand, and nigh-indestructibility?
Speaking of APR: Greater Whirlwind is in fact the one that is quite overrated. The best HLA is Critical Strike by far; with the right setup, you will cap your (dual-wielding) melees at 10 APR under Improved Haste - which lasts longer than GWW, and doesn't take an activation. Critical Strike will deliver MASSIVE amounts of damage against anything not immune to crits, and even against those that are (like bosses), it will still guarantee a hit against any AC. I only ever use GWW on characters that are lacking in APR, and even there it's often worse than Critical Strike (8 or 9 APR is still plenty, when every hit crits/auto-hits).
I know it seems counter-intuitive... but the best way to kill mages/liches with lots of protection magic is to just beat the snot out of them in melee. If you have enough attacks / round then you can muscle down a stoneskin really fast. I guess you could switch to non-magical weapons but I just wait for the Protection from Magic Weapons to wear off.
Liches are naturally immune to non-magical weapons. If they have PfMW up, you will not be able to hit them at all, in any way. Stoneskin is never the problem - PfMW is.
I generally agree about melee guys being more effective than spellchuckers. I just think a well-planned sorcerer is a walking artillery. Nasty!
I also don't fall in love with dual classers. The kensai/Mage is so overrated it isn't even funny. And, speaking from. Power gamers view, no HLA is an nice as greater whirl wind. And he more, the merrier.
Sorcerer certainly has its merits, but it just falls short on throughput. Spells only ever do more damage than melee if they hit a large number of enemies at once (Horrid Wilting), or of course if something is immune to physical damage (like Magic Swords). Outside of that, melee will always deliver more damage, and that's not even going into things like magic resistance or immunities to certain spell levels.
Kensai->Mage is in no way overrated. It remains the most consistent, most resilient, and most damaging class out there. The only ones who can compete are Thieves using backstabs/Spike Trap, and many mods (rightly) nerf these significantly. What part exactly is overrated about a max-APR arcane caster with significant damage bonuses, max-damage on demand, and nigh-indestructibility?
Speaking of APR: Greater Whirlwind is in fact the one that is quite overrated. The best HLA is Critical Strike by far; with the right setup, you will cap your (dual-wielding) melees at 10 APR under Improved Haste - which lasts longer than GWW, and doesn't take an activation. Critical Strike will deliver MASSIVE amounts of damage against anything not immune to crits, and even against those that are (like bosses), it will still guarantee a hit against any AC. I only ever use GWW on characters that are lacking in APR, and even there it's often worse than Critical Strike (8 or 9 APR is still plenty, when every hit crits/auto-hits).
I just never got into the kensai Mage. I always found the berserker> Mage better (maybe because of the immunities), and the fighter/Mage or /illusionist better than that.
The argument with a dual class character also always comes back to "what level do you dual class at" and the fact the character is significantly gimped when their first class is disabled. I know there are tricks around this, but I always found kicking every party member out to read some scrolls very cheesy, and the same for completing quests, but not collecting rewards until you're dualled over.
Please detail how you build your kensai>Mage. It might sway my mind.
fighter24/ilusionist20 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 3 ilusionist has lower amount of level 9 and 7 by 1 spell and lower mage level that count for damage in some spells etc. not that lower level spells are not good but levels 7 8 9 are more EPIC
but I - i would suggest fighter/ilusionist for newbies it is great fighting with mage buffs and all good stuff without ever dropping one class for dualing and waiting
Essentially, the key reason why K->M is so good is that it literally has no downside whatsoever, while having considerable upsides. Innate damage bonuses and Kai are just so much damage, it's far better than the alternative, i.e. Berserker->Mage. The immunities you get from Berserker Rage are almost irrelevant, given that you can immune yourself to virtually anything at will using mage/cleric spells.
Multiclass can possibly compete; however, it would require a proportionately smaller party to reach equivalent levels.
Also, this is a powergaming discussion; it being annoying to have to regain levels is not an argument that flies, really.
why are LICHES so powerfull my team combine has 2 mages and inquisitor +3rd mage similacrum and only with 3 mages and inquisitor i can dispell lich in 1 round true seeing - rubyray - pierce magic - breach what if someone was 1 mage only and no inquisitor?
If you're getting in bed with a fully cranked up SCS on Insane, you're taking into account certain requirements in regards to party composition. If you are unwilling to commit, play on different settings! It's as simple as that. Remember, this is a heavily modified version of the game - it's only natural that things go a little out of whack.
But what could a 6th possibly be? I realize of course that I don't NEED a full party by any stretch, but from a purely academical perspective I'd like to know if there is something missing. A big reason why I'm having trouble deciding, of course, is the fact that I wouldn't know what weapon to give them. The +APR ones are all taken, so dual-wielding loses a lot of its appeal. I could OH Crom Faeyr for 25 STR, but paired with what? Spectral Brand? Axe of the Unyielding? Nothing seems too appealing. And class-wise, what could I take? I'm worried I'm running out of proper equipment/scrolls for yet another arcane caster, I already have a thief and cleric... what, then, could I be missing?
Pure Kensai with a 2 hander, big damage and reach to hit from the second rank ... meh Load up on critical strike + kai or WW fwaBooooooooM!~ Or try a monk, well don't know about that ...
I suppose it would be a possibility, using Staff of the Ram. That weapon does deal a lot of damage and so often goes underused... It may be worth investigating that possibility, thanks!
kensai-druid for epic druidic spells? ranger13-cleric for normal druidic spells?
what about fioghter/cleric instead of barb->cleric? would barb cleric get to 10apr with improved haste? if not than fighter/cleric can use GWW for this and buff some more damage reduction from hla < not bad >
for weapon there is spear impaler that is +3 but adds +10 piercing dmg so it is like mini staff of ram (suhagin city treasure room near the king)
Fighter/Cleric suffers from low cleric levels. Fighters don't really gain a lot for their levels past 13, just a little HP (really just a LITTLE and some THAC0. Clerics on the other hand can poof even Liches later on with Turn Undead, not to mention that their spells continue to progress well into their 30s. Multiclass characters are best in smaller parties anyway, with a full complement I'm not sure I can afford them.
Clerics don't get to maximum APR because they can't use sharp weapons, and all the +APR offhands are. They can only get to 5 APR if they are part fighter and you are using the controversial +1 APR Grandmastery "fix" as well as the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. Even then, I think I'd rather give the gauntlets to my Inquisitor with Carsomyr.
I'm a bit torn on druids. They sure have some nice spells, but I just don't find them indispensable. Comparing druid-only vs. cleric-only spells, I just find clerics more useful in the type of games I usually play. Part of it is that my settings for SCS include Fire Shield protecting from insects, making it less useful against enemy mages (since they use FS a lot with SCS).
My general rule of thumb is that any character in my party has to be able to dish out strongly. That usually means fighter somewhere in there. Inquisitor is probably the weakest, because of the low APR (no GM, no dual-wield); I'm not sure I want to add another character like that in a Ranger/Cleric or Ranger->Cleric. I can't even switch around to make it dual-wield, because SNT can only be wielded effectively by rogues with UAI.
One possibility is another Thief->Fighter, likely Assassin->Fighter, dualed around some convenient backstab breakpoint. While BS is not very good with my mods, it still chunks many trash mobs and may end up saving some time. It would make Staff of the Ram all the more effective, too... Hmm...
this is kind of meh because 5 characters can do everything so whatever you are adding is going to be just another dps i would say
dualed cleric for more heals greater restoration etc. (second best caster after mages) full barb for max DR tank(tank lol) 2nd inquisitor for more dispelling<- this seems wrong because he is kind of weak when compared to everything else
OR my favorite greater werewolf/warrior for staff of ram imprpoved hasted 10 apr with critical HLA and lot of druid buffs
@Lord_Tansheron With respect to #3 Swashbuckler 24 -> Fighter: Foebane + Scarlet Ninja-to, why that over Kensai 13 -> Thief? UAI will nullify nearly all Kensai downsides and you'll get your first class's skills back (2.13 million XP vs 7.33 million XP total) a lot more quickly. The Swashbuckler's AC bonus is not particularly important when you get it back very late in the game. The differences in +Hit and +DMG between a Kensai 13 and a Swashbuckler 24 are negligible, aren't they? I can see that the transition period for three Kensai 13 -> X could be a lot more trouble though.
As for the occupant of the sixth slot. A dedicated de-buffing Sorcerer hurling Pierce Shields, summons, and what not one after another would free up your K/M team members to buff up and then concentrate solely on whacking away at enemies.
Very tempted to try your team next time through. Cheers.
But what could a 6th possibly be? I realize of course that I don't NEED a full party by any stretch, but from a purely academical perspective I'd like to know if there is something missing. A big reason why I'm having trouble deciding, of course, is the fact that I wouldn't know what weapon to give them. The +APR ones are all taken, so dual-wielding loses a lot of its appeal. I could OH Crom Faeyr for 25 STR, but paired with what? Spectral Brand? Axe of the Unyielding? Nothing seems too appealing. And class-wise, what could I take? I'm worried I'm running out of proper equipment/scrolls for yet another arcane caster, I already have a thief and cleric... what, then, could I be missing?
I don't like high level thieves, because their levels bring so little to the table. With high fighter levels, at least you get more fighter HLAs and also slightly more HP (which matters, given how much incidental magic damage is thrown around).
I also find UAI highly overrated. Armors are pretty irrelevant at higher levels, given how ridiculous enemy THAC0s are in ToB. Scrolls are in limited supply, and often eaten by my other mages instead of used (the useful ones anyway). The important wands can already be used by pretty much anyone. There's not really any class- or character-specific items that are worth using (that I'm not using on someone else already). Really, the ONLY reason I go for UAI (and the high dual) is for Scarlet Ninja-to.
In essence, my Sw->F dual is sort of a multiclass; it kicks in late, but it also gets more powerful in the end. I do admit that my setups tend to be ToB-heavy - perhaps that is not optimal. I just found that I had the most trouble with ToB fights, and not SoA ones. Ascension and Eclipse remain, to me, the most difficult battles in my game, and both are ToB.
That being said, I am still very much debating this very issue. The difference in damage output between a K->T and a Sw->F is not as significant as between other setups. The main difference are the HLAs and HP pools, really. Even the late regaining of levels is not as relevant as you may think, as you still end up with being a fighter for a long time - you do lose the thief with Sw->F, but on the other hand you also start SoA without one if you go the other route. In principle, I found that early SoA can actually be quite annoying with my setup, as you are quite vulnerable; whether a F or T will help more, though, that is difficult to say.
I should share something in that regard, that I am embarrassed to say has completely eluded me so far: the Club of Detonation+5 is an AMAZING weapon! Its random fireball aside, it does a LOT of damage; so much, in fact, that it is one of the highest damaging weapons in the game.
Angurvadal and Foebane are certainly up there as well, though - and, it seems, Crom Faeyr. 2d4+5+3 is quite a lot, actually!
The top spot of course remains with Flail of the Ages+5.
what? club of detonation +5 is only +3 damage +20% chance of +10 fire damage that is not not better crom is only 2d4+3 so this is kind of low only 25 str helps
angurvadal gives 22 str +weapon 1d8+5 damage +1 foebayne is pretty funny with life steal that stacks so you can have more than 100% life much more axe of unyelding is pretty op too it is the best regeneration item in the game 3life/round it is better than ring of kangaxx The Equalizer - heard it is pretty good for offhand because adds damage to main weapon
staff of ram 1d6 +12 , +1d4 Spear +3, Impaler 1d6+3 +10 so not bad
my team can wield all of these weapons but i need to change specialization because i have wakizashi and only 1* in long swords
Club of Detonation+5: 1d6+5, +5 fire, +30% chance for 15 fire, +5% chance of fireball
That is a LOT of damage. You were looking at the unupgraded version.
CF is actually 2d4+3, +5 electrical (apparently; mine isn't but that is supposedly due to mods).
How is Impaler better than SoR? 1d6+3+10 = 14-19 for Impaler, 1d6+12+1d4 = 14-22 for Staff of Ram. Not to mention Impaler is only +3, making it quite useless in ToB and 3 less for THAC0 in any case.
yeah i added damage wrong but still soa weapon vs tob weapon it is only 3 max damage lower and better than almost all of the weapons in soa including staff of ram+4
Yes, Impaler is a decent weapon. It's major drawback is that it's a spear, and there are pretty much no other spears worth having. Even Ixil is not very good.
If you have the proficiency points to spare, I guess you can use it. But otherwise...
Comments
maybe with 3 deathfogs that would work?
________________________________________
i will paste this again because we got sidetracked by lich that is more impossible than improved fire giants aka impossible fire giants
also i don't know if team with all partial mages would be better
if 1 dispell can ruin your protections from protections why even bother?
kensai/mage
cleric/ilusionist
fighter/ilusionist
thief/ilusionist
or
f/m/t
cleric/ilusionist or F/M/C
kensai/mage
ilusionist/fighter
something like that with immunity abjuration + spell shields + spell traps and other stuff can outlast every Lich
In addition, you can metagame around it. You only really NEED your buffs in very specific scenarios. At all other times its an augmentation, but not a requirement. Plan ahead and know what you have to maintain (like certain immunities, or damage protections) and what is optional.
I am no big friend of the F/M/T (outside of solo); there is little reason to have high thief levels. Also, pairing several multi-class characters essentially makes your party larger, meaning you will end up lower levels in all your classes at the end. This can be more detrimental than any advantage you'd get.
And why a cleric/mage? Seems fairly useless and weak. Clerics can melee, but rather poorly; certainly nothing compared to a fighter-dual.
You are right in that you probably want a substantial number of mages to deal with enemy protections. That is why I run with two Kensai->Mages, and an Inquisitor. It gives you access to all the tools, with redundancies and workarounds. Thieves are fairly useless in high-difficulty high-mod games because a lot of mobs are immune to backstab and/or traps (for obvious reasons).
It seems to me like you're trying to take on things too early. A big part of powergaming is knowing how to balance your relative power at various stages in the game. There is no solution that is ALWAYS the best at ANYTHING available (at least not in games of sufficient difficulty). You have to set yourself priorities. If that means saving certain Liches, or WK, until after the Underdark, then by all means... I find such compromise to be more effective than having a hard time later on in ToB, when there's one tough boss fight after the other and you suddenly find yourself lacking.
Don't get too hung up on flexibility. You don't need all the options all the time, not if you know what to expect, where to go, and how to react properly. It's an intuitive and understandable reaction to want to overload on multi-class just to have "that one spell" ready at that one moment; but in the end, you probably could have approached the problem differently, and more elegantly, without resorting to such diluting compositions.
I suppose it may be a personal bias, but I find that damage > all in this game. You can prevent a lot of grief by simply dishing out so much offensive power that the enemy is dead before they become dangerous. Trying to out-trick an AI that has been specifically scripted with a near infinite arsenal of specific counter-measures seems like the wrong approach. Better just muscle through it!
liches always dispells! ;D
yeah i probably got a little angry about those liches
________________________________
LICH
level 7 Warding Whip - omg this only dispells magic protection LOL
breach doesn't work = 5th level too low
funny thing
_without immunity abjuration_ dispells work! so with lucky mass dispell and inquisitor can do the job
contingency dispells
spell sequencer dispells
etc. just go for quantity over quality ; D
pierce magic from wands or scrolls can target improved invisible object and remove immunity abjuration than proceed with barrage of dispells
_____________________________________
Fixed by SCSII:
More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning)
Although it isn't documented, the 5th level spell Breach will remove a creature's combat protections (such as Stoneskin) even if that creature is protected by Spell Deflection, Spell Turning or Spell Trap; it will not, however, affect creatures like liches or rakshasas, because they are immune to spells of level 5 or below. This component removes both features: Breach now bounces off Spell Turning (etc.), but it affects even those creatures immune to "normal" 5th level spells.
http://www.gibberlings3.net/scsii/spell.php
______________
how can i see if i have this component installed?
"~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2010 // More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning): v21" from weidu.log
so for me i doesn't work
_________________
works fine
rubyray level 7(scroll) followed by pierce magic level 6 followed by breach level 5 with mods
than it is only who cast faster breach vs another PFMW and contingencies from lich with improved invisibility vs inquisitor with true seeing etc. but finally! The problem was something deflecting breaches with 10-20 lines of text spells from first contingency when Lich buffs.
this is kind of weird because wand of breach works vs improved invisibility and your memorized breach won't go off because he is invisible
The only battle I had trouble with was the one where the Lich has a bunch of other monsters spawn and attack you. Imprisonment was annoying as well, I had to use my berserker to draw fire.
I generally agree about melee guys being more effective than spellchuckers. I just think a well-planned sorcerer is a walking artillery. Nasty!
I also don't fall in love with dual classers. The kensai/Mage is so overrated it isn't even funny. And, speaking from. Power gamers view, no HLA is an nice as greater whirl wind. And he more, the merrier.
Kensai->Mage is in no way overrated. It remains the most consistent, most resilient, and most damaging class out there. The only ones who can compete are Thieves using backstabs/Spike Trap, and many mods (rightly) nerf these significantly. What part exactly is overrated about a max-APR arcane caster with significant damage bonuses, max-damage on demand, and nigh-indestructibility?
Speaking of APR: Greater Whirlwind is in fact the one that is quite overrated. The best HLA is Critical Strike by far; with the right setup, you will cap your (dual-wielding) melees at 10 APR under Improved Haste - which lasts longer than GWW, and doesn't take an activation. Critical Strike will deliver MASSIVE amounts of damage against anything not immune to crits, and even against those that are (like bosses), it will still guarantee a hit against any AC. I only ever use GWW on characters that are lacking in APR, and even there it's often worse than Critical Strike (8 or 9 APR is still plenty, when every hit crits/auto-hits).
The argument with a dual class character also always comes back to "what level do you dual class at" and the fact the character is significantly gimped when their first class is disabled. I know there are tricks around this, but I always found kicking every party member out to read some scrolls very cheesy, and the same for completing quests, but not collecting rewards until you're dualled over.
Please detail how you build your kensai>Mage. It might sway my mind.
but i agree that gimped class for those 14 levels of mage is plain annoying
spells on spell level kensai13/mage28
5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 4
kensai8/mage31
5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
fighter24/ilusionist20
6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 3
ilusionist has lower amount of level 9 and 7 by 1 spell and lower mage level that count for damage in some spells etc. not that lower level spells are not good but levels 7 8 9 are more EPIC
but I - i would suggest fighter/ilusionist for newbies it is great fighting with mage buffs and all good stuff without ever dropping one class for dualing and waiting
but II - this is not newbies thread
Multiclass can possibly compete; however, it would require a proportionately smaller party to reach equivalent levels.
Also, this is a powergaming discussion; it being annoying to have to regain levels is not an argument that flies, really.
LICH
why are LICHES so powerfull
my team combine has 2 mages and inquisitor +3rd mage similacrum
and only with 3 mages and inquisitor i can dispell lich in 1 round
true seeing - rubyray - pierce magic - breach
what if someone was 1 mage only and no inquisitor?
If you're getting in bed with a fully cranked up SCS on Insane, you're taking into account certain requirements in regards to party composition. If you are unwilling to commit, play on different settings! It's as simple as that. Remember, this is a heavily modified version of the game - it's only natural that things go a little out of whack.
Hehe ...
#1 Kensai 13 -> Mage: Flail of Ages + Belm
#2 Kensai 13 -> Mage: Angurvadal + Kundane
#3 Swashbuckler 24 -> Fighter: Foebane + Scarlet Ninja-to
#4 Inquisitor: Carsomyr
#5 Barbarian 15 -> Cleric: Stormstar + Defender of Easthaven
But what could a 6th possibly be? I realize of course that I don't NEED a full party by any stretch, but from a purely academical perspective I'd like to know if there is something missing. A big reason why I'm having trouble deciding, of course, is the fact that I wouldn't know what weapon to give them. The +APR ones are all taken, so dual-wielding loses a lot of its appeal. I could OH Crom Faeyr for 25 STR, but paired with what? Spectral Brand? Axe of the Unyielding? Nothing seems too appealing. And class-wise, what could I take? I'm worried I'm running out of proper equipment/scrolls for yet another arcane caster, I already have a thief and cleric... what, then, could I be missing?
Anyone got any ideas?
ranger13-cleric for normal druidic spells?
what about fioghter/cleric instead of barb->cleric? would barb cleric get to 10apr with improved haste? if not than fighter/cleric can use GWW for this and buff some more damage reduction from hla < not bad >
for weapon there is spear impaler that is +3 but adds +10 piercing dmg so it is like mini staff of ram (suhagin city treasure room near the king)
Clerics don't get to maximum APR because they can't use sharp weapons, and all the +APR offhands are. They can only get to 5 APR if they are part fighter and you are using the controversial +1 APR Grandmastery "fix" as well as the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. Even then, I think I'd rather give the gauntlets to my Inquisitor with Carsomyr.
I'm a bit torn on druids. They sure have some nice spells, but I just don't find them indispensable. Comparing druid-only vs. cleric-only spells, I just find clerics more useful in the type of games I usually play. Part of it is that my settings for SCS include Fire Shield protecting from insects, making it less useful against enemy mages (since they use FS a lot with SCS).
My general rule of thumb is that any character in my party has to be able to dish out strongly. That usually means fighter somewhere in there. Inquisitor is probably the weakest, because of the low APR (no GM, no dual-wield); I'm not sure I want to add another character like that in a Ranger/Cleric or Ranger->Cleric. I can't even switch around to make it dual-wield, because SNT can only be wielded effectively by rogues with UAI.
One possibility is another Thief->Fighter, likely Assassin->Fighter, dualed around some convenient backstab breakpoint. While BS is not very good with my mods, it still chunks many trash mobs and may end up saving some time. It would make Staff of the Ram all the more effective, too... Hmm...
i would say
dualed cleric for more heals greater restoration etc. (second best caster after mages)
full barb for max DR tank(tank lol)
2nd inquisitor for more dispelling<- this seems wrong because he is kind of weak when compared to everything else
OR
my favorite greater werewolf/warrior for staff of ram imprpoved hasted 10 apr with critical HLA and lot of druid buffs
@Lord_Tansheron
With respect to #3 Swashbuckler 24 -> Fighter: Foebane + Scarlet Ninja-to, why that over Kensai 13 -> Thief? UAI will nullify nearly all Kensai downsides and you'll get your first class's skills back (2.13 million XP vs 7.33 million XP total) a lot more quickly. The Swashbuckler's AC bonus is not particularly important when you get it back very late in the game. The differences in +Hit and +DMG between a Kensai 13 and a Swashbuckler 24 are negligible, aren't they? I can see that the transition period for three Kensai 13 -> X could be a lot more trouble though.
As for the occupant of the sixth slot. A dedicated de-buffing Sorcerer hurling Pierce Shields, summons, and what not one after another would free up your K/M team members to buff up and then concentrate solely on whacking away at enemies.
Very tempted to try your team next time through. Cheers.
I also find UAI highly overrated. Armors are pretty irrelevant at higher levels, given how ridiculous enemy THAC0s are in ToB. Scrolls are in limited supply, and often eaten by my other mages instead of used (the useful ones anyway). The important wands can already be used by pretty much anyone. There's not really any class- or character-specific items that are worth using (that I'm not using on someone else already). Really, the ONLY reason I go for UAI (and the high dual) is for Scarlet Ninja-to.
In essence, my Sw->F dual is sort of a multiclass; it kicks in late, but it also gets more powerful in the end. I do admit that my setups tend to be ToB-heavy - perhaps that is not optimal. I just found that I had the most trouble with ToB fights, and not SoA ones. Ascension and Eclipse remain, to me, the most difficult battles in my game, and both are ToB.
That being said, I am still very much debating this very issue. The difference in damage output between a K->T and a Sw->F is not as significant as between other setups. The main difference are the HLAs and HP pools, really. Even the late regaining of levels is not as relevant as you may think, as you still end up with being a fighter for a long time - you do lose the thief with Sw->F, but on the other hand you also start SoA without one if you go the other route. In principle, I found that early SoA can actually be quite annoying with my setup, as you are quite vulnerable; whether a F or T will help more, though, that is difficult to say.
Certainly more testing is needed!
Angurvadal and Foebane are certainly up there as well, though - and, it seems, Crom Faeyr. 2d4+5+3 is quite a lot, actually!
The top spot of course remains with Flail of the Ages+5.
crom is only 2d4+3 so this is kind of low only 25 str helps
angurvadal gives 22 str +weapon 1d8+5 damage +1
foebayne is pretty funny with life steal that stacks so you can have more than 100% life much more
axe of unyelding is pretty op too it is the best regeneration item in the game 3life/round it is better than ring of kangaxx
The Equalizer - heard it is pretty good for offhand because adds damage to main weapon
staff of ram 1d6 +12 , +1d4
Spear +3, Impaler 1d6+3 +10 so not bad
my team can wield all of these weapons but i need to change specialization because i have wakizashi and only 1* in long swords
That is a LOT of damage. You were looking at the unupgraded version.
CF is actually 2d4+3, +5 electrical (apparently; mine isn't but that is supposedly due to mods).
How is Impaler better than SoR? 1d6+3+10 = 14-19 for Impaler, 1d6+12+1d4 = 14-22 for Staff of Ram. Not to mention Impaler is only +3, making it quite useless in ToB and 3 less for THAC0 in any case.
If you have the proficiency points to spare, I guess you can use it. But otherwise...
f/m/c for clubs/staff of ram/ more str buffs and more little spells
LOL