Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Axis & Allies 1942 Online is now available in Early Access! Buy it on Steam. The FAQ is available.
New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

powergaming party (BG2 TOB,NPC and multiplayer)

13468926

Comments

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    i think this is very good point

    is powergaming
    -the best late game build with possible the most damage
    or
    -the most convenient entire game which would be more towards multiclass/early dual class

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    I don't think the final battle is so difficult you'd have to concentrate solely on that.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    The question of multi vs. dual depends on the individual game setups. If your party size, class composition, and available total XP allow for sufficiently high multi-class characters, then it can easily be the correct choice. If not, then dual-class is better. The exception would be compositions that you make specifically for their kit-benefit (barbarian comes to mind, as it's essentially a fighter kit, also berserker, swashbuckler, and kensai to some extent), in which case the higher vanilla-class level would have to be weighed against those benefits.

    As for the definition of "powergaming", there isn't a clear one. You obviously try to maximize your power at every stage of the game, but it's pretty clear that it's not possibly to find a combination that does this at EVERY stage. Trade-offs have to be made, but from a powergaming perspective, it's arguable that you will want to maximize power for the most difficult party of the game - most of which tend to be towards the end of BG2 and/or ToB.

    There's some exceptions, of course. Improved Tor'Gal and Improved Illyich come to mind, and are arguably harder (at that point) than some of the late-game fights. There's also some encounters with no clear timeline (like Kangaxx). As you see, this also depends on what your game offers you. I can only speak towards a specific selection of mods that I have personally played; I find the hardest fights offered to me to be Improved Irenicus (Tactics Mod), Amelyssan (Ascension Mod), Melanthium (Planar Sphere Mod), Lunar Eclipse (Solaufein Mod), and Improved Kangaxx (Tactics); many are also enhanced by changes done through SCSII. Your mileage may vary, though; if you play with a different set of mods, your priorities may be entirely different - and consequently, the optimal way to "powergame" might be different as well.

    As for the fighter vs. mage issue, though: it's not just a matter of convenience. Melee attacks simply do much, much more DPS than spells. Not just because spells have to recharge, but also because spells have a cast time, and are often not very efficient against certain types of enemies. The best damage you can do with magic is against several enemies at once, where it actually beats melee attacks in efficiency. Single-target however, it's just not comparable. Ranged attacks, too, are inherently limited; ranged APR doesn't go very high save for with a few specific weapons (like Tuigan Bow), and arrows are capped at +3 enchantment.

    Wolk
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    there is youtube link where solo mage kills improved illych on insane so there are possibilities

    but most important is this "As for the definition of "powergaming", there isn't a clear one." so someone can say this and other say that and there is really no good answer

    i think we all know few things about baldur's gate that new player don't know

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    zur312 said:

    there is youtube link where solo mage kills improved illych on insane so there are possibilities

    I'm not sure what you mean by that. You can solo the game on insane with many of the most difficult mods with nearly any class. It's been done before, and will be done again. But that's an arbitrary limitation, much in the spirit of "no-relod", or "75-roll", or whatever. While that is certainly an extreme test of skills, knowledge, and patience, it's not what is traditionally meant by "powergaming". Powergaming, in general, refers to maximizing all potentials in order to achieve the greatest degree of efficiency. Soloing is pretty much disqualified by definition.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    i mean that you said improved illych is difficult but there is someone soloing it with 8 level mage so difficulty is only a matter of player

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    ... obviously?

    People have climbed Mount Everest without the use of oxygen. Would you say that climbing Mount Everest isn't difficult, then?

    Difficult doesn't mean impossible, not even under extreme circumstances. And in the end, this is a VIDEO GAME, not neurosurgery; it's only going to be so difficult.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited May 2013
    I will do a silent let's play of baldur's gate 2 tactics/scsii mods for powergaming purpose and testing

    Would you more enjoy a raw footage of me getting killed 10 times by some bosses or eddited footage with only one good run when i get everything right and win a battle?

    Also other things i should or should not do?
    also would you mind cutting boring part like shopping/runing back running in town from place X to Y?
    the ironman or something option is not possible i will die.

    Post edited by zur312 on
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    If you have the HDD space, might as well include everything.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358

    If you have the HDD space, might as well include everything.

    space is not a problem
    the problem will be dying like mad ;D

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Raw video will quickly eat TBs if you're running for hours on end.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358

    Raw video will quickly eat TBs if you're running for hours on end.

    that is true but i will run out of time before my disc space so yeah

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Well, I guess that's all good.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited May 2013
    Kensai13/Mage -
    flail of ages + long sword

    wizard slayer13/Thief
    celestial fury + short sword

    wizard slayer13/Mage
    scimitars + axes

    berserker13/cleric -
    mace of disruption + club? dunno mace of disruption is only +2 so what?

    inquisitor
    2hand sword + bastard sword

    hapeshifter14/fighter
    staff of ram

    is it good enough split of weapons?
    also crom? that 25 str would be really usefull on something

    Post edited by zur312 on
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    edited May 2013
    Thief should definitely be using Scarlet Ninja-to. That leaves one of the other +APR weapons to be paired with FoA. Dual-wield isn't terribly effective without a +APR offhand, so you absolutely want to use as many of them as possible.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358

    Thief should definitely be using Scarlet Ninja-to. That leaves one of the other +APR weapons to be paired with FoA. Dual-wield isn't terribly effective without a +APR offhand, so you absolutely want to use as many of them as possible.

    yeah i will be using all of it but am i missing some usefull weapns?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    The best weapons in the game are, in approximate order of power:

    Main Hand/Two-Hand:

    Flail of Ages+5
    Staff of the Ram+6
    Axe of the Unyielding+5
    Carsomyr+6
    Foebane+5
    Angurvadal+5
    Spectral Brand+5
    Runehammer+5
    Short Sword of Mask+5
    Celestial Fury
    Blackrazor

    Off-Hand:

    Scarlet Ninja-to+3
    Belm+2
    Kundane+2
    Defender of Easthaven+3
    The Answerer+4
    The Equalizer+3
    Dak'kon's Zerth Blade
    Crom Faeyr

    Special Mention:

    Staff of the Magi



    Bear in mind that there is a fairly limited selection of highly enchanted weapons in the game; as such, nearly every +5 MH makes the shortlist. The top few in each list however are indeed VERY good, and in many parties you'll be perfectly fine with not going further down anyway. On that note, Celestial Fury is astonishingly low on the list, despite being a very, very powerful weapon - the reason is, of course, that in ToB there are many bosses that simply cannot be hit by a +3 weapon, making CF fairly useless. It remains the arguably most powerful weapon for SoA, though.

    A note: Crom Faeyr is vastly overrated. Given how good sharp weapons are, usually it will be clerics that end up with the blunt ones - and they have DuHM, which gives them 25 STR already. That would make Crom Faeyr better suited as an offhand for someone with lower STR, but most of the time your offhand will be an APR weapon instead, which gives you more damage. In many setups it is beneficial to not in fact assemble Crom Faeyr and instead make use of the component items instead (the belt in particular).

    Ranged weapons in general seem to be quite bad, with honorable mentions going to Fire Tooth+3 (= the dagger), Firetooth+5 (= the crossbow) and Tuigan Bow+1, which are basically the only ranged weapons worth using, and usually only under specific circumstances.

    Same goes for shields. Enemy THAC0s become quite ridiculous later on, making AC less relevant. For special effects Shield of Balduran of course is considered the best, and borderline cheesy by some. Many mods try to address its power in some way, and rightly so. I usually prefer Defender of Easthaven+3 instead of a shield, because it will prevent more damage in the long run.

    Also keep in mind that APR > all when it comes to damage output. You absolutely and most definitely want to maximize APR by any means necessary. You can reach 5 APR (the maximum) with +APR items only, and afaik only when dual-wielding (or abusing shapeshift bugs). Note that Improved Haste gets around the hard-cap of 5 APR by effectively halving the time of a round (yes that's how it works, you have two rounds in the time others have one, resulting in a displayed 10 APR if you are at maximum). Improved Haste is vastly superior to Greater Whirlwind, and can be so even without max APR (for a two-handed character for example) due to not wasting an action activating/a HLA slot (Critical Strike is usually better).

    Kloroxbiggestboss
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited May 2013
    zur312 said:

    Kensai13/Mage -
    flail of ages + long sword

    wizard slayer13/Thief
    celestial fury + short sword

    wizard slayer13/Mage
    scimitars + axes

    berserker13/cleric -
    mace of disruption + club? dunno mace of disruption is only +2 so what?

    inquisitor
    2hand sword + bastard sword

    hapeshifter14/fighter
    staff of ram

    is it good enough split of weapons?
    also crom? that 25 str would be really usefull on something

    OK
    now i am in chapter 2 with my team and can share some things how game feels

    antimage overkill:
    i think i made a mistake with 2 wizard slayers and inquisitor those are 3 antimage characters why i did that? such an overkill

    no mage early game:
    it is not really powergaming when im just running around without mage or cleric spells (druid is cool but he is not mage)
    something like fighter/ilusionist gnome switch for wizard slayer/mage or something

    berserker cleric:
    now that i know druidic spells are really usefull with summoning dryads and insect plague level 5 i could use insted of berserker cleric a similar character rangerX/cleric with buffs of cleric and specialization he is really tanky+ druid spells

    but even with flaws everything is going really fast

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    i am starting to question level 13 dualing
    thief exp
    8 70000 8
    9 110000 9
    10 160000 9+2
    11 220000 9+4
    12 440000 9+6
    13 660000 9+8
    14 880000 9+10

    wiz exp
    8 90000 8
    9 135000 9
    10 250000 9+1
    11 375000 9+2
    12 750000 9+3
    13 1125000 9+4
    14 1500000 9+5

    thief
    the math is so beautiful 880000-70000=810000 exp difference dualing 7 and 13 that is not fast if i remember correctly 6 man party achieve 2,7kk exp in soa so 810000 is big chunk of this

    wiz
    1500000-90000=1410000 this is 50% soa exp per character so 50% soa without first class

    maybe with many stacked quests rewards massive scroll scribing but yeah 50% of the game

    dualing from 7 is perfectly fine you miss this 1/2 apr and some hp some ***** are lower but the game must feel much easier

    oh and i think wild mage can be a power gamer character just give gim 18 wis and buy wish when he is level 7
    cast wish from level 7 mage without similacrum and other "stuff"

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    The price you pay at the early game is well worth the benefits of an extra 1/2 APR (and some extra THAC0 and HP) for your fighter duals. This is powergaming after all - naturally you stack quest rewards, certain areas, and scroll scribing accordingly.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    I don't think there was a consensus powergaming means best possible end-game build.

    zur312Klorox
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited May 2013

    The price you pay at the early game is well worth the benefits of an extra 1/2 APR (and some extra THAC0 and HP) for your fighter duals. This is powergaming after all - naturally you stack quest rewards, certain areas, and scroll scribing accordingly.

    i get it but stacking 50% of exp i would not say "early game"

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    edited May 2013
    Keep in mind that while SoA had an exp cap as you mentioned, in most modded games you will have a LOT more exp available than the mere cap. That means you don't actually need to go for 50% of all available exp, not even close. Not to mention there's Watcher's Keep, too, which is a treasure trove of exp.

    And while it's true that powergaming doesn't mean endgame only, it is late SoA and ToB that have the most challenging fights. I can't recall many fights earlier than that being particularly difficult - with the possible exception of Tactics' Improved Tor'Gall/Improved Faldorn (and Illyich, of course). I don't think that these few instances are worth the sacrifice of an earlier dual.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    but there is if in powergaming desciption
    if powergaming = best possible end game than higher duals are better and there is no question
    if powergaming = easiest way to play than low duals and multiclassing is easier with same power level

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    You can't make a unifying definition like that, because the circumstances it's applied on are vastly different from case to case. The parameters that define individual games (such as mod/difficulty selection, party size, and others) simply change too many variables.

    Also, what people find "difficult" varies; personally, I have no trouble with anything in SoA until Irenicus in Hell, with the exception of CC spells at the early game (before you have a lot of protections), e.g. when failing saves on Hold Person easily wipes the entire party. Other people may not find that too challenging, but have problems with other parts of the game instead.

    Objectively, there are a few factors you can measure, though; namely survivability, and damage output of your characters. And in terms of these factors, you should rarely, if ever, dual fighters at any level other than 13.

    Of course, the old dual vs. multi caveat still applies; the decision is contingent on the aforementioned factors, and has to be made individually on a case by case basis. There is no "absolute" statement or solution you can adhere to.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited May 2013
    you can be right and i just made poor party with these weird duals


    and i just checked
    dualing vs multi specialization

    2stars in main hand weapon and no stars in offhand apr weapon=
    5stars in main and 5 stars in offhand apr weapon=
    no difference in apr

    so dualing is not really that stronger in apr(without checking the damage and stuff)

    either way the subject of my playtest "are wizard slayers bad?" got overwhelmed by my poor use of dualclasses

    i think i should just go with
    inquisitor
    fighter/ilusionist
    multi ranger/cleric
    wizard slayer7/mage
    wizard slayer7/mage

    and test "are wizard slayers bad?" rather than "am i good at powergaming partys?"

    Post edited by zur312 on
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    edited May 2013
    While OH specialization points are fairly irrelevant for APR (you can only have a maximum of 1 OH APR), I'm pretty sure that Grandmastery (5*) in the MH weapon should yield more APR than Specialization (2*). How many more depends on the interpretation of "true" Grandmastery; opinions are divided on that.

    The reason you dual at 13 is not because of proficiency points, though. It's because fighter-type characters receive an innate +1/2 APR at lvl 13, on top of everything else they get from weapon proficiency.

    Also, the reason you dual-wield is because of the +APR offhand weapons. This extra attack will always be a MAIN hand attack, and will add more damage than any other sort of weapon style/weapon combination.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    grandmastery should but did not get me apr i didn't mod that

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,092
    I think it was bugged in the original release and did not add the APR it should. Mods are there that fix it, but there's several different solutions, ranging from +1/2 APR to +1 APR. I'm not entirely certain which one is the most "accurate" but I think I remember it being the +1/2 APR one... it's a hotly debated topic, though, with quite some controversy.

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    edited May 2013
    Grandmastery in vanilla BG2 still keeps you with the +1/2 APR of Specialisation,
    Grandmastery in modded BG2 gives you an extra +1 APR *on top of* the +1/2 of Specialisation, for +3/2 attacks total.
    Grandmastery in BGEE gives you an extra +1/2 APR on top of Specialisation, for a total of +1 APR.

Sign In or Register to comment.